Deputy Eileen Desmond was in possession when we adjourned last night and has 12 minutes left. Deputy Desmond not resuming, Deputy Briscoe.
Private Members' Business - Urban Violence and Vandalism: Motion (Resumed).
The following motion was moved by Deputy F. O'Brien on Tuesday, 29 April 1980:
That Dáil Éireann deplores the increase in violence and vandalism in urban areas and calls on the Government to introduce positive and comprehensive plans to eradicate this serious and growing problem.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann", and substitute the following:
"aware of the problems posed by acts of violence and vandalism in urban areas fully supports the Garda Síochána in the measures they are taking to deal with the situation."
—(Minister for Justice)
Deputy Desmond was under the impression that this would be concluded and that there would be a vote.
Deputy Desmond told me she would not be resuming this evening. She said she had ten minutes left.
I thought the Leas-Cheann Comhairle said Deputy Desmond was in possession.
Yes, she was in possession last night.
Due to a prior engagement tonight she told me she could not be here.
Deputy Eileen Desmond?
Yes. That is what she told me today. I am delighted that Deputy O'Brien gave us an opportunity to debate this motion. This is a problem which is of deep concern to me. One of the comments made by Deputy Desmond last night was that one should not be emotional when talking about vandalism or the problems being caused. I am extremely emotional about this subject because, like Deputy O'Brien and Deputy Keating, I have a constituency where the people have suffered very badly at the hands of a very few thugs and gangsters who have been able to cock a snoot at the law for so long.
The advent of Loughan House did help to contain some of that element. It has not been a popular cause to be in favour of by the media or by many social workers. I assure the House, and through it the media, that it is a very popular cause with the people who are the recipients of the violence that has been inflicted upon them by this small band of hard-core juvenile delinquents. I received a letter from a constituent of mine which I should like to read because it reflects so much better than I could the call from the hearts of many people in our city today for some alleviation of their suffering. That is very emotional language but as I said these are the people who are on the receiving end.
Anybody reading the Official Report, or the papers tommorrow if this letter is reproduced, will recognise the sincerity of the person writing it. I will not mention the name of the association because it would bring retaliation on some of its members by some of the young delinquents, aided and abetted by their fathers and older brothers in some cases.
The letter states:
Dear Mr. Briscoe,
I have to write to you again in connection with vandalism and general lack of law and order in the area of
She names here a particular corporation flats area.
Over the past few months the law abiding citizens have found to their cost that there is no advantage in contacting the gardaí when a crime is seen to be committed. The gardaí tell us they are undermanned and cannot respond to our calls any quicker than they do. Even when these thugs are caught they appear back on the street immediately, because under the present system they either get bail, appeal, or get concurrent sentences for a number of offences, which means that the punishment by no means fits the crime. You also have the ludicrous situation where some of these young thugs are let out for week-end "holidays" and immediately set about intimidating the old and infirm.
At the moment it appears to the ordinary citizen that they in fact are the prisoners, while these thugs roam at will. It is now extremely unwise for any resident or shop-keeper to leave their homes unattended in the evening, and it is nothing new for break-ins to occur in daylight. In the last three to four weeks the stolen car syndrome has appeared here also, and if they cannot get a squad car to chase them they simply crash into each other and then set fire to the cars. It is only a matter of time before a serious tragedy occurs with so many children and old folk in the area.
Lest you think that we have suddenly been invaded by a host of lawbreakers from other areas, let me tell you that 95 per cent of our problems are being caused by the members of three families and a couple of hangers on.
Needless to say, all of this activity has lead to a number of applications to the corporation for transfers. These are from residents of over 20 years standing who can no longer tolerate these conditions. When these flats fall vacant the corporation tries to re-let them, but when the new tenants arrive to view the flats, mostly old people, they are intimidated by these same thugs, with the result that approximately 16 of the 60 flats are now inhabited by squatters and several of them are considered the personal property of the local "Godfathers". They now play musical chairs moving around from flat to flat, so that under the present legislation there is no possible way for the corporation to dispossess them.
As in other areas, it is a very small minority who are causing all this trouble and heartbreak, and it seems unbelievable that nothing can be done to contain them.
As matters stand at the moment all faith has been lost in the gardaí, local representatives and the Government.
A good script writer.
The lady who wrote this would be hurt if she was regarded as that. It is from the secretary of a residents' association. I brought the Minister up to meet the association and talk to the old folks who were the subject of the intimidation. I know he went away very impressed. We did get a special squad car, the famous wagon, put on for about a month but then it was needed somewhere else. We will just have to get it back there again.
The Garda are demoralised because very often the courts cannot sentence some of these perpetual wrongdoers because Loughan House cannot contain more than a very small number. There is need for another institution similar to Loughan House. I read in the newspapers some weeks ago where, I think it was District Justice Kennedy, said that in Ard Mhuire in Lusk they are terrorising the local people. It is an open institution and they get out at night and terrorise the people. There is a need for containment.
I feel very frustrated because I love children and love to think that they can grow up in a country we can be proud of. Only recently one of my constituents came to me. She had been given a flat in one of these areas and while she was unpacking her few belongings she sent an eight-year old child out to get an ice cream. The girl came back beaten up and the money stolen. The woman would not take the flat even though it was in a very desirable area from the point of view of applications in Dublin. I do not want to be emotional about this, but one can imagine the impact that had on the child. I asked the woman if she would go back to that area and take another flat but she said no.
In another area where most of the residents had already purchased their houses from the corporation a house became available recently. All these people came with me to the housing department to plead with the head of the allocation section not to let a family with a long record of crime have the house. The corporation are not in the business of finding out the social record of applicants for houses, but they know their bad tenants and they know the families who need rehousing. Sometimes by putting many of these families together an enormous problem can be created in an area.
We hear about children being punished and vandals committing crimes. We are living in a society where all the emphasis is on the person who commits the crime and not on the victims and the people living in terror. It has been said in this debate that the protection of the public peace should be the concern of all citizens and that they should help the Garda, but they dare not do that because if they do their windows will be broken, their houses may be set on fire or their families may be threatened.
I was talking to a garda not too long ago and he told me he caught a 17 year old burglar in his house. He thought of giving the young man a good beating in the hope that that might solve the problem, but he did not. He brought him to court. What did he get? In spite of a string of previous convictions he was fined £5. That garda's children could not walk in peace through their own neighbourhood because this young man got his pals to intimidate them. There must be more facilities for the court to punish these perpetual offenders. We must get to grips with this problem. It is not a question of thousands of vandals. Our youth are grand people and most of them are the victims of a small group of thugs.
We are told that if more amenities were provided there would not be so much vandalism, but these things will always happen because there will always be a certain group who will not join anything. How many amenities in Deputy O'Brien's constituency have been burned down, vandalised and destroyed by such people?
The Minister referred to the stolen car which killed three people. He said he understood the 12½ year old boy's mother was joyriding in the car when the accident took place. This bears witness to the fact that many parents are involved with these young gangsters. There are a number of families in this city who are well known to the Garda. These godfathers are reigning supreme. I have the utmost confidence in the Garda because they have a very difficult job to do but they need a better back-up service.
Deputy O'Brien admitted there was a need for Loughan House and the Minister said he did not like having to bring in Loughan House. No one did but it was necessary. From Deputy Eileen Desmond's remarks last night one comes to the conclusion that the Labour Party do not have a policy to tackle this kind of crime. We are being told we cannot do this or we cannot do that to these children.
A woman visited my clinic recently and asked me to make representations to have her son freed or sent elsewhere. He and two other men had been sentenced to three years for a crime of violence. I told her that because of the viciousness of the crime I did not feel inclined to do anything for him. I said he should have got a good hiding from his parents when he was younger and she said her husband agreed with that. Her husband said short, harsher sentences would be better than long sentences. She said that the drink was to blame in her son's case.
I admitted that when I was 16 or 17 I too had a few drinks with the lads, but we did not go out looking for people to rob and beat up. We are being told that drink makes these people act in this way, but brutality is inherent in some of them. We have to try to break this vicious circle. Their parents' history is the same as theirs. When these young people with a very low IQ have children the cycle will be repeated, and we have to break that cycle.
Loughan House has turned out to be a great success. In spite of the attempts of many inmates to wreck it, a number of boys have benefited from it and I hope some day we will hear from them. Loughan House was set up to contain the hard core vandals. A possible solution to car ramming is for the Garda to adopt new methods to deal with this problem. Perhaps they could get from the Army, painted blue with the Garda Síochána badge on it, an armoured personnel carrier capable of carrying 17 men, park it down a lane and let the vandals ram a car when they are around.
These things happen simply because a few thugs are allowed into the streets. I do not want to be emotional about this, but it is something that must be stamped out quickly. There is need for more desperate measures if the situation is to be remedied. If newspapers play up these crimes people are at it all over Dublin. The stolen car syndrome has reached my area.
On the question of bail, the sooner the Minister brings in legislation to change the law in this respect the better. Any crimes committed while people are on bail should be punished by longer sentences. I think this would help to reduce the crime rate.
The solutions to this problem are long-term but we must also have short-term and intermediate remedies. It has been said that more gardaí are needed in the streets. We now have 1,500 more gardaí in the streets than last year but it does not seem to have made any impression on the crime rate. Every time an arrest is made a man is taken off the beat to take the case to court. What is needed is not more gardaí but the strict enforcement of the law, the tackling of small groups of families who are creating this problem. These families in my area are well known to the Garda and if the Garda were allowed to take these families off the streets and put them away for three or four years there would be a great improvement. However, the Garda are not getting the back-up in this respect and they are as frustrated as anybody else.
Deputy Eileen Desmond referred to children committed to Loughan House and said they were supposed to be the greatest offenders. They are not supposed to be the greatest offenders, they are known to be, with long lists of absconding from open centres. These people cannot be contained anywhere. They are the people I referred to earlier. One of them coming out of the Children's Court in contempt threw a brick through the window of a Garda car and gave the usual well known sign at the gardaí and there was nothing they could do about it. Recently a constituent of mine was battered to death in the streets of our city, a particularly vicious crime.
Deputies should not refer to cases before the courts. It is much wiser not to talk about them.
I did not say which case.
I am appealing to Deputies not to refer to cases before the courts.
The Minister referred to the task force being increased to more than double their size. I am glad to hear that and I should like to see a chief superintendent appointed to take over this work in relation to juvenile crimes. The JLO service is very good and those manning it do an excellent job. They have a chief superintendent in charge. They do great work among young people and they deserve all the support and finance they need.
Deputy O'Brien last night rightly referred to unreported crimes. People are fed up reporting crimes. Therefore, statistics do not mean a thing. People get rocks thrown through their windows every night and they have become fed up reporting it—they just put the window back and hope it does not happen the next night. I suggest that somebody should be appointed to take charge of the fight against that kind of vandalism for at least six months or a year. I should like to see better promotional possibilities for the JLOs. They are dedicated people. Society is too ready to expect dedicated gardaí in special branches to forego promotion opportunities in other branches of police work, and I suggest that special promotions or special recognition should be given to these people. It might help to ease the present level of crime.
I repeat that one of the most important methods of dealing with this kind of crime is to put away the small number of families who are responsible for most of the crime. I should like the Minister to get a breakdown from the Commissioner in regard to the families who create the problem in each area. The Minister should get a figure of the percentage of crimes that could be attributed in that way. If he gets the figures the Minister will see that there is no need to recruit another 10,000 gardaí. A garda to whom I spoke recently said that putting away such families would be like soaking up water with a sponge.
When speaking about the number of gardaí on the beat I can assure the House that very few gardaí would go into some of the areas in my constituency about which I have been talking. If they did I do not think there is an insurance company in the world that would give them insurance.
In this connection we always hear about deprived families. About 99 per cent of our people have been deprived in one way or another sometime in their lives. This is a country of self-made people. Since we achieved independence our people have been learning how to stand on their feet. Yesterday I spoke to a man who works a little bit of land in Crumlin—I suppose Deputies did not know there is land in Crumlin. He educated one daughter to become a barrister and another is doing another degree course. He is in market gardening and time and again he has seen his greenhouses smashed. He is coming to the end of his tether. Any money he has made he has put to the education of his children. Most people in this country have come from poor backgrounds and we can be proud of the opportunities that are given to our people to get on.
There is need to support the Minister in the work he is doing in this area. I should like to see Labour Party Deputies getting properly to grips with this problem. I should like to see them going through their constituencies and talking to the people there because they seem to be opposed to giving protection to the victims of crime. For instance, they have a motion on the Order Paper condemning Loughan House. Loughan House has been doing satisfactory work. The tragedy is there are not enough places there.
In conclusion I repeat that we should be giving more legislative backing to the Garda and we need a change in the law in regard to bail. The gardaí should be able to go in and get the families who are making life hell for other residents in flat complexes. If we could do things like that we would get rid of the problem in a short time.
This debate affords us an opportunity of discussing an issue which is of great concern to many people at present and I should like to support the general sentiments of the previous speakers from my own party in that regard. I shall try not to repeat what has already been put on the record, but will add one or two things.
It would be simplistic to extract, as it were, the problem of juvenile crime and see it in isolation. There is no doubt that it is a real problem. It would be wrong, however, if we believed that a simplistic, reactionary in the literal sense of that word, response was all that was necessary. The truth is that violence is endemic in the age in which we live. It surrounds us, permeates our way of life and undoubtedly influences very many of the actions of many people. We must make up our minds that violence is anti-social and anti-human and should be combated. I am mindful, as the father of two very young children—one four-and-a-half years of age—that I am increasingly having to explain the violence which is presented on the television, through the media, or on the streets to these innocent minds. I am often saddened by the thought that so many young people do not understand even the violence that we portray as entertainment—a plethora of superfluous and trivial alleged entertainment.
We do not bear in mind any longer the significance of somebody pointing even the image of a gun at somebody else's head. These are images which daily confront young people and adults. We have come to accept that this idea is part and parcel of life. There will be those who say that it has not been scientifically proven that television, for example, affects people. That is nonsense. The reason why advertisers spend millions of pounds honing the science of advertising to a fine art is that any communication influences people. It would be trite and erroneous to imply that commercial advertising influences and other material does not.
Violence begets violence and we have violence all about us. The problem of juvenile crime, delinquency, and vandalism, which is the essence of this motion, is much wider than building sufficient security detention centres and locking up young people in them. The area I represent—North Central Dublin—has had more than its fair share of adverse comment in this regard. Some effort should be made to redress the balance, even if only in a sentence or two. The reality is that when you pack 6,000 people into a street and deprive them of the normal facilities which any community in any part of rural Ireland would expect as part and parcel of a townland, you are creating a recipe for trouble, to put it mildly. I am very impressed by the fact that so many people live such decent lives under such terrible conditions. I have no doubt that if I were living in those conditions I would not be able to compete and succeed as well as so many of these people have under the extraordinary conditions. Most of us in this House have no idea what some people have to live with.
I am not suggesting that we should excuse all crime as having a social, or even a genetic, origin and being therefore somehow less offensive. It is profoundly shocking for old people to be terrorised. In parts of Dublin city at present the windows and balconies of people's flats are covered up with plastic and so on to stop interference, tampering and the rest of it. People are living in some cases in islands of fear, often cut off from normal community life, afraid to go out. I met one lady—I do not know if it was purely due to this reason or not—who had not been out of her third floor flat for 13 years. A flat, by the way, would be one room. I do not know how anyone stays sane in those conditions. I have great admiration for the gritty character of the average person in urban Ireland who will put up with the trauma of an environment which is truly stripped of any of those elements of civilisation which we consider normal or desirable.
We can draw a lesson from one instance. We all remember the Pope's visit to this country. During that visit he drove through the streets of part of my own area—not because it is my own area, I hasten to add, but because it was portrayed to him as being an area which had particular problems and which he should perhaps visit. On that occasion, the reception given to him was rapturous and the preparations were very magnificent in every sense. The young people there were very involved in the erection of an altar on the main street which was painted in the papal colours, bright yellow and white. A picture was erected, along with a vase of flowers. To this day, which is some six or seven months later, not one element of that altar has been interferred with or tampered with in any way. No graffiti has appeared and the picture has not been taken down.
If there is a real investment of resources, of love, of interest, of political commitment in people, they will respond. There will always be the incorrigible few who for one reason or another will not be able to mesh into that responsive framework and to whom a different approach may be necessary. We should not baulk at creating the institutions and framework in which these young thugs in some cases will have to try to rediscover the right way to live, if that is not too arrogant a phrase to use. It is our obligation, while this process of resource and commitment is going on, to ensure the protection of individuals. Nobody in this House, and certainly not the Minister, can believe that he has anything less than the full support of every Deputy in so doing. It is absolutely vital that we restore our cities and towns to normality, so that people can live without fear, go out to visit their neighbours at night and their young children can walk down the street at night without being molested.
The reality is that young people causing this crime are only a symptom, which is why the often simplistic and hysterical talk is too easy and too trite. They are not the beginnings of the problem, but the end. We should focus at least as much attention on the beginning as on the end. It is easy to do it the other way and it has short-term expedient, political popularity connotations associated with it. That may be, but I think people are more intelligent and more far-seeing than we in this House often give them credit for being. This balanced, rational, level-headed, sensible approach based on the twin concern of protecting people and ensuring their security, and at the same time analysing and realising the basic roots of the problem and responding on that level also, is the way to go about it.
The efforts of the Garda, local clergy, who are doing enormous work, local community workers, who are similarly doing extensive work in these areas and, particularly, the members of the juvenile liaison officer scheme of the Garda Síochána, are all to be commended. I was pleased to note the expansion of the JLO scheme involving both the Commissioner of the Garda and the Minister for Justice. That is the right approach, the preventative approach which really says that one pound of prevention is worth a thousand pounds of cure.
In regard to some of the items referred to by Deputy Briscoe, I have doubts about the rightness of the approach. I candidly and honestly believe that the only way we will ultimately make major onslaughts on crime in our community, which after all is no more than a continuum of other communities around the world in the context of a global village, shrinking daily by means of growing media communication, international travel, international influence and so on, is by creating the right kind of values in our society, the values of caring and sharing, of mutual affection and compassion, of neighbourhood community, of limiting the size of cities, of analysing the roots of urban sprawl and seeing the damage it does. All of these things come into it. How can we expect, as we do, a mother of six children to rear them in one room, with a television set in one corner, a child crying in a pram in another corner and perhaps a husband who cannot cope with all the problems drunk in the third corner? From my experience as a teacher, I know the problems of teaching in such a situation. Even if the children in the beginning are encouraged to go to school they cannot compete there. In some cases they go to school unfed. I should like to place on record my admiration for the work of the School Attendance Department of Dublin Corporation and, in particular, the Chief School Attendance Officer, Brian Doolin. He has commented on many occasions on the number of children who go to school daily without a breakfast.
It is too easy for us, adult well-fed males to get up here and hammer those children when they go wrong. Let us make an effort to get rid of those situations that diminish the dignity of the individual, which deprive him of equality of opportunity, which strip him of all the possibilities and potentialities that our children have and that we wish for them. Let us have the courage to face that kind of challenge. Many young people at the moment do not have a goal. The values we put forward for them are largely acquisitive, monetary and materialistic and they find them shallow. There is a great possibility of creating a kind of "peace corps"—something analogous to what was set up in the Kennedy era in the United States when Sargent Shriver formed such a corps for international work. I see no reason why that kind of principle could not be used here, utilising the goodwill and altruism of young people. They should be involved in a campaign to recreate an environment in our cities that would be beneficial to all.
In terms of tackling crime it is not a question of "us" and "them"; it is a question of all of us working together. We must try to lead people out of darkness, isolation and alienation rather than locking up people and throwing away the key. This is a major challenge where we could find again a new spirit, where we could apply ourselves with energy and where we could get a response from people. We hope the Minister will listen to the increasing need to respond to this problem.
As this is my first opportunity to do so, I congratulate the Minister of State at the Department of Justice. I wish him every success and happiness in his job. I hope his efforts in the Department will be crowned with success and I hope all of us will give him the necessary support in his work. So long as we keep a balance in mind, so long as we do not get sucked into some hysterical reaction too often ill founded for a reaction to trends that sometimes are more apparent than real, we will be doing a worthwhile job. However, we should not ignore the basic challenge which is about the kind of society we have. Therefore, we should see crime as a symptom rather than a basic disease. Nobody would be justified in diminishing the gravity of the situation at the moment. It is a major challenge. Let us hope that together we can bring about improvements in social, economic and cultural aspects. This will be necessary if we are going to have a meaningful and profound change so that the ugliness, the sordidness and the violence of the age will give way to an era of peace, harmony and stability where everyone has the right to be fulfilled and to have a place in the sun.
I should like to associate myself with the remarks of Deputy Keating in relation to the appointment of the Minister of State at the Department of Justice. I wish him well in his onerous task. He can rest assured that his efforts to amend existing legislation or to introduce new legislation for the furtherance of these worth-while aims will get the wholehearted support of this side of the House.
As a former member of the Garda Síochána, the present Minister of State at the Department of Justice is only too well aware of the kind of information needed to amend legislation in connection with the motion before the House. It is indicative of the change in Irish society that this House should have to debate a motion that deplores the increase in violence and vandalism in urban areas and that this party have had to call on the Government to introduce positive and comprehensive plans to eradicate this growing problem. As a result of changes in our society, we now find ourselves not able to cherish all the children equally as was envisaged in our Constitution. It is fair to say our country has come a long way from the vision of the founder of Fianna Fáil who spoke of "a land of comely maidens and athletic youths". That vision has not materialised.
Last week a former special counsel to a former President of the United States was in this country. He spoke of the tendency in the United States to incarcerate too many people. Since his rise and fall from the heights to the depths and his subsequent imprisonment, he became aware of the stigma in the United States attached to prisons. As a result of that he became involved in the Christian Leadership and Prison Fellowship Foundation and now he travels the world lecturing on the evils of incarceration. His theme here was that if this country does not become aware quickly of the increasing crime and do something about it, within the next ten or 15 years we will be forced to include in our budgets amounts of money to provide further places of detention such as Loughan House and the proposed institution at Lusk. These places never have solved and will not solve the problem entirely even though it is fair to say there will always be people in any country who will need custodial care of one kind or another.
I remember as a working student in New York going into Central Park and speaking to a young police officer who was literally armed to the teeth with his revolver and radio and every piece of police equipment he could have, including on a chain on his left hand, a killer alsatian. In his right hand he held a whip. These people were trained to shoot first and ask questions afterwards. I do not envisage that type of situation ever arising here. I hope we would not deteriorate to that extent in the scale of human deprivation. That was some years ago and since then there has been a dramatic change even in that most socially deprived part of the world, where the people themselves closed that park at weekends and took to walking in the only open spaces provided for them. The crime rate in that area dropped substantially because people in their own city decided to use the space available to them. That is in a different context to what is happening in this city. But it makes a point that people themselves can have a dramatic influence on the levels of crime in the cities in which they live.
The media which pump out so many million pounds worth of propaganda into our homes every evening from different parts of the world with a variety of so-called entertainment in some cases can play an effective part. At that time some years ago there was a very popular motion picture called "Death Wish" which described the efforts of an individual vigilante to wreak revenge on some offenders in this city in the US. The reaction of the American people was one of adulation. The national news media interviewed people in the streets asking for their views as to whether the theme of the individual vigilante being set up in different cities and extended to groups should be adopted in order to combat crime. It showed that people from what might be called middle or upper class areas had a basic fear of people coming from socially deprived centres. The greatest fear we have is the fear of the unknown. If they are afraid to meet them, speak to them and work with them on their own ground, channels of communication are never really opened and this great problem can never be really solved.
Areas in our own city here in Dublin where there are young people who are not cherished equally with others in the country are breeding grounds for depression and frustration and for the release of enormous amounts of aggression, when such young people from their cradle days see the outside world as presented to them in glossy magazines and on television. The result of all that is that in areas where the father is possibly an alcoholic and the mother never properly trained to raise a family, from the earliest days these people have an in-built aggression towards what they call "Them". This leads to an "Us" and "Them" situation which is not being tackled. The rising crime and vandalism rate will not be properly tackled until the "Us" and "Them" situation is eliminated.
The symptoms of violence and vandalism evident in this city are not really an expression of the whole situation but only one aspect of it which results from the inbuilt frustration and depression caused by changes and different levels in our society. Even in the most socially deprived centres in our cities we have people who are very rich in spirit who, if given the chance, can make a tremendous impact on their local communities. The vandalism taking place is not an expression of the whole problem but rather a symptom of something radically wrong, a symptom that will grow and develop unless necessary action is taken. It is fine for politicians to speak here in cliches about short-term, medium-term and long-term problems, crisis situations and so on but the vast majority here do not have to go into tenements where many have to live their daily lives and do not have to experience the very close and cramped living quarters existing there. They do not have the inbuilt fear shared by many of our very young and very old people of being robbed or assaulted. It is easy to speak here of these things from a distance. Again, it is an "Us" and "Them" situation; they are out there and we are in here and this is the place where the finance is voted, where laws are made or amended. Unless these people see actual change on the ground it will always be an "Us" and "Them" situation for them.
The very real problems these people experience in their daily lives must be seen to be believed and many Members of this House have not had that experience. Deputy O'Brien, representing the inner city area of Dublin, probably has more experience than most of us in this field and his views should be seriously considered. How many young people in the heart of the inner city have actually heard the swish of a hurley in wet grass or the thump of a football on a football field on a summer evening? How many of them have felt and know what it is like to work in the field with and against the forces of nature? If many of Dublin's young people were brought from the heart of the city to regions in the west even for short periods to show them what it is like, what actual physical, productive work is like it would have a major influence on their minds and their feelings. It would be a new experience for them.
It appears that the allocation of houses in the inner city area through the years has not, by and large been carried out successfully. If you house people who have already failed altogether it is logical to assume that the total plan will also fail. That does not say that you have not people in these areas very rich in spirit who can have a great influence on the development and progress of their communities. Changing people from inner city areas to places like Ballymun does not solve the problem but probably makes it worse in that the extent of crime and aggression can rise. It seems there are very few statistics available on the actual number of people who are not being catered for by the law in this respect.
Deputy O'Brien and all Deputies who represent the inner city areas experience through their constituency work the actual problems their people face and perhaps it is in order to suggest, and it might be worth bearing in mind that we should have an Oireachtas committee on youth affairs or youth problems specifically because the growing problem of vandalism and the increasing crime rate warrant progressive legislation. The views, experience, wisdom and ideas of those in this House who have worked in these areas through the years should not be forgotten or go to waste but taken in conjunction with the views of welfare officers, youth groups and social workers who work in the deprived areas could possibly enable us to come to an agreement that something positive and comprehensive could be done.
Last night the Minister for Justice said that parents and schools could do more. We can all agree with those sentiments. The basic idea behind any school is that it should be an extension of the home. If any teacher in any school finds that the school is not an extension of the home then he or she is simply wasting time trying to impose discipline on a set of pupils who do not want it, have never understood it and have never felt it. Teaching from that point of view is not a success. The school begins in the home and parents have a moral duty to impose the necessary discipline on their children and to bring them up in a proper, decent manner, and if parents have failed in that respect it is difficult for the children themselves to grow into a lifestyle that is proper, decent and far removed from the vandalism and violence into which so many of them drift. It is all right to speak of Loughan House and the detention centre at Lusk, but probably many of the young offenders who go in there know more about crime and vandalism when they come out than before they went in because they learn from their comrades—or compatriots if they may be so called—in those centres of things that possibly they did not know before they went in.
I have always believed in work and it might be worth bearing in mind that possibly many of the victims of these crimes are also believers in work and restitution. Perhaps something could be worked out in the area of getting these young offenders some sort of work either in the country or the city whereby part of the income accrued from that could be paid back in restitution to the people who were victims of the crime in the first place. Thereby the victim of a crime would be satisfied to a certain extent and a great social need would be fulfilled in that the young offender would experience the value of the physical fatigue that comes from a good day's work. If that were to happen, you would not have to the same extent the in-built aggression released in the shape of violence and vandalism on the streets of our cities. We will always have detention centres and there will always be people who will need custodial care, but God forbid that we have a rash of them as the result of negligence on the part of any Government. If ever collective responsibility comes into being, this is an area that we should take up very seriously indeed. It is all right to speak of short-term, long-term and medium-term solutions, but unless we do something in the short term it is more than likely that the problem will get worse. There are people in this country pedding drugs and young people are being drawn increasingly towards that and other related and very dangerous areas, and it seems as if we have not the forces and the necessary equipment to carry out remedial and educational measures and, in some cases, the proper legalising of all of these items, or to bring to the understanding of these young offenders what exactly is involved.
The housing, education and work needs of many of our young people are neglected totally. As I have said, it is very difficult for teachers to teach in schools to a decent level or to the level of professional training when the school is not in any way related to the situation in the tenements from which some of these people come through no fault of their own. An indication of the fear and basic mistrust that many of our employers have is that they will not accept the capacity for work and the character of many of the young people coming from these areas. Although they might be qualified for certain positions, simply because of their address they are not acceptable. Surely that is a terrible indictment on our society, on an any Government in office and on all of us. A person may be as capable if not more capable than people coming from a different area who apply for the same position, but yet is denied the right to work. Social workers send a young pupil from such an area to do an AnCO course and then find that, having fulfilled the course, that young person is not acceptable in the employment for which he or she is trained. That that should happen in 1980 is an indictment on all of us.
The Government amendment refers to the support given to the Garda Síochána in the measures they are taking to deal with the situation and I am glad that the amendment was phrased in the words "to deal with the situation". I feared at first that it would read, "to combat the situation". Had that been the case it would have been a clear indication of Government thinking in that it was really a case of us against them, a situation of war within our inner cities. You could move all the gardaí into the deprived areas of our cities and still they would not solve this problem. The sight of a Garda uniform is a deterrent in itself. It should instil a sense of discipline and of respect for people, property and places. In the main that does happen but in these socially deprived areas where this aggression is in-built and is being released as a symptom of this sickness in our society, all of the gardaí put together possibly could stop temporarily this increase in crime and vandalism but that would by no means get to the root of the evil or solve the problem. It is said that money is the root of all evil. It is probably true also that lack of money is the root of the greatest evil. The Government should think seriously about setting up an all-party committee to consider injecting the necessary finance through the Estimates into worth-while schemes for the proper training and rehabilitation of our young people in these areas and instilling into them a sense of respect, giving them something fulfilling to work for and something to strive for to give them a goal in life. We should at the same time educate our employers and instil in them the confidence to take on these young people after they have gone through the necessary training programmes and fulfilled the qualifications in that respect. There is much to be done in the area of social services and innovative education, in the area of community health, mental health, research, child care, geriatric services, maintenance services and environmental maintenance. All of these things need to be looked into in relation to this motion.
The Garda spend a lot of their time chasing after vandals and thugs but that does not solve the basic problem and it never will. We should be concerned about crossing all borders especially in relation to sport. That is something which has come to a head on a major scale with the Olympic Games, but it is a fact that in many deprived areas the beginnings of understanding, of a sense of discipline, of a sense of team work and of respect for people, places and things starts in a planned programme on the sporting field. This should be encouraged in the youth encounter projects and in the Department of Education projects. The Minister for Finance recently announced the allocation of certain moneys for leisure centres and sports complexes and this is worthwhile. These facilities are needed in many parts of the country but in any area that is socially deprived, they can mean the beginning of understanding and respect for people and things.
This motion got the priority it deserves in so far as it has been debated in the House. I trust that the Minister will see to it that positive and comprehensive action is taken on foot of this motion so that it will not die as so many other motions have died. If not, it will be seen as an indictment not alone of the Government but of all politicians who have failed in their efforts to have this socially important motion dealt with in the manner it should be dealt with. If the necessary programmes are implemented and followed through, by the year 2000—and it will easily take that long to get the situation under control—we will find ourselves in an entirely different situation. If we do not implement these programmes, I would not forecast the type of society we will have by the turn of the century, if our present situation continues at the alarming rate it has continued over the past number of years.
Have I any time?
There is one minute, whether that is any good to the Minister or not.
I doubt if I could solve the problem in one minute anyhow.
The Minister could not.
I must draw the attention of the House to the lack of commitment by the Government to this motion. The Government have put down an amendment:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
"aware of the problems posed by acts of violence and vandalism in urban areas fully supports the Garda Síochána in the measures they are taking to deal with the situation."
That is not facing up to their responsibilities. This is a shoddy amendment. I did not attack it last night because I hoped that the Minister in his reply would come up with some concrete proposals. The Minister did not come up with any and tended to clap himself on the back for most of the night.
Of course we support the Garda. That is why we put down this motion. I would ask the Minister and the Government to support the Garda. We are concerned about what is going on in the area of crime and vandalism. The Inspector's and Sergeant's Association of the Garda Síochána reported to the Minister as to how to deal with this problem, so it is not good enough for the Minister to come into the House and put down a meaningless amendment like this asking us to support the Garda. That goes without saying. I want a commitment from the Government that they will do the job. We got no clear indication from the Minister that any further steps will be taken to deal with this problem. Despite the best efforts of the Garda crime is on the increase and the Garda are not happy with the situation. If the Minister had said last night that he would examine in detail and broadly accept the report from the Inspector's and Sergeant's Association I would have been satisfied and I would not be here tonight to attack. I am totally dissatisfied with the way the Government have handled this motion. They are showing no will to tackle this serious problem.
I suggested short-term and long-term solutions. In the long term I asked for better educational facilities, better housing, better job creation policies, job experience schemes and so on. The inner city report in the area of crime and violence suggests that education, housing and job opportunities are very important. If we are going to tackle the long-term problem we must tackle it in these areas. The Minister did not mention this and is apparently unconcerned about it. The Minister talked about the additional gardaí in the force today. That is a statistic that looks good on paper but it does not deal with the problem. The Minister responsible for the garda should support them when they are now for the first time looking for help and putting forward proposals which should be listened to as they are the experts in this area and their point of view should be respected and acted upon, but no.
I suggested last night that this was not the time for emotional speeches or for scoring points. I thought this motion would be taken seriously by the Minister and the Government. To my surprise, last night the Minister rounded on this side of the House, and on Deputy Eileen Desmond who had not spoken at the time, in a defensive manner. He had spoken for about 25 minutes and he had not come up with any solutions. He was not prepared to talk in the long-term or in the short-term.
It is sad to think of the high level of vandalism in our cities today. There was a hope that there might be a decrease in that level, but the Commissioner of the Garda feels that is being optimistic. As I said, a number of crimes are not being reported. People feel so frustrated that we are not getting the facts. If we do not take action, our cities will become places which people cannot enjoy. We must take the necessary measures suggested by the Garda and give them the necessary tools to do the job as soon as possible. We must ensure that our elderly people, our infirm people, our young people and people in general can walk the streets in safetyso that we can be proud of our cities and welcome our visitors. When we reach the point where people cannot walk the streets in safety, it is time for us to take our responsibilities very seriously, instead of the Government putting down meaningless amendments to try to score political points.
This type of motion does not deserve to be treated with cheap petty contempt, as I would call it, by the Government Having listened to the Minister for half an hour last night, I do not see any hope in this area. I heard that there are task forces in particular Garda stations in the city and they are doing a good job. They may have to be withdrawn because of lack of finance. Even while they are there we can see the problems but, if they are withdrawn, the problems will increase.
They should be augumented and increased and every facility should be given to them. It is my information that this is not the case, and that we cannot look forward to an increase in their activities. I have no doubt this is why the Sergeant's and Inspector's Association are so concerned. They are in the middle of it. They have to risk their lives. It is time the Minister took his responsibilities seriously and supported the Garda Síochána as suggested in his amendment. If the Minister lived up to his own amendment and gave the Garda what they require to do the job I could see some hope. I do not see any hope at the moment. That is a sad thing to say.
I represent an inner city constituency and I see the problems from day to day. I see the fortresses people have to build around their homes to try to protect themselves. That is a fact of life and we are all aware of it. I put down this motion in the hope of hearing the Minister coming up with new ideas and giving a firm indication that he would tackle these problems once and for all and deal with them effectively. That is not being done. All he is doing is paying lip service to an amendment which he is not prepared to accept himself.
I am angry at the dishonest way in which this motion has been treated by the Minister. The people will judge the Minister and the Government for the contempt they have shown. They cannot take any more and the Minister and his Department know that. The cry for help is there. Why not give it? If this goes on much longer the thugs, the vandals and the marauding mobs will have taken over our cities because the Government have not the moral courage to take them on and put them down.
To come back to the long-term solution, I want to see a commitment by the Government to this report by the interdepartmental committee which was set up by the Government but which is now being cast aside like an old boot. The messages are loud and clear in this report: better housing, better education, better job opportunities, a better environment and development of communities. These are the solutions in the long-term.
The Deputy should conclude now.
Neither the long-term nor the short-term solution has been dealt with by the Minister. We have had subterfuges and niceties trying to throw the onus back on the House by asking Deputies to support the Garda. Deputies on this side of the House have always supported the Garda. We do not want lectures or motions or amendments about supporting the Garda. Our record is there I want the Minister to support the Garda. I want him to support the inspectors and sergeants.
The Deputy's time is up.
Not yet.
The Chair is looking after the House, not Deputy L'Estrange.
You must rule fairly and honestly. He has half a minute or a quarter of a minute to go.
The Deputy's time is up.
Unless action is taken quickly there will be dramatic consequences.
It is up now.
Deputy L'Estrange does not control the time of this House. That is what the Chair is here for.
He will see that a Fine Gael Deputy gets the time to which he is entitled.
Deputy L'Estrange is starting as usual. He never stops.
I just want to see fair play.
Is the amendment agreed?
Reluctantly we agree to the amendment because of the way it is put down.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 1 May 1980.