Vol. 317 No. 2
asked the Minister for the Environment if it is proposed to grant full driving licences to persons whose applications were with the motor registration departments of local authorities although such licences might not yet have been formally issued prior to the date of his decision on the new driving licence regulations and, if not, why.
17.
asked the Minister for the Environment if he will amend the recent regulations relating to driving licences so that an applicant for a third provisional licence, who had applied for the licence prior to the 11 October 1979 and may not have received it by that date due to administrative delays, will qualify for a full driving licence as if a current provisional licence was held on the 11 October.
I propose with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, to take Questions Nos. 16 and 17 together.
A person who had applied for a provisional licence but who had not yet been issued with such licence on the 11 October 1979 is in fact outside the scope of the recent concession relating to the grant of a driving licence. Furthermore, licensing authorities are precluded by law from issuing either a driving licence or a provisional licence with effect prior to the date of issue. On the other hand, a person already holding either licence is free to apply for a further one at any time within one month prior to the expiration of the existing licence and is thus afforded a reasonable opportunity of maintaining continuity of licence.
It would be inappropriate in my opinion to make further changes in the law for the purpose of embracing the type of case to which the Deputies refer.
Let me say first that I disagree entirely with what the Minister has done but, that having been said, let us apply it to everybody in the same way. In the case of people who had two provisional licences, who applied months before 11 October for a driving test—without which confirmation they could not get a third licence—and that confirmation did not arrive before 11 October, does the Minister consider that they should be barred from getting a full licence while people who had a second licence for only a few days could get a full driving licence?
A definite date had to be set and that date was 11 October. The second provisional licence had to be current on that date in order that a full licence could be issued. If the previous licence had lapsed for whatever reason——
If somebody with two provisional licences applied to a local authority in the normal way for a full licence, the local authority would seek confirmation that the person had applied to do a driving test. The person would then apply for a test and if, due to the postal authorities or the Minister's Department, the person did not get an acknowledgement of his application before 11 October, would the Minister consider it fair that he through the failure of some Government Department should be deprived of a licence while a person unable to drive properly would be able to get a full driving licence just because he had a second licence current on 11 October?
If a person did not have a current licence on 11 October for whatever reason he could not get a full licence. All a person needed to get a further provisional licence was an acknowledgement of his application for a driving test.
Does the Minister not know that, if somebody applies to a local authority for a driving licence, the local authority cannot issue that licence straight away? They ask the applicant to apply for a driving test and they do not issue an acknowledgement of his application. The person will then apply for the driving test. If an acknowledgement of that application came back before 11 October the person would be all right but, if not, the person would not be entitled to a licence. That is a lot of nonsense.
What was required by the local authority was an acknowledgement of an application for a driving test from my Department.
How does one record a conversation, on a tape?
Only an acknowledgement of the driving test application was required by the local authority.
What if the acknowledgement did not come back?
No doubt mistakes can be made, but on examination in my Department I found that driving test applications are immediately acknowleged because a receipt must be sent out for the money received. There have been complaints by people who have not received acknowledgements, but it must also be understood that a person can very easily cast aside an acknowledgement. There have been mistakes on both sides. If a licence was not current on 11 October under these regulations a person cannot get a full licence.
And the Minister will not change it?
Even if a person had lodged an application for a further licence with the local authority and had not received that acknowledgement before 11 October, the local licensing authority cannot issue licences to them. They cannot back-date licences.
The Minister is quoting the regulation as if it were a sacred reason for not doing something. Is the Minister aware that up until mid-day on the date of the order the licensing authority in the Dublin area were still issuing provisional licences because they had not even heard from the Department? Does the Minister consider it just that people who got a second provisional licence under those circumstances subsequent to the Minister's announcement were able to get a full driving licence while those who in good faith applied in writing two weeks before were deprived of the licence?
The people who got licences on the date I signed the regulation could not have known what was going to happen. It was just a sheer coincidence.
It had been announced on the news at 9.30 on the previous evening. The next morning at 12 o'clock the licensing authority had not heard from the Department. The Minister did not notify the licensing authority until they contacted him the day after he signed the order.
They were all told over the telephone.
The Minister is being inaccurate. Would the Minister check up in the Dublin metropolitan area to confirm the fact that the licencing authority were not told by the Minister's Department until they contacted the Department at mid-day the day after the Minister had made the order and during that period they carried on as before issuing hundreds of provisional licences? In view of the many anomalies in this scheme, including the fact that people who may have had full licences which had expired for a period of about five years must do a driving test before they can get another full licence, and in view of the fact that this scheme must surely rank as one of the most reckless and irresponsible decisions of a Minister, will the Minister reconsider amending the regulations to get rid of the anomalies which have been brought to his attention?
No. I do not agree that this was so irresponsible.
(Cavan-Monaghan): If the Minister wants to stand over this change, would he not consider that the reasonable thing to do would be to allow a person to be exempted from doing the driving test if he held a second licence or subsequent provisional licence on 11 October last or if he at any time held a second provisional driving licence which had expired not more than 12 months previously or during any given time?
There is no doubt that if a person was holding a second current provisional licence on 11 October he would get a full licence.
(Cavan-Monaghan): If the person held a second provisional licence which had expired at some stage not longer than 12 months before that or six months, he should also get a licence.
That is equivalent to condoning driving around without licences.
This is to be the last question.
I regard the Minister's statement as being reckless and wrong. The Minister has it in his power to right a lot of the anomalies——
This question was asked.
Is the Minister aware that people who, because their licences were due for renewal, posted their applications for renewal of their provisional licences two and three days before 11 October did not get a new licence because they were delayed in the post? In one case that I know of the application was returned by the Post Office as being undelivered.
This is repetition. Deputy Tully raised these questions.
Could I ask the Minister——
There is no reason to raise them again.
In view of the anomalies, and to protect his good name and good sense, will the Minister review the situation and put the anomalies right?
I have no plans to amend the regulations.
Would the Minister ask his Department to have a look at the applications for driving tests which came in during the week before the order and see if it is possible to do something for those people? Perhaps the Minister took this action for the best, but it was an awful mistake.
Deputies may not agree with what I did but they must appreciate that I had to set a definite date.
The Minister did not have to.
Question No. 20.
On a point of order, what about Questions Nos. 18 and 19?
They have been withdrawn for written replies.
20.
asked the Minister for the Environment if there has been a decrease in the number of driving test applications since the implementation of the recent driving licence regulations on 11 October 1979 in view of the stipulation in these regulations that it is no longer necessary for a provisional driving licensee to be accompanied by a qualified licensee while driving.
21.
asked the Minister for the Environment the number awaiting driving tests at present and an estimate of the reduction in this number by virtue of the implementation of the recent driving licence regulations.
I propose with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, to take Questions Nos. 20 and 21 together.
The recent regulations, which provided inter alia for recognition of EEC driving licences, for issue of driving licences without driving test in certain cases and for extension of the validity of provisional licences from six months to 12 months, have effected a significant reduction in the rate at which applications are now being received for tests. At the same time an individual survey is now being made of the backlog, which had risen to 60,000 by 11 October last, due primarily to the prolonged postal dispute, in order to determine the number of those applications for which tests will have to be arranged.
The Deputy will appreciate therefore that the total number of tests to be arranged on foot of applications current at a given date will depend on the outcome of this survey, coupled with the intake of new applications.
Would the Minister agree that, since by direct regulation he has decreed that it is no longer necessary for a provisional licensee to be accompanied by a qualified driver, this has led to an idea among provisional drivers that there is no need for them to apply for a full licence or for a test and that this has led to a considerable reduction in the number of people applying for tests?
There is no evidence of that yet. There could not be at this stage. In the case of the previous six months provisional licence a person was not issued with a third one until he proved he had applied for a test. The same procedure will now apply. There should be no question of people getting the idea that they will not be required to have a test.
Would the Minister not agree that, particularly in the Dublin area, at present there is practically no waiting list for driving tests and that driver testers are almost in the position of becoming redundant because nobody is applying for a driving test?
That is news to me. The backlog is definitely going and we shall not have the benefit of the effect of the elimination of that backlog until about the end of December. As far as I know, there is plenty of work for driver testers and none is becoming redundant.
How long does an applicant have to wait now in comparison with the waiting time heretofore? Is the Minister aware that people now applying for a test may be called almost immediately and that in fact they are being called by phone? There is not time to communicate with them by letter.
The whole purpose was to eliminate the backlog, but in my Department we maintain we will not have the work running normally until about December. In other words, we will not have eliminated the backlog until then.
December of which year?
Of this year, and then there will be a delay of probably no more than about four weeks for any test after that.
Is the Minister aware of the public reaction to a situation where, of the 45,000 people who have benefited from the irresponsible decision he took, at least 15,000 of them had failed the driving test and that they are currently driving about to the horror and shock of the testers themselves and of a large number of citizens who must face them on the roads? There could be no justification for that decision.
They are not inexperienced drivers.
Is the Minister not aware that 15,000 of them actually failed the driving test and the Minister gave them licences?
At the first test 50 per cent of applicants fail; at the second test 80 per cent of applicants pass. That is the way it has been.
One lunatic is too many.
Did the Deputy have a test?
Yes, and I got it first time.
Is the Minister not aware that in the last 12 months, according to a reply he gave yesterday, 33,000 failed the driving test and that some 45,000 benefited overall from the change in the regulations which he made? It is a fair assumption that there are now at least 15,000 to 20,000 persons driving who failed the driving test at least once and quite a number of them failed the second time and yet the Minister gave them a licence.
I have said that at the second test 80 per cent pass.
There are people who never drove a car in their lives before——
They must have applied for a test in order to have a current licence.
(Cavan-Monaghan): Will the Minister tell us why he did not recruit more testers?
Yes, we shall come to it in later questions. I did recruit more and I am still doing so.
May I ask one further question——
Order. We must get away from this question.
