Referendum (Amendment) Bill, 1979: Second Stage.

Minister for the Environment (Mr. Barrett)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

As already indicated, it is intended to hold the referenda on the Sixth Amendment of the Constitution (Adoption) Bill, 1978, and the Seventh Amendment of the Constitution (Election of Members of Seanad Éireann by Institutions of Higher Education) Bill, 1979, together on 5 July next. This Bill proposes to assist voters at the referenda by making available to them a statement relating to the proposals which are the subject of the referenda and by providing for the printing of headings on the ballot papers to identify the proposals to which they refer. It also proposes that the polls at the referenda be taken on the basis of counties and county boroughs instead of Dáil constituencies.

Section 1 provides that a special card, containing the statement set out in the appendix to that section must be sent to every elector including postal voters. A single card will cover both referenda. The statement will also be displayed in and in the precincts of polling stations and presiding officers will be authorised to assist blind, incapacitated and illiterate voters by reading out this statement to them, where necessary, and asking them whether they wish to vote in favour of or against the proposals and then marking the ballot papers in accordance with the voters' answers. These arrangements are the same as those made in relation to the referenda on the Third and Fourth Amendment of the Constitution Bills, 1968, the referendum on the Third Amendment of the Constitution Bill, 1971, and the Fourth and Fifth Amendment of the Constitution Bills, 1972.

Under existing law, the proposal which is the subject of a referendum must be stated on the ballot paper by citing, by its short title, the Bill containing the proposal for amendment of the Constitution passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas and the ballot paper may not contain any paraphrase or summary of the proposal. The short titles of the Constitution Amendment Bills which are to be the subject of the forthcoming referenda contain an indication of the subject matter of the Bills. This is the first time this has been done and it should help voters to identify the proposals on which they will be voting. However, the titles will not tell the voters what the Bills propose to do and I feel the House will agree that there should be a definite statutory arrangement for informing voters of these proposals. The most convenient way of doing this is to include on the polling card to be issued to each voter a statement approved by the Oireachtas in relation to the proposals as has been done in relation to previous constitutional referenda. A further step to aid voters in distinguishing between the ballot papers at the forthcoming referenda is proposed at section 3 of the Bill. This section provides that a heading be printed on the front of each ballot paper indicating in large print the proposal to which the ballot paper relates. This provision, along with the measures I have already mentioned, should ensure that voters will not be confused when they come to cast their votes at the referenda.

Section 2 of the Bill provides for the taking of the poll at the forthcoming referenda on the basis of counties and county boroughs instead of Dáil constituencies. This change will apply only to the forthcoming referenda and is being made because the referenda are to be held so soon after the European and local elections. The polls at these elections are being organised on a county basis and it should greatly facilitate local returning officers at the referenda if they can simply repeat the arrangements they made such a short time earlier. The polls at any future referenda will, of course, be held on the basis of Dáil constituencies.

I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): It is a pity that the country is to be burdened with these referenda on 5 July, so shortly after the European Assembly elections and the local elections on 7 June. I appreciate that the reason for having separate days for the elections is that people might be confused. However, I doubt that they would be confused because people are sufficiently educated and sufficiently intelligent to follow four ballot papers instead of two or five instead of three. The first time that we ever had two national decisions taken on the same day was in 1937 when the people voted on the Constitution referendum, and in a general election. In 1945 the people voted on the election of the President and in the local elections on the same day. That meant that in many rural and urban areas people had three ballot papers to deal with and by and large they dealt with them intelligently and efficiently. It is amazing how well able the people are to handle and to deal with ballot papers. I can recall a case 25 years ago when two candidates with the same Christian and surnames appeared on the same ballot paper. It was thought that there would be utter confusion among the electorate, but when the election was over it was discovered that the people had used their votes for the man they had wanted to see elected.

Therefore, I think it is a pity that we are to have the local elections and the European elections on 7 June and then, within a month, these two referenda. That is not to say that we do not regard the referenda, particularly the referendum on adoption, as matters of great urgency. The same can be said, but to a lesser degree, about the referendum dealing with university representation in the Seanad. When we were dealing with the European Assembly Bill in the House we were assured without reservation by the Minister for the Environment that it was extremely unlikely any other election would be held simultaneously with the European election. We were given that assurance several times during that debate. Indeed the Minister put it so strongly as to say it was nearly unthinkable. Suddenly there was a change of view about that and we are now to have two elections together, with which I do not disagree.

There is not very much of a controversial nature in this Bill which is to provide the machinery for the holding of the referenda on 5 July. I agree it is a good thing to have in this Bill a synopsis of each of the Bills which are the subject matter of the referenda. Section 1 provides that the polling cards will be sent to postal voters and that they will contain a synopsis of the Bills.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Committee Stage is the time to raise matters of detail.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Bill puts a statutory obligation on the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to have these Bills made available in post offices throughout the country for free inspection there and put on sale there at 2½p. I hope that Minister will be able to implement that statutory obligation imposed on him by this Bill and I hope the Minister for the Environment can tell us if there are alternative proposals in mind for implementing that obligation, which is also mentioned in the explanatory memorandum. Two months ago if I had asked which proposals the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs had for implementing such a provision I would have been asked by the Minister now in the House if I thought the postal strike would go on for ever. However, in view of the turn of events meanwhile, there is not an assurance that the strike will have been settled by 5 July, though I could not help noticing this morning the absence of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs from a full turnout of Government members at the opening of business in the House. Let us hope he is engaged in what one might call a crash process to get that strike settled. However, in the event of his not succeeding or not trying—he has not done very well to date—we should be told of the alternative procedures for discharging the statutory obligation I have referred to.

We can deal with details on Committee Stage, but there is one matter of a general nature applying to all elections. It is the secrecy of the ballot. Unfortunately, recently there has been some doubt as to the absolute secrecy of the ballot in all elections. I am satisfied beyond doubt that there is absolute secrecy, not just considerable secrecy. I do not want to be scoring points on the Minister but it is my duty to remind Deputies that in reply to a question recently the Minister said it is extremely difficult to ascertain how a person has voted but that it is possible. He said that in case of a criminal offence the Garda might have to go through a very involved procedure in order to find out certain things.

I suggest the Minister was wrong when he answered that question off the cuff. It is not possible to find out how a person voted in an election, European or local, or in a referendum, and that should be shouted loud and clear and often in this House. The procedure in the not so olden days was that a ballot paper had a number and the same number was on the ballot paper counterfoil. The presiding officer wrote the voter's number on the counterfoil. That meant that when a person got the voter's number from the register and then had access to the counterfoils of the ballot papers he could wade through 30,000 or 40,000 ballot papers to find out how a person had voted. Somebody objected to that procedure and a High Court action was brought by a man named McMahon. The High Court held that the procedure violated the absolute secrecy of the ballot and accordingly declared and directed that the voter's register numbers no longer should appear on the ballot papers. That is the situation now—the voters' numbers do not appear on the ballot papers.

Mr. Barrett

That is so.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): Since that, provided the rules are observed and that the presiding officer carries out the directions given to him, it is absolutely impossible for anybody to find out how a person voted whether there is a legal case arising out of it or not. In view of the reply given to the parliamentary question and the doubts created thereby it is essential that the Minister should state clearly and without any doubt that the ballot is secret and that no person, official or unofficial, garda, judge, returning officer, Government Minister, politician or private individual can find out how a person votes. That is fundamental to the democracy that has operated here so far. In practice it was never possible to find out how a person voted. In theory it was possible, but it is not possible now even in theory. Let us have this explained clearly and all doubts wiped away. There are people in this country who would be fearful that it could be found out how they voted and it is only right and fair to those people that that should be clarified now. I thought it right to avail of this opportunity a week before the European Assembly elections and the local elections, and now a month before the referenda, to clarify that once and for all.

Mr. Quinn

I am grateful, and I am sure the House is grateful, to Deputy Fitzpatrick in his role of assuring those thousands of Fianna Fáil voters that when they desert Fianna Fáil for the first time it will be in the total secrecy of a ballot and that in no way can their desertion—or perhaps their finding the true way—be discovered even in the Customs House or anywhere else. It is a useful clarification that should be made because there is always the person you meet on canvass who tells you that they will get you in the end because they can open up the black boxes somewhere down in the basement of the Customs House and find out who voted in the postal vote or in such and such an area.

This is enabling legislation and I do not propose to take up the time of the House. The Minister is setting a good example simply by introducing the Bill and saying exactly what he proposes to do.

It is right and proper that in this year, the International Year of the Child, he should at last see the right of adopted children declared a basic human right and that the Constitution is amended subsequently to ensure that adopted children have those rights that were denied to them in the past. Everybody in this House has either direct or indirect contact with adopted children and with the parents of adopted children and knows exactly the importance of this legislation. It is a good move and I congratulate the Minister present for moving quickly to have it copper-fastened in the Constitution.

The other referendum is in relation to universities and I understand that my colleague, Deputy Horgan, will be talking about that. Again, that is enabling legislation that will enable this House, the elected representatives of the people, to enact laws democratically without being hidebound by detailed provisions of a constitution from another age.

With regard to the proposals for the referenda, one can put the obvious question mark about how it is proposed to send out the cards and so forth to the electorate. In fairness to the Minister present, that is not his problem departmentally. However, in view of the nature of the two measures and in view of the fact that there will not in effect be any kind of party political campaign, and because it is important that each elector receives a printed card with the two proposals on it, in view of the unholy possibility that the postal dispute is still in operation on 5 July, I hope that the Minister has retained for himself some capacity to postpone these referenda until such time as there is a fully functioning postal service. It would be a mistake if we proceeded on 5 July in the event of a continuing postal dispute or of interrupted and uneven postal services. I have scanned the Bill and I see no specific mention of the date 5 July. Perhaps the Minister will inform me and the House that he retains, by way of an administrative device, the capacity to postpone the day without interfering with this legislation. That is essential, and I hope the Minister can address himself to that point.

Secondly, what information campaign do the Government propose to undertake in relation to both these measures? Which Government Department will be responsible for it? Both are non-contentious measures essentially as far as the political parties in the Dáil and also in the other House are concerned. Therefore, the kind of information that a political campaign normally generates by way of contesting parties informing the electorate is going to be absent. Perhaps the Minister would indicate which Government Department will be responsible for informing the public on both referenda. What proposals, if any, exist at this stage? As a follow-up to that, will the Minister indicate what the estimated cost of these referenda will be and if a provisional budget has been made for an information campaign?

Committee Stage will give us ample room to deal with the procedures relating to the way in which the vote will be counted and all the other matters. I will conclude Second Stage by saying that we welcome the response of the Minister. I have some personal reservations about splitting the referenda from 7 June to a separate date, but I understand the logic of it and I can see why it has been done. Anyhow, the decision has been made. I hope to co-operate fully with the House in order to get this measure passed. If the Minister has the information available perhaps he will reply to the questions I have raised.

Minister for the Environment (Mr. Barrett)

I thank the Deputies for their contributions and for their appreciation of the fact that there is an urgency about getting this Bill through both Houses in order to hold the referenda on 5 July.

Deputy Fitzpatrick made the point that when we were debating the European Assembly Bill in the House I said that it would be extremely unlikely or probably would not happen that there would be more than one election on the date of the European Assembly elections. It is true that I did express that opinion, but I remind the Deputy that we were debating that Bill in the context of the European elections taking place in May 1978, which was the date set for those elections. As we know now, those elections were postponed until later and now they clash with the date for our local elections at the end of five years. The Deputy was right in saying what he said, but he did not seem to remember that we were talking about the European Assembly elections being in May 1978 at that time.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Minister said that the European people did not want any other elections on the same day to take away from the importance of the European one. Perhaps I am wrong.

Mr. Barrett

I would not remember off the top of my head if I said that, but at the time, we were preparing for the May 1978 European elections.

With regard to the points made by Deputy Quinn about the date of these referenda, that is fixed by order which will come after the Bill has been signed by the President. That will be done at that time.

Mr. Quinn

Has the Minister then flexibility to alter the date?

Mr. Barrett

The date is set by order and we consider that a suitable date for holding the referenda. There is an urgency about the referenda, particularly the one on adoption. If we do not hold the referenda in July they will probably have to wait until the autumn and we do not want that to happen.

Mr. Quinn

Can we take it that the postal dispute will be over by 5 July?

Mr. Barrett

I do not know that. I can account only for those for which I have some responsibility.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Minister can have a bet as well as the next man and he would not like to bet on that.

Mr. Barrett

It would very much depend on the odds. With regard to the secrecy of the ballot, on which we had questions recently, what I was endeavouring to say, amidst interruptions at the end of Question Time then, was that the number on the electoral list no longer appears on the ballot paper. Some people seemed to misunderstand me—not Deputy Fitzpatrick—when I was talking about the serial number, the same as is on the counterfoil. It is true to say that how a person voted would not and should not be traced. But in the extreme it is just possible—that is the point I made—because there is the number on the counterfoil and on the ballot paper. I am not trying to establish doubts in people's minds. But it is not possible if everything is done in a regular manner. If there were irregularities it is just possible but it is not possible if the rules are adhered to. That is the point I want to clarify. It is quite true to say it is not possible because the rules will be adhered to.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): But surely a presiding officer should be sacked, and I think prosecuted, if he made it possible because he could make it possible only by putting the voter's number on the counterfoil.

Mr. Barrett

Of course that should happen to any such presiding officer, but I say that if the rules are adhered to, it is not possible. Therefore, there should be no doubt in people's minds in that respect.

With regard to the point made by Deputy Fitzpatrick about the Bill being posted in post offices, I should say that that can still be done. General post offices are the only ones which are closed; all the sub post offices are open and, out of the total number of post offices in the country, there are 80 closed at present. Therefore it is quite possible and feasible for the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to comply with that obligation. Reverting to the postal strike, being an optimist, I hope it may be over by that time.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not dealing with the postal strike now.

Mr. Barrett

I appreciate that, sir.

Mr. Quinn

Is it by accident or design that the sun falls only on that side of the Chamber, that it never shines over here?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has no control over that.

Mr. Barrett

The sun always shines on Fianna Fáil. It will shine on them next week also despite what Deputy Quinn said about people drifting away and so on—it will still shine on Fianna Fáil.

Minister for Justice (Mr. G. Collins)

The Deputy should be reasonable and sensible.

Mr. Kelly

That is the kind of arrogance I have seen put the party opposite out three times in my lifetime.

Mr. Quinn

Has the Minister got information at present on the referenda campaign and the Government Departments who are responsible?

Mr. Barrett

No, my responsibility is to get this Bill through the House. There are two other Departments responsible for the referenda. My colleague beside me, the Minister for Justice, is responsible for the one on adoption and the Minister for Education for the one on the Seanad voting.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 30 May 1979

Referendum (Amendment) Bill, 1979: Second Stage.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 May 1979