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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Apr 1979

Vol. 313 No. 7

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Payment of Social Welfare Benefits.

2.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the arrangements he is making for the distribution of social welfare pension books which will be needed by pensioners for the first week in April; if he will give details of the number of pensioners involved; if he will give an assurance that there will be no interruption in the payment of pensions; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

3.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare if, in view of the current postal dispute, he will make a statement setting out the arrangements which he has made with the St. Vincent de Paul Society for the payment of social welfare benefits, including details of the number of offices being made available by the society; the method of payment; the security measures involved; and the steps taken to inform local members of the society and beneficiaries of the arrangements.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 and 3 together.

I am glad to have this opportunity of making a statement to the House about this matter of great concern to all of us.

Because of the interruption of postal services it has not been possible to distribute to old age and other pensioners the new pension books payable from Thursday and Friday of this week. Ordinarily these books would have been distributed during the last few weeks to the various post offices throughout the country for collection by the pensioners when they received their last payment on the old books last week.

I accordingly made alternative arrangements for paying the pensions in question which I announced in radio and television broadcasts on Monday, 26 March. In brief, these arrangements are that in the case of a person who normally gets payment at a post office which has remainded open the pensioner will bring the stub of his old book to that post office and will be paid at the rate shown in the book for the time being. Where the person normally went for payment to a post office which is closed, the pensioner will bring his book to the local centre of the St. Vincent de Paul Society and will be paid in the same way. The money for the payments to be made by the society, together with any expenses incurred by the society in the administration of these arrangements, will be provided from the funds of my Department.

A preliminary announcement regarding payments by the St. Vincent de Paul Society was made in all the daily newspapers on Wednesday 28 March. Details of the centres at which payment will be made were given in last Sunday's newspapers. The exact location and the times of operation of each centre will be published locally. Payment will be made in all cases by cheques drawn on the society's account in their banks in Dublin. Adequate security arrangements have been made by the society.

In regard to the society's part in these arrangements, I should like to reiterate what I said in my broadcasts and make it absolutely clear that the situation is that we have asked the St. Vincent de Paul Society to place their offices and their personnel at our disposal to make these payments on our behalf and they have very generously agreed to do this. However, they will be paying out the benefit which people are fully entitled to and no one should feel inhibited in any way from availing of this method of payment so kindly being provided by the society.

I regret that it will not be possible to pay pensions at the increased rates announced in the budget for the time being. These rates were due to come into operation this week. The balance due, however, will be paid as soon as this becomes possible.

In my broadcast I also asked health boards and community welfare officers to do everything possible to ensure that nobody suffers any hardship as a result of the present situation and I have told them to be as flexible as possible in meeting any difficulties which may arise. I appealed to all the voluntary organisations throughout the country to undertake a special campaign of vigilance of old people in their areas during the next few weeks and that they should make sure that all those concerned, and especially people living alone, are made aware of the arrangements which will operate for the duration of the postal dispute.

The total number of new books to be issued is about 375,000 while the total number of recipients of pensions and allowances is about 326,000. The difference is accounted for by the fact that in a sizeable number of cases pensioners receive two books. This occurs particularly in the case of those in receipt of living alone allowances. I should also mention that the payments to recipients include increases in respect of some 46,000 adult dependants, about 65,000 child dependants and about 3,800 prescribed relatives.

It is estimated that more than 200,000 pensioners will continue to receive payment of pension at post offices which have remained open. The remainder, that is, approximately 100,000 pensioners, will be catered for by the arrangements made by the St. Vincent de Paul Society.

Is it not true that in the case of children's allowances, some books have been distributed to post offices? If so, why were old age pensioners not given priority?

The children's allowance books had gone out before the strike commenced.

How is it that everybody has not received the children's allowance books?

Some of them are locked into post offices.

Would it not have been reasonable for the Department to have anticipated the strike——

To anticipate the strike?

Would it not have been better to have sent out old age pension books first?

The Deputy will appreciate that the books had to be printed in accordance with the changes made in the budget and subsequently enacted by this House. Therefore, the books could not have been sent out earlier. By the time the books were ready to be sent out the postal services had been disrupted. I regret very much the difficulties and hardships caused, but in so far as it lies within our power in the Department we are making every effort to ensure that hardships will be minimised.

Apart from old age pensioners would the Minister like to give advice to the people depending on children's allowances who have not received their books.

Children's allowances are a different matter. They are monthly payments and most of the people concerned have got their books. About 120,000 have not been delivered because of the disruption of the postal services. Unfortunately I cannot do anything about it up to the present, but I should like to avail of this opportunity to say that the new rates will be paid on the books which have been delivered even though the books show the old rates. In each post office a prominent notice will indicate what the new rates are.

I am sure the Minister knows that the only income of many women is the children's allowances and that accordingly many of them have not had any income this month. Will the Minister give urgent consideration to the possibility of making some provision for those who have not received their children's allowance books and will he come before the House to make a statement on the matter?

At the moment I cannot say any more than I have said.

We should all like to place on the records of the House our appreciation of the St. Vincent de Paul Society for participating in the arrangements. Can the Minister assure the House that there are sufficient local offices of the society operating so as to ensure that all of the 126,000 people who cannot avail of post office openings will be served?

I hope so. Only 100,000 pensioners will be having access to the St. Vincent de Paul offices and I am fairly confident that everybody will be catered for. However, I appreciate the Deputy's anxiety and I am glad to avail of this opportunity to reiterate my appeal to voluntary organisations in particular to be as active as possible during the next few weeks, first, to ensure that all pensioners are made aware of these arrangements and, secondly, to help out in making arrangements whereby the pension can be paid to those people who are not in a position to travel to the society's offices.

Has the Minister not considered issuing details to the St. Vincent de Paul Society of the new rates of payment so that the cheques they issue might be at the increased rates and bearing in mind that the unfortunate pensioners are in need of these increases?

We thought of that in the Department but on balance, because of the confused situation and the fact that some pensioners will be going to post offices and others to offices of the society, we decided that the most simple and most straight-forward way to proceed was for payment to be made at existing rates and to pay the difference to the pensioners later. I am hoping with some confidence that throughout the community shopkeepers and others will help out old age pensioners by affording them credit or other facilities until the situation is rectified.

I am sure that is happening and the people concerned are to be congratulated but would the Minister not consider the possibility of making available the increased payments to the St. Vincent de Paul Society or, alternatively, of requesting the health boards to be more liberal in their implementation of the supplementary welfare allowances? If the House accepts that the increased payments are needed surely every effort should be made to make these payments available to the people concerned.

I will consider the situation further but I have asked the health boards already to be generous and flexible in their approach. The Deputy may be right in suggesting that perhaps the best reserve defence mechanism at our disposal is the system of supplementary welfare allowances.

Would the Minister enlighten the House on the details of the arrangements? Are the Department making funds available to the St. Vincent de Paul Society?

Is the money being advanced from society accounts on foot of a State guarantee?

The St. Vincent de Paul Society are making their own arrangements on the basis that we will refund them whatever expenditure is involved.

I should not think that they will have at their disposal funds to the extent that will be required for this purpose.

They are satisfied that they can cope with the situation.

I congratulate the Minister and the St. Vincent de Paul Society on reaching these arrangements but what consideration would be given to a person from, say, the Church of Ireland, who might have some inhibitions about approaching the society?

I should hope they would not have any such inhibitions.

But it is a fair question.

Will the Minister give it consideration?

Would the supplementary welfare allowance apply to recipients here of pensions from Great Britain?

Are the Department monitoring the effectiveness or otherwise of this operation?

Is the Minister satisfied that it is working effectively?

The operation is only beginning at the end of this week.

So that the Department are only beginning to monitor it.

The paying out only begins at the end of this week.

Regarding the question raised by Deputy White is it the position that British welfare payment books are not utilisable in the same way as are Irish pension books that have expired?

That is not so. These books will be honoured by the St. Vincent de Paul Society in the same way as our books will be honoured.

In other words, the expired books may be used.

Yes, but if Deputies know of any problems arising I should be glad to have details of them.

The position up to now is that these British books have not been treated in the same way as Irish pension books.

The operation is only beginning at the end of this week.

I have called Question No. 4.

Would the Minister be prepared to make some arrangements, too, for payment of children's allowances where the new books have not been received?

Perhaps we should wait a while in that regard.

The Minister must be aware that in some disadvantaged areas in this city people depend greatly on children's allowances but they find that the old books are not being accepted.

That question has been raised already.

I shall consider this question if there is not an improvement soon in the situation.

What has the Minister in mind when he uses the word "soon"?

I should hope that the postal services would be resumed soon.

As in the case of the old age pension books, would the Minister consider directing the sub-post offices to pay out on foot of the old children's allowance books until the new ones are available? As the old books must be surrendered before the new ones are issued there would not be any question of fraud involved.

I shall keep the situation under review.

I am calling Question No. 4.

Have arrangements been made for giving priority of post in respect of pension books as soon as the strike is over?

I have assurances from the Post Office people in that regard.

It is a poor state of affairs when even the Government must go to the St. Vincent de Paul Society.

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