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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 May 1979

Vol. 314 No. 1

Private Members' Business. Oil Supplies: Motion.

I move:

That Dail Eireann notes with grave concern the continuing and prospective shortages in oil supplies, and deplores the failure of the Government and of the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy to take early and effective steps to guarantee the maintenance of supplies to industry, agriculture, fishing, and socially essential services.

This story is one which has no scandals in it. There will be no shocking revelations in it. It is a very ordinary story. It is essentially one of neglect and inertia. It is a story to which the personality of the Minister—I do not mean the Minister of State, Deputy Burke, but Deputy O'Malley—adds the predictable dimension of human confrontation, bad temper and neurosis. These are the elements which cumulatively have left this country in a quite needless state of near panic in regard to oil supplies since the beginning or middle of March.

A large part of the case which not just I but most of the people will wish to make against the Government in this regard rests on the absolute predictability of the oil shortage, of the form it was going to take and the absolute possibility of taking adequate measures in time to avert scrambles, public disquiet, panic and perhaps damage to the economy of the kind it looked as though we were going to have when it was apprehended in March that there would not be enough gas diesel oil for the agricultural operations which rely so heavily on it in the early part of the season, and subsequently that there would not be enough petrol or diesel oil for the operations of the tourist industry later. That is something which is being seen only now.

I want to make it clear that this was predictable not just by me, not just by wiseacres who are saying after the event that they knew all along it was coming, it was predictable also for the Minister and his advisers. The other day I asked a question in regard to the technical periodicals which the Minister receives. I got an answer from him in which he revealed in tabular form a long list of periodicals to which his Department subscribed and which deal with energy and oil supplies. It was an impressive enough list, particularly when one has regard to the fact that the staff in the Department are small, actually smaller by one than two years ago, notwithstanding the very serious dimensions which the energy situation has developed in that time.

There were only two out of the list of about a dozen of which more than one copy was taken, but one periodical of which three copies were taken and which I can only suppose is a periodical which is read in several parts of the rather small section at the Minister's disposal, was the International Petroleum Times. In their issue of 15 January they sounded the absolutely clearest possible warning of the difficulties which were in store. They said:

The world was set for an oil crisis both of supply and price. We are going through the quite months again. We ignored all the signs that were flashing in 1973. We are probably making all the same mistakes again.

I do not want to read the whole article, but they pointed out that the Iranian exports which were in the course of completely dropping out, even though they had been decreasing during the period of strikes leading up to the exit of the Shah, accounted for almost 14½ per cent of crude oil in world trade terms. The article continued:

The further shortfall of 3 million b/d which has occurred since November cannot be made up from any other source and unless demand falls by a similar amount, a severe supply crisis will exist for as long as Iran is producing significantly less than those 3 million b/d.

There were tables in the periodical which showed the oil companies which were particularly dependent on Iranian supply. It showed that the Shell group relied on Iran for 18 per cent of their oil. That group account for a very heavy proportion of the Irish supply. The Burmah company relied for all of their oil on the Iranian supply and that supply has completely disappeared. That alone ought to have been enough to warn a Department and a Minister who were taking their responsibilities seriously what was coming.

A week earlier, on 6 January, The Economist, a general paper devoted to serious economic and political matters, warned:

The problems posed by Iran are cumulative. If it produces no oil from now until March, and stocks are run down companies will be hoping to make up during the summer, usually a slack time in the oil markets. If Iran is still producing only intermittently, or at low levels, the companies will find it difficult to rebuild their stocks to acceptable levels to meet next winter's demand which may be a per cent or two higher than it is this winter.

In a country like this, it will be more than that because of the low base from which our economic growth is starting.

So renewed trouble in Iran would put more serious pressure on supplies, weaken stocks further——

One of the most esoteric of all these journals, but which is on the Department's subscription list, is Petroleum Intelligence Weekly which strictly for-bids copies of itself to be made, referred to the International Energy Agency's optimistic forecast in their issue dated 5 February—still six weeks before anyone in Ireland began to get panicstricken, least of all the Department who, I believe, were exclusively relying on that forecast. The Petroleum Intelligence Weekly said:

IEA officials say the shortfall is "still far from 7%"....

Thus far, IEA has purposely avoided speculating about the possible duration of the Iranian oil cutoff and what to do if it continues beyond the winter.

The International Energy Agency forecast of about 5 per cent shortfall, I understand, was based on figures which they had collected some time around mid-December. In other words, at a time when the Minister should have been showing some activity—other than going to the United States on promotional tours on which he could have sent Deputy Burke or Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn—and asking if this shortfall prediction accurately reflected what was going to happen in this country because this was an overall shortfall in crude. It was not necessarily a shortfall which would turn out to be only 5 per cent in regard to the kinds of fuel on which our economy, apart from the generation of electricity by heavy residual oil, very heavily depends, in particular gas diesel oil and petrol. That was not necessarily going to be merely a 5 per cent shortfall, but when I found the Department and the Minister persistently saying that the shortfall would be only of that order, I had to come to the conclusion that they were taking the IEA figure and, with gross inexpertness and ignorance, applying that right across the board to various different forms of refined products. If they had been properly advised, they would not have been exposed to this.

The Economist on 10 February in an article entitled “The shadows of Iran are falling on the West” said that western Governments and oil companies were beginning to worry about oil stocks—“western Governments,” except the Fianna Fail Government in Merrion Street. They have other things to worry about—the Family Planning Bill, British policy on the North, the British Dimension, the Irish language as part of what we are, being able to speak three or four scraps of kitchen Irish, and how they were going to scrape an extra seat in the European elections. But the things that concerned the rest of mankind, like how they were going to keep their economies going on fuel and oil, heat their hospitals, keep traffic from seizing up, were of no concern to the Government. In fact, one would need to comb the February newspapers to find any reference of official concern with the oil situation. There were signs but they were not coming from the Government. There was the occasional complacent remark from the Minister of the sort we have heard before that we were moving into an era in which this finite resource would need to be husbanded and in which it would behove us to be economical with it, not to waste it and so on, but that was all. There were no measures intended to forestall or avert the consequences of the severe shortage which we had, and have. The Economist went on to say that the time to worry would be late next month—the end of March—when importing countries normally expect their stocks to start rising again through the spring and summer. That will be the time to worry. The only one worrying about it was Deputy Bruton in my party who was complaining that his farmers could not get diesel oil for their tractors. The only one on the Government side who really reacted was the Minister who said that people were being greedy and selfish in topping up unnecessarily and the Minister opposite who said that the oil companies were behaving like criminals. That the International Energy Agency, which is supposed to organise any share-out among 19 OECD members if there is a repeat of the 1973-1974 oil crisis, is complacent is the judgment of The Economist on 10 February. They are no more complacent than the Minister and his advisers, but the December information on stocks is rapidly becoming out of date. I quote:

When its governing council meet early next month——

that was in March

——to review the situation it will have more up-to-date (and perhaps more alarming) figures.

Those figures evidently did not penetrate to the Minister or to those whom he allows to advise him.

On the subject of the people who advise the Minister I want to say—and I intend no reflection on the official advisers whom the Minister has in his Department who naturally do their best with the material to hand and with the training which they have—there are very few of them. I got figures from the Minister the other day which showed that he had one person fewer in those sections of his Department than existed two years ago when the Department was in charge of Deputy P. Barry. He has no full-time non-civil servant consultants at all. He told me in reply to a supplementary question that he had some part-time consultants—or not even that but consultancy firms to which he had recourse occasionally. I asked him from this bench, "Did you ask them about the likely supply situation in March and April? Did you ask your consultants about that at the turn of the year?" There was no reply. I repeated the question and I was gonged out by the Chair. I would have thought that that was a harmless question which did not put the national welfare at risk or anything of that kind. Having been frustrated by a combination of the Minister and the Chair, I put down a question on the following morning for written reply today which I hoped to have by this evening, and I got it. I asked if the Minister would give the names of the outside consultant or consultants to whom he has occasional recourse on energy and on oil supply matters as stated by him in his reply to a Dail question on 2 May, the matters on which they have been consulted and the dates on which in respect of these matters their advice was sought. The answer I got an hour ago was this:

Since I have assumed responsibility for energy matters, consultants have been engaged in my Department to advise on a variety of subjects in the energy field including matters relating to coal, electricity, turf and petroleum. In view of the commercial and strategic considerations involved I am satisfied that it would not be in the public interest to give further information in respect of these studies.

I am not so dim as not to realise that there are conceivably strategic dimensions to energy even in a little country like this which is so holy and so above the common ruck of mankind that it feels it can sit on the fence and does not need to take sides in global conflicts or on issues which divide the rest of mankind. We have the attitude that we are far above the grimy little disputes between the free world and the communist world. We are very free to throw words like "fascist" and "communist" around when it suits us but we will not spend one penny to keep either of these forces of tyranny out of the way.

Is the Deputy going further than Deputy FitzGerald went yesterday?

Deputy Kelly, and the motion concerns oil.

Maybe in a little country like this, which intends merely to provide a sort of police force for itself and is not too good even at that sometimes, there are strategic dimensions to its energy problems, but that was an outrageous reply to a serious question. Surely the Minister could have said, "There are some questions like alternative energy sources, the feasibility of a nuclear energy proposal, price developments in coal supply and the likely developments in the oil market, on which I have sought advice from outside consultants. There are other matters on which I have also sought advice but these are of a sensitive kind involving national security and high public policy, and I ask the House to excuse me from revealing them on those grounds." I would have accepted that without question, but I am going to keep on asserting until the Minister denies it that his reply was designed to conceal the fact that he never asked anyone outside his Department about the likely situation in regard to oil supply this spring. He got no advice except from the officials sitting in Kildare Street who are, no doubt, honest, devoted, dedicated and hard-working but who have not the expertise necessary to advise the Minister in a crisis situation such as we have. Still less have they the expertise to warrant their giving personnel to a national oil corporation. Where are they going to get the staff for a national oil corporation? We have not got in Kildare Street a single consultant who knows anything about the oil business but we are going to staff a national oil corporation, an Chorparáid Náisiúnta um Ola and they will have a cathaoirleach and a board.

That does not arise on this debate. I ask the Deputy not to deal with that Department. We are dealing with oil.

They will have annual reports. Will they contain anybody who knows anything about the oil business, oil supplies, the oil world and the wicked multinationals whom we are always hearing about? Would anybody there be able to do anything except put out his tongue at them, which is all that the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy is able to do? To give such a reply to a Dail question is cowardly. I would have asked for an oral question except that I needed the answer for this evening, and if he had given such a reply orally he would have been shouted down in a disorderly way, I have no doubt. He would have been laughed at if he had given that reply orally to the House. But do not worry, if he and I live long enough he will be getting that question from me as soon as the six months is up, as soon as I am in order in asking it again orally.

To give an idea of the atmosphere of the world outside when the Fianna Fáil world was worrying about the Family Planning Bill, whether the Minister for Health could be persuaded to complete negotiations with the doctors, whether the Irish language was in order or whether some other national objective to which they had never given two minutes continuous thought could be held out to the people as something on which the Government were at work, let me give this little montage of headlines, all from The Irish Times: 28 December 1978: “Iran oil crisis to hit world prices”; 17 February 1979: “O'Malley warns of petrol price rise”. The newspaper states, “The cost might approach £1 per gallon by the end of the year.” It is at £1 a gallon at the beginning of the year. That is the value of his prediction on 17 February. Within six weeks of his saying that the price was at £1 bar a fraction of a penny.

27 January, 1979: "Oil shortage not yet critical". However, on 14 February, "Filling stations running dry". 1 March, 1979: "Iran to nationalise oil as Western firms told to leave"; 2 March, 1979: "EEC countries warned of 22 per cent rise in oil prices." Of course, that does not affect us. We are the Irish, we are special. We do not need to worry about rises in prices as everybody else has to do. If we have a Minister who can put his tongue out at the oil companies and who can down-face them and see them off by putting out his tongue at them, we do not need to worry.

3 March, 1979: "Oil price rises forecast to cost economy £80m; 6 March, 1979: "ESB to apply for increase in charges"; now the ESB are coming to life. 7 March, 1979: "Aer Lingus may have to restrict services because of oil shortage"; 8 March, 1979: "Oil firms seek price increase"; at last it is beginning to come home. 9 March, 1979: "5p petrol price rise likely soon"; and "Petrol and heating oil to go up by 4p a gallon".

At last we are getting action. On the same date we have: "State may buy oil in bulk". I asked a question about this oil corporation who are going to buy oil in bulk. There is not a single firm proposal about it that was fit to be told to the House the other day. The Minister opposite me was asked about it on 26 April and he had not a single, firm thing to say about it. I renewed the question in a different form on Wednesday last when I could not get a single bit of information out of the Minister, not even as much information as would tell me whether this national oil corporation was designed—as obviously was originally intended on 9 March—merely to buy oil for the semi-State bodies, or whether the public at large would benefit from it as well.

On 26 March we read: Government urged by Garages to bring in Petrol Rationing: on 28 March: "Fears of Oil Crisis Worse than 1973." What is happening in all these benches? What is happening to the seven dozen eggs over there? Is there any word out of them about the oil crisis that the papers are full of? There is not a word out of them. They are off at national commemorations of this and that, handing out——

Members of the House should be addressed as Deputies. I do not see any eggs around the place.

(Interruptions.)

Handing out scripts to schoolchildren about the national objectives, about planting trees, about being kind to animals, about litter month——

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Kelly cannot hang everything under the sun on this motion. We are dealing here with oil and oil supplies only.

(Interruptions.)

On 29 March we read: "Oil price increase will push economy further into the red"; 28 March: "OPEC prices may rise 27 per cent above official rate". Naturally the leprechauns over there will not be touched by that. All they will have to do is reach into their little pot of gold when all these hardships that fall on the rest of the world will disappear; 29 March: Sheik Yamani says that only cuts will end oil crisis. 6 April: "Government denies retailers' claim of 25 per cent petrol shortage"; denied it; it is a lie; it did not happen; it is not there; people are not going mad around the country trying to get fuel; it is all imagination, or hoarding, or criminality, as Minister Burke said.

I did not use that word. Would the Deputy say where I used that word?

On 12 April 1979, on arriving back from——

Would the Deputy say where I used that word?

I am sorry, I did not hear the Minister myself——

Unless the Deputy can produce the document in which the word was used——

I do not want to waste my time on it. I am sorry; I will withdraw it. If the Minister wishes to contradict me, I will accept it, but I understood he had said on television that oil firms who were hoarding oil were criminals. If he says now he did not say that I will accept it. But I am going to check and, if he did say it, I will rub his nose in it.

That is fair enough; the Deputy is entitled to. The Deputy will come back and apologise if he does not find it.

On 12 April, the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy, having at last got back from America from his second trip there in two months: "Government Order puts oil supply in O'Malley's control": "The Government decided last night to confront—" There were nearly overtones of the beginning of a Franco-Prussian war or something like that general mobilisation, call to the colours. "The Government decided last night to confront the oil companies by standing on its right to insist on deliveries of diesel, petrol and heating oils when and where it considered it necessary". That is a fine phrase. One can see the torches burning on the Doric columns of the GPO with that phrase. What was the net result? They were laughing at him because it let them off the hook. They were now able to suspend their domestic heating oil contracts with impunity because they had got from the Minister, who represented it as a major victory against the oil companies and allowed the Government Information Service to go around whispering to that effect, an order which they themselves had requested. They saw it as letting them out of the legal obligation which they otherwise had incurred to stick to domestic heating oil contracts and keep up supplies which they could not maintain, at least not at the price levels to which they were attached.

The next morning The Irish Times published an editorial entitled “The Sleeper Awakes”. After the country had been shouting at the Government for three weeks—“The Sleeper Awakes”. When I saw that editorial—I am sorry to introduce this recondite little item—it reminded me of a cantanta by Johann Sebastian Bach entitled “Sleepers Awake”. It is built around the parable of the wise virgins and the foolish virgins who were bridesmaids—and funnily enough that was about an oil scarcity too—who had neglected to fill their lamps with oil. These foolish bridesmaids were caught napping when the lord arrived for the wedding. Now this foolish bridesmaid had some of his wits about him. He knew that what was in this for him was a lot of facile headlines. Mind you, the thing ended happily enough because he was in the facile headline business, the cheap headline business, and the oil companies were in the making-money business. Both of them made a good deal of what they were out for. I have to hand it to the two of them. Of course those headlines are water under the bridge now because the country is again shouting at him. And the oil companies made some money, not as much as they wanted to make but a fair bit.

There was the official policy, that there was no real shortage. Even last week the Minister said there was no real shortage when I put it to him that there was a garage which had been advertised in the paper as having—and it is still doing so—offered petrol at £1.20 a gallon and that there were queues half a mile long, 24 hours a day, to get in to buy that petrol at £1.20 a gallon. The Minister's reaction was: he would prosecute them. Of course, he had forgotten, or perhaps he did not know, that that particular brand was outside his control order, as was any brand that was not named in the control order, so that he had no legal power at present to prosecute them or do anything with them at all. The Minister might perhaps have had the grace to accept that when he finds people selling petrol at £1.20 a gallon and people glad to get it at that price, then something like a shortage is going on and that it is not just little local difficulties, as he put it then.

But it was not simply a denial, not simply a policy or, if you like, an attitude which varied between denying that there was a shortage and abusing motorists for topping up, putting unnecessary petrol in their tanks, or some diesel consumers putting the necessary diesel in their tanks—that was not his only line. His other line was that the multinational companies were out to do us down. When he was talking about motorists topping up—this was in The Irish Times of 2 April—he said that they could not allow price to dictate supply. If I heard that coming from Deputy Quinn, from Deputy Barry Desmond, or from some far-out member of the Labour Party not in the Dail at all and never likely to be, I would not be surprised. Naturally that is a point of view which one associates with the extreme Left, that one cannot allow supply to be determined by price. That, naturally, is a capitalist maxim and cannot be tolerated by a certain wing of the political sprectrum. Deputy O'Malley is absolutely the last man from whom I ever expected to hear that sentiment. He is one of the leading officeholders in a party which intoned the profit motive, which intoned the market economy as the third national objective of this country. They said repeatedly that there was nothing disgraceful about profit. Mark you, I think they are quite right about that. I agree with them, there is nothing disgraceful about profit. But suddenly, for this one commodity, in this one context, it was disgraceful to associate price with supply.

I will make the Minister opposite a present of this in case he thinks I am going to embark on a defence of the oil companies: I think that price and supply have got a connection with each other. The reason supplies are a bit shorter here than they would be otherwise is because the companies have been squeezed on price. My information, such as it is, is to the effect that, even if they got twice the present price, there would not be enough oil to go around to satisfy the demand at its present level. Therefore I do not think price constitutes the whole answer. I do think it is true, I would not mind admitting it. I do not hold a brief for the oil companies. I have not a share in any of them. I have no friends or relations in any of them. I have no motive in the world to stand up for them except to say, as I said before in the House, that even an oil company is entitled to justice, even an oil company is entitled not to be a whipping boy of a Minister just when it suits him to use that excuse to cover up his incompetence and inertia.

If the oil companies were getting a bit more for their product there would be more of it around. The reason they were not producing more of it or that there is not more coming in is not because they are hoarding it somewhere in a subterranean cave by the millions of gallons and barrels; it is because they are finding it more profitable to sell it somewhere else. That is the reason. I want to put a question to Deputy Burke, who is a businessman. I beg Deputy Killilea's pardon. I do not mean to be personal to him. I do not know what his line of country is, but I would not be surprised if he has business interests, too. Perhaps he has not but, if he has, I should like to put this to him: if he finds that some product he is in the business of selling will fetch more money in Tuam than it will in Loughrea, I am damned sure Tuam is the place he will sell it. I am certain that if the Minister of State, Deputy Burke, finds he can advertise something he is in the business of selling more profitably in Mullingar than in Athlone Mullingar is the place that will get his custom. Why are the oil companies supposed to be any different? Are they any different from the suppliers of any other commodity which we do not produce?

I am not asking that anybody should be tender-hearted towards the oil companies because they are well able to look after themselves. I want a bit of realism and honesty towards the public; a little less of a public relations exercise, a little less flak and talk about confronting this and down-facing that. The Minister has done his best or his worst in regard to confrontation and the queues at the petrol stations are still a mile long. There have been two increases in price in the meantime and we are not at the end of them.

The Deputy should go to Malone distributors and tell the workers that.

There are a few things that can be done by a State which finds itself squeezed for a vital commodity of which it provides not one drop. Oil, of course, is the most vital one. I do not mind what the commodity is—for example, the raw materials we use for industry, in the building industry in particular, exploded in price during the recession and were a very serious factor from our point of view in 1975 and 1976—if it comes from abroad and explodes in price it will cause the same difficulties. However, in 1975 and 1976 we did not have a Coalition Minister posturing, strutting and pretending by putting out his tongue at the suppliers of these products he could call them to heel. None of our Ministers was so ridiculous.

The Ministers did not do anything in those years.

None of our Ministers was so ridiculous. When there was a crisis 20 times worse in 1973-74 there was no panic because there was a Minister in charge of Transport and Power, Deputy Peter Barry, who was not neurotic. He was realistic, honest and open.

He went running around and printing ration books.

And I hope the Government are doing the same.

Charges of people being neurotic and that sort of thing in the House should not be made.

The Chair knows that I do not mean it in the clinical sense.

We do not take anything the Deputy says seriously.

I will use a more homely expression: he has got a bee in his bonnet about the oil companies. It is only one of a number of bees that buzz around that cranium. He has a large noisy bee in his bonnet about the oil companies. The oil companies, no doubt, are a very hard-nosed lot of people. I could see the Minister, Deputy O'Malley, as an oil company executive had he not been steered into politics by destiny. Such companies are no worse and no better than anybody else in private enterprise and we must deal with them realistically. The result of the Minister's operations is that there is a shortage and I have no doubt that it could be relieved by something of a price rise. I give the Minister credit for the fact that he does not want to push up the cost of living index but which is better: to be going through the motions of appearing to keep down the cost of living by resisting a moderate price rise or refusing that price rise and having everybody queueing up to buy petrol at three times what that price rise would be? People are falling over themselves to buy petrol at £1.20 per gallon. I have heard rumours of diesel truck drivers who are desperate. One garage owner told me yesterday that some of them were coming to him crying for £3 or £4 worth of diesel—that amount of diesel would not go very far in a big truck—and those drivers were willing to pay up to £2 per gallon if they could get it.

Is that rumour or fact?

I was told that as a fact. I do not spend my time running around petrol stations interviewing, doing vox populi stunts on the people.

The Deputy is running around in circles.

I have to gather the information the best way I can. A Minister is in a better position to gather reliable information than I. I am not arguing that the Minister should let prices rip. I accept that it is a respectable and necessary thing for a Minister to try to keep prices down but where he is dealing with a commodity which he does not produce that may not be a realistic attitude, particularly when it is evidence by petrol being freely sold at £1.20 per gallon and people willing to pay that money in order to keep their businesses afloat.

Another possibility—one which I am not recommending—is to nationalise the distribution networks of all the oil companies. There was a rumour in the newspapers, which the Minister denied, that he was going to do that and supply the plain people of Ireland, between industry, agriculture and everything else, with oil from the Soviet Union. I accept the Minister's denial that that is not true but anybody who imagines that we have the expertise, or would be likely in 100 years to develop the expertise that would enable us overnight to switch from the present structure to a nationalised one and still sell petrol and oil at the same price, known nothing about the operation of State companies here. All the evidence of the State companies we have is to the effect that because they do not have the profit motive and have boards of whom it can be said that it does not mean one penny out of their pockets if the thing makes a loss at the end of the year they are not run as efficiently. The result is that the prices are higher. There is a State oil company in Italy which has direct arrangements with Iran and before this year's crisis petrol was being sold in Italy at 500 lire per litre which works out at £1.34 per gallon or 40 per cent higher than the Irish price before the crisis. The State company in Norway made such colossal losses that it went bankrupt.

I am not against State involvement where it is reasonable. It is possible that Deputy O'Leary will suggest that. If I can be persuaded by Deputy O'Leary, or anybody else, that this is a solution I will go along with it but the evidence of our State companies suggests that we would be a damn sight worse off with the thing in the hands of a State monopoly. Another possibility is that we diversify our energy supply sources. That was urged time and again by the Minister, and others, because they realise we have got to do that. Nothing like enough effort is going into that or into providing ourselves with alternative sources of energy. We are talking about biomass, wind, waves and tide but almost all the research on those has been done by outside agencies towards which we contribute a few pounds. Very little is happening here in this regard.

Another possibility is energy conservation. That is vital in a country which has housing which is the most wasteful of heat in Europe, as reported by the ESRI. It is ironic that a Minister who whenever he opens his mouth about this says a few dutiful words, goes through the motions of giving a leg-up to energy conservation, who when he was asked what he was doing about it gave us an answer like the one given on Thursday week on his behalf by the Minister of State. At the time I put down that question I did not have any inside information but I was anxious to contrast the situation which I casually noticed during the rare hour or half-hour I find myself watching television with that which existed when we were in office. I did not notice any advertising recently of the kind initiated by Deputy Peter Barry of trying to persuade people to put lagging jackets on cylinders, turn off hot water taps and be careful and economical in the way they drive.

In 1976, the last full year of the National Coalition, more than £70,000 was spent on that type of advertising. I know that it is but a fraction of what is being spent on television trying to persuade us that it is part of what we are if we can say go dtuga Dia slán abhaile duit, but it is a lot of money for something serious in this little country. What was spent in the first three months of 1979 by this Government of geniuses on the same topic was £150. A subeditor in yesterday's Irish Independent obviously could not believe that because he gratuitously changed that figure to £15,000. Obviously, he could not believe that it was only £150. I believe that amount was for a bill left over from the Coalition time, that went astray and was paid belatedly. In other words, no money has been spent.

We need from the Government, and the Minister, a sober, realistic and active policy on oil and energy, informed by a proper consultancy service. I do not care whether it is permanently in the Department or outside so long as it is properly informed and led by a Minister who is less interested in personal confrontation and who is less interested in having flak jobs done by the GIS in an effort to put himself in a David-and-Goliath situation with the oil companies who are only laughing at him. Until such time as we have this service we will have this recurring crisis. The Minister smiled when I referred to rationing but it is time that we were considering rationing of supplies. We could introduce rationing and, should it be found not to be necessary, it could be forgotten about. Nobody will blame a Government for being that bit too careful but they will be blamed for being asleep and this Government, this sleeping bridesmaid, has been asleep during the crucial early months of 1979—a situation that had led to the crisis and the panic we are talking about.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" in line 1 and substitute the following:—

having regard to the general short-fall in oil supplies and to the need for consumers generally to make the best use of available supplies, has full confidence in the Government and in the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy to take such steps as they deem necessary to ensure the continued availability of supplies for our essential needs.

I have listened with interest to Deputy Kelly's speech and I am impressed by the concern he has shown for the needs of the Irish consumer; but his concern, however well-intentioned, seems to be based on a misreading of the facts and to be distinctly divorced from reality. The Deputy spent a considerable amount of his time quoting from various journals and articles. He had before him copies of a number of publications that come to us in the Department. The Deputy knows that there are as many forecasters as there are journals and experts and that all of these experts are writing in these journals. I envy Deputy Kelly the time that is obviously available to him to read in such detail—from front page to back page, line by line, it would appear—the daily newspapers. He has referred particularly to a considerable number of headlines that have appeared from time to time. One of the headlines he quoted was from a newspaper of some date in March and which read that Aer Lingus may have to restrict services. Did they have to restrict their services or is that quotation as inaccurate as were many of the others used by the Deputy? He quoted, too, the activity of one of his colleagues in the farming world who was involved in talks about oil supplies to the industry earlier in the year. It is extremely misleading and totally inaccurate to say that farmers were not able to get supplies of gas or diesel in January or February. The certified returns indicate that in January gas and diesel sales were 27.4 per cent greater than the comparative figures for January 1978 and that they were up by 12.3 per cent on sales in February 1978. Would these figures appear to represent the kind of crisis that Deputy Kelly speaks of?

The Deputy uses such phrases as "new panic since the middle of March was predictable." The panic has been generated by the type of speech we have just listened to. What did emerge from the Deputy's statement was his obvious attraction to the operations of the multinationals. It would not be going too far to describe him as the darling of the multinationals. During the past couple of weeks we have heard from the Deputy in a series of questions and supplementaries his expression of concern for the role and the activity of the multinationals. We have had it here again this evening. As the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy will be intervening in this debate tomorrow evening, I shall not refer to all the points raised by Deputy Kelly, despite the strong temptation on my part to do so.

On this question of energy the principal fact is that, as an energy-deficient country we are particularly vulnerable to any interference with oil supplies. We are dependent on imported oil to the extent of about 75 per cent. No amount of fudging can obscure this salient fact. We do not have oil resources of our own. All the oil we use—and we are now using more than six million tonnes a year— must be imported either as crude oil for refining at Whitegate or in product form. As most of us are aware, about 40 per cent of our oil needs are met by the Whitegate refinery with the balance coming from refineries elsewhere in product form.

Deputy Kelly said, rightly, that we should be considering alternative sources of energy. I would refer him to the Energy Ireland document published by the Department in July last. Deputy Kelly made the point that we were making contributions towards investigations of alternative energy supplies but said that we are not involved in Ireland in any such investigation. I would remind the Deputy of the project in Kerry and of the research being done in relation to the biomass project. We must have regard also to our available resources as a small nation. It would be ludicrous for us to try to duplicate the efforts of major countries in various parts of the world who are involved in investigations into alternative sources of energy—wave and wind power and so on. Very sensibly what we are doing through the IEA and through EEC connections is making a contribution to the overall cost of the investigations that are taking place. In this way we can save the nation financially and we can benefit by participating in the overall experiments which we could not hope to fund on our own. Even if we had that sort of money it would be directed to other channels. Therefore, ours is the intelligent approach. We are involved, for example, in a joint wave project on the Scottish coast, an area that has many geographical similarities with our south-west coast.

Perhaps I might recapitulate the sequence of events that have led to problems of oil supplies. The oil market is very sensitive to external pressure of any kind. Developments in Iran in the past six months have unbalanced the market completely. The troubles there which started in the autumn culminated in the cessation of crude oil exports from that country for a period of more than two months from the end of December to early March last. As is known generally Iran supplied about five-and-a-half million barrels of crude oil per day to the western world. That was about one tenth of the western world's crude oil requirements. About 10 per cent of our oil imports also came from Iran. The loss of Iranian crude oil was temporarily made good by increased production in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere, but a combination of circumstances, including the recent very severe winter and the Iranian decision not to export any more oil to Israel and South Africa led to unprecedented demand for any oil that became available.

In addition, some industrialised countries, such as Japan, have been quite prepared to pay very high prices for what oil they can get. Moreover, as soon as exports from Iran resumed on what was essentially an ad hoc basis some weeks ago, the Iranian authorities made the oil available, not on contract terms but at auction prices which, in turn, contributed to the upwards pressure on supplies. Although oil exports from Iran have recommenced the flow of exports has been at uncertain levels and there are no assurances, as of now, that the oil flow from that country will be resumed on a regular basis at contract or fixed-price levels. This uncertainty in supplies has meant that very few countries in the western world, except those fortunate enough to be entirely or virtually independent of oil imports, have not been affected by developments in Iran.

As I have already mentioned, prior to the disturbances in Iran about 10 per cent of all our oil imports came from that country. It would unrealistic, therefore, to expect that we could get by without any adverse repercussions. The reality is that the loss of Iranian oil, taken in conjunction with increased production elsewhere, resulted at the time in a shortfall in oil supplies of about 5 per cent across the board, the shortfall being greater in some products than in others with consequent pressure on available supplies.

In his contribution to this debate Deputy Kelly referred to a number of companies who had connections with and depended on Iran for their supplies to a limited degree or in varying degree. He mentioned two companies in particular. One company to which I should like to refer accounted for about 5 per cent of the market in this country, or did until this problem arose in Iran. In my view they had not been meeting their obligations to the people of this country, to their contracted customers. For a number of months that company did not supply any oil and, consequently, put pressure on other companies within the Irish economy. Other companies who had a shortfall because of the Iranian situation tried to make up the shortfall by various other means, on the spot markets and in other ways.

Our Department can in no way be held responsible and in no way do we agree with the attitudes taken by that company who had 5 per cent of the market. I referred particularly to the treatment they attempted to mete out to their contract purchasers by the delivery of letters asking for increases of 50 per cent and 60 per cent in prices. As Minister of State I and others in the Department abhor this. In no way have they met their obligations to the Irish market and to their contracted customers. I want to compliment the other companies who have attempted to take up the slack and handle the consequent pressure put on them by the failure of this company to meet their obligations to the market.

A shortfall across the board of the order of 5 per cent, meant in an Irish context, a greater shortfall on motor spirit and gas-diesel than on other oil products such as fuel oil. The shortfall has been highest in gas-diesel oil which is used for a variety of purposes including domestic central heating, as a tractor fuel, and as fuel for fishing boats, road haulage trucks, and so on. A continued shortfall in supplies of gas-diesel oil in the current quarter is anticipated and, as Deputies will be aware, an order providing for priority to be given to certain users of that product was recently made.

It is important to remember what exactly the order made was. Deputy Kelly referred to it as window-dressing. That is not the exact phrase he used. He said it was so much public relations work on behalf of the Government Information Services and so much bluster on behalf of the Minister, Deputy O'Malley. The reality is that the order is very specific and lays down specific sectors of the community and of the economy which must be looked after.

The Order is S.I. 142 of 1979, 3: in the period beginning on the commencement of this order and ending on 30 June 1979 an oil wholesaler, or a retailer, or a distributor shall in the delivery of gas-diesel oil give priority to the delivery of such oil for the purposes of the following: agriculture, which was quoted earlier as having a problem, commerce, fisheries, hospitals and similar institutions, industry and tourism. Does Deputy Kelly suggest this is a bluster on behalf of the Minister?

They are listed in alphabetical order. What is the priority inter se?

I can say quite specifically that this is not bluster. The priority is laid down——

That is bluster now.

The Minister is in possession.

Deputy Kelly has attempted to paint this order as being merely bluster and public relations on behalf of the Minister.

That is all it is.

Action was taken, as distinct from 1973 when they ran around printing ration books.

What is the priority as between agriculture and tourism?

The specific priorities as laid down are agriculture, commerce, fisheries, hospitals and similar institutions, industry and tourism.

In that order.

When I mention tourism I want to refer to something which was said.

There is no priority there at all. It is only bluff.

The Minister is in possession.

The Government and the Minister are fully conscious of the special importance of the tourist industry and of the major contribution it makes to the development of the national economy. We are all aware of the jobs involved and the other contributions made by the tourist industry. For these reasons, the Government will ensure that the essential requirements of that industry, including the provision of adequate supplies of petrol for tourists are met, and the necessary consultations to achieve this end are in train at the moment.

A shortfall in supplies of motor spirit also cannot be ruled out but I would not care to speculate at this stage on what the level of shortfall in these two products will be during the current quarter. There can be no certainty as to the level of future supplies but it is relevant that, in the first quarter of this year, direct deliveries into consumption of oil products by the oil companies were substantially in excess of direct deliveries during the corresponding period last year. The information at my disposal indicated that in fact there was a total increase of about 10 per cent in deliveries of motor spirit as between the first quarter of 1979 and the corresponding quarter last year. For gas-diesel oil the total increase was of the order of 15 per cent which by any standard is not unreasonable and, by reference to the known pressure on supplies elsewhere, was positively generous.

The difficulties in present circumstances of fully meeting what might be called an insatiable demand for motor spirit and gas-diesel were somewhat starkly, if not brutally, put by President Carter recently when he made it clear that in the USA next winter it may be a choice between motor spirit and gas-diesel oil for domestic heating, but not both. I need hardly stress the degree of "muscle" which the USA carries with its high level of indigenous oil production and its capacity to absorb enormous imports. In such circumstances, it would be unrealistic for us to continue to act on the assumption that unlimited supplies of all forms of oil products will continue to be available to us in the future.

Let me emphasise that, as of now, there is no oil crisis but there are oil problems. Because of our special circumstances to which I adverted in my opening remarks we are particularly vulnerable. We are at the end of a long queue for whatever oil supplies are going. We cannot hope to insulate ourselves from the effects of the constraints on oil supplies which other and more prosperous countries than ourselves are experiencing.

This brings me to the future and the role of conservation referred to by Deputy Kelly. He made great play with this figure of £150. I admit that in 1976 expenditure on energy conservation by the then Government was £70,645.

On advertising the conservation message.

The estimate for energy conservation for 1979 as announced, amounts to £422,000. This money will be spent not only on advertising but on other constructive suggestions.

In the present supply situation it is essential—Deputy Kelly referred to this matter and I take his point—that every effort be made to improve conservation and reduce demand by eliminating all wasteful uses of energy, some of them referred to by Deputy Kelly as being part of the advertising programme of the previous administration. In international fora such as the EEC and the International Energy Agency more and more stress is being laid on the importance of energy conservation. This was part of the communique from the last meeting of the Heads of State.

For some years the Department have encouraged the efficient use of energy through grant schemes to cover the cost of engaging consultants to carry out fuel efficiency surveys in industry and steps are being taken to give added impetus to this scheme. Plans have already been drawn up for an invigorated campaign on the industrial front. The IIRS have been given a leadership role in energy conservation. The industrial energy department of the Institute will expand its existing consultancy, boiler-testing and advisory services to industry. Considerable savings and additional profits can be achieved in the industrial sector. In their new role the Institute will actively seek out the areas in which they can assist rather than waiting for projects to be presented to them. Particular attention will be paid to the follow-up action required to ensure proper implementation of the consultants' recommendations.

The IDA provide grants of up to 30 per cent of the cost of machinery, equipment, instrumentation and building modifications designed to achieve savings in energy. As regards new industry, the Minister for Industry Commerce and Energy has requested the IDA to ensure that the energy efficiency of a new industry is one of the criteria used in deciding whether aid should be granted. I am sure Deputy Kelly will agree that that is a positive approach to the problem.

The maximum grant provided towards the labour and material costs of research and development projects of manufacturing firms which show a reasonable prospect of energy savings has been increased from £15,000 to £50,000 for any one project. Again, I am sure Deputy Kelly will agree that that is a positive approach to the problem.

A number of publicity campaigns have already been mounted. The Department of the Environment will introduce building regulations for grant-aided new houses to meet specified thermal performance standards. Again, I am sure Deputy Kelly will agree that that is a positive approach to the matter. As a contribution to energy conservation, in April 1979 that Department announced that insulation work in a private house qualified for a grant under the house improvement grant scheme. Again, I am sure that Deputy Kelly will be prepared to admit that this is a positive approach to the matter. Before a grant is paid for any reconstruction or improvement work the dwelling must provide a satisfactory measure of thermal insulation. Again, I am sure that Deputy Kelly will agree that that is a positive approach to the matter.

As regards the energy saving from attic insulation, it is estimated, assuming that 40 per cent of the potential saving is taken up in increased comfort levels, that there would still be a saving of about £13 a year for a semi-detached house, £20 a year for a detached house and £32 a year for a bungalow. The possibility of further encouraging the insulation of dwellings is being examined.

I agree; I have acknowledged that these are useful measures.

I thank the Deputy. A report of the IIRS, commissioned by the Department, on the energy conservation options in buildings is expected to be released within the next week or so. Almost one-third of the energy used in the country is consumed by the domestic sector. The report will show that substantial savings are possible in new and existing houses through a combination of improved insulation standards and the use of smaller heating systems. As a result of the study, it is estimated that energy demand for new housing can be reduced by as much as 55 per cent through the implementation of high insulation standards, and by 40 per cent for existing houses. The study is primarily intended to assist technical and commercial people, but the result will also be made available in a separate volume to householders. The Department have also commissioned An Foras Forbartha to study the efficiency and use of domestic heating systems and their report is expected by the end of the year.

When one considers that record one will find that it does not match Deputy Kelly's statement that the Department are not conscious of the importance of conservation and are not making an effort on conservation. I have not yet before me the definitive figures for April but it is clear from what I said earlier that the shortages of gas, diesel and motor spirit experienced during the first quarter of 1979 were due not so much to reduced supplies coming onto the market but to supply and distribution difficulties aggravated by severe weather conditions. The situation was further aggravated by unfortunate industrial disputes, the details of which it is not necessary for me to go into now.

The recent estimates prepared by the IEA regarding the Irish oil supply situation for the second quarter of this year indicate that there will be a slight shortfall when compared with the average daily consumption for the period 1 April 1978 to 31 March 1979. This outlook may alter later in the light of efforts being made by the IEA to alleviate the supply situation in this country but I'cannot be more positive at this stage.

The oil companies are fully cognisant of their responsibilities for ensuring adequate supplies of oil and oil products and they have been left in no doubt that they must discharge these responsibilities to the best of their ability.

I should like to refer to a couple of points made by Deputy Kelly which I thought were unfair. He refers to the Minister being involved in promotional tours. I am not here to defend the Minister; the Minister will be here to defend himself tomorrow night. It is rare for an Opposition spokesman to accuse a Minister of junketing, a Minister who is in New York on IDA promotional work, trying to get the best coverage for the achievements of the IDA in securing a plant——

I did not say "junketing".

At a time of unemployment to refer to this tour as an unnecessary promotional tour——

It is unnecessary because he has two Ministers of State who should be doing it for him. Senator Justin Keating did not have anyone to help him.

Do not blame me for the decisions of the Coalition Government. Deputy Kelly referred to the national oil corporation. I am sure that this point will be covered by the Minister tomorrow night. The Deputy referred in an insulting way to the ability of the people to regulate their own affairs. He poured cold water on the idea that there is anyone in this country capable of managing a national oil corporation. It is a sleeveen attitude to suggest that we are not capable of organising our own affairs. The Deputy's speech confirms once again everything that I have to come to take for granted from Deputy Kelly, the darling of the multinationals.

There are two aspects to this debate. The aspect which presumably concerns the public most immediately is the sale of petrol to motorists. It is an undeniable fact that unofficial rationing exists at present in the Dublin region and possibly elsewhere. Whether the Government accept this or not, the ordinary person attempting to get petrol will find this is the case. Retail outlets are confining sales of petrol to a certain amount and are closing down earlier. In fact, there are all the characteristics of a rationing system. There is widespread confusion about supplies to industry in the immediate future. It does not get us very far to contrast the present confusion and chaos with the ordered situation which will exist when legislation comes before this House establishing a national oil corporation. I wish to make it clear that I support the concept of such a corporation because it is necessary in the national interest that the State should be involved in the area of energy. It appears at present that the multinationals have this economy by the throat regarding the supply of oil products.

I must address myself also to the actualities of the present situation. The scare headlines we have seen reflect some of the unease felt throughout the country. There are accusations about this group or that group hoarding supplies and I do not want to cast aspersions on any group. The future plans of industry are imperilled by the present confusion. Deputy John Ryan has informed me that there are farmers in Tipperary North who are short of six or eight weeks' supplies. Their suppliers tell them there is a grave shortage and they are very worried about future energy requirements within the agriculture industry in that area, both in relation to early summer work and to the harvest later on.

Industry is also concerned. The Minister read certain listings for priority supplies but I agree with Deputy Kelly that there does not appear to be any ordering of priority as between particular groups. The Minister has jumbled together hospitals and industry and expects order to reign, but confusion will continue unless there is clear formulation of how supplies are to be allocated. The motorist knows there is unofficial rationing of petrol and the queues outside garages testify to this.

There appears to be a blanket curtailment of supplies of houshold heating fuel. Many of the newer housing estates surrounding the cities have no heating facilities except oil-fired central heating. One can imagine the plight of families during this unexpected cold spell when faced with the fact that there will be no further supplies. These unfortunate householders are being met with a blanket refusal by the oil companies. Granted there is priority for industry, hospitals and those who are ill, but surely there must also be priority for families living in houses such as I describe. They were encouraged to purchase their homes at a time when it was considered there would be no shortage of this kind of fuel in the future.

It is an extraordinary insight into the calibre of this Government that this confusion should reign at this time. The events in Iran have not occurred overnight. There were many Irish technicians working in Iran who could informally tell Members of this House in mid-autumn that there was an exodus beginning from Iran's oil industry and that there would be a severe strain on EEC countries who depended on supplies from that area. Because of Ireland's lack of refining capacity it was clear that we would be in a more vulnerable position than most. I put down a question to the Minister regarding the Iranian crisis and how it would affect us. My memory is that a rather bland reply was given which suggested that the crisis would not have an excessively detrimental effect on supplies. I recall that this was before Christmas and I must check the record to see if my memory is correct. This crisis was long in the making and it is extraordinary that this Government should have been so unprepared in view of the obvious and immediate consequences for our energy supplies.

To say the way to deal with the crisis is a set of jumbled priorities, about which no one is very clear, and to say that later there will be legislation for a national oil corporation is not the kind of action one would associate with a Government doing their job properly. This Government, faced with the supply problem, have proved themselves incompetent. The Minister must act far more decisively than he has done so far. It is not sufficient to talk about future plans for a national oil corporation, though I support that concept; the State should have an involvement in this area. In setting up a national oil corporation we would be dealing with powerful vested interests. A large State investment would be entailed and the operations of the corporation should extend to distribution as well as supply.

Such is the control exerted by the multinationals over distribution and storage that up to recently no one was clear as to the supply situation in this country. There have been reports to suggest that even EEC requirements at certain points were not fulfilled in their entirety, that a certain capacity was held elsewhere and that there was not available to us the amount which officially we were told was available. There was also insufficiency of information about the actual grades held, a vital factor in knowing what sort of situation faces us. If you do not know how much diesel you have, how much heating oil and so on you cannot plan with any degree of confidence.

The powers that the companies undoubtedly have in Ireland must be faced and the State must if possible compete in this area to ensure a fair deal for Irish consumers. I am not certain that Irish consumers are getting a fair deal from the oil companies at present. It is an extraordinary coincidence that in the period in which we await the result of an application for a price increase shortage is experienced. There is widespread public suspicion of profiteering in this situation of price applications. Perhaps profiteering is a sensational term but nonetheless that is the feeling of many members of the public, that immediately pending a price increase there appears to be an artificial shortage. Again, the problem here is that the State lacks sufficient knowledge of the actual supply situation. That appears to reinforce the case for a strong State presence in the area of supply and distribution of oil products. It would mean that when the State draws up a priority list for industry, for the services, for hospitals it would have some reality whereas the suspicion can legitimately be held that the Minister is powerless at present when it comes to attempting to control the situation in any discernible way.

My accusation would be that this first Minister for Industry Commerce and Energy—and energy was added to his title by a Government that was proud that it was going to deal with energy in a constructive and imaginative way—has not coped adequately with the kind of crisis that has erupted. The Government have been found wanting in its duty to industry and services in the matter of presiding over a serious situation. We have many factories worried about their energy needs in the future. The farming industry, which we are so often told is important to the national economy is worried and farm leaders are talking of making their own arrangements in regard to supplies, so lacking in confidence are they about the situation confronting them. Industry, therefore, is at the mercy of the multinationals; the Government are apparently powerless and unprepared for a crisis which was some time in the making. The Government in this particular instance have proved to be incompetent and unable to deal with a crisis that was reasonably predictable. As they said subsequently, it is a crisis which affects this country more severely than others.

We have asked questions in the House about what contacts, if any, were to be made with other EEC countries about assistance in our situation. No information is forthcoming and it is very doubtful if any assistance can come our way from EEC sources in this matter since oil is the industrial lifeline in so many of them. I think the Minister should first explain and clarify the priority system that the Government wish to be adopted by industry and the services; clarify the new surveillance provisions drawn up with the companies, clarify the matter of the staff available to the Government for that sort of surveillance. The Minister says we have not a crisis, just a problem—I do not know. The fact is that the industrialist is worried about his supplies, the motorist cannot get sufficient petrol to bring him to work, the family depending on a single source of energy have been told by the oil heating companies that there can be no deliveries indefinitely. In this weather it can easily be imagined what a crisis that can be. It is true that there is supposed to be priority for sick people but there is confusion about whether a doctor's certificate suffices in such cases. One does not know what sort of data exists on the number of households depending on oil heating.

During the period of the last Government we awoke to this problem being the first Government to be hit by this unique problem of the seventies with which we now live and we will live into the indefinite future in an era of energy scarcity. Before the early seventies that was not recognised. In that Government we attempted to ensure that all new house building would at least give the occupants a choice of forms of heating. There are still too many not in that position since there was official encouragement over the years for uni-heating in our homes. Too many recently built homes depend solely on oil for heating. To deal with such cases with a complete and comprehensive refusal of further supplies is not fair or adequate. The Minister and his staff, and the Minister of State present here, have a good deal of explaining to do to a public very confused and at present suffering a rationing system.

It is merely a battle of words to say whether the Government will or will not introduce a rationing system; in my opinion de facto rationing is in operation in the Dublin region. There is a shortage in Dublin; there are garages that are not open and there is curtailment of supplies which appears to be accentuated about the time when the companies are applying for another price increase.

One cannot say how many more price increases we will have in the case of petrol products this year. From my last reading of reports there are two or three pending. One may certainly say that at the minimum fuel will go through a threefold increase in price in 1979; that is a pretty safe prediction. Pending each price application, are we to experience further artificial shortages? Is industry to be held up to ransom? Are the motorists and householders to be held to ransom and must we all wait for the wonderful day when the legislative framework of the national oil corporation will appear? Pending that legislation we need more information and the Minister should get a more realistic understanding with the oil companies. I sympathise with him and I agree with speakers who suggest that these are very strong companies. The budgets of some of the multinationals far surpass the budgets of individual states. They are huge corporations wielding great power over supplies. I do not pretend that it is an easy task, nor would we think it is, for us to preserve the national interest in the midst of this welter of international strength existing in the oil world. On the other hand, the vulnerability of the country in relation to oil supplies which will continue for some time into the future——

Will the Deputy move the adjournment of the debate?

——requires action along the lines of the establishment of a national oil corporation but in the meantime we need some action from the Government to clarify the present appalling situation.

Debate adjourned.
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