Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Feb 1980

Vol. 318 No. 1

Fisheries Bill, 1979: Fifth Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Mr. White

I should like to congratulate the new Minister on his appointment. He has asked me for complete backing and that I give him. I will give him complete co-operation in the interest of our fishermen. Naturally, if he introduces a Bill with which I disagree he can expect me to fight it in a dogged and determined manner. This Bill is important for our inland and inshore fishermen because it deals with everything from the centre of Ireland to 12 miles out. It is also a far-reaching Bill taking in lakes, rivers, estuaries, sea fishing, salmon fishing, aquaculture including scallop, mussel and factory farming of trout and salmon. I do not wish to repeat the suggestions I put forward on Committee Stage, but I should like to thank the former Minister, Deputy Lenihan, for bringing in certain amendments. He has shown that he listened to our contributions and appreciated the constructive approach of Deputy Treacy and myself. We do not criticise just for the sake of criticism but if we feel the Minister is doing anything wrong as far as Irish fishermen are concerned he will see the other side of us.

This legislation represents a tremendous improvement for our fishermen. I hope the Minister will now deal with the problems of the deep-sea fishermen who are not catered for in the Bill. I am sure he agrees that legislation is needed in that area so that our fishermen will know exactly where they are going. At present deep-sea fishermen do not know where they are going. They have not received any directive from the Minister, or the EEC, setting out what they should catch. The only thing that has come from Brussels is an announcement to the effect that there is a herring ban in operation in the Celtic Sea.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deep-sea fishing does not arise.

Mr. White

I hope the Minister will take the 12-mile limit seriously and that when he goes to Brussels he will seek such an exclusive limit. We have gone through all the provisions of the Bill with a fine comb and spent a lot of time discussing the 12-mile limit. The Minister must be aware from what transpired in the debate that in his negotiations with the Dutch, the French and the British he must insist on the 12-mile limit. There is something very wrong in a situation in which a person living 100 yards from the sea is not allowed to fish in that sea. That is the effect of the directive that has come from the big boys in Brussels in this regard. Regardless of what other spokesmen for this party have said in the past, it is my intention to insist on a 12-mile limit in respect of all fishing around the coast.

There is no encouragement for the fishing industry so far as the Estimates for the Department are concerned. I was very disappointed on finding today that in 1980 there is an increase of only £75,000 for this important industry. Presumably, this increase takes account of wage increases of the order of 20 per cent. In the context of a total estimate of more than £16 million it is ridiculous to talk in terms of an increase of merely £75,000. Regarding this Bill alone, I had been hoping for an increase of about £5 million. However, the Minister may be able to tell us that there will be a supplementary estimate to take care of the cost of this legislation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There will be an opportunity at a later stage to discuss the Estimates but they do not arise on this Bill.

Mr. White

My Donegal accent may cause problems for the Chair but I have not been dealing with the Estimates.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair understands the Donegal accent reasonably well.

Mr. White

It would be most regrettable that the fishing industry would be deprived of the finance necessary to enable them to put into effect the provisions of this legislation.

I note, also, that the amount of the estimate in respect of the acquisition of fisheries is merely £10. Perhaps the Minister can explain the reason for this. I share Deputy Treacy's hope in regard to the acquisition of fisheries. That is why I urge the Minister to ensure that where possible this policy is implemented. There should be as much acquisition as possible in regard to rivers, lakes and estuaries. But I agree with the Minister in regard to those fisheries which are in professional hands and which are being operated efficiently and restocked. There is no problem in regard to them but there are many miles of rivers and lakes that the State should be acquiring and I emphasise the word "acquiring". Perhaps one of the areas in which we have fallen down most during the past 50 years has been our failure to utilise to the full our natural resources. Commercial fisheries could prove very profitable if the right approach were adopted regarding their operation. Fishing is a big tourist attraction. Consequently, every effort should be made to encourage tourists to come here to fish in our rivers and lakes. I am not blaming this Government particularly for the present situation. Successive governments have failed to take advantage of what is one of our greatest natural resources but after the enacting of this legislation I shall blame the Government if the high hopes of the fishing industry, vis-à-vis this Bill, are not fulfilled.

An amount of £175,000 to deal specifically with sea development is not adequate in terms of the research, the development and the restocking that many people in the industry are convinced are necessary. It is ridiculous to talk of a figure of £7,000 for an inland fishery development scheme. During Committee Stage a good deal of time was spent talking about the task of cleaning up our rivers and lakes and of carrying our research projects in the interest of increasing fish numbers. A sum of £7,000 or, approximately, the equivalent of the salary of any one of us here, is a drop in the ocean in so far as this very important work is concerned. Having regard to these various points, I trust that the Minister will be able to tell us that funds will be made available to enable this legislation to be enacted in the spirit in which it is being discussed here.

We know that there is to be an overall central board under whose umbrella will be the various regional boards and that the chairman of each of these regional boards will be elected automatically to the central board. I take it that each of the regional boards will have a chief executive officer who will not be on the central board. However, these CEOs will have intimate knowledge of the operations of the boards and since they will not be on the central board, I suggest that they meet once a year in order to submit their findings for the entire country to the central board. The chairman will need to be briefed by the CEOs.

Neither this Minister nor his predecessor indicated at any stage what is to be the salary of one of these CEOs. I am not expecting the Minister to spell out a specific figure but I should like to hear what will be the grade at which these people will be appointed. My reason for raising this point is to emphasise the difficulty that would be likely to arise in attracting the right people for these jobs if the salary were not considered adequate.

Another point on which I should like clarification relates to the appointment of a chairman to a regional board. Will such an appointment be made by the Minister or by the board? I understand that the Minister will nominate a chairman to the regional boards. If that is so I should like an undertaking from the Minister that the people so nominated will not be Fianna Fáil hatchet men. I am not interested in what may be the political beliefs of any such person but I am anxious that the right person be nominated in respect of each board having regard to the importance of the industry concerned.

What salary will the chairman be entitled to? What travelling expenses will he or members of the board be entitled to? Will the other members of the board also get a salary? As far as the working of the regional board is concerned, this is the place to hammer out these points. To some people these points are incidental but, as has happened in the past, people were appointed to boards regardless of their capabilities. They were appointed for their political beliefs. If that happens in this instance, there will be an uproar in this House because we spent too many days discussing this Bill and we want to see the best people appointed to these boards.

Will it be laid down how often these regional boards will meet? On Committee Stage the then Minister was not very specific on this point. These boards will have a great deal of responsibility. I would like to see them meeting very regularly, at least ten times a year. It is very distressing to see young men with fishing boats being refused licences. For example, in one area 20 licences may be granted but two of them may not be used. The Minister should issue a directive through the central board that any body who does not fish a licence in every year automatically loses that licence. In the past, because of political pull, people on these boards may have been afraid to say that they would not give somebody a licence the next year.

As I explained earlier, the first structure is the regional boards, the next the Central Board and the third will be the Minister. The first point I want to discuss is the formation of the Central Board which will be made up of the chairman of each regional board. As regards voting in the regional boards, the Minister did not tell us exactly who would have a vote. He said everyone who had a licence was entitled to vote. He then went on to say there would be different panels drawn up, he would tell us on the Final Stage how these panels would be made up and how many people would sit on each regional board. The Department have had three months to consider this point.

It would not be wise to say that there would be ten or 14 people on each board because in some regions there are many varied interests. The trout anglers, lake anglers, estuary fishermen, sea anglers, aquaculture people and salmon fishermen need representation. It is not very important that the same number should sit on each board but it is very important that the Minister tell us how many members will sit on the regional board in the Ballyshannon area and what panels they will come from.

I hope the Minister has finally made up his mind where the head offices for the regional boards will be situated. I read recently that there had been a change in Limerick and I hope this is the last change we will see. The members of these boards are entitled to know that the regional board for the Limerick area will be situated in Limerick. I am very interested to note that the Central Board is situated in Galway and that regional boards are situated throughout the country. I hope the Minister will not go back on that.

I want to discuss the Minister's nominees on the Central Board. My great fear is that political nominees will be appointed. I want to stress that the Central Board is as important, if not more important, than the regional boards and I want to see the right people—people with knowledge, interests, and capabilities—carrying out this important work. The Central Board will have control over every river, lake and, if we can manage it, the 12-mile limit.

The Minister nominates three members. One must come from the Department of Fisheries. We want a knowledgeable officer appointed from that Department. Another nominee will come from the trade unions, and whoever the third member may be does not interest me so long as he has the expertise and knowledge needed on this board.

What salary will this executive officer get? Will all members of the Central Board be paid a salary? My understanding is that they will not, but they will be paid travelling expenses. A person travelling from Tipperary to Galway is entitled to claim travelling expenses. I suggest each member is also entitled to a salary. The people we want on these boards may have had to leave their businesses to serve on these boards and therefore they should be entitled to a salary to compensate them for the time spent looking after our fishing industry. As I said, this will be the ruling body for our fishing industry. I understand they will have to consult the Minister at certain times. The Minister is given responsibility as Minister for Fisheries and he should have the overall authority over all fishery matters. I welcome this as long as the Minister uses that authority correctly.

On Committee Stage we had some discussion about the compensation to be paid to workers in Dublin who will be transferred to the head office in Galway. Have the union officials met the workers? Has the Minister agreed that compensation will be paid to those workers who through no fault of their own but in the interests of fishery development are being transferred from Dublin to Galway?

I would now like to say something about the acquisition of fisheries. I agree with the Minister when he said recently that, if fisheries are being run properly and professionally and making money, he does not foresee having to take them over. There are a great number of rivers, lakes and estuaries which have not been utilised to the full extent. Much hot air is blown in this House about the fishing industry. If the Minister is serious about this industry he will have to give serious consideration to the lakes, rivers and estuaries which are not being utilised. The Minister is faced with one of the greatest challenges at the moment. The revenue from the fishing industry could possibly be increased tenfold in the next five years if the Minister gets sufficient money and the expertise to advise him and the fishermen.

I am still not satisfied with the way the ESB run their own hatcheries and fisheries. The ESB said in the past that there was no point in their spending the vast sums of money which were needed in fishing because we did not have the right fishery protection for the salmon stocks outside their estuaries. I hope that we have now drafted the legislation to ensure that as far as possible our salmon stocks will not be illegally fished in the future. The ESB will no longer be able to say that they will see how the fishing goes for the next year and then they will decide to re-stock. I blame them for the run down of the salmon in the rivers under their control. The last ESB report was very dismal reading for anybody interested in our fishing industry. If the ESB do not improve the re-stocking of the rivers under their control the Minister should consider taking them under his control. I am prepared to wait and see what they will do this year. I expect hatcheries which have been shut to reopen. The ESB should now start a re-stocking programme in relation to salmon and eel on all the rivers under their control.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair suggests to the Deputy that we are now getting into a full Second Stage speech. I have given the Deputy a tremendous amount of latitude, but I ask him to be brief, as required on the Fifth Stage.

Mr. White

I hope the Minister will do something about restocking the rivers I have referred to. A group of fishermen came to me recently about a lake in Donegal which was advertised in the Northern Ireland, English and Continental papers. I have written to the Minister asking him to ensure that this river is bought by the Department of Fisheries. It is not in the interests of this nation to have Continentals, English and Northern Ireland people being able to buy lakes and rivers. We have now got power in this Bill to ensure that the rivers and lakes stay in the hands of the Department. I hope that next year the Minister will be able to tell us that he has taken over 20 or even 50 lakes and rivers during 1980.

I was also delighted to hear from the Minister that compulsion will be used as far as the right of way to fishing in our lakes and rivers is concerned. I want to see a fair system established where people get licences fairly and fishermen fish fairly and, if they do not fish fairly, that they will be dealt with. I hope that this year we will see some solution to the herring problem, whereby we have not got an exclusive zone. If the fishermen went to the European Court and were able to show that they could not fish 100 yards from their foreshore, would that be upheld in the court? I want the Minister to do his best with regard to the 12-mile zone. I asked the Department recently what they did with the nets that are confiscated. I understand they are burnt.

Mr. Power

They are monofilament nets.

Mr. White

They are not all monofiliment. There is such a thing as a net being confiscated for fishing in the Celtic Sea and the net may be completely legal. If the nets are legal, they should not be burned. Auctions could be held once or twice a year and the Department could get revenue of perhaps £100,000 from these nets and the money put to some other use in the Department.

I mentioned the 12-mile zone and the herring stocks off the headlands. I emphasise again that, so far as we on this side of the House are concerned we are looking for a 12-mile exclusive zone from the EEC for the Irish fishermen. One cannot expect the small boats that fish in places like Donegal, Galway, Mayo and Waterford to throw away their livelihood because some directive comes from some 450 or 470 bureaucrats who have never seen the west coast of Mayo and who do not know how hard it is to make a few bob fishing for herring.

I want also to deal with aquaculture. I mentioned it on Committee Stage. One of the things proposed by the Minister is a salmon levy imposed on all salmon caught here. He did not state whether this would also apply to caged salmon as well as wild salmon. When we talk about wild salmon we are talking about the salmon that the dealers will be buying from the fishermen and we still do not know whether the levy will be on each salmon or on each pound of salmon.

Au Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should confine himself to what is in the Bill. He is discussing a lot of things that he thinks should be in the Bill.

Mr. White

This is all in the Bill. I am asking for clarification. Aquaculture is referred to in the Bill and the salmon levy is referred to in the Bill. That is the point I am making. I would like the Minister to tell us whether the levy is going to be imposed on each pound of salmon or on each salmon. I would also like to know the position in regard to farmed or caged salmon. These people should pay a levy just the same as the ordinary small fisherman off the west coast.

In relation to mussels, oysters, scallops and so on, I do not know whether there will be any levy attached to them. I understand that every person who is now involved in aquaculture will have to get a proper licence from the Minister. These people, in turn, will only be able to farm the area designated by the Minister as suitable for farming a particular species of seafood or salmon or trout. I am afraid that here the entrepreneurs I mentioned on Committee Stage could apply for vast stretches of sea coast. I suggested that these areas should be limited and I am disappointed that we have not got a commitment from the Minister yet. Areas should be limited regardless of who applies. If that is to be so—and I see the Minister nodding his head—I would like the Minister to state the maximum area that one company can apply for, because one could have seven or ten people in a company applying for an area of sea for farming, and if they acquired a big enough area this area could be worth hundreds of thousands of pounds in a couple of year's time if farmed properly.

I contacted the Minister regarding the information that was supplied to me. I understand that farm salmon and trout have caused pollution in the past. So far as scallop farming is concerned, the residue from the feeding in these intensive cages causes the shellfish to die in certain bays. I notice the reply I got from the Department is that in some cases this residue could help particular scallops to exist in the bay. I am not a technical man and I am sure the Minister did not sign his name to that letter without expert advice, but I have found that the scallops around a certain trout farm have died in the past couple of months for no other reason than from the residue from this farm.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has gone outside the scope of the Bill.

Mr. White

I would like a clear commitment from the Minister that no licences will be granted to any salmon or trout farm that would interfere in any way with the shellfish industry here. Shellfish are scarce enough around our bays and coasts at present. We have to look to the future. As far as possible, our shellfish industry should be encouraged along with the trout and salmon farms. There will be no serious development in the shellfish industry here until a remedy is found for what is called the red tide. A few people are now training to be marine biologists but most of these marine biologists would be very wary of investing the substantial sums that would be required for this type of farming until a remedy is found for the red tide. I would encourage the Minister to spend money, get his people out there and try to find a solution—and a solution can be found for all these problems. A solution can be got if the right experts are sent out to find the answers. I would like to see the question marks in regard to the red tide cleared up as soon as possible and then the people who have the money and even the co-operatives who have not got the money but who have the personnel will see to it that probably the most important angle of our fishing industry, the seafood industry, can be developed properly.

Finally, I would like to thank the previous Minister and the present Minister for their co-operation in this Bill. I would like to thank their staff for the co-operation they have always given both Deputy Treacy and myself. There is no such thing as a completely satisfactory Bill, but this is certainly a good Bill. It is trying to tie up a lot of the strands that have been left loose for too long. I hope the Minister will accept the challenge of the fishing industry. I hope he will prove to be a good Minister who will come up with the right solutions.

Mr. Treacy

I have already pointed to the important features of this Bill. On Committee Stage I have criticised what I consider to be its defects. It is not my intention, nor is it usual, to delay long on the Report Stage. The Central Board and the regional boards established under this Bill have a great opportunity to make a break-through in respect of this rich asset which our country enjoys, our fisheries. The abolition of the old boards of conservators was long over due. However, they did the best they could in difficult circumstances. They did not have the finances to do their job in respect of fishery protection, particularly the twin scourges of pollution and poaching. We are grateful to them for having carried on under such great disadvantages.

I welcome the main features of the Bill and hope they will be effective under the joint management of the Minister and the boards in the matter of conserving our inland fisheries. All is not well with the industry. There are rumblings of discontent. There are grievances and fears and expressions of genuine concern about mismanagement in this whole area. Therefore, the new boards and the Minister will have an important role to play.

I am particularly concerned about the employment involved in the proper utilisation of our inland fisheries. In this respect I share the anxiety of Deputy White about the advent of fish farming or aquaculture and the possibility of very large companies taking over large areas of our coastal waters to the detriment of small local communities. Aquaculture has great employment potential among local fishing communities, but let us not tolerate a takeover by the big ones whether they be of the home breed or internationals. Any future development in regard to fish farming should be done in close liaison with local fishing communities—let the local people be involved to the maximum possible extent. From the point of view of commerce it might be advantageous to allow the big ones to take over but I submit it would be anti-social. It should be watched carefully because it could provoke a very reactionary response along our coasts.

Deputy Lenihan, who introduced the Bill, was right when he said that the main thrust of the legislation was the development of our inland fisheries as distinct from their protection, which heretofore had been the responsibility of the old boards. He came to the nub of the thing when he said that all the grandiose schemes we had in regard to the new boards would come to nought unless backed up by the necessary finance. When he was introducing the Bill he said that implementation of its proposals would require substantially increased expenditure, and he added: "Perhaps I should say increased outlay on investment rather than expenditure".

It is not my intention to delay the enactment of the Bill but I should like to point out that the Book of Estimates which we have before us today shows a serious deficiency in regard to moneys required to implement any good provisions in this Bill. The increase shown in the Estimate is hardly enough to meet the cost of inflation, which is estimated to be running at 16 per cent or 17 per cent and may reach 20 per cent. Unless the Minister comes back to us by way of Supplementary Estimates to provide more money, I am afraid all our endeavours will not be of any avail. If he does that he will have the support of my colleagues and myself. Otherwise he and the boards will be inhibited through lack of funds.

I wish to repeat my good wishes and to say that I congratulate the Minister's predecessor and thank him for the courteous, sympathetic way in which he met our suggestions in regard to the Bill. I hope the Minister now in the House will take a personal interest in getting rid of the scourge of pollution through centralised effort. At the moment pollution is being tackled by several Departments and I am afraid that what is everybody's business is nobody's business, and the situation is getting worse.

I have mentioned a river in my constituency, the River Suir, which is a sorry sight from time to time. In recent years there have been massive fish kills of a very sad and distressing nature. I know that local authorities are involved and also that the effluent from industry and farms is responsible to a large extent, but unless the scourge of pollution is tackled effectively much of what is good in this Bill will come to nothing.

I was heartened by the Minister's indication that within two months of this Bill being passed by the Seanad it will become law. I look forward to that and I look forward in particular to the effective development, protection, conservation and management of our inland fisheries under the aegis of this Bill. I wish the Minister well in that regard.

Mr. Deasy

I wish to welcome the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry to the House. I did not have the opportunity to do so previously and I wish him every success in his job. It will not be an easy task. He will have an uphill struggle when we consider the Book of Estimates which we received today. There is an indication there that development of inland fisheries will be strangled by lack of finance. However, the Minister with his ability and enthusiasm can make up for this to a large extent. I found wanting in his predecessor the will to eradicate illegal fishing, especially illegal drift net fishing and poaching up river.

This Bill was formulated on the report of the Inland Fisheries Commission, which was published in 1976. The commission was established in the early 1970s mainly to conserve salmon, which it was obvious was on the point of extermination because of illegal fishing. The report was excellent and so is the Bill. If it is implemented as we would like I shall have the greatest confidence in the future of inland fisheries. Unfortunately, I am afraid the Bill will not be enacted into law in 1980 because of financial restrictions. On page 52 of the report——

An Ceann Comhairle

We are on Report Stage and we are strictly confined to what is in the Bill. Deputies should refrain from bringing in other matters such as what is contained in the Book of Estimates.

Mr. Deasy

There is great relevance attached to the Book of Estimates as it has been published today. We are speaking about a Bill which will depend for its enactment on those Estimates. There is no provision in the Bill for expansion of staff or the provision of other equipment for inland fisheries. That must cause great public concern. As the previous speaker stated, inflation is forecast at 17 per cent for this year. Obviously there will be serious cutback in the development of inland fisheries, and this is quite alarming. It is my view that the situation which has obtained during the past ten or 12 years will worsen steadily. Deputy Treacy pointed out that we spoke here for days about the acquisition of fisheries that are presently in private hands which are not being operated properly and of fisheries where apparently there is no owner. There is no provision for the acquisition of such fisheries. The figure provided last year was £53,000, but the figure presented to us today was £10—absolutely nothing. My misgivings about this matter can be readily understood.

As I said at the outset, the primary reason for the Bill is to protect salmon. The report of the Inland Fisheries Commission, on which this Bill is based, went to great lengths to decry the methods used by drift netters. I agree with the report and with the Bill with regard to this matter. Illegal drift netting should be eliminated at all costs, but I wish to stress that it should be illegal drift netting. Restrictions should not be put on the legally licensed drift net fishermen—there are 3,000 such fishermen engaged on this work. Employment is given to two or three times that number at sea and on land, those who are engaged in the transport and ancillary industries. The industry employs about 10,000 people and it is endangered by the uncontrolled illegal drift netting off the west coast and particularly off the Shannon Estuary——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is making a Second Stage speech. This is unprecedented on Report Stage.

Mr. Deasy

The Bill will have no function whatever unless we can eliminate illegal drift netting and I would ask the Minister to give this matter his close attention. Otherwise the salmon stock will be eliminated. We received numerous promises from the previous Minister, Deputy Lenihan, on this matter. Two years ago he actually offered to resign if he did not do something about the matter, but nothing was done. I appeal to the Minister to give the matter his attention.

As Deputy Treacy pointed out, pollution causes much damage to our inland fisheries but it has been grossly underestimated. Unfortunately, the legislation dealing with water pollution is not succeeding——

An Ceann Comhairle

I wish to remind the Deputy that we are on Report Stage of the Bill before the House.

Mr. Deasy

Inland fisheries will not exist if there is not strict control over pollution. When the legislation dealing with water pollution was being debated in the Seanad I said that the Department of the Environment was not the body to enact that measure, that it would be much better if it were under the aegis of the Department of Fisheries. The measure has failed singularly in its function to eradicate pollution which is exterminating fish stocks in major rivers and lakes. It is hitting at the whole basis of our inland fisheries structure. As late as last week one of the primary inland fisheries lakes, Lough Sheelin, was again heavily polluted——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not relevant.

Mr. Deasy

That degree of pollution should not be tolerated. This Bill is based on the report of the Inland Fisheries Commission. Unfortunately, one of the points which that commission came out most strongly in favour of is not dealt with in this Bill. I would like the new Minister to be aware of that because members of the commission have been and are greatly perturbed that one of the strongest recommendations that they made——

An Ceann Comhairle

This is a matter to be raised on the Second Reading of the Bill. We are now on the Fifth Stage.

Mr. Deasy

One matter of major importance is the reference to arterial drainage and the manner in which arterial drainage is damaging fish stocks.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not relevant.

Mr. Deasy

This is not attended to in this Bill to any degree whatsoever. There are very fine points in this Bill. As I said at the outset, it is an excellent Bill and we must welcome the democratic method of the election of conservators which up to now has been largely a landlord's prerogative. People could obtain a seat on a board of conservators merely because they had such and such rateable valuation on a river. That day is gone and the new system is to be lauded. It is an excellent system and I hope it comes into effect. I am afraid that finance may prohibit the formation of the seven regional boards and the Central Board, which constitute the very basis and structure of this Bill. Finance may be a prohibiting factor. It may be also a prohibiting factor on the very desirable improvement in working conditions of the employees of the various boards of conservators. Up to the present they have been working under dreadful conditions. This Bill gives them a sound footing and puts them on the same basis as any other State employee or civil servant. They will have good conditions of pay and work and a superannuation scheme, which previously did not exist. They will have permanent, pensionable employment. That is excellent, and I hope that it will come about in 1980. Unfortunately I have a dreadful fear that the lack of finance is going to strangle the legislation before us today.

Finally, I make a plea to the Minister to see that, despite the fact that he has not the finance he needs, the legislation is worked to the utmost advantage of our inland fisheries. I would like to see an improvement in the licensing system, which at the moment is being abused left, right and centre, and that every native Irish fisherman who earns the greater part of his income from fishing is given the opportunity to fish for salmon, as has not been the case up to the present. There has been selectivity and discrimination. These must be eliminated and it will not cost the Minister a penny to do so. I would like him to show the will, which I think he has, and the courage, which I have no doubt he has, to see that we have a fair system and no longer a feudal system which has been ruling the inland fisheries in this country up to the present.

Minister for Fisheries (Mr. Power)

With your permission, Sir, I desire to bring to the attention of the House that the comma on page 63, line 55, was inserted inadvertently into the Bill and should be deleted.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the House agree that the typographical error be rectified?

Deputies

Agreed.

Mr. Power

Deputy White questioned the composition and formation of the Central Board and regional boards. I am entitled to nominate not fewer than four and not more than six members of the Central Board. One of these will be the chairman and he will be paid a fee. Of the others one will represent the workers and the remaining nominees will be used by me to redress any imbalance in representation of the various interests on the board. If one interest seems to be over-represented, I will endeavour to redress that imbalance. Only the chairmen of the Central Board and the regional boards will receive any remuneration. All the other members will get travel and subsistence allowances at civil service rates. An order will be made as soon as the Bill is enacted which will specify the total number of members on each board—it will be either 14 or 16—and the classes of fishermen who will be represented on each board and the number of seats allocated to each category. This will vary in the different regions in accordance with the various kinds of fishing that will be carried out in each region. The regional boards will meet in accordance with the standing orders that they adopt as soon as they are set up, and the Central Board must meet at least four times a year. In all probability they will meet more often than that. Board members will receive civil service travelling and subsistence rates for their attendance at board meetings. Chairmen will receive a fee but the members will not.

The fact that the CEOs might not be present at the meetings of the boards was mentioned. They can be present at the meetings of the boards and in all probability their various boards will request them to do that. The members of the regional boards will elect their own chairmen.

With regard to the acquisition of fisheries, the £10 has been raved about here quite a lot. It is a token provision. If the acquisition of private fisheries is required we will provide money for that.

Mr. White

From where?

Mr. Power

The bulk of the development work that I envisage at the moment will be achieved by private fishermen and some public fisheries and we hope to get their co-operation in developing fisheries without having to acquire them.

Deputy White made reference to our research facilities and he was doubtful whether we had made provision in the Bill for them. I have read in the report of the debate on the Bill that some Opposition Members requested that they be allowed to visit Abbotstown. I hope they have permission to do that.

Mr. Deasy

Yes.

Mr. Power

I got the opportunity recently and I think Deputies will be very pleasantly surprised with the facilities and the dedication of the staff there. We have there a facility which is second to none. If someone was visiting this country and wanted to see our facilities we should be very proud to show them what we have and what is going on there.

Deputies indicated that the Estimates for 1980 will not be adequate to meet the demands we have. We will get a substantial sum from the levy on first sale of salmon, from 5 to 10 per cent, and we will have subscriptions from trout anglers, coarse fishermen and sea anglers which will bring in additional revenue. We will see that the Bill will be enacted this year and put into operation, but the full effects of it financially will not be felt in 1980. When the boards come into existence they will have to assess the services within their regions and draw up their programmes of work. These programmes will be considered by the Central Board and submitted to me. Therefore, even with the best will in the world, I do not visualise that the boards will become fully operative or active as we would like until the following year.

Deputy Deasy and Deputy Treacy dealt with lack of finance. I am confident that I have enough money available to me to carry out a planned, progressive fishing programme. We have spent the last two months preparing our Estimates and budget. Perhaps it was coincidental that we happened to meet in my constituency in Barrettstown on some of those occasions. Biblical fishermen are reputed to have laboured all night and caught nothing. I would not like it to be thought that I have laboured for the last two months and caught nothing.

Mr. Deasy

The Minister might have caught a cold. But the proof of that will be seen.

Mr. Power

Aquaculture was mentioned. I assure Deputy Treacy that licences for salmon fish farming will not be issued in any area where such activity would affect adversely the shell fisheries. With regard to mariculture, when an area is being designated or is hoped to be acquired an inquiry is always held and the shellfishing interests in any area can put forward their claims on an area at the time. Areas that will be designated for mariculture can be very large but applicants will be given licences only in respect of the small areas which are necessary for their particular project. In other words, they will be allocated only a portion of a particular area that may be designated.

The salmon levy applies to all salmon. The rate of the levy cannot be decided until the Bill is passed, but it will be something in the region of between 5 and 10 per cent. All salmon fishermen will have to pay the levy and it will vary in accordance with the amount of fish they catch.

In relation to confiscated nets, illegal nets are destroyed and legal nets are usually resold by the board. It is important to ensure that the culprits are not in a position to repurchase these nets for a song, as they are sometimes in a position to dissuade their colleagues from bidding for them.

The ESB were criticised for their involvement in hatchery works. Their involvement results in substantial investment in fishery development over and above the funds provided by the Exchequer. The ESB have hatcheries on the Shannon and the Lee and the provision of a hatchery to restock the Erne is at present under consideration. We hope that this scheme will merit cross-Border co-operation or EEC grants for that purpose.

In relation to aquaculture, Deputy Treacy mentioned that we should ensure the involvement of small local people and I will co-operate in matters like that when asked. However, aquaculture is at a very experimental stage and it is not the gilt edged investment that people might imagine. If big firms show an interest and are willing to act as pioneers, to take the risk, and if they can afford the losses, the coast of Ireland is big enough to accommodate everybody both big and small.

In relation to the salary of the CEO, we will be looking for somebody of very high calibre. The regional board CEO could be compared with an assistant principal officer with a salary of £8,000 to £10,000 a year and the CEO for the Central Board could be classed as a principal officer.

Deputy White wanted an assurance that the chairmen of boards would not be Fianna Fáil hatchet men and I give him that assurance. These will be fishermen with dedication, dependability and integrity.

It was mentioned on the other side of the House that somebody had offered to resign if illegal drift netting were not wiped out. During my term of office I hope that the only people forced to resign will be illegal fishermen and poachers. I welcome the offer of co-operation in that regard.

I share Deputy Treacy's high regard for the old board of conservators. Their replacement by a new board does not mean that we do not appreciate the work they did in difficult times. I would not like them to be the unsung heroes of conservation today.

For the information of Deputies the headquarters for the eastern region will be in Dublin, for the southern region it will be in Clonmel, for the south-west it will be in Macroom, for the Shannon region it will be in Limerick with a suboffice in Athlone, for the western region it will be in Galway, for the northwestern region it will be in Ballina, for the north it will be Ballyshannon and the headquarters of the Central Fisheries Board will be located in Galway. Compensation will be paid to people who have to transfer and suffer disturbance at rates that were acknowledged as being correct.

I assure the House that I have sufficient finance to enable me to proceed with the Bill and that no programme will be stifled or hindered by lack of finance. I thank Deputies for the constructive manner in which they debated the Bill. As Deputies will be aware, several important amendments were made to the Bill during its passage through the House. These amendments have improved the Bill. This legislation has been eagerly awaited by everybody involved in fishing. It is an important step forward in re-organising existing structures in order to ensure the more effective control and development of our fisheries.

I thank Deputies for the courtesy they have shown on my first visit as a Minister bringing a Bill to the House, and I intend to keep my promise of co-operation with the parties in the House. The future of fishing is far too fragile to deserve any division. As Deputy Lenihan enjoyed the confidence of the House, I hope I will also have the confidence of the House and I look forward to the help of all parties.

Question put and agreed to.