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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Dec 1979

Vol. 317 No. 6

Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Bill, 1979: Second Stage (Resumed) and Subsequent Stages.

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Dublin South-Central): I thank all those Deputies who have contributed to this debate. A number of Deputies raised points in relation to programmes and to the day-to-day administration of RTE, but this is an area in which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has no statutory function. I assure the Deputies, though, that any comments made here will be read by the Authority and taken into consideration. This has been the practice in the past. Naturally, I have my own views in regard to programmes and I made these views known while I was in opposition. It is only right that Deputies would express their opinions on the type of radio and television programmes they would favour because these media are important factors in regard to the moulding of attitudes in our society.

Before dealing with other matters raised by the various speakers during the debate, I should like to put on record my own appreciation of the manner in which RTE covered so effectively the recent visit to Ireland of Pope John Paul II. Undoubtedly, the outside broadcast operation on that occasion was the largest undertaking ever attempted by RTE and they carried it off without a hitch at very short notice. They have brought international credit and admiration not only to the Irish broadcasting service but to the nation as a whole. I am sure that everybody here will join with me in congratulating all concerned in RTE for the success of that operation.

I am surprised that section 3 of the Bill has given rise to so many difficulties. The range of sinister interpretations that have been put on the section has been unbelievable. I wish to assure Deputies that there is nothing sinister about section 3. The amendment has no relevance to the question of establishing an independent local authority. As I said in my opening speech, this amendment is purely for clarification of the existing situation regarding RTE. The position is that recently the Attorney General had some doubt as to whether RTE had statutory power under existing legislation to provide some of the local services which they are at present providing—for example, Cork local radio and community radio services in various towns. He advised us that the opportunity should be taken at the earliest possible moment to remove any doubt on the matter.

Deputies have offered various interpretations of section 3, but with regard to the possibility of RTE being given approval to establish additional local radio services before the legislation providing for the establishment of the independent local radio authority is enacted, I can inform Deputies that the Government have not taken any decision on proposals submitted by RTE in 1978 for local radio services in Dublin, Cork and Shannonside. The Authority were informed that the Government's decision to set up an independent local radio authority would not necessarily preclude them from further involvement in local broadcasting and that if they wished to put forward fresh proposals after the new independent local radio authority had been set up, the matter could be reconsidered in the light of the circumstances existing then. Of course, RTE would require the Minister's approval before establishing any new local radio service. There are not any fresh proposals from RTE with my Department.

As I said in reply to a parliamentary question from Deputy O'Connell on 31 October last, the drafting of the necessary Bill to provide for the establishment of the new Authority is at an advanced stage. I expect that it will be ready for introduction shortly after Christmas. Section 3 is purely for the purpose of clarifying the position. It does not in any way strengthen the monopoly of RTE.

This sudden concern on the part of the Opposition Deputies to ensure that RTE do not secure a monopoly in the area of local radio is difficult to understand. I should like to draw the attention of Deputies to the speech of the former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Dr. Cruise-O'Brien, on the Estimate for the Department on 10 May 1973. He drew particular attention to the part of the joint Statement of Intent of the Coalition Parties which read as follows:

The review of the television service and broadcasting services will be speeded up and a special examination made as a matter of urgency of such matters as a second television channel, local radio and the provision of piped television and the relationship of the RTE Authority with the Government.

He went on to say:

It is a matter of principle with this Government to keep the promises in the joint Statement of Intent and the implementation of this particular promise falls on me.

On 27 June 1974 in the course of his reply on the Estimate debate for 1974, Dr. Cruise-O'Brien said:

A fully equipped mobile radio studio will be brought into operation shortly and will be available for programme origination from provincial centres. The first steps in local broadcasting have already been taken with the experimental programming from the Cork medium frequency transmitter.

A new development is that a daily half-hour programme from Monday to Friday is being provided for a period of two months from 24 June. This service has the benefit of guidance and advice from the newly established Cork Radio Advisory Committee. The Cork experiment in the next few months will be important in indicating the possibility of development of other such services. If the result of the Cork experiment are encouraging, I hope to see it developed in other areas. We will be watching the experiment with great interest.

Deputies will note that there is no mention of any possibility of a body other than RTE developing these services. Section 3 of this Bill ensures that RTE's local radio services are properly constituted. The Coalition Government did not give a promise that they would establish an independent radio authority which we are doing now. We have taken a positive step forward. I was surprised to hear criticism of my Department and the Minister from the Fine Gael benches. They said we were giving a stronger monopoly to RTE, but that is not true.

A monopoly is a monopoly whether it is strong or weak.

(Dublin South-Central): The Coalition Government did not put forward any provisions with regard to an independent authority. We will be circulating a Bill very shortly and the Deputy will not be able to say then that RTE have any monopoly.

Deputy Deasy and a number of Opposition Deputies raised the question whether RTE's present monopoly is constitutional. This is a question that only the courts can decide. The answer to it would not be affected one way or the other by the enactment of section 3 of the Bill. Therefore, I can see no point in arguing about it, particularly as RTE will not have a monopoly under the provisions of the Bill which is being drafted to set up an independent local radio authority and which I have already stated will be circulated shortly after Christmas.

Deputy Horgan asked for additional details of RTE's capital plans and asked for what projects RTE had sought Government approval. In my opening statement I referred to the broad categories of work on which RTE expect to spend £23,500,000 during the next four to five years. RTE envisage that the major part of the expenditure, about £14.9 million, will be on equipping additional television studios and renewing various production facilities in the existing studios. This would allow the service to provide more home-produced material and to keep abreast of the latest developments in production equipment. RTE also expect that the improvement of television and radio reception will cost £4 million. A large part of this cost will be incurred on extending RTE 2 to those parts of the country where a satisfactory service is not yet available. RTE plan to improve their regional inputs into the national services and to provide new television centres in Cork and Galway.

The Radio na Gaeltachta studios in Kerry and Donegal are also to be extended. All of these developments will cost about £2.6 million. Finally, RTE would like to provide for the development of radio production facilities and various other support services at a cost of about £2 million.

I made clear in my opening statement that this Bill does not imply any approval of RTE's plans for the years up to 1983. Each year's expenditure and advances will be subject to examination annually in the context of the public capital programme. The total expenditure of £23,500,000 envisaged by RTE included expenditure in the current financial year. The programme for the current year has, of course, been approved by the Government and it provides for repayable Exchequer advances of £2.45 million towards a total expenditure of £5.15 million. As I also mentioned in my earlier speech, about £1.8 million of the repayable advances approved for this year cannot be paid over until this Bill is enacted. RTE have submitted their case for expenditure and advances for 1980 and it is being examined currently with the rest of the public capital programme.

Deputy Horgan also asked if it was intended when the RTE Authority were set up that borrowed capital should always be repaid. The statutory position is that the terms and conditions as to repayment of Exchequer advances are proper to be determined by the Minister for Finance. The Department of Finance have proposed arrangements for repayment of advances made to RTE up to the end of 1978. This has been referred to RTE for their observations, which are awaited.

In the course of the debates on the Broadcasting Authority Bill, 1959, it was made clear that the establishment of a television service should not give rise to any ultimate charge on the Exchequer. Provision was made for repayable Exchequer advances up to £2 million for capital purposes. The bulk of this amount was to meet the cost of provision of the television transmitter network and studios. The then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs stated in the Seanad on 10 February 1960 that RTE would be expected as soon as possible to put themselves in the position of repaying the capital borrowed. Therefore, after a period of almost 20 years it is not unreasonable to expect the RTE Authority to begin repaying the Exchequer advances made to them.

Deputy Deasy expressed concern at the level of television licence fee evasion. I share this concern and my Department are doing all in their power to combat the problem through special campaigns, door to door inspections, the use of information supplied by television dealers, and so on. Unfortunately, it is exceedingly difficult to convince the hard core of licence evaders that they should make their just contribution to the cost of running the broadcasting service. The problem is not peculiar to this country. I have no doubt that every Member of the House would agree that everybody should pay his licence fee.

Reference was made to the need to introduce a computerised television licence system. This matter is under consideration in my Department, but it is too early to make a statement on the matter.

Deputy Deasy, Deputy O'Keeffe and other Deputies referred to difficulties with television reception in various parts of rural Ireland and the extension of coverage of RTE 2.

The provision of the transmitter network for RTE 2 is, of necessity, a phased development. The first phase which has been completed, involved the provision of six high power transmitters which provide coverage of RTE 2 for approximately 90 per cent of the population. Provision was also made to provide RTE 2 at a number of low powered transposers from the outset for operational reasons. This approach also had the advantage that the new service was provided for the greatest number of viewers in the former single channel area from the beginning.

RTE say that their main development priorities for improvement of reception are: the provision of new stations for RTE 1 and RTE 2 at Holywell Hill, County Donegal and Clermont carn, County Louth. These stations are expected to be in service in the latter part of next year; the extension of RTE 2 and RTE 1 over North Mayo and West Galway; the completion of coverage in West Kerry; the planning of coverage for South Tipperary, North West Donegal and West Clare areas.

The improvement of reception in a number of other areas is likely to require the provision of additional transposers and adaptations to existing transmitters. A very large volume of investigative work is now being carried out by RTE to determine how best RTE 2 may be provided from those transposers not yet equipped for the service. RTE are pressing ahead as quickly as possible with this work which is both complex and time consuming.

Deputy Deasy also referred to reception of RTE television and radio programmes in Nothern Ireland.

About 14 per cent of the population of Northern Ireland can receive satisfactory reception of RTE television signals at present using simple outdoor aerials. Fringe type aerials may give a service of variable quality to a greater proportion of the population. Overspill of signals from new stations in Donegal and Louth, which are necessary to improve reception in those areas, will improve the position somewhat. However under international regulations the power of transmitters must be limited to that necessary to provide satisfactory reception within the borders of the country concerned although it is understood that some overspill is unavoidable.

Deputy Deasy referred to a demand for a greater provincial input to RTE programming. RTE envisage greater emphasis on regional production and they are planning to spend some £2.6 million on provincial radio and TV facilities over the next four to five years. The techniques to be used for regional input to the national network is a matter for RTE. However, I am aware of the existence of technology such as electronic news gathering which facilitates the speedy preparation of news items.

Deputy Hegarty referred to advertising and Deputy Kelly mentioned it also. Deputy Hegarty said that RTE should get out of advertising altogether when the independent local radio Authority is established. This just would not be feasible. In the financial year ended 30 September 1978 RTE received over £12 million in advertising income. This was somewhat more than they received in television licence fee income and only £2.9 million in respect of radio advertising. There is just no way that RTE could recover the loss of advertising income without a very substantial increase in the licence fee—even a doubling of it. I doubt that Deputy Hegarty and Deputy Kelly would support that.

I do not propose to go into any detail in replying to the points made by Deputy Keating, because he was clearly speaking with his tongue in his cheek. I cannot, however, let him get away with his statement that RTE have never made any demand for the exclusive right to broadcast and with the extract he quoted from RTE's last annual report in support of that statement. I would simply like to quote the full paragraph which he conveniently left out from the RTE Report. Deputies will see that what the RTE Authority had proposed was that they themselves should be given authority to provide a second national radio service and to introduce local radio services in a number of centres.

Deputy Keating suggested that RTE made no demand for local services. We had submissions from the Authority with regard to setting up local radio in Dublin, Cork, Shannon and other parts of the country. We had made a firm decision and we did not acceed to that request. The paragraph reads:

As in the case of television, the Authority had long been of the view that a single radio channel was inadequate for the provision of a full range of programming and of programme choice to the listener. Attention had been drawn on a number of occasions to the need for a second national radio channel. Moreover, the need for local radio stations offering a communitybased radio service to the public was also clear. While every effort had been made within the constraints of a single channel to offer as comprehensive a programme service as possible, to provide some programmes choice through the VHI network, and to increase the number of programmes originated outside Dublin, these measures were by definition of limited effect. The Authority, during the year under review, sought the formal approval of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to the introduction of a second national radio channel and to the introduction of comprehensive local radio services in a number of centres.

Deputy Keating and Deputy Deasy were critical of my Department in enforcing the law against the operators of illegal broadcasting stations. As reported in the Official Report of 29 December Deputy Deasy said:

It is unfortunate that the operators of such stations are labelled as pirates and as people who are breaking the law. The fact is that they are good people who have a certain skill and acumen and are using it as they see best. They are giving good employment and great enjoyment to large sections of the community. Rather than prosecute and label them as law breakers we should be endeavouring to bring them within the ambit of a legal broadcasting system and give them the opportunity to partake in the independent local broadcasting system throughout the country.

Deputy Keating complained bitterly that the operators of illegal broadcasting stations, whom he describes as people with entrepreneurial flair, a sense of adventure and a desire to communicate at local level, are branded as law breakers. I doubt that anyone in this House would support people who are not operating within the law. I am sure we would be criticised on this side of the House if we did not uphold the law. We took decisions in my Department to ensure that the law was upheld. We cannot be criticised for that. That is our policy. Everybody should be equal before the law. I believe that my Department were right to make decisions to ensure that the laws of the State are upheld.

They are trying to take over the mantle of the law and order party.

(Dublin South-Central): Not necessarily. I am sure that Deputy Horgan would not advise us to allow the law to be broken.

We are asking that the matter be regularised. The Minister is misinterpreting what has been said on this side of the House.

(Dublin South-Central): I am not misinterpreting what has been said. Deputy Deasy referred to the fact that the output of educational programmes on RTE had fallen and sought the establishment of an “Open University” type service here. The cost of such a service would have to be borne by the Department of Education. The Department of Education have been unable to bear the cost of “Telefis Scoile” programmes in recent years. Despite this lack of financing, RTE have retained “Telefis Scoile” on a modified scale and at a much reduced cost.

The Open University in Britain is a system of higher education for adults involving a partnership between the BBC and the Open University—an independent teaching and degree awarding university. The BBC produces and broadcasts programmes for Open University students in a close working relationship with the university. The British Government pays a grant to the Open University and they in turn meet in full the BBC production and programme costs. Students pay a proportion of tuition fees, the cost of summer schools, books and other expenses to the university. The cost of an open university here would be very great in relation to our resources.

The question of any expansion of formal educational broadcasting on RTE is really a matter that should be pursued with the Minister for Education. In this connection I should say that the Broadcasting Review Committee, who reported in 1974, came to the conclusion that the arrangement whereby the Department of Education pay for programmes produced for and broadcast to schools should continue.

Deputy Horgan asked if it is intended that a person seconded from the employment of RTE could return to exactly the same position in RTE at the end of his service in either House of the Oireachtas. The answer is no. He could merely be entitled to re-employment in RTE in a post of the same or similar grade. In this connection, Deputy Keating wrongly interpreted the section. He said that the section limits the freedom of RTE members in relation to access to the House. The present provision guarantees that members of RTE can return to RTE. In the past they had to resign on coming into the House. Now that they can be seconded. I am surprised that Deputy Keating should take that interpretation of section 4 of the Bill.

Why does the Minister not extend it to some of his other employees?

(Dublin South-Central): The Deputy knows that this section has been inserted in legislation from time to time.

When Posts and Telegraphs become a semi-State body, will their employees have the same right?

(Dublin South-Central): Deputy O'Keeffe asked if RTE were giving good value for money. I would refer the Deputy to Occasional Paper No. 23 of the National Prices Commission, published in December 1976. This report was prepared by consultants engaged by the commission to examine the operations of RTE. The report states that the consultants' studies of other broadcasting organisations led them to the conclusion that RTE are by no means inefficient in comparison.

I have no reason to believe that the situation is any different now. In fact, the advent of RTE 2 and Radio 2 has undoubtedly brought about a greater utilisation of existing resources. Deputy O'Keeffe referred to over-staffing, inefficiency and so on. I am sure that Deputy O'Keeffe will find Occasional Paper No. 23 of the National Prices Commission interesting reading in regard to the efficiency and operation of the station.

While I said at the opening of my reply to this debate that it would be inappropriate for me to comment on programming matters on RTE—and I am sure that Deputies realise that I have no function in regard to the day-to-day operation of their programmes—I must refer to Deputy Enright's remarks about the lack of investigative journalism in recent years. The Deputy quoted the "Seven Days" programme on illegal moneylending which was broadcast by RTE in 1969 as an example of the sort of thing RTE should be broadcasting. I would remind him that it was necessary to set up a tribunal to inquire into, inter alia, the planning, presentation and authenticity of that programme and that RTE came out of the matter very badly.

The Government investigated the programme; they did not investigate moneylending.

(Dublin South-Central): They investigated the lot. Deputy Enright approves of that kind of journalism. I found the misinterpretation of section 3 of the Bill most confusing. I have explained to the House that section 3 is only for clarification. We were advised by the Attorney General that the constitutionality of local radio operating at present under the Authority is questionable. He advised us that we should avail of the opportunity to rectify the matter. The case was made that we should have waited until the new Bill was introduced. It would not be an appropriate Bill in which to insert a section like this. We are introducing a Bill establishing an Independent Authority. In 1978, RTE applied to the Department for permission to extend local radio. Their application will not be sanctioned by the Minister until the Bill establishing an Independent Authority comes before the House. We were hoping to have the Bill circulated before Christmas but it has been delayed. When the Bill is circulated, Deputies will be able to see that we are not strengthening the monopoly of RTE. Their monopoly will not exist once the Bill has been enacted. Let us hope that it will be enacted early in 1980.

We will see about that.

(Dublin South-Central): The Taoiseach on 30 March 1979 made a statement in connection with this matter. I am sure all Members appreciate the difficulties involved in drafting a Bill and the length of time it takes to get it through the various Departments and the Attorney General's Office. We had hoped to circulate the Bill before Christmas but I can tell the House that it will be circulated early in the new year. We cannot be accused of dragging our feet on this matter. The commitment made by the Taoiseach in March will be fully implemented in the new year.

I should like the Minister to give the House his ideas in relation to Radio na Gaeltachta, a station he has not mentioned so far.

(Dublin South-Central): Deputy White felt that people in the Mayo Gaeltacht should have their own local radio stations and should be able to get reception of Radio na Gaeltachta on VHF. He stated that many of the people living in that part of the country do not possess sets with VHF bands. There is a problem with regard to VHF. Is that what the Deputy is concerned about?

I am anxious to get the Minister's general philosophy in regard to Radio na Gaeltachta.

(Dublin South-Central): There are certain difficulties in regard to frequencies but it is the Minister's policy to extend the Gaeltacht service as much as possible. We will make every effort to improve reception in the Gaeltacht areas. The money being provided under this Bill will go towards the provision of studios for Radio na Gaeltachta. The money will not go to an isolated section of the broadcasting service but will be distributed throughout the service. However, a considerable amount will be devoted to the rural studios to improve local productions. As I pointed out, a certain amount of money is due to the Authority. In last year's capital budget that money was voted to the Authority but it is not possible to transfer it until this Bill is passed. There is a balance of £1,819,000 still due to the Authority from last year's capital budget and for that reason I would be obliged to get all sections of the Bill today.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take the next Stage?

For the past two or three weeks we have been treated to this kind of demand in the House which amounts to nothing short of blackmail. We have been told that unless we do certain things by 5 p.m. on Thursday or Tuesday somebody would go without an allocation. Obviously, there is bad planning on the Government's part. I do not know where the fault lies but I wish to protest formally at this kind of attitude. Again, we have the Minister demanding we pass the Bill now or somebody will suffer.

Does the House agree to take the next Stage now?

Yes.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, and passed.

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