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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 May 1979

Vol. 314 No. 11

Garda Síochána Bill 1979: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

(Cavan-Monaghan): I had just risen to speak when we reached 1.30 and the House adjourned. The Bill we are discussing is a Bill entitled an Act to provide for certain validations arising out of the dismissal of Commissioner Edmund Garvey and the attempted appointment of his successor, Commissioner McLaughlin. The facts which led to this Bill do not confer any great glory on the Minister for Justice or the Government.

The former commissioner of the Garda Síochána, Mr. Garvey, was wrongly dismissed without notice, without reason and without an opportunity to defend himself. The decision to dismiss him was obviously made and implemented in a hurry. It is hard to see why there was such a hurry because I believe the decision was on the cards a considerable time before that. When Deputy O'Keeffe opened the debate for this party this morning he asked the Minister if before the last election he had taken a decision to dismiss Mr. Garvey or if anybody on his behalf had done so. The Minister stated that he had taken no such decision, or had given no such public notice or had no knowledge of it. I presume that report will appear in tomorrow's newspapers. Thousands of people all over the country will not accept that they will become more cynical of politicians and that is bad for democracy and the country. I say that because it is a well-known fact that before the last general election canvassers of the Minister's party canvassed certain houses on the basis that if Fianna Fáil were returned to power Commissioner Garvey would be removed from office. That is common knowledge.

Were there votes in it?

(Cavan-Monaghan): That is the standard Deputy Allen applies——

There must have been the way the Deputy is talking.

Deputy Allen will get his chance in a moment.

(Cavan-Monaghan): I know thousands of people will not accept the Minister's denial of knowledge for the reasons I have given. Part of the Fianna Fáil campaign was conducted on the basis that Commissioner Garvey would be removed from office if Fianna Fáil were returned to office.

Commissioner Garvey was removed from office in January 1978. He brought an action in the High Court— not a simple, wrongful dismissal action as the Minister would in his introductory speech lead us to believe—for a declaration, among other things, that he was wrongfully removed from office because he had been denied his fundamental and constitutional rights in that he was removed from office without notice, without being given any reasons and without being given an opportunity to defend himself. The Supreme Court held by a majority of four to one that the attempted dismissal of Commissioner Garvey was null and void and of no effect because he had been denied his natural and fundamental rights by the Government. That is the enormity of this case. We had the Chief of Police, the officer holding one of the most important public posts in this country, being thrown out like a dog, removed from office, without being afforded his natural and fundamental rights of defending himself. That is a very serious situation because the Government of the day are bound to uphold the Constitution, to uphold the laws of the land and to afford to civil servants and others the protection that the laws and the Constitution give them.

I want to put it on the record of this House that the Government must have known they were violating the constitutional and natural rights of Commissioner Garvey. An ordinary five-eighths in the street would not be excused for committing a wrongful act if his only excuse was that he did not know the law. There is an old maxim we all learned as students, ignorantia legis neminem excusat, which means ignorance of the law is no excuse. In this case the Government must have known the law because several decided cases were quoted in the Supreme Court in support of Commissioner Garvey's case. The most recent case was as recent as 1971, the case of Ian Ray Haughey, which is reported in Irish Reports. In that case the law which guided the Supreme Court in Commissioner Garvey's case was laid down then by the then Chief Justice, the late Mr. Justice O Dalaigh, in very clear terms.

There are other cases on record which substantiated and laid down the law as applied by the Supreme Court in this case. One would think, listening to the Minister for Justice this morning, that the Government were taken by surprise, that the Supreme Court had created new law, and I would not be going too far if I were to say, that they laid down law which the Minister and the Government do not accept. That is not the case. The law is well settled and is well known. The Government, in violation of that law and in the teeth of those decisions, decided that they would dismiss Commissioner Garvey at two hours' notice without ever mentioning the word resignation, retirement or dismissal to him, as the Minister admitted this morning.

The Minister seemed to run his case on the basis that the Government were in some way taken by surprise and that the Supreme Court decision was a short cut that prejudiced them. I want to protest in the strongest possible terms against that. If anybody outside this House made the speech the Minister made this morning, it would be bordering on contempt of court. The Minister made a lot of play about the fact that the appeal brought from the High Court to the Supreme Court was on what he called a preliminary issue. There was only one issue in this case and it was not a preliminary issue. Commissioner Garvey in his statement of claim pleaded that he was wrongfully dismissed because he was not given notice, he was not given reasons for his dismissal and he was not given an opportunity of defending himself. The Government in their defence simply and solely relied on the Garda Síochána Act, 1925, which they claimed gave them the right to dismiss Commissioner Garvey without notice, without reasons and without giving him an opportunity of defending himself. That was the only issue in this case and that was the issue that went to the Supreme Court.

The Minister was critical of the Supreme Court and seemed to be making great play of the fact that some sort of preliminary point went to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court can only adjudicate on questions of law on acts, facts that are either proved in the High Court or admitted by the parties in the Supreme Court. In this case the facts were admitted. The facts were that Mr. Garvey said he was dismissed without notice, without reason and was given no chance of defending himself. The Government said: "We agree but we were entitled to do that by virtue of the 1925 Act." That was the only issue before the Supreme Court. Lawyers and, I am sure, Ministers know that there is vast scope for alternative pleading in defence. For example, in a murder case a person may plead: "I did not kill A and, if I did kill him, I killed him in self-defence and I did not use any more force than was necessary." That is a simple example of alternative pleading. There are other alternative pleadings in running down actions where a man says: "I did not own the motor car; I was not there" and "If I did own the motor car and I was there, I did not drive too fast." That is alternative pleading. But the Government here, having the best brains in the country behind them, did not choose to put in any alternative pleading in their defence: they simply relied on the 1925 Act to dismiss this man on two hours' notice without reason and without giving him any chance to defend himself.

The Government bungled Commissioner Garvey's dismissal and if we take seriously the Minister's contribution this morning, they bungled the defence of the action brought by Mr. Garvey against them, putting it at its best, if what the Minister says is right. This Government could be regarded as the Government of bunglers because we have one bungle after another from them.

The only thing they are good at is suspending Deputies who get a bit rowdy.

Deputy Fitzpatrick is in possession. Let Deputy Kelly not get rowdy at this stage.

(Cavan-Monaghan): This Bill invites the House to validate retrospectively everything Commissioner McLaughlin did or authorised to be done when he was appointed in January 1978 until he was reappointed on 15 May 1979. Retrospective legislation is bad at any time; it is undesirable. But when we have, as we have here, an attempt to validate retrospectively actions relating to the personal and perhaps fundamental rights of members of the Garda Síochána who have been dismissed, demoted, retired or asked to retire, it is a very serious thing.

We also have here an invitation to the House to validate retrospectively defective proofs in criminal cases. It is unthinkable. The Minister is not entitled to come here with this form of blank cheque validation and ask the House to vote him these extraordinary powers. When the Minister spoke this morning he outlined some of the things that would need validation. For example, a person who was arrested under the 1939 Act can be held for 24 hours and, if he is then to be held for a further 24 hours, the extension must be authorised by a chief superintendent or by somebody authorised by the commissioner to discharge the duties of chief superintendent under this Act. I want the Minister to say if any such people have been held for 48 hours under the direction of a superintendent under the authority of Commissioner McLaughlin. If they were, I suggest they were wrongfully detained.

My next question to the Minister is: did any of those people make statements while in custody for the second 24 hours and, if so, were any of them convicted on foot of those statements, because in my opinion if they did make statements during the second 24 hours and were convicted on foot of such statements their conviction could not possibly stand because I think there have been decisions of the courts in recent times that such statements are not voluntary statements, not admissible and not admitted. We are being inivited to validate that. It is impossible for me to go through all the Acts of Parliament and find out the duties that a commissioner might exercise in relation to criminal prosecutions or the duties he might authorise somebody else to discharge in that regard; but if there are any such—I have outlined one of them—we are being invited to validate them here. That is wrong and the House should not be asked to do it.

I do not know if any members of the Garda Síochána have been dismissed on the authority of Commissioner McLaughlin but I believe members were dismissed between January 1978 and May 1979 and it might well be held—I am not saying this as a matter that is as positive as the last one—that their dismissal is wrongful and, on bringing a case to the courts, such dismissal might be held to be wrongful.

In my opinion this Bill will lead to a chapter of legal actions of one sort or another, constitutional and otherwise. Have any people, members of the Garda Síochána or otherwise, suffered as a result of the wrongful dismissal of Commissioner Garvey and the wrongful appointment of Commissioner McLaughlin? Have there been any promotions within the Garda Síochána which could be questioned? Have any people been passed over who might have expected promotion if there has not been a change? Is it a fact that a panel of people suitable for promotion from the position of superintendent to that of chief superintendent is drawn up each year by a selection board appointed by the commissioner? Is it a fact that the panel drawn up by that selection board is valid for approximately 12 months? Was there a panel of superintendents suitable for promotion to the position of chief superintendent decided upon by a selection board set up in a normal way during the last months of Commissioner Garvey's term of office? Were there any vacancies for chief superintendents in existence during that time? Were these vacancies filled by superintendents on the panel drawn up by the selection board? I would ask the Minister to give this information in his reply.

Was the panel ignored during the last months of Commissioner Garvey's term of office because the Government did not appoint a chief superintendent? Was another selection board prematurely set up shortly after Commissioner McLaughlin wrongfully assumed office and did they draw up another panel of superintendents suitable for promotion to the rank of chief superintendent? Did the second panel consist of superintendents who had not applied for a number of years previously, even before the term of office of Commissioner Garvey? Were the superintendents on that second panel deemed suitable for promotion instead of those on the panel drawn up in the normal way by the selection board set up by Commissioner Garvey? Were they promoted while the people on the previous panel were ignored and passed over? Is this the case? If so, it is something the House should not be asked to validate without a more detailed and acceptable explanation.

I would not be a party to validating it, as I would not be a party to validating a prison sentence on somebody who should be at large today if the law as it stood at the time of his conviction and sentence were known and applied. People can be convicted of a criminal offence only under the law as it stands and on proofs which are acceptable to the court at the time of conviction. Such people having been convicted on defective proofs and sentenced, it is wrong that we should be asked retrospectively to say that the proofs were in order and that it was right to extend the terms of detention.

We are dealing with an extremely serious matter concerning whether the head of the police was properly dismissed and whether his successor was properly appointed. Above all we are being asked to give a blanket ratification and validation to every act carried out by the present commissioner during the period from January 1978 to May 1979. I can see that some form of legislation is necessary to get the Government out of this mess, but the procedure proposed here is certainly not acceptable. There should be a Schedule to this Bill and at least each category, if not each act that the Bill seeks to validate, should be spelled out. The House would then know what it should validate and what it should not.

Section 1 of this Bill states:

Everything (including the satisfying of any condition precedent to the exercise or performance of a power or duty) done, or purporting to have been done, during the period from the 20th day of January, 1978, to the 14th day of May, 1979, by, to or on behalf or in respect of Patrick McLaughlin or any other person shall be, and be deemed always to have been, as valid and effectual as if the said Patrick McLaughlin had been validly and effectually appointed to be Commissioner of the Garda Síochána on the said 20th day of January, 1978; and the pay and other conditions of service of the said Patrick McLaughlin as a member of the Garda Síochána shall be, and be deemed always to have been, as if he had been so appointed on the last-mentioned day.

Nothing could be more comprehensive than that or more nearly presented in the form of a blank cheque. Some form of legislation is necessary, but I have no sympathy for the Government and the Minister for Justice because of the mess in which they find themselves. They brought it on themselves because of the preconceived ideas which the Minister for Justice had on assuming office. I regret to have to say that.

I will prove the Deputy very wrong.

The Deputy should not proceed on those lines. He is getting into matters which are before the courts and he is aware of that.

I will prove the Deputy very wrong and I suggest that he talk to Senator Cooney. I am giving the Deputy fair warning.

(Cavan-Monaghan): We do not want any more blackmail. The Minister should come out in the open.

Deputy Fitzpatrick should get away from matters that are likely to arise in the courts.

The Minister should speak frankly about this matter and not persist in hinting.

We might as well be trying to get him to abolish ground rents.

There is nothing in the Bill about ground rents.

There was in another document.

We are not discussing that document now.

(Cavan-Monaghan): Deputy Harte earlier identified the last portion of the Minister's speech as being out of line with the remainder. He described it as being the Minister's own composition. In my view it is a lot of blackmail, a disgraceful heap of it and it is unworthy of the Minister and the Government.

I will knock the Deputy back on his tracks when he hears me.

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Minister had his opportunity this morning and he will have it again.

I gave my reasons this morning.

The Deputy should be allowed to continue without interruption. We cannot go into the reasons because they are matters which are before the courts.

If the Minister has something to say he should say it now.

There are a lot of things Deputies are anxious to say but they cannot do so and I have pointed that out.

If the Minister has anything to say he should have said it in his opening speech.

(Cavan-Monaghan): It will take more than mud like that to get two seats for the Minister's party in Connacht-Ulster.

Matters in Connacht-Ulster do not enter into this discussion.

Will the Deputy's party give the first one to Senator Cooney, like they did in Longford-Westmeath?

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Minister should be ashamed of himself.

The election next week can be fought outside the House.

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Chair should control the Minister.

If the Minister has something to say about Senator Cooney he should say it in the Upper House.

Deputy Fitzpatrick is in possession and everybody else should keep silent. The only person with a right to interrupt him is the Chair.

(Cavan-Monaghan): If the Minister would say outside the House what he is saying by innuendo here about Senator Cooney, it would cost him more than £28,000. The Minister should say what he has to say outside the House. I accept that some sort of legislation is necessary to get the Government out of the mess they got into but I do not have any sympathy for the Government. This form of legislation is not the right way to go about this matter. Let the Minister bring in a Bill every fortnight to validate actions of the commissioner he wrongfully appointed and let those Bills be considered by the House. It is unheard of and an outrageous performance to bring in such an omnibus piece of legislation. It was wrong to introduce it with a speech that was obviously couched in blackmailing terms. It was wrong of the Minister to make further threats of blackmail against a former Minister who is still a respected Member of the Oireachtas. The Minister should not treat Senator Cooney as he has treated Commissioner Garvey, by giving him no chance to defend himself and throwing him out by the back of the neck.

I did not throw Senator Cooney out of this House. That was done by his own party, who selected Deputy L'Estrange in preference to him.

Senator Cooney is not in the discussion.

If the Minister had something to say about Senator Cooney he should have said it in his opening speech and we would have given him his answer. He should not be sneaking in comments at this stage.

I did not cause Senator Cooney to lose his seat.

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Minister is well aware that I am speaking about Commissioner Garvey who was thrown out by the back of the neck at two hours' notice. Not alone has Commissioner Garvey been wrongfully dismissed and denied his constitutional and fundamental rights, but he has been badly treated also. He was in the Garda Síochána for 40 years and rose through the ranks without putting a foot wrong. He was treated in a disgraceful fashion. It is a good job that we have the courts to protect men like him. I have known Commissioner McLaughlin since he was a young guard and the unkindest thing that could have been done to him was what the Minister did, to appoint him improperly so that he, through no fault of his own, finds himself in the middle of this debate.

Our citizens as a last resort rely on the courts for protection, the most important of those being the Supreme Court, and it is a sorry day for Ireland when the Minister for Justice by innuendo and implication attacks the Supreme Court as he did today. The Supreme Court decided that Commissioner Garvey had been deprived of his natural and constitutional rights by a majority of four to one. The Government could not accept that decision and tried to wobble and waffle. They went back to the Supreme Court for an interpretation of that court's decision and got that interpretation, not by a majority of four to one but by a unanimous decision of the four judges. In the light of that it is disgraceful that the Minister who bungled the dismissal of Commissioner Garvey badly, and slandered the other team, as a last resort should beat the referee. There is no use in the Minister accusing his legal advisers.

The Minister invoked with a lot of respect the sub judice rule in the course of his speech. This is a rule which is recognised in this House as a matter of courtesy—although there certainly is no other reason for recognising it, because no legal proceedings can ensue in respect of things said in the House—and recognised outside the House as a matter of law because a breach of the rule may amount to contempt of court. But we must get it clear in our minds what the sub judice rule means and what its purpose is. It is mentioned here as though it were a sacred thing with almost religious dimensions, as though the mere fact that a situation or an element of anything at all happened to feature in any shape or form in any sort of court proceedings in any part of the country at any time prevented anything being said about it here. The sub judice rule and the rule about contempt of court is part of the ordinary Common Law.

The Deputy appears to be debating something with the Chair. The Chair suggests that the Deputy take this matter to the Committee of Procedure and Privileges. It is a rule that is as old as the House.

I am quoting from the Minister's speech. There is no one in the House I have more regard for than the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, but he torments me on a matter like this. It would not have crossed my mind to mention the sub judice rule had the Minister not sanctimoniously invoked it to excuse himself for not giving the full background which, as Deputies Fitzpatrick and O'Keeffe said, is simply known now as innuendo. The Minister said “I could, if I would, if I dared, but I cannot because it is sub judice and I am a good boy and will respect the rule so that I cannot tell of all the dirt I could fire out if I were allowed to do so”. I will give way to the Minister, provided I can get back again, if the Minister wishes to give us the background now.

The sub judice rule has been made relevant by a vital part of the Minister's speech. The Constitution says that no proceedings can be had, criminal or civil in any court at all, in respect of anything said in this or in the other House. The purpose of that is not to allow licence for loose and long tongues. The purpose of it is so that Members of these Houses can speak their minds freely and without the fear of criminal prosecutions or actions in which they may be ruined from an award of damages. That privilege ought not to be abused and any comment on court proceedings which takes the form of abuse, which is something which would be objectional even outside the House, naturally ought to attract the sanction of the Chair. But this thing about the sub judice rule has gone beyond all bounds in this House.

It is not the case that the courts are in any way prejudiced, offended or affronted or that their function is called into question or diminished in any way by reference being made to a case before them. The purpose of the rule is to protect the integrity of the courts and so as not to subject the judges to pressure along the lines of us telling them what they should do. Any Member of the House who took it upon himself to lecture judges about what they should do would be abusing the privilege of the House, but any Member who merely makes a comment about something which the Minister is free to say outside the House is not doing so, and when the Minister piously invokes the sub judice rule in relation to something he is free to discuss outside the House I have to ask myself if the thing has not gone beyond all bounds.

The Minister said, on pages 9 and 10 of his speech:

I said, at the beginning of my statement, that I would return to the question of the initial decision of the Government and to the circumstances in which a decision of the Supreme Court was sought by both sides in the legal proceedings. I do not, however——

——one could nearly see the incense arising from the halo balanced on his ears——

——consider it appropriate to go into these matters in any detail, at all events on this occasion, and for a number of reasons. One of the reasons, and a sufficient one by itself alone, is that certain important related issues are before the High Court and, in accordance with long established practice, we ought to avoid issues that are sub judice.

That is not a proper view of what sub judice is all about. The Minister is absolutely entitled to state, not only here but outside, his side of the case. The Minister can print his side of the story in a newspaper and he will not be in contempt of court. The Minister is entitled to defend himself in or out of court or in or out of the House. To try to avoid saying what the House wants to debate, namely, what led up to the Garvey dismissal, by saying “this is still before the courts and since I am devoted to protocol and to the rules of the House, I will not say anything at all about it” is unworthy of the Minister. I do not wish to use hard words about a Minister whom I find it hard to dislike. I suspect that there is some termite either in the Minister's party or in his team of advisers who told him that this was a cute way out of the difficulty, which a Minister, if he had been Senator Cooney, would have faced up to and led with his chin in dealing with it.

There is no reason why the Minister should not tell his side of the story in here. It would be quite a different thing to threaten the courts or say to the High Court that they must decide in a certain way, but there is no reason why the Minister should not tell the story. I could be wrong, as the present Attorney General was wrong in the Garvey incident, or as the lawyers on the Government front benches—the Taoiseach, a barrister, the Minister for Finance a solicitor, the Minister for Forestry and Fisheries a barrister, Deputy Haughey, also a qualified barrister, Deputy O'Malley, a solicitor and Deputy O'Kennedy, a barrister who practised up to the day the Government was formed—are wrong; but to represent the sub judice rule as forbidding a litigant—and the Minister is in the position of a litigant—from telling a story as freely as he likes when and where he chooses is a misrepresentation of the rule.

To try to point to the courts what they should do or to insinuate that they are not doing their job or are likely to make a wrong decision is an affront and should be discouraged, although even there a situation could arise in which it might be in the public interest that a Minister or a Deputy spoke his mind on a court decision about which he thought little. This is a free country, which means that it is possible not only to speak one's mind about political parties but also about court proceedings, provided one stops short of bringing pressure, even moral pressure in the sense of telling the judges how to perform their function. It is in the interests of all of us that no one should be allowed to pressurise the courts, but once the courts have made a decision one should be able to speak one's mind about it. That is part of what freedom is all about and it is part of and not far from what I had occasion to say at the time of the row between the then President Ó Dálaigh and the then Minister for Defence. There is far too much pietistical half sincere respect paid to totemistic concepts which were inherited from the British, but invested by the Irish with the peculiar sham and humbug which flourishes in a country which has been ruled during nearly all my lifetime by the party opposite.

There is no reason why the Minister should not have told his story. What is central to this story—and if I am wrong the Minister can stuff it down my throat—was the political need of the Government to deliver on the whispered promises which they had been making to the Garda Síochána before the election. That and nothing else is what is central to this story. It is because I consider that such an unworthy history and background that I have not one blind bit of sympathy for the Minister in the mess in which he finds himself. I realise that all around him there is nothing to be seen but Ministers waist deep in trouble of all description, so that Minister Collins is no exception. All he has to do is to look around him and he will see Ministers who can barely show their heads, so unpopular have they made themselves and their party in Government. I have not one blind bit of sympathy for him in this problem because it arose, not because of a genuine mistake or difficulty which arose between the Government after it was formed and the Commissioner whom they found awaiting them in the Phoenix Park; it arose out of a political commitment which they gave, admittedly not in their manifesto—although it would not have been any more valuable had it been in the manifesto—but which they gave via whispers before the election, that if Fianna Fáil got back, that would be the end of Commissioner Garvey. That has to be said. I followed most of the debate here this morning.

The Chair has already ruled against giving reasons. These are matters for the court. The Deputy has made his case about what is sub judice and what is not. What the Chair is dealing with is the practice of the House down the years and the Chair must adhere to that practice. Those are the rules of the House.

All right, I shall not labour this point. But this is not a case of an unlucky mistake. Let us say that, by an oversight, the Government order which purported to appoint Commissioner McLaughlin had not been sealed with a Government seal—I am not sure exactly by what instrument the Commissioner is appointed—but if the instrument had not been perfected according to the relevant rules, the appointment would have been just as invalid as if there had been no commissionership to appoint to, which is what was the case here because the commissionership was already occupied by a man whose purported sacking was ineffectual. If it was an unlucky mistake, an accident, this Bill would have been through the House in 30 seconds, all Stages; the Minister knows that. But if ever a Minister or Government asked for this special trouble, they asked for it. I do not want to bring Greek tragedy into the picture, but there is something peculiarly fitting about what has happened to them in this instance. All the components of the Greek tragedy are there, the hubris, the overbearing, arrogant pride with which they stepped into office and proceeded to step high wide and handsome about them, sacking a commissioner here, purporting to fulfil promises which they were only laughing at the people for believing, such as that about the ground rents. And now the nemesis: the pit which they dug for Commissioner Garvey they have fallen into themselves. I have not a bit of sympathy for them and neither has anybody else on this side of the House.

Having said that, I recognise that the Minister opposite me here cannot be made to carry personally 100 per cent of the blame for this. He is part of a collective authority. It may be that the advice on which that particular authority acted was mistaken, and anybody can make a mistake, a lawyer or otherwise. But when I find that the Minister this morning confronts us with a speech like this, if ever I was inclined to have any sympathy with him, that inclination would be dissolved absolutely. I had better not use impolite language but, when the Minister talks about the Government losing confidence in Mr. Garvey as Commissioner, that really touches bottom in disingenuousness.

I will tell the House when the Government lost confidence in Mr. Garvey; they lost confidence in him around the month of April 1977, before they were in office at all. They lost confidence in him, not because they had ever experience of him as Commissioner, which they had not, on the contrary—as Deputy Harte and Deputy O'Keeffe said here earlier—they had promoted him, all the promotions he had had been from them. They lost confidence in him because they were getting a feedback from the ranks before the election campaign that the methods of discipline which Commissioner Garvey stood for and was applying were not acceptable.

I am not a member of the Garda and I do not want to make any comment on those methods of discipline. The resentment against them may have been proper or improper. But I do say—and I have said it in the House before—that the Minister is buying big trouble for himself in the future—what we have today will be proved to have been only a trailer—if he ever allows it to be said or thought that a disciplined force on which the State depends is able to get rid of their own boss. I read the editorial in the Garda Síochána Review in its next issue after the physical departure of Commissioner Garvey from the Phoenix Park. It made sorry reading; because it came through clearly as if it had been written in black and white that the force considered that they had been material in effecting this change at the top.

There are things I do not want to prejudge or offer any comment on, because I do not know anything about them. I do not know whether or not Commissioner Garvey was a correct disciplinarian. It is admitted on all sides that he was doing his job with honesty, honour and sincerity, but it may be that his disciplinary methods were not apt ones for the year 1977 or 1978. The world has changed and perhaps one cannot employ discipline in the same way nowadays as once one could. That may be the case. It may be the case that the personnel in the various ranks of the Garda who were subordinate to him and who had to put up with these disciplinary methods were entitled to feel aggrieved. It may be the case that they had a genuine and correct grievance. If so, it should have been dealt with with something more than the lack of feeling and instinct which we have met here. Most certainly it should not, even at the cost of perpetuating for the couple of years which remained to him until his retirement, even at that cost, it should not be given to a disciplined force in this or any other country to say that they can call the tune to the extent of being able to dispose of their commanding officer.

I said here some six months ago in a different connection that if my interpretation of what happened is correct—maybe it is not correct—but if it is correct the Minister has bought big trouble for himself and for the rest of the country as well. If the Garda are allowed to feel at election time that they can bring pressure of this kind to bear and that the biggest party in the country are willing to respond to them, would have crawled on their hands and knees to them in order to get their votes and those of their families and relations, what will they do next time round? What promises will they expect from Fine Gael and the Labour Party? What competing promises will be expected from Fianna Fáil, not alone for the Garda but for everybody else in the country? The Minister and his party may have bought a few thousand votes in that way. If I am correct in my interpretation of this history, this is the beginning only of the harvest they are reaping. Perhaps it is not a question of treachery, but there is an Irish seanfhocal which I think I remember learning in school: filleann an feall ar an bhfeallaire. If ever there was an ill deed which rebounded on the people who perpetuated it, this is an example.

I want to say this to the Minister—and again I do not offer it as the last word in legal knowledge or anything else; I may be absolutely wrong about this—this technique we are adopting in the House here today has never yet been constitutionally tested. I know there have been Acts which purported to validate, which I suppose may have validated, which with the lapse of time unquestionably did validate procedures which were defective in the past. It must be so in a country which consists of human beings, in which mistakes can happen and, unless they can be put right retrospectively, disorder is the result. But I do want to point out to the Minister and his advisers that the technique he is adopting here has never met a head-on constitutional challenge. For some reason, perhaps accidental only, no constitutional challenge has ever been presented head-on to an enactment of this kind; or at least, if it has, it escapes my recollection. For example, we had here in 1923, after the Civil War, an Indemnity Act, which purported to render non-actionable, if I remember correctly, whatever might have been done without lawful authority by the agents or forces of the Provisional Government or of the Irish Free State Government. It was a very drastic and wide-ranging Act. I have often wondered—merely as an academic exercise—what constitutional authority there could be, at least in the present constitutional climate, for the passage of an Act of Indemnity which would effectively attempt to legalise that which was illegal.

I want to give the Minister my view for what it is worth. Perhaps it can be done, and perhaps the Minister may get the Supreme Court to say it can be done but I would not regard it by any means as an open-and-closed question. I would not regard it as settled beyond dispute because it never has been, so far as I know, argued out by any of our modern courts here, whether it is open to the State, retrospectively, to make legal that which is illegal.

I stated that where an irregularity occurs, which is accidental—I gave the instance of forgetting to sign or seal some appointments—validating Acts and sections in other Acts that nobody bothers much about because they are lost or not well known has to be possible. I do not expect an answer from the Minister because I do not know what the answer about it is. I believe the Minister is not shut of this matter when he leaves the House today, if he gets out of it today, because there are acts of Mr. McLaughlin which may have been done without lawful authority. Many of them were acts which in their nature were not apt to cause a grievance on the part of any citizen. Many of them were acts which would not have impinged in such a way on a citizen as to cause him to litigate or to feel a sense of grievance. I do not know if he has a function in regard to describing the areas where double yellow lines are painted on the streets or something of that kind. Even there, the possibility of something being agreed, for instance, a business concern who suddenly find their customers cannot park, are not to be entirely excluded.

A man spent three days in prison as a result of that.

As a result of the double yellow lines outside his shop?

If Deputy Barry is right even that instance will lend some weight to what I am saying. Many of the acts of Mr. McLaughlin would not cause anybody any grievance and would not have given anybody cause for complaint. But what about the acts of Mr. McLaughlin which may have caused grievance? They are in a quite different category because at the time they were done, although they were innocently done as far as Mr. McLaughlin was concerned, they were done in the purported exercise of an authority which it was not his to exercise, and which still resided in Commissioner Garvey.

I am sure if Deputy Harte is right in detecting two hands in the Minister's speech, one a fine Italian one and the other a Limerick one. The earlier part of the Minister's speech contains the following:

There is no injustice to anybody in the restrospective validation of those authorisations since they are authorisations that would have been granted, in accordance with well-established practice, irrespective of who was commissioner, and the invalidity of Mr. McLaughlin's original appointment has no material relevance to the decisions taken by the relevant superintendents.

Sherlock Holmes used a rather pompous little expression when he was hot on the trail of something in the gaslight and fogs of Victorian London. He used to say: "You may have heard of any little reputation I may possess. I will stake it all on the fact that your story is an absolute fabrication". Every lawyer feels that he knows a little about his subject. I do not mind staking anything I feel I know about my subject on the assertion that that sentence is completely wrong. It is correct only in the sense in which the word injustice might be used in a church or on a political platform but it is not correct in a legal setting.

The Minister must not forget that people are not entitled to justice. If they can get justice, well and good. What they are entitled to is the benefit of the law and the last letter of the law. They are entitled to the last morsel that can be extracted from the letter of the law. That is what is meant by the rule of the law. While I know what the Minister means in a general sort of way when he says that many of the authorisations he is talking about here—I realise also that it is only a restricted field of the commissioner's functions which is in play in this part of the speech—and a lot of what happened under Mr. McLaughlin would have happened anyway no matter who was commissioner and, therefore, somebody cannot complain, that is not true in the legal sense.

If I have committed a break-in, stolen a car or committed some offence and I am tried for it, convicted and sentenced to some penalty and I find afterwards that the judge who presided over my trial, conviction and sentence was dressed up as a judge, that he kidnapped the real judge and took his place on the bench that day and that the whole thing was a farce from start to finish, still in a sense no injustice was done. Even if there had been a proper judge on the bench the same thing would have happened to me.

But that is not the point relevant to a lawyer because a lawyer is entitled to extract the utmost morsel from the law for the benefit of his client. A citizen is entitled to the last morsel for his own benefit. If a citizen finds that he has been tried in front of a judge, whose appointment was invalid, the whole series of steps, the conviction, the sentence, the committal order which flow from that, are equally invalid. It is as though they all hung like a chain from the heavens and if you cut through one link of the chain high up, all the rest fall into the sea.

If the Minister does not believe me he will find that this point was made actually in regard to the appointment of a judge in 1951 by a litigant called Killian, who alleged—it was an academic point—that the judge by whom he had been tried for arson or something like that, had not been properly appointed. The reason he said he had not been properly appointed was that the courts which the Constitution envisaged were intended to be set up immediately after the enactment of the Constitution, and by 1951 they still had not been set up, so that whoever was still purporting to function as a judge was not in fact properly appointed at all.

That might seem a dim argument to a layman or a dim argument to a Minister willing to say that no injustice had been done because this or that would have happened anyway. The Supreme Court took it as a serious legal argument. They made it quite clear, by taking it seriously, that, had he succeeded in establishing—he lost because of his interpretation of the Constitution—that Judge McCarthy before whom he was tried had not been properly appointed, his conviction and his sentence would have been gone.

It is no good saying that no injustice has been done. To say a citizen is not entitled to justice does not explain what his rights are. He is entitled to justice, so far as the law can give it to him. If he is the recipient of a disposition on the side of a governmental authority, a police commissioner or anybody else, unless the State can show an unbroken link of authority between the disposition which requires from him the payment of a £10 fine, to the summit, unless all these steps represent an unbroken series of chains, without any weak link, the citizen is entitled to exploit the weak link in regard to what has been done to him as unlawful. The courts are there to assert that it is unlawful and to assert his right and to extract the uttermost drop from the law in his favour.

The consequence of the situation so far as concerns Mr. McLaughlin and the person who is still Commissioner Garvey, innocent though Mr. McLaughlin is in this regard, is that there may be people who were aggrieved by things done under Mr. McLaughlin. I am saying this as a category quite separate from things which were not a source of contention. Deputy Barry mentioned yellow lines, but let us assume that never happened. Taxi licences are highly contentious and I will deal with them in a moment. If something was done by Mr. McLaughlin at the time when he had no authority, that person has the right to feel aggrieved.

As Deputy Fitzpatrick said, let us look at somebody passed over for promotion. In consequence of the first of several names on the recommended list having been ignored and subsequent names substituted in their place, the people aggrieved by that proceeding might have had, and perhaps still have, a right of action in respect of the illegality of the appointments which were purported to be made.

I know the Bill is intended to put an end to all this. I know the purpose of the Bill is to deprive these people retrospectively of any possible right of action; but that is just the point at which the difficulties begin. Can it do that? I am not so much concerned here with the validity of the appointments of the inspectors or sergeants who were promoted. I am concerned with the grievance which might be felt by those who were not. I am also concerned with the people who applied for taxi driving licences who were refused them or conversely with the rights of existing taxi drivers who objected to new licences being granted.

The Minister probably realises that the atmosphere of the Supreme Court these days is very different from what it was 20 years ago. There is a very adventurous bench there now. They have built up whole new structures of rights which were undreamed of when I was a student or even when I was at the bar. One of these rights is the right to earn a livelihood. These are rights which are not mentioned in the Constitution, but are held now to be latent in the guarantees of Article 40.3. Corollary to the right of earning a livelihood is the right to embark on a career, train for a career and so on. In its application—and sooner or later it will be so applied—to a career which is part of a hierarchial structure, in which there is such a thing as promotion from step to step, I would say that the Supreme Court would not have any difficulty in holding that the right to a career and livelihood carried with it the right to fair chance of promotion.

I make no reflection, good or bad, or pass no comment, good or bad, on the quality, correctness or wisdom of the promotions or refusals to promote. They may have been very wise decisions for all I know. All I am saying is that a man who was passed over for promotion, or a taxi driver who was refused a licence or who might feel aggrieved by the fact that somebody was granted one, realises that the disposition about which he felt aggrieved was one without lawful authority. Therefore, he may have a right of action to ask the courts to set aside those purported disposition, to set aside those purported promotions and get the administrative authority concerned to open up the whole thing all over again.

Although the matter has not been explored I consider that there is a definite possibility that it is not open to these Houses retrospectively to cut off rights of action which people have, as the Minister for Fisheries would say "at this moment in time" by virtue of one very plausible reading of Article 34 or Article 40, vested constitutional rights. It may not be within the power of these Houses plus the President to divest those rights by the passage of a one-section bill.

The Minister knows by now he has put his foot into a nest of hornets. I do not get any degree of satisfaction from watching him suffer but I must warn him that, while this Bill may have the desired effect, I am not by any means sure it will. There are two precedents on the statute book—there may be more and if so I would be grateful, for personal reasons, if anybody would point them out to me—of specific attempts to cut off rights of action which were already vested. One was the Accidental Fires Act, 1943, which purported to render non-actionable damage resulting from a fire on neighbouring premises arising after a certain date. The Bill was drawn up in such a way that actions arising from the big fire—the fire in Athlone—would not be affected but there may have been other actions which were on the point of being launched at that time and which that Act purported to put a quick end to.

The constitutionality of that Act was never litigated. Even if it had been, it is possible that the Government may have got away with it because the spirit of Supreme Court in the mid-1940s was not as independent as the modern courts have come to be, and it is possible that Act might have passed muster. A few years later, inspired by the fact that they had got away with the Accidental Fires Act, the Government got both Houses to enact their Sinn Féin Funds Act, which purported to stop in mid-action a case which was brought to establish the ownership of funds left over from the old Sinn Féin organisation. That Act was shot down by Mr. Justice Gavan Duffy in the High Court and by a majority in the Supreme Court at least, and possibly unanimously.

I have not asked the Minister this question so far, and perhaps he does not know the answer. Are there in being at the moment actions against the Government, against Ireland, against himself or against any authority based on the lack of legal warrant for the acts of Mr. McLaughlin? The Minister may be in deep water if he supposes that merely to pass this one-section Bill will put an end to those actions. It may do so, but it is perfectly possible that it will not do so. Even if there are no actions in being that he knows of, even if he has not got on his desk statements of claim and summonses from such litigants, for all he knows there may be people even now consulting their legal advisers, or if they think about it tomorrow having read today's debate, they will tomorrow consult their legal advisers and issue proceedings designed to get back to square one with, say, a competition which resulted in a promotion or failure to promote. The Minister may be disappointed in his expectation that this Bill is going to cure them.

I think any Government must have—if only because it consists of human beings, as are all the people who work for it—room in reason and fairness to cure a technical defect retrospectively. But an instance like this is perhaps a bit different. I imagine that in a case like this the courts would look pretty jealously at what the Government here are up to. They might look at it in this light, that by a Bill of this kind the State is trying to give itself a privilege which the ordinary citizen cannot give himself—not just the State in its capacity as the State but in its capacity as a Minister who has made a bungle—I do not care how sincerely he may have acted or how solid the advice may have seemed to be which he received.

Effectively what this Bill seeks to do is to draw a veil over the bungle which the Minister committed. If I commit a bungle I cannot draw a veil over it. There is no machinery to enable me to validate or get an Act of Indulgence or Amnesty or Indemnity or Retrospective Validation which will cure bungles in my life. While I realise, as does the Constitution, that there is a difference of social function between citizens and the State, and that the State does not have to stand in all respects on the same footing as the citizen, here is a situation in which in the perspective of possible litigation the State and the litigant or prospective litigant are not being equally treated because the State is trying to get let off its side of the litigation. It is trying to let off its Minister or its representative, the Attorney General or whoever it is, by the invocation of a procedure, namely, the passage of a Bill, which the other litigant could not do for himself if the situation were reversed.

Naturally, I hope for the sake of all innocent people, from Mr. McLaughlin down, who have been involved in this sorry history, all rooted in the sick greed and ambition of the Fianna Fáil Party who sit in the Government benches, that this Bill will work, and it would be wrong for me to hope otherwise. But I want to give the Minister fair warning that I do not consider that an absolutely open-and-shut certainty.

Finally, I compliment the Minister's advisers and whoever it was who wrote at any rate most of his speech because it is a very clear setting-out of what he sees in the situation. It is not always that we get a series of speeches that are so well put together. I have had occasion to say that on a previous occasion; I think it was one of the constitutional amendments, perhaps it was the Adoption Bill. Obviously, the Minister is being very well served by the people who put words into his mouth.

In my opening speech I pointed out that the Supreme Court had held that the defence that had been filed on behalf of the Government did not contain a denial or at all events a sufficient denial of the various allegations that had been made in Mr. Garvey's statement of claim and that on that account the Government must, according to the court's ruling, be presumed to have accepted those allegations. I do not want to take the risk of its being said in relation to the many serious allegations made in the course of this debate that because I am not free to refute them at this point, on that account I am to be regarded as having accepted them.

It appears that on some issues at least a denial on my part is a waste of time. Deputy O'Keeffe, leading for the Fine Gael Party, began by asking for answers to two specific questions. The first was whether prior to the general election I had indicated that the commissioner would be sacked or removed from office. The second question was whether in the event that that had not happened I had any knowledge that other members of my party did so. Deputy O'Keeffe asked me for a categoric "yes" or "no" to those questions without, as I think he put it, any evasion. I intervened to give a categoric "no" to both questions only to find that a number of other Deputies completely disregarded what I had said. It is perfectly obvious, as the Chair has pointed out, that allegations that the Government did not act in good faith would be highly relevant to issues that may arise in the proceedings of the High Court and for that reason I regret that some Deputies in the full knowledge that legal proceedings were going on have nevertheless seen fit to make allegations which are without any foundation.

Certain criticisms were made of my opening speech. Deputy Horgan, for instance, picked up the phrase from it that one may feel hard done by as a result of a court decision, and he and others implied that this was a very serious criticism of the Supreme Court's decision. I wish to make two points about that. It is perfectly permissible for anybody in appropriate circumstances to criticise in a reasonable and reasoned way a decision of any court, including the Supreme Court. Individual judges themselves have been known to criticise—and in public—decisions of the court, including the Supreme Court.

To question, not to criticise.

Accordingly, even if what I have said were to be interpreted as a criticism of the Supreme Court it would not on that account be open to the charge of being improper or inappropriate. In fact I was referring to a very limited aspect of the case when I was speaking of the Government being hard done by in their opinion.

What about being aggrieved?

That was the fact that a decision on the substantive point was given by the Supreme Court in circumstances where no arguments or evidence about the merits of the background had been placed before either the High Court or the Supreme Court. I have made it clear that the Government felt aggrieved at that situation. In saying that I am saying nothing more or less than what has already been said in open court, in the High Court in fact by counsel for the Government when referring to the decision of the Supreme Court.

The second point to which I refer is the suggestion made by several Deputies that at the very end of my speech, by referring to the fact that there was a background to the Government's decision, I was endeavouring to damage Mr. Garvey by innuendo and in general indulging in argument about the merits of the dismissal while disclaiming any intention of doing so. I deny this categorically. I have not said or implied anything about the nature of the background, and while it is obvious and needs no stressing that in the Government's opinion the background justified their action, I in my speech made no claim that it justified the Government's action. I refrained from doing so on the basis that it would involve argument on the merits of what happened and this is precisely what should not be done at this stage in this House because it would be liable to raise issues which are sub judice in the High Court.

Deputy Harte paraphrased my remarks by saying that they meant I have a case to make which I cannot make at the moment but which I may make later. I accept that paraphrase, but I deny that anybody could reasonably claim that a person who says he has a case to make and will make it in due course is by that fact engaging in argument about the merits of the case he has to make or doing anything more than saying that he is not to be condemned unheard. What I have said I have said and I make no apology for it, nor do I withdraw anything I have said. I accept that because of the office I hold I have to observe constraints to which other Deputies do not feel themselves subject. That does not mean that I have to take it to the extent of not even saying that I have a defence and a very good defence to put up. It will be for others to judge in due course how good that defence will be.

Deputy Horgan also accused me of setting myself up as judge and jury when I said there is no injustice involved in validating authorisations given by superintendents under the Offences Against the State Act, 1939. He asserts that this is a matter which might be referred to a court for a decision and that I might be proved wrong. Of course I might, but when I say there is no injustice involved I am quite obviously putting forward an argument which is readily identifiable as being an argument. If every Deputy in this House were required to refrain from making any assertions without qualifying them by phrases such as "in my opinion", the normal process of debate would surely become impossible. It is clear to everybody who heard my speech that I was not attempting to pronounce on legal issues but to express what appears to me to be a very well-founded opinion.

I have been criticised for not giving a complete list of every power or function exercised or discharged by Mr. McLaughlin during the past 16 months. It would be impossible to be certain that any such list was complete. I gave what I believe to be a virtually complete list as it affects the public at large and certainly I did not deliberately omit anything.

I did not think it necessary to refer to any internal disciplinary matters in the Garda Síochána for the simple reason that they are internal matters in the Force and that anybody affected by them has open to him or her various methods of seeking redress. There was no concealment whatsoever in this. The House has already been officially informed in reply to a parliamentary question put to me at the beginning of this month by Deputy Harte that there were three dismissals in the year 1978, in other words, from the time Mr. McLaughlin took over until the end of 1978. There were no dismissals in 1979. I see no reason why disciplinary decisions should be excluded from the scope of the Bill. I believe there is no injustice whatsoever involved and the fact that Mr. McLaughlin's appointment was legally invalid had nothing to do with it. I submit that the Oireachtas ought to validate the disciplinary decisions. If any individual wishes to challenge such a validation as it would affect him, he is quite free to do so. If they were not validated by the Bill, the natural consequences would be that the procedures would have to be commenced all over again, an alternative which does not appear to offer any benefit to anybody other than the introduction of uncertainty as to the position of the various people, as would be likely to happen if some of them had no interest in involving themselves in such procedures all over again. It might be impossible to know whether or not a particular disciplinary decision was effective where the person who was the subject of that disciplinary action was not disposed to take any action in the matter.

I brought this Bill before the House on the basis that Mr. McLaughlin took up duty in good faith and that the fact that he was not legally commissioner involved no injustice to any of the people within the Force against whom disciplinary proceedings were instituted since he took over. Neither does validation involve any injustice to anybody else.

I was asked about traffic by-laws and those to which I referred were traffic by-laws appointing taxi stands in Dublin. It is not to be assumed that there are now no valid by-laws governing taxi stands. If the ones to which I referred are deemed to be invalid, the older by-laws which the most recent ones purported to repeal would, of course, still be in force. The temporary rules to which I refer concerned parking restrictions at Knock, County Mayo.

With regard to those who wish to make capital out of allegations that I made criticisms of the Supreme Court, there is nothing in law or tradition which makes it inappropriate to say that the Government felt aggrieved at the decision. Such a statement was already made in the High Court by counsel acting for the Government.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monoghan): When coupled with the Tánaiste's statement it sounds very menacing.

It shows the standards of the present Government.

It is a recognised fact that individual judges themselves criticise court decisions and there is no question of anything said in the speech being out of line with established practice.

Not to realise it makes it worse.

The Supreme Court held that the defence filed on behalf of the Government did not sufficiently deny the allegations in Mr. Garvey's statement of claim and that on that account they must be presumed to have accepted them. Many allegations have been made in this House and I am not free to refute them at this point. I would not want anybody to draw the conclusion that I accept them because I am not now in a position to refute them.

(Interruptions.)

The Minister is in possession.

The Minister had a lot to say in 1977. He made a lot of unfair charges then.

Why was the Deputy not here at the time as a Member to take me up on that in defence of his colleague, the Minister for Justice, who came from his constituency?

I was in Europe but now I am back.

The Minister is hinting again. He should speak out frankly.

(Cavan-Monaghan): Is the Minister not going to deal with the promotions?

There were some beauties promoted, and I can guarantee that. Some men who are law breakers——

Deputy L'Estrange is making allegations that should not be made.

I can stand over those allegations. A man was promoted who was out driving cars while under the influence of drink.

The Deputy should withdraw the allegation.

I certainly will not.

The Deputy will leave the House.

Deputy L'Estrange has not mentioned any names.

I did not mention the name of the man who was promoted. Furthermore, he paraded the police at Templemore Barracks at 3 o'clock in the morning when he was under the influence of drink and in a barracks in Dublin, since he was promoted, also at 3 o'clock in the morning.

The Deputy will leave the House.

For making allegations. I have asked the Deputy to withdraw the charge.

I made a charge which is quite true about a man who was promoted by the Minister for Justice.

The Deputy will leave the House.

Why should the Deputy be asked to leave the House.

The Deputy should obey the Chair.

I certainly will not.

The Chair is in possession and I am asking Deputy L'Estrange to leave the House.

Why should I leave the House. I made a charge which is true and 95 per cent of the gardaí know it. He had an accident with a Garda car in Dublin and did not stop. He tried to stop the garda from following him into the Castle. The garda had a blank cheque the next morning to pay for the damages to the car but that garda was afraid to cash the cheque. That cannot be denied.

The House is adjourned until 6 p.m.

Debate adjourned.
Business suspended at 5.25 p.m. and resumed at 6 p.m.
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