I move "that Deputy Harte be suspended from the service of the Dáil."
Suspension of Member.
What the Taoiseach is trying to do is obey the ruling.
On a point of order——
I rose on the Order of Business.
Deputy Harte has been named.
(Interruptions.)
Order, please.
On a point of order, before the Chair proceeds I want to make it clear that the Chair did not ask the Taoiseach or anyone else to name Deputy Harte. The Taoiseach is trying to use this device to avoid answering legitimate questions in the House. The Chair should not allow himself to be used in such a fashion by the Taoiseach.
Deputy Cluskey will please resume his seat. Deputies seem to think that they have a licence to carry on in a disorderly fashion on the Order of Business.
We have the right to ask legitimate questions.
I said that if Deputy Harte did not resume his seat I would ask him to be named. He has refused to resume his seat and the Taoiseach has named him.
You are protecting the Taoiseach.
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 45; Níl, 18.
Tá
- Ahern, Kit.
- Andrews, David.
- Andrews, Niall.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, Seán.
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Callanan, John.
- Cogan, Barry.
- Colley, George.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Conaghan, Hugh.
- Cronin, Jerry.
- Daly, Brendan.
- de Valera, Vivion.
- Farrell, Joe.
- Faulkner, Pádraig.
- Filgate, Eddie.
- Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Dublin South-Central).
- Fox, Christopher J.
- French, Seán.
- Gallagher, Dennis.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Sylvester.
- Brady, Gerard.
- Haughey, Charles J.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kenneally, William.
- Killeen, Tim.
- Lalor, Patrick J.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Lemass, Eileen.
- Leonard, Tom.
- Lynch, Jack.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- Moore, Seán.
- Morley, P.J.
- O'Connor, Timothy C.
- O'Donoghue, Martin.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Kennedy, Michael.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Walsh, Seán.
- Wilson, John P.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Níl
- Barry, Peter.
- Barry, Richard.
- Begley, Michael.
- Belton, Luke.
- Bermingham, Joseph.
- Bruton, John.
- Cluskey, Frank.
- Collins, Edward.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Deasy, Martin A.
- Desmond, Barry.
- Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Cavan-Monaghan).
- Griffin, Brendan.
- Hegarty, Paddy.
- Kelly, John.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- O'Leary, Michael.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Lalor and Briscoe; Níl, Deputies Begley and B. Desmond.
Question declared carried.
Deputy Harte is suspended from the service of the House.
May I ask a Cheann Comhairle——
The Deputy must leave immediately without any question whatever.
May I ask for how long?
The usual three sitting days.
The Government did not know anything about the matter I raised and still do not know anything about it. It is embarrassing for me to be asking so many questions and I will leave in deference to the Chair.
Deputy Harte withdrew from the Chamber.
In view of the fact that we are now members of the EMS, that our membership of the EMS has led to a break between the punt and sterling——
That is not a question to be raised on the Order of Business.
It is in connection with the Order of Business. Will the Taoiseach inform the House as to the precise conditions under which we joined the EMS?
The Deputy is aware that this question does not arise.
Will the Taoiseach tell the House what loans we got by way of bilateral arrangement, the conditions attached to those loans and whether they were loans or grants.
The Deputy is seeking to be disorderly and should resume his seat.
I do not wish to come into conflict with the Chair.
The Deputy is well aware that matters of this kind must be raised by way of Special Notice Question.
It is legitimate to raise these issues on the Order of Business.
It is not in order and I am moving to the first item.
Surely I am entitled to an answer? This is a disgraceful evasion of responsibility by the Taoiseach and the Government. They are undermining democracy here.
The Deputy should refrain from being disorderly.
Chair.
The Taoiseach, and the Government, must answer to this House under the democratic process. We are entitled to answers by the Taoiseach.
(Interruptions.)
If the Deputy does not resume his seat I will ask the Taoiseach to name him.
If the only answer the Taoiseach, and the Government, have for the problems facing the country is to name every Member who wishes to solicit legitimate information, let them carry on that process.
The Deputy should resume his seat.
I insist on getting answers to legitimate questions. I am not going to evade my responsibility in this House and I refuse to co-operate and enter into a conspiracy with the Government to deprive the Irish people of their legitimate right to answers.
If Deputies are of opinion that they can ask any question they think of on the Order of Business we will have to have other thinking about this matter in the House. This is becoming a practice which is possibly growing out of the Chair being rather lenient in permitting questions.
Even the Chair does not believe that. There are long-established precedents for legitimate questions to be asked on the Order of Business, such as the one I raised.
The Deputy must resume his seat.
The Taoiseach is using every possible Parliamentary device—— particularly over the last four months—within and outside Standing Orders, to evade answering questions. I demand, as is my right, that the Chair insist that the Taoiseach answer my question as to the conditions under which we joined the EMS, if we secured loans or grants and the conditions appertaining to those loans.
I am moving on to Item No. 5.
I understood that the Taoiseach said he would not consider our request for a debate on Friday unless agreement was reached about the business on the Order Paper. That business does not have anything to do with the special debate on Friday which was arranged between the Whips last week. Will the Taoiseach permit the debate I asked for on Friday, regardless of the Business of the House?
I am prepared to be reasonable if I am met in a reasonable fashion but there has not been a reasonable approach by Deputies opposite.
Excuses.
Deputies opposite say that no matter what happens they are not going to agree to give the Government any of the business the Government want before the Easter Recess; they want to insist on getting what they want. I should like to remind them that this still is the Government and we are entitled to order the business.
The Government should govern.
The Government should govern for a change.
Govern or get out.
(Cavan-Monaghan): Our proposal is that the business arranged on the Order Paper for today and tomorrow should proceed in the ordinary way.
The Deputy should resume his seat. We cannot have a discussion on this matter now. This is a debate. The Deputy should observe the orderly rules of the House out of respect.
(Cavan-Monaghan): There was a difference between the attitude of the Chair to Deputy Harte and that adopted in relation to Deputy Cluskey.
The Chair did not have the guts to name Deputy Cluskey; chicken.
The Whips are aware that before lunch we may complete all stages of the AnCOT Bill, the Local Government (Toll Roads) Bill, and the Housing (Gaeltacht) (Amendment) Bill. I am sure the Taoiseach is also aware that all stages of those Bills will be put through today or, certainly, tomorrow. In that context there is no good reason why a separate debate cannot be arranged on the EMS.
I did not get any such assurance from the Whips.
We are at the tailend of all stages of those Bills.
In order to clarify the situation as far as the Labour Party are concerned, I should like to state that we are prepared to sit on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, or any day of the week, but we are not prepared to allow legislation to be steamrolled through this House.
All four of you?
We are prepared to sit any day to get answers to legitimate questions on behalf of the Irish people.
(Interruptions.)
(Cavan-Monaghan): I cannot understand why the Chair told me to sit down and then permitted Deputy Desmond to say exactly what I was saying. There is neither head nor tail to this.
Unfortunately, the Chair does not know what a Deputy is about to say when he rises on the pretence of raising a point of order.
(Cavan-Monaghan): I was saying the same as Deputy Desmond was permitted to say but I was told to sit down.
Did the Taoiseach say that the House might sit on Friday?
We have finished the discussion on whether the House should sit on Friday. There are other means by which this can be arranged. I am calling Item No. 5.
Under what terms are we now members of the EMS?
On a point of order, I should like to ask the Chair if it is a new procedure that a Deputy is named by the senior Minister present without being asked to do so by the Chair?
That could not be taken as a point of order.
When Deputy Harte was voted on ten minutes ago you did not ask the senior Minister present to name him.
I did.
You did not.
You did not. Let the record show. You protected the Taoiseach.
You said to Deputy Harte unless he resumed his seat you would ask him to leave the House. You did not actually ask him to be named.
I think I made it clear.
You did not. You did not ask that he be named. The record of the House will show this.
(Interruptions.)
Can we take it by the continued silence of the Taoiseach that he is not prepared to inform the country under what conditions we are now members of the EMS?
(Cavan-Monaghan): He does not know.
(Interruptions.)
I am calling item No. 5.
It was during the last Dáil that the Order of Business every day was turned into a dog's breakfast. It was Deputy Lynch and his colleagues who started this Order of Business debacle. Up to 15 minutes every day was spent on this. Business was not allowed continue while this was going on. They are lolling in deck chairs compared with the Government I worked for.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order, the question raised by Deputy Barry has not been answered.
That is not a point of order. Will the Deputy resume his seat?
I want to raise a point of order in this House and I am entitled to do so. The Taoiseach, without any request from you, named a Deputy in the House. Is that a new precedent?
That is not correct. Will the Deputy please resume his seat?
Is that a new precedent?
Will the Deputy please resume his seat? I am calling Deputy Bruton on item No. 5.
The Chair is not answering me. Will the Chair make a statement on the matter?
Will the Deputy please resume his seat? Is the Deputy going to obey the ruling of the Chair? The Chair is not called on to make any statement.