Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Oct 1979

Vol. 316 No. 1

Occasional Trading Bill, 1979: Second Stage.

Minister of State at the Department of Industry, Commerce and Energy (Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Ba mhaith liom i dtosach mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis na Teachtaí a ghlac leis an Bhille seo inniu. Tá géarghá leis agus sin é an fáth gur iarradh oraibh é a phlé chomh luath.

Faoi réir na n-eisceacht a luaitear san Bhille ní bheidh sé dleathach d'éinne tar éis tosach feidhme an Achta earraí a mhiondíol in aon fhoirgneamh nó áit nach bóthar nó áit phoiblí eile é gan cead a deonfar dó faoin Acht.

Deputies may be aware that it was the original intention to introduce a single Bill to regulate both occasional and roadside trading but it has been found necessary to proceed on the basis of two Bills. Legislation in this general area affects the rights of individuals and great care has had to be taken to ensure that the constitutional rights of persons are not infringed. Very complex problems which could not be solved quickly were encountered when the question of regulating roadside trading was examined. In particular, in the case of outdoor trading which is carried on at public markets and fairs by virtue of Royal Charters and letters patent granted in previous centuries it was felt that it would take a considerable time, in view of constitutional difficulties, to arrive at an acceptable method of modifying, or perhaps even extinguishing, these rights and making suitable alternative provision for such classes of street trading as are deemed not to be contrary to the public interest. Trading in livestock is one class of roadside trading for which adequate provision must be maintained.

It was in these circumstances that it was decided to proceed with two Bills rather than one. However, a draft of a Bill to regulate roadside trading is being examined and I hope to have it ready for circulation to Deputies at an early date. I am not in a position to say exactly when but the intention is to avoid unnecessary delay.

For some years past representations have been made by and on behalf of established traders, their staffs and their customers about the activities of traders who move into hotels, dancehalls, vacant shop premises or other places for a short time—sometimes a day or two, sometimes several weeks—for the purpose of retail selling. These traders frequently advertise these activities as "Monster Sales" or "Auctions". Provided these traders take out hawkers' licences and provided their use of premises as shops is not in contravention of the Planning Acts, they are not committing any offence. A hawkers' licence costs only £20 and, therefore, this requirement is not a significant burden on occasional traders. As regards the Planning Acts, it will often happen that premises are occupied and vacated before anyone has a chance of challenging the statutory right to use the premises as a shop. Quite often it will be obvious from previous use of the premises as a shop that no contravention of the Planning Acts arises and, at times, the position of premises under the Planning Acts can be quite obscure. The overall situation is that if a person takes out a hawkers' licence he or she has little if anything to fear from the law.

Occasional trading was studied by the Restrictive Practices Commission at the request of the Minister in 1976 and their report was published. All of the submissions made to the commission and all the representations made to the Department of Industry, Commerce and Energy have been critical of occasional traders. No one has made a submission supporting them. Those who made submissions to the commission and to the Department included the Irish Union of Distributive Workers and Clerks, trade associations, individual traders, chambers of commerce, local development associations and local authorities.

Occasional trading was described by the Irish Union of Distributive Workers and Clerks as a form of piracy which took a considerable amount of trade out of a town, affected sales in particular goods for a considerable time ahead and threatened employment in the distributive sector. All bodies which made submissions to the Restrictive Practices Commission agreed in saying that occasional trading was unfair because the organisers of such trading were in a privileged position since they did not incur the expenses of overheads, taxes and other commitments which local traders have to meet. Selling at dumped prices was also alleged.

Deputies will recall that the Minister for Finance included a provision in this year's Finance Act for the collection of VAT at the point of importation from traders who have no permanent place of business in the State. Furthermore, I am assured that the Revenue Commissioners have taken steps to collect the appropriate taxes from occasional traders. However, it is clear that, even if these traders pay their full taxes, they do enjoy a competitive advantage over established traders and on account of their mobility, it is frequently difficult for consumers to get any sort of after-sales service from them.

The Restrictive Practices Commission were urged by the Irish Union of Distributive Workers and Clerks and other bodies to recommend prohibition of occasional trading. I think it is a fair summation of the Restrictive Practices Commission report to say that, in several respects, the complaint about occasional traders was found to be over-stated. Nevertheless the commission accepted that there were particular risks to the consumers in occasional sales and that such sales can have a severe if temporary effect on local traders in the goods concerned. The commission did not consider the total prohibition of occasional trading to be feasible. They pointed out that manufacturers and wholesalers regularly rent rooms in hotels for the display of their goods and their sale to traders. But the commission recommended that where a person engages in retail trading for a brief period in a place where he does not usually reside or carry on business he should require a permit from the local authority in respect of each day's trading.

This recommendation has, basically, been accepted but it has been decided that the permits to engage in occasional trading should be granted by the Minister rather than the local authority.

The Occasional Trading Bill proposes in section 2 to define occasional trading as retailing at a premises or place—other than a public road or other place to which the public has access as of right—of which the person so selling has been in continuous occupation for less than three months. A very limited range of selling activities which are deemed not to be contrary to the public interest are excluded from the definition. Sections 3 and 4 provide that persons proposing to engage in trading to which the Bill applies will be required to apply in writing to the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy for a permit which will cost £50 plus £25 for every day or part of a day on which he proposes to trade at the one place. This application for a permit will have to be made 30 days before trading commences. The Minister may attach conditions to the permit. A person who proposes to trade at the one place for longer than three months—that is to say a person who proposes to be a permanent or established trader at the one place—need not take out a permit if he makes a statutory declaration of his intention and gives the statement to the Minister. Section 5 provides that a person engaging in occasional trading will be required to display his occasional trading permit at or near the place where the trading takes place. Section 7 requires an advertisement relating to occasional trading to contain the number of the trading permit and the name and address of the person to whom it was issued.

These are the main provisions of the proposed legislation. A person intending to engage in occasional trading will have to give reasonable notice of his intentions; he will have to make a reasonable contribution to the Exchequer which, while it may seem large to some people, is unlikely to go further than meeting the cost of administering the Act; and an occasional trader will have to let his customers and other interested parties verify that he has paid for a permit and make a note of his name and permanent address in case they have any reason for wanting to get in touch with him at a later date.

Bille an-theicniciúl atá ann. Bhí sé andeacair trádáil ócáideach a mhíniú agus, ag an am céadna, siopadóirí seasamhacha a fhágáil taobh amuigh de fhoráileacha an Bhille. Tá mé lán tsásta gur éirigh linn. An dara ceist mhór a bhí le réiteach ná an sórt agus an caighdeán de ríaliú a oirfeadh. Mar a mhínigh mé cheana, ní fhéadfaimís trádáil ócáideach a chur faoi smacht ar fad. Dá bhrí sin, bhí orainn leibhéal na dtáillí a shocrú ionnas go mbéadh sintiús trádálaí gar do bheith cothrom le meán bhuaníocaíochtaí siopadóra seasmhach. Measaim go bhfuil an freagra ceart againn ach más rud é go bhfuil na táillí luaite i mír 4 ró-iseal—nó i gcásanna faoi leith ró-árd—féadfaidh an tAire é sin a cheartú.

Tríd is tríd tá mé sásta go réiteoidh an Bille an fhadhb atá ann faoi láthair agus molaim é do Theachtaí.

Mr. O'Toole

Ba mhaith liom thar ceann an pháirtí seo fáiltiú roimh an mBille agus is áthas liom go bhfuil tríd is tríd, mar a dúirt an tAire, iarracht á dhéanamh an fhadhb seo atá againn maidir le trádáil ócáideach a réiteach.

I welcome the Bill and I am glad to see that an effort is being made to come to grips with this very real and grave problem which besets many communities, in particular those involved in trading. However, I wish to express my disappointment at the fact that after such a long time we are now left with—the Minister will recognise the Irish word—the orcán, the weak piglet in the litter, the weakling of the species. The main problems arise out of roadside and street trading.

Approximately one-fifth of the Minister's speech is devoted to an apology for not being in a position to provide legislation for this main difficulty, roadside and street trading. She has mentioned that it is a very complex area producing many problems that cannot be solved quickly, maintaining that it would take a considerable time, in view of constitutional difficulties, to arrive at an acceptable method of modifying the law in regard to these types of activities. This follows repeated assurances from the Minister present and her colleague in the Department of Industry, Commerce and Energy, Deputy Burke, that legislation concerned specifically with these areas would be forthcoming. Indeed, promises were made 18 months ago that it would be produced before Christmas 1978. After this long delay we have now a Bill presented to us which concerns a specific area of activity, which is a problem area. Let me put it to the Minister—and this emerges also from the report of the Restrictive Practices Commission—that this would seem to constitute the smallest problem area of the three mentioned, namely, the area of trading from temporary retail outlets.

The inherent problem is that casual traders have always been with us. As the Minister correctly stated, there are certain legal problems which may prove difficult but which are surely not beyond the capacity of the Minister or the Department to solve. Representations and recommendations have been made, as have suggestions, by various parties. I am sure the Minister is well aware of these and has taken cognisance of them. There is no point in making a long apology for the inability of the Department to come to grips with these problems when interested parties are looking to that very source of authority for the solution to these problems.

Temporary retail outlets and the people who operate from them are causing grave concern to established traders. As was reported by the commission—and, indeed, since 1976 the problem has become more acute—their activities upset the trading outlets of local established traders and undermine price structures. In fact they do worse; they affect the consumer very much, something about which I shall have a few words to say later. They operate from a position of advantage over the established trader in that they are not subject to the normal rents, rates, taxes or other overheads that the average trader must face. In addition, in many cases, they are also avoiding the payment of VAT, social insurance and of wages which should be paid at union level. The conditions under which they rent a premises must also be questioned from the hygienic and planning points of view. Change of usage, fire hazard and so on are incorporated in the amended Planning Act of 1976.

From my reading of the Bill—and the Minister will appreciate that because of the short time available it has not been possible to go into it in great depth—it would appear that there remain loopholes, with which hopefully we will deal on Committee Stage, concerned particularly with the planning aspect of the premises rented by such people for short periods.

There is also the real problem of enforcement of the law, and in this respect I appreciate the Minister's difficulty. I am not making excuses for him; there is no excuse for such a long delay. The problem would seem to lie in the reluctance or inability of someone somewhere to implement the law. The only restriction at present concerns the Shops (Hours of Trading) Act, 1938, administered by the Minister's Department. It is clear, even from the submission of the Restrictive Practices Commission, that the terms of that Act are not being implemented. I do not know what is the difficulty but there appears to be absolute freedom on the part of these traders to contravene the provisions of that Act. This was stated in the commission's report by parties who made submissions to the Minister.

On the broader issue of sales and trading of this type, while one may meet the odd person who will contend that they provide a service and fulfil a need—which is undoubtedly true in a very narrow and shortsighted sense —nevertheless, in the absence of very little consumer legislation in this country to date, these people constitute a definite hazard to the consumer. In many cases they sell goods of inferior quality. In all cases the purchaser has no redress whatever, no guarantee, no warranty and, even if he had the bird would have flown, the trader being no longer at his location of trading if the purchaser is unhappy with any article purchased. There is no after sales service.

To put it in a nutshell, we are speaking about consumer exploitation, the philosophy of the quick buck. It is as simple as that. This Bill, while restricting to some degree the activities of these people—ensuring at least that the Minister will know if and when this type of trader is operating in a particular location because of the necessity to obtain a licence—will not resolve the problem of their exploitation of the consumer. I would hope that the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Bill, when it reaches the Statute Book, will help resolve that problem on behalf of the consumer. But, as of now, while the provisions of this Bill control the granting of licences, the inspection of licensees, their bona fides and so on, they do not go much further than that.

Because of the speed with which the Bill was published and has come to Second Stage, I have not had much time to deal with it in detail. One point which comes to mind and which is more a matter for Committee Stage is in relation to section 2 (2) (f) which refers to "selling of ice-cream, sweets, chocolate, confectionery, cooked foods (other than those cooked at the place of sale)...." I do not want to be facetious but does that exclusion include the provision of chips which are cooked in the place of sale? This is one item of food very commonly sold at such locations but which should not be excluded.

The Bill sets out to regulate this kind of trading, taking in its entity. It does its job, in the sense that it controls the licensing of such traders and provides for penalties for breaches of the law under its provisions. I hope that it will be successful in that, if implemented. The Bill just scratches at the surface of this problem. The major areas of activity in casual trading are the roadside and the streets of our cities and towns. From what the Minister said it would seem that because of all the complex difficulties raised it will be a long time before this problem is met head on and any effort made to resolve it.

Ba mhaith liom, mar fhocal scoir, a rá go bhfáiltím roimh an mBille seo arís, go bhfuil díomá orm nach dtugann sé aghaidh ar na fadhbanna a bhaineann le trádálaí eile ar thaobh an bhóthair, ar shráideanna agus i sráidbhailte na tíre seo. Ní dheineann sé tada futhu siúd agus tá faitíos orm go mbeidh tamall fada le fanacht againn sula dtabharfar aghaidh ar an fhadhb sin.

In the context of consumer protection, could the Minister indicate when that protection might be forthcoming in the form of the sale of goods as applied to this Bill?

Mr. B. Desmond

The Labour Party welcome this Bill and fully support the speedy enactment of the legislation. We certainly hope that the President will sign it before Christmas because the next spate of major occasional trading of this nature will occur in the immediate run into the Christmas shopping period.

We are concerned that it has taken so long to introduce the Bill but appreciate that there are constitutional and legislative difficulties in framing legislation of this nature. Nevertheless, it has taken many years to bring about the introduction of this Bill, limited as it is in terms of what one might call occasional indoor trading. There is a need for other urgent legislation not only in relation to roadside trading but also in relation to the aspects of pyramid selling where so many have been conned out of their money or their hopes of obtaining easy money and were, as the phrase goes, "ripped off" very rapidly by some very slick operators. On that basis, we welcome this limited application of further consumer protection and would like to see it introduced as quickly as possible.

The Bill underlines the need for extensive consumer education in relation to such practices. Every Deputy in the House rarely ceases to be amazed at the dreadful gullibility of a large segment of the consumer public who are prepared to buy apparently cheap goods in these occasionally rented or obtained premises and find themselves without guarantees, without redress. Many Deputies receive pathetic representations from individual constituents who have been conned, or who have simply bought what would, in the commercial sense, be called seconds. These are not just in relation to the odd bit of carpeting, or the odd pillow or bedspread. The more expensive the commodities in the general range of consumer goods, the more easily people are conned.

There have been instances of people buying refrigerators of that nature, washing machines, a wide range of electrical goods—all allegedly at half price, but invariably of dubious origin and dumped secondhand goods doing the rounds. It is not unusual to see container loads of such consumer equipment being "flogged" from one major town to the other or from suburb to suburb in the urban areas. Admittedly, it is not as widespread as one would be led to believe, but it exists and has to be curbed very drastically by the State in the best interests of consumers. We must, as legislators say, to consumers that the hope of getting something on the cheap, or of making a quick few pounds, allegedly saving, as well as people's selfishness, lack of thought, foresight and care very often leads them into purchases which they subsequently regret. On that basis alone, we certainly favour the introduction of this Bill. There is a great and absolute need for consumer appreciation also, because there is a distinct limit to the extent to which legislation can help somebody who wants to buy something on the nod.

This legislation will lead to a reduction in the sale of what can only be described as dubious goods. There are a fair few goods floating around this country and one does not have to be a politician to appreciate the allegations made about goods the origins of which one can only surmise and which are flogged in quick sales to unsuspecting customers. Very often on examination the goods are found to be perfect but the perfection of their origins is often a matter of the gravest suspicion. Where goods are quie perfect in their manufacture and are under a well-known brand name and yet are being sold at, say, 50 per cent below normal retail or wholesale price, then somebody somewhere has obtained these goods in circumstances which can be quite dubious. Many a story is told about wholesalers and storage proprietors in Northern Ireland who have received offers that they could not refuse and whose goods were subsequently brought south of the Border.

This legislation will undoubtedly be of considerable assistance to the Revenue Commissioners. It is ironic that at a time when the Government are issuing licences for occasional trading these are issued without any general application. The Government's de-licensing aspect of motor vehicle driving will mean that a fellow who has never done a driving test may be driving a motor car around the country loaded with goods which he is going to flog, having obtained a license for them from the Department of Industry, Commerce and Energy.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot introduce that under this Bill.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): They are going to do away with the leaving certificate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The leaving certificate has nothing to do with this Bill any more than has the driving licence.

Mr. B. Desmond

It looks as though this Bill will be of considerable benefit, nevertheless, in assisting the Revenue Commissioners to ensure that the evasion of VAT and of the normal payment of company tax and trading taxes by such individuals is mitigated substantially. On that basis I welcome the legislation strongly. I hope the records of the Department will be made available to the Revenue Commissioners because undoubtedly evasion is taking place. There is enough evasion in relation to normal wholesaling and retailing without this problem of surveillance providing great difficulty for the Revenue Commissioners as well.

I want to raise something which the Minister of State referred to in her contribution. She pointed out that the commission had indicated to the Government that manufacturers and wholesalers regularly rent rooms in hotels for the display of their goods and for sale to traders. I ask the Minister to clarify the procedure in relation to the obtaining of a licence, if this is necessary. It is apparently not necessary. A great number of such sales are held particularly by commercial travellers who, on behalf of wholesalers and manufacturers, travel around the country and are obliged to rent rooms on a thoroughly reputable basis for the display of their goods, samples and so on and the taking of orders. I hope this Bill will not inhibit their operations in any way. Further, not only do such manufacturers and wholesalers travel around the country but their employees do a great deal of travelling on their behalf. One has to make a sharp distinction between them and the other traders doing up to three months' trading who would be obliged to pay £50 plus £25 for every day or part thereof for their permit. Perhaps an additional reassurance could be given by the Minister in relation to the Bill. I would welcome that.

That is the only query I have in relation to the various sections of the Bill. We wish it a speedy enactment and we look forward to the rigorous implementation and enforcement of this legislation. I have had a number of approaches about such activities from trading organisations, the IUDWC and other trade unions concerned. We members of Dublin County Council have on occasion been plagued by efforts on our part either to seek injunctions against such traders for contravention of our development plan or for changes of use which were never applied for, and they have been a thorn in the side of our planning officers. On that basis also as a member of the local authority I welcome the legislation and I am quite sure that every member of every local authority around the country will welcome its introduction. I approve of the decision of the Minister and the Government that licences and permits will be issued by the Department rather than by the local authority concerned. On that basis we can have national uniformity and a higher degree of objectivity in dealing with such applications, and the taxing authorities at departmental level will have greater access to the data on all such activities on the part of occasional traders.

We support this Bill and commend the Minister for its introduction.

Mr. J. Leonard

I also welcome this Occasional Trading Bill which is necessary at present when operators can very easily set up temporary premises for auctions and sales of a type which have a fascination for people. In country districts, and especially in tourist areas this attraction is noticeable. If such sales are properly operated they can add colour to an area and can give good scope for development on the part of craft workers. However, a recent development here is that outsiders are coming in—and this is far from being a tourist attraction—to Dublin and to many rural areas, and groups are running auctions which in many cases are a type of confidence trick. These operators can very handily find accommodation in halls and hotels, and they are sheltering behind a weakness in our laws. It is necessary that this legislation be brought in so that people will not be exploited. Each and every one of us has a human weakness for a bargain and sometimes too late we find that we get nothing for nothing. It is only an illusion to think that one can get bargains at these sales.

It is the possibility of getting a bargain which brings people in large numbers to those places. It very often turns out that they have been exploited because the articles have not been catalogued and they are not guaranteed for after-sale service. People purchase items and they find that their life span is very short. When they need parts for those goods they find they are not available and the people from whom they purchased the goods are no longer in the area. Great efforts are being made at the moment through the EEC to give greater consumer protection. The established manufacturers are going to considerable expense to meet the various measures which are being introduced in the consumer protection field.

It is a backward step to allow unauthorised selling by the fly-by-night operators. If those people are permitted to trade the consumer will be given much less protection. We have often been told that we are behind other member states of the EEC in providing consumer protection. If we fail to control the abuses of occasional trading, which this Bill is aimed at, it will be a backward step.

Sections 4 and 5 relate to permits. A genuine man who is selling goods will not have anything to fear. All those people can now apply for their permits and consumers can return to those traders if articles they buy are not satisfactory. We very often have genuine traders complaining about the way their business is affected by occasional trading. Those genuine traders pay their rates and taxes and are giving good employment. They carry lines which are slow-moving but which are essential to the housewife and to the community in general. Those people have a lot of money invested in slow-moving lines. The occasional traders come in with fast-moving lines and the trading of the genuine traders is affected.

There is more involved in consumer protection than price. It is only after people have brought home articles which they have purchased from those occasional traders that they realise they have been conned and that they are unable to secure parts when they are required. Reference has been made to VAT. It would be very hard for any Department or any officials to keep tabs on occasional traders. I welcome this Bill because it will benefit the consumer. I congratulate the Minister on its introduction.

Mr. Creed

I want to comment on what is not in the Bill rather than what is in it. We have the regular type of trader who operates under the local authority by-laws. It is important to identify those people and to have a proper register of the amount of this type of trading. I come from an area where at marts and markets a considerable number of people sell fruit, vegetables, fish, secondhand clothing, and the consumer is not hoodwinked by those people. Most people who buy fish, vegetables and clothing know what they are buying.

A commission was set up in 1956 to examine the problem of roadside trading. We are now approaching 1980 but we still have not legislation to deal fully with the problem. In Cork County Council we have deputation after deputation complaining about the problems created by roadside traders. I have no doubt, as Deputy Barry Desmond pointed out, that the origin of their wares is very suspect. I was told a story about a person who bought a coloured television set from one of those roadside traders and when the television broke down after a few nights this man brought an expert to look at the set who found some wrist watches inside it. The consumers are not judges in relation to television sets and wrists watches. It is important to have some control over this type of trading. We are dealing with a group, who seem to be far outside the law, who cannot be touched. On one of the national primary routes in my county one can see carpets, televisions and wrist watches being sold. There are queues of people examining the wares and other people complaining about the traffic hazards caused by this type of trading but still they cannot be touched.

This Bill is not sufficient to deal with that type of trading. I know this is a complex matter. If we are to have a second Bill to deal with the matter I hope the Minister will introduce it soon because we cannot allow such trading to continue. The regular traders, who pay rates and taxes, are trying to compete with those other people who do not pay any rates or taxes. I hope this Bill has a speedy enactment and I ask the Minister to bring in the second Bill without delay so that this problem can be dealt with.

Mr. Donegan

I welcome this Bill. I have probably seen more of this type of trading in my area than Deputies representing other parts of the country. I have seen it along the Border where goods come from either side. It would be impossible for the Revenue Commissioners or anybody else to properly supervise this type of trading. I believe that roadside trading has increased substantially because of VAT. It is no secret that these roadside traders evade value-added tax and when one has regard also to their evading personal income tax and to the fact that they do not pay rates and that they do not incur heating or lighting costs, one must appreciate that they are in a position to undercut any registered trader, regardless of how efficient he might be. That is an unfair situation.

I appreciate that in this Bill the problem is approached fairly in that there are exclusions. I am sure it would not be the wish of anyone that a man who, for instance, had been selling fish on a town street for a number of years, should be prevented from continuing to engage in such activity. Likewise, it is right that there should be an exclusion in the case of a person selling ice cream occasionally on the street. However, the question is very different when we are talking in terms of someone selling television sets, carpets, and electrical goods of all kinds that are highly valuable. If such a person operates as a roadside trader he is able to evade all the various taxes that the rest of us must pay. Obviously, such a situation must be regularised. Another factor is the question of protection for the consumer because in most cases the name of a street trader would not be known to the people who purchased goods from him. In such a situation there is no redress for the consumer who finds that the goods he has bought are faulty. When this legislation is enacted these street traders will need to be registered in order to carry on business. Consequently, they will have had to furnish details of their places of abode. They will be known, then, to the Garda and to the Revenue Commissioners. As one who, like the majority of people, pays his income tax, I welcome these roadside traders being brought into the tax net.

Perhaps the traders concerned will say that a licence fee of £25 per day is substantial, but having regard to the ordinary profit and loss account of any retail business the overheads for a day in terms of rates, light, heating and repairs to buildings, even for a small business, would probably amount to that figure. So far as the roadside trader is concerned the sky is his roof and he has all the light he needs from the sun. The Bill is long overdue, but I am very glad that it is before us now and that it has been presented in such a fair and balanced way.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): In her speech the Minister of State dealt with the question of occasional or casual trading and also roadside trading, but this Bill deals only with occasional or short-term trading. This occasional trading is something that has been with us only for a comparatively short time. It has become common only in the past few years for traders to move in and lease a hall or a vacant shop from which to sell their merchandise, but it is only right that this type of trading be regulated particularly from the point of view of the consumer because, as has been said already, these traders move into an area, lease accommodation for a very short period and then move out leaving the consumer without redress in the event of complaints.

I assume that it will be necessary for the Minister to make regulations regarding the granting of permits and licences and I trust that at that time he will specify that the type of traders we are talking of must give details of permanent places of abode before being granted licences. I trust also that the Minister will be empowered to revoke a licence in circumstances in which such action is considered necessary, when, for instance, complaints made by consumers are not dealt with properly by the traders.

In some cases these occasional traders provide a service that some people seek, particularly poorer people. If the traders are giving value people will buy from them and that is all right so long as the situation is controlled. It is because the Bill seeks to bring about such control that I welcome it. Hopefully, the Bill will have the effect of ensuring that when complaints are received they are investigated and that, where necessary, action is taken against those concerned. The most effective action would be to refuse to grant a licence subsequent to complaints being sustained.

The other brand of trading concerned is roadside or street trading, a type of trading that has been practised for a very long time. For at least 25 years past various local authorities have attempted to control this kind of trading. The Association of Municipal Authorities must have passed resolutions year after year demanding that street trading be regularised. It is a type of trading that has a number of objectionable aspects. First, there is the type of complaint that is common also to the occasional trader, that is, that they appear on the scene, sell their goods and then disappear. In addition they seem to have the right to move into a town in great numbers and to cause obstruction on the streets, making it impossible for people who are licensed properly to drive—and from now on some who will be driving without being licensed properly—to use the streets. I am disappointed that street trading and roadside trading are not being dealt with in the Bill. It may be said that when we were in Government we failed to deal with the situation, but the Minister's party have had the opportunity of dealing with it on many occasions and have only seen fit to tackle the matter now.

I urge the Minister of State to implement the promise she has given, albeit in vague terms, that a Bill is to be introduced to deal with this type of trading. Apparently she is not in a position to tell us when we may expect the appropriate legislation. I do not know whether there are constitutional or other legal difficulties in this area but it is a sorry state of affairs that a local authority are not in a position to control the streets in their area or that the Government are not in a position to pass legislation to control trading in the streets. If a Bill designed to bring about such control were to be unconstitutional, I should find difficulty in comprehending how the Planning Acts would stand up in terms of the Constitution. But we know that the Planning Acts are constitutional. I do not foresee any difficulty in relation to legislation to control street trading. I am not saying that street traders should be prohibited entirely from selling goods in towns. Some of these people are providing a service that is appreciated by some, but we must have control by regulation so that the consumer is protected. These traders should be controlled also in that they should not be permitted to continue to be a law unto themselves.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is becoming involved in a Bill that is not before the House. It is in order to ask about the other legislation and to say that it should be introduced urgently, but it is not in order to debate it.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan-Monaghan): These street traders can pitch their tent anywhere they wish and cause any obstruction they wish. I urge the Minister to bring in this other Bill as soon as possible. It is legislation that is very necessary and very important.

Mr. Taylor

I welcome this Bill. This matter has occupied the minds and activities of people elected to local authorities, urban councillors, town commissioners and members of county councils, over a long period. People in public life have been pressed by legitimate traders to have some measure introduced which would prevent this type of trading, which is illegitimate in their eyes and prevents them from making a living.

We have to segregate the types of trading which we hope this Bill will deal with. I should hate to restrict people who are resident in any county, and who are established at our traditional fairs and marts, and who are recognised as being honest and upright dealers, giving good service particularly in the west of Ireland to people with modest means who were pushed out into the Atlantic for centuries and had to remain there, unable to enjoy the normal standards of living available to people in the better-off areas. In the olden days the traders I refer to sold harness and certain types of clothes. We have now moved into a more affluent society.

We should have a register of established street traders who are ratepayers in and residents of different counties and who have moved around those counties for 25 to 50 years. They should be allowed to retain their established rights. The provision is £50 for a permit, plus £25 for each day's trading at one place. That is rather high for a day's trading.

I have no compassion whatsoever for those itinerant or nomadic people who come from outside the State, or from our own State across the Border, or what we hope will be our own State at some future time—people with very doubtful backgrounds and with goods from very doubtful sources. I should like to see a clean sweep made of that type of trader. He should no longer be allowed to disfigure our main roadways. I refer particularly to the area of Shannon-Limerick-Ennis Road, where convoys of caravans are resident over the holiday period, not adorning our countryside but disfiguring what could be a very scenic area. Those people have been coming there for years. They are harmful to our trade and to our traders. I would show no mercy to fly-by-night and fly-by-day boys who go into hotels and ballrooms to make a quick buck on goods which are not up to standard. When people go home they find out that they have been had, that they have been sold goods of inferior quality for a very good price.

For too long our legislators have failed to tackle this problem and deal with it effectively. I am glad the Minister of State, a lady of good judgment, has introduced a Bill which will please people. I welcome the Bill. There are many difficulties. This report by the Restrictive Practices Commission which was requested in 1975, or thereabouts, has set down the guidelines for this legislation. It is long overdue, but it will smooth the way for established traders in our towns. I am sure the Minister of State will meet with no obstacle from any side of the House in enacting this Bill which is necessary and welcome.

Mr. O'Keeffe

I am disappointed in this Bill, not because of what is in it but because of what is not in it. On that basis I should like to add my voice to the voices of those who indicated their disappointment at the Government's inaction in dealing with a real problem affecting the country today in this area.

This Bill deals with occasional "monster auctions". These are but the tip of the iceberg. They are the edge of the problem only. The real problem is roadside trading. The Minister referred to the difficulties in framing legislation dealing with roadside trading and suggested they could be overcome by introducing two Bills, one to deal with the "monster auctions", the main item in this Bill, and the other to deal with roadside trading.

Why are the two Bills not circulated now? The report of the Restrictive Practices Commission was produced in 1976, three years ago. Great hardship has been suffered by many people, traders and consumers in local communities, because of the activities of fly-by-night traders operating mainly on the roadside. I have to criticise the Government for their delay in tackling the main problem, and merely touching the tip of the iceberg by producing this Bill. The difficulties which have arisen in this area from the point of view of traders and consumers will not be tackled until the second Bill is introduced.

The Minister said:

Legislation in this general area affects the rights of individuals and great care has had to be taken to ensure that the constitutional rights of persons are not infringed.

That could be said about any Bill. I am sure the parliamentary draftsmen have to advise on the constitutional implications of all Bills and, indeed, great care should be taken in the preparation and drafting of any Bill. Surely after three years this urgent problem should have been dealt with by the Government. Promises were made that it would be dealt with. Promises were made that the matter would be dealt with and a further promise was made today. All I can do at this stage is to voice my disappointment that the main problem seems to have been put on the long finger and to urge the Minister to take steps in this area as soon as possible.

In this whole area of occasional and roadside trading there are problems which affect both traders and consumers. The traders are affected because of loss of business to fly-by-night traders, and consumers are affected because in very many cases what appears to be a bargain turns out to be a dead loss. There is no protection for the consumer. If any difficulties arise in connection with merchandise, if any redress is to be sought, or if any court proceedings are to be served, the person responsible has gone. The consumer will continue to be in an exposed situation until control is exercised by way of legislation over this type of selling activity.

I exclude entirely from my remarks the selling of fish, fruit and so on by long-established traders. These traders are operating on a traditional and regular basis. The people I have in mind are the people who come into an area for a few days and then go, often selling goods of questionable origin and doubtful quality. In that situation, therefore, lies my disappointment. The real problem has not been tackled. Until such time as the Minister and the Government do this, the promises that have been made to the electorate cannot be seen to be kept, the problem cannot be dealt with and there will be a continuing difficulty for traders and consumers.

There is a lot of good in the Bill. Although I have criticised the Bill for non-coverage of roadside trading, it is an acceptable one. It deals with an area which has been causing problems. However, it is only a small part of the problem but we must be thankful for small mercies. There has to be control over occasional monster auctions. In fairness to the Minister, I think she is going the right way about this matter and from that point of view I welcome the Bill.

A small point occurs to me in relation to the section dealing with exclusions. I see that the selling of fish is excluded and that the selling of cooked foods is excluded unless they are cooked at the place of sale. The selling of agricultural products is excluded but that seems to relate more to livestock. One of the general amenities at open-air functions is the selling of fish and chips. If the Minister is satisfied that this item is excluded, as I think it should be, I feel that the Bill can meet with the approval of the House.

Minister of State at the Department of Industry, Commerce and Energy (Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn)

I should like to thank the many Deputies who contributed to the debate and to say that there is nobody more disappointed than myself that both types of trading—street and roadside—could not have been dealt with in one Bill. Most of the Deputies appreciated that constitutional problems arose which had to be looked at very carefully, particularly in regard to roadside and street trading. The decision was taken to separate the Bill into two Bills so that we could at least deal with one of the types of trading which was causing concern among traders.

At the end of his speech, Deputy O'Keeffe rightly said that he was delighted to see that at least we were moving in the right direction. It was a good decision and one which we should have made sooner.

In my speech I said that a draft Bill dealing with roadside and street trading was being examined in the Department and I hope that a Bill dealing with these matters will be published in the near future. I cannot say when it will be published but it is my intention that no unnecessary delays will take place in my Department.

Occasional trading is not the small problem that many people seem to think it is. I come from a county which has more than its fair share of these traders. I have found that the occasional trader is more sophisticated in his methods of trading than the roadside trader. Most of us have had the experience of finding leaflets advertising monster sales on the windshields of our parked cars or of having them pushed through our letter boxes. It would seem that the occasional traders have sophisticated methods and have many agents working on their behalf.

Deputy O'Toole said that there could be loopholes in the Bill. I shall be delighted to plug any loopholes that arise. On Committee Stage we shall have an opportunity of seeing if there are any loopholes. Any loopholes that can be dealt with by my Department will be dealt with. Any amendments that may be necessary to the Planning Acts will be a matter for the Department of the Environment.

Deputy O'Keeffe referred to chips as being one of the cooked foods which might be on sale. Chips are excluded except for occasional trading. Chip shops are normally established businesses and are outside the scope of the Bill. However, I will look into this matter between now and Committee Stage when we can decide whether chips are included or excluded.

Deputy Barry Desmond referred to a point which I made in my speech when I talked about manufacturers and wholesalers who hold trade shows. This type of trading is excluded from the Bill under section 2 (2) (b) because sales at these shows are to genuine retailers.

Deputy Fitzpatrick asked if the Minister would have the power to revoke a licence. The Minister will have power to revoke a licence under section 4 (5).

The point was made that consumers are often exploited by this type of trader. It is a pity that so many Irish consumers and consumers everywhere are so gullible that they buy from disreputable traders. They very often find, having purchased goods from such traders, that they have no redress afterwards if anything goes wrong.

I hope that the Director of Consumer Affairs will move in the direction of providing this very badly needed consumer education to educate people all over the country so that they will not be conned by this type of fly-by-night trader.

In regard to the exploitation of consumers it is very important that the permit should carry the name and permanent address of the occasional trader or the person to whom the licence or permit issues so that he may be pursued if necessary.

I would like to thank all of the Deputies who took part in the debate on this Bill. I am thankful to both Opposition spokesmen, Deputies Desmond and O'Toole, for agreeing to accept the Bill, for recognising the urgency for it. As Deputy Desmond said, it is when we run into Christmas that we find a lot of these traders operating. Therefore, I look forward to its speedy passage in this House and in the Seanad.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 23 October 1979.