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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 16 May 1980

Vol. 320 No. 12

Estimates, 1980 - Vote 28: Environment

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £275,506,000 be granted to defray the charge which will in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1980 for the salaries and expenses of the office of the Minister for the Environment, including grants to Local Authorities, grants and other expenses in connection with housing, and miscellaneous schemes and grants including a grant-in-aid.

I welcome the opportunity afforded by the opening of the debate on the annual estimates of my Department to review comprehensively the areas of responsibility entrusted to me. In doing so I shall outline how the policy of the Government bears on the activities of the Department. We shall see what the achievements have been in terms of economic and social well-being of the community. I shall cover in some detail the Government's policies and programmes in such areas as housing, water supply and sewerage, roads and the other traditional activities of the Department. I shall also speak of what is entailed in my special responsibilities as Minister for the Environment.

The net total of the Environment vote for 1980 is £275.506 million. That amount is an increase of £20 million on the amount voted in 1979. Compared with 1977 the increase is a staggering £189 million. The Environment vote in 1980 is not far short of 10 per cent of the total of the Estimates for the Public Services. Only the Social Welfare and Health Votes are larger. Deputies might find a few more long-term comparisons interesting. Just ten years ago, in 1970-71, the Department's vote was less than £12 million. In that year it absorbed less than 3 per cent of the total for voted services.

Large as it is, the provision in the Environment Vote is part only of what will be spent this year on the services of my Department and the local authorities operating under the Department. Money for the services also comes from some other Votes, from the Local Loans Fund and from local authorities' own resources, such as rates and miscellaneous items of income. When all these are reckoned the Department and the local authorities will, it is estimated, spend some £754 million in 1980. This figure compares with about £650 million in 1979, £566 million in 1978 and £446 million in 1977. The local authorities will have about £714 million to spend this year. They will themselves raise about £234 million of this amount. It follows, then, that central Government will be providing about £480 million to local authorities in the form of grants and capital issues from the Local Loans Fund. The corresponding figures in past years were about £422 million in 1979, £360 million in 1978 and £248 million in 1977.

The biggest single item in the Vote is the £106.565 million provided in subhead P for the grant to local authorities in relief of rates. This provision arises directly from the Government's undertaking to abolish, from 1 January 1978, rates on all domestic property, the domestic portion of mixed property, secondary schools, community halls and farm buildings not previously exempted from rates. These reliefs have been given a permanent statutory basis under the Local Government (Financial Provisions) Act, 1978.

We should not underestimate either the importance or the scope of the rates reliefs. They extend to all dwelling accommodation in the country, secondary schools, community halls and farm buildings previously liable for rates. In 1979 relief was allowed in respect of a total of 974,000 separate ratings. I should, perhaps, mention that the decision on entitlement to relief from rates under the 1978 Act rests with the local authority concerned. However, the Act provides for an extensive system of appeals to give redress to any property owner who believes that he should benefit more fully from the reliefs.

The assumption by the State of liability for domestic rates, in addition to that which it already bears through the agricultural grant for rates on certain land, has greatly increased the level of Exchequer participation in the rating system. In 1976 the Exchequer, through the agricultural grant, contributed just £1 out of every £4 raised through the rating system. This year the Exchequer contribution by way of rates and rates-linked grants will be about £3 out of every £5 at an estimated cost of some £144 million. A liability of this size cannot simply be open-ended. In order, then, to ensure a fair alignment of local government needs with those of other sectors, I have this year set a limit of 10 per cent as the maximum amount by which 1980 rate poundages should exceed those for 1979.

This maximum increase achieves a number of purposes. It limits the increase in the rates burden falling on farmers, shopkeepers and other ratepayers in 1980. At the same time, it allows local authorities a reasonable margin within which to operate their developing services in line with a growing economy. I should stress, though, that there is no question of local authority expenditure being held back to 10 per cent more than in 1979. In the past two years similar limits also applied to rate increases. The limits were 11 per cent in 1978 and 10 per cent in 1979. However, in each of these years, because of valuation buoyancy and other factors local authorities were able to budget for increases in their gross current expenditure of 17 per cent and 17½ per cent over the preceding year.

These increases have enabled significant improvements to be made in local authority services. I am confident that in 1980 local authorities by prudent management of their resources, will be able to maintain their services at reasonable levels as in previous years. In many developing areas there will be scope for worthwhile improvements. In fact, because of new and increased valuations the permitted increase in rate poundages will give, in aggregate, an estimated 13 per cent increase to local authorities in their income from rates and from rates linked State grants. About £250 million, that is, some £29 million more than in 1979 will be available to local authorities from these sources alone in 1980.

I would emphasise that these changes in the system of local government finance have been brought about with the minimum of interference to the powers of local authorities. Subject only to the upper limit on the increase in rate poundages, local authorities have full discretion in ordering priorities in their estimates.

Environmental questions are occupying the public attention more and more. If we are to judge by the experience of other countries, this is a trend which will continue. The higher living standards become, the more people will be concerned with quality in their surroundings. In Ireland great change is in progress as we move to meet the needs in accommodation, jobs and community facilities of a young and increasing population, as urban areas expand and as industrial and agricultural development intensifies. Environmental quality will depend on how the physical surroundings are shaped and conditioned by these changes.

Local authorities carry out directly much of the most environmentally significant development; the housing programmes, the road development, the water supply and sewage disposal systems, parks and amenity schemes. In their service activities too—the operation of the planning and pollution control systems—the local authorities have a critical environmental role. They are at the heart of both making the physical environment and in its protection. Viewed in this way the horizons in local government are extending. They are not, as some would have it, contracting. The system will in the future assume even greater relevance and importance in the life of the community.

There are, of course, other influences shaping the environment. These include the programmes of the large number of State and semi-State organisations as well as the private sector. The diversity of these programmes is such that environmental policy must reflect a rational balance between the protection and conservation needs of the environment and the basic aims of Government policy in regard to economic development. Obviously such a policy affects the interest of various Ministers. It will need to be worked out in consultation with them, and considered and decided on by the Government. It is part of my extended function as Minister for the Environment to advance this process.

Already the Environment Council, which I set up to advise me on environmental matters has prepared a report entitled Towards an Environment Policy. The report has been published to encourage public debate. It is the first public paper of the kind in which the question of environment policy and the issues involved are discussed. While many bodies have responded by submitting views and ideas I must say I would have hoped for greater interest in the document, not least from the news media. Environmental controversy, it seems, is more newsworthy than the distinctly positive work of the council. The report refers to the importance of controls to ensure that material gains in living standards are not offset by disimprovements in the quality of life. This is an important issue. In general our environmental resources are in good condition. It must be ensured that they remain so while we continue to develop economically and socially.

It is more important than ever to ensure that the needs of the environment are fully considered and given adequate weight when decisions are taken which can affect it in significant ways. It is preeminently the role of the physical planning system to see that the right balance is struck. The system must be alert to the rights of the individual as well as to the interests of the environment. It must be alert also to the use of environmental arguments to cloak self-interest in opposing environmentally sound and beneficial developments. This, when it happens, does disservice not only to economic development and employment growth but, to the genuine interests of environmental protection and conservation as well.

The kind of policy which I have been talking about can only be developed gradually. The council's report is a good start. I now have asked the council as the next step, to prepare proposals for an initial policy statement of limited scope. This course seems preferable to waiting until something more comprehensive can be attempted. I expect to have the council's recommendations on this later in the year. I will then consider what further action on my part would be appropriate.

I have asked the Environment Council too, to advise on the questions of reporting on the state of the environment. I have asked for ideas on the means and procedures to be adopted so that progressively an accurate picture of the state of the environment can be presented to the public and updated from time to time. It is important that we should have a factual account of our environmental resources, conditions and problems. In this way we may become aware of any undersirable trends and be in a position to take corrective action.

Implementation of the European Community Action Programme on the Environment continues. It is, I suppose, understandable that the action programme is less newsworthy than certain other Community activities. But the servicing of that work imposes a considerable demand on my Department. It is a cause of some satisfaction that the period of the Irish Presidency in the Community was marked by important international developments relating to air pollution control.

At the EEC Council meeting of Ministers for the Environment last December it was agreed to adopt a directive, which had been under consideration for a long time, on health protection standards for sulphur dioxide and suspended particulate matter. These are among the most widespread of air pollutants, especially in urban areas. On that occasion a decision was adopted whereby member states undertook to prevent any increase in the capacity for producing certain chemicals which are suspected of causing damage to the earth's ozone layer and to reduce their use in aerosol cans. A directive on the protection of ground water against discharge of certain dangerous substances was also finally adopted.

Litter and the associated conditions of graffiti, flyposting and the abuse of public amenities, constitutes one of the most widespread and least excusable of our environmental problems. It is mainly an urban problem although it extends also into country areas including seaside and scenic locations. Visitors, including those from other member states of the European Community where standards in such matters are higher, are often taken aback by what they see here. The impressions can only be detrimental to our tourist trade. Furthermore, there is reason to believe that industry can be discouraged from establishing in locations where visual impressions suggest apathy and indifference. This is one environmental problem that could be solved without large investment or the development of new technologies. The remedy lies in our own hands. I asked the Environment Council some time ago to consider the litter problem and what might be done to improve the position. I have received a report from the council together with some recommendations. This report is at present being considered in my Department.

I have recently made regulations under the European Communities Act, 1972 to give effect to the EEC Directive on Waste which is designed to ensure that human health and the environment are protected against harmful effects caused by the collection, transport, treatment, storage and tipping of waste. Up to now the local authorities functions in the matter of waste disposal have related mainly to the disposal of domestic refuse. Under the regulations county councils and county borough corporations are now responsible for the planning, organisation and supervision of all types of waste—household, commercial and industrial. The authorities are also responsible for issuing permits to persons who dispose of waste on behalf of others. The authorities are also now required to prepare waste disposal plans. The availability of such plans will facilitate better overall management of waste disposal operations and should be of use to prospective industrialists wishing to locate in particular areas.

I made reference in the course of my reply to recent Dáil questions on water pollution to my dissatisfaction at the limited extent to which wide ranging powers under the Local Government (Water Pollution) Act, 1977 have been availed of by local authorities. I indicated that a more positive approach to the implementation of the Act was expected, something I proposed to pursue with local authorities. This has been done. A circular letter issued on 24 April which, while acknowledging that certain delays in the implementation of the Act may have been unavoidable, impressed on local authorities the urgent need for a determined effort to get a system of water pollution control under the Act operating properly without further delay.

Pollution of beaches and coastlines by oil spillages from tankers is another area of concern. Our east and south coasts are the most vulnerable. Our existing contingency arrangements for the clearance of oil pollution from beaches and immediately off-shore are constantly kept under review. The experience gained from the t02Christos Bitas t01incident in the Irish Sea in October 1978 and the t02Betelgeuse t01disaster in Bantry Bay in January 1979 is being used for the improvement of our arrangements to deal with a major oil spillage.

The Water Pollution Advisory Council gave me much valuable advice during the year on a broad range of water quality issues. A particularly noteworthy feature of their activities is the continuing development of an educational programme aimed at creating a greater public awareness of water pollution problems. They have recently produced a variety of striking posters highlighting the various beneficial uses of water and these have been widely distributed to the industrial and agricultural sectors as well as to schools, sporting groups and associations.

Output and employment in the building industry increased to a remarkable extent in the years 1978 and 1979. In 1978, output increased by 14 per cent in real terms and in 1979 by an estimated 12 per cent to 14 per cent. Since July 1977 some 10,000 additional jobs have been provided directly in the industry. A further 3,000 jobs have been created indirectly in ancillary industries such as manufacturers and suppliers of materials, furnishings and so on. This rapid and unprecedented growth was assisted by substantial increases in public investment affecting the industry. In 1980, despite the overriding need to reduce the extent of public borrowing, the Government have again provided a generous injection of capital for the industry.

This year £722 million is being made available in the Public Capital Programme for investment in housing, roads, water supply and sewerage, industrial development and other areas which directly affect the building industry. This represents an increase of 18 per cent on the 1979 expenditure of approximately £612 million. Whether or not the industry will continue to expand in 1980 will be determined to a significant extent by the level of wage and price increases. I see 1980 as a year of consolidation for the industry—a year in which the bottlenecks which occurred in certain sectors in recent years are eased and the employment gains safeguarded as far as practicable. The industry will then have a sound base for continued growth in the eighties.

The most important sector of the building industry is housing. The housing capital allocation for this year is £183 million. The size of this allocation reflects the Government's commitment to maintaining a substantial programme of housing completions. In fact, the Public Capital Programme allocation for housing in 1980 is the second highest allocation to any sector of the programme. Last year 26,544 houses were completed. It is satisfying to note that this figure represented an increase of 1,100 compared with 1978. The basic objective of Government housing policy is to ensure that, as far as the resources of the economy permit, every household can obtain a house of good standard, located in an acceptable environment, at a price or rent they can afford. A subsidiary aim is the encouragement of owner-occupation. In the latter context, it is noteworthy that the number of private house completions in 1979, at 20,330 was an all-time record. The total number of houses completed in 1980 may be somewhat lower than last year. However, completions should still exceed 25,000.

There has been steady progress in recent years in meeting housing needs. The level of annual housing completions has been high in keeping with the Government's targets fixed from time to time. I am anxious to ensure that the generous amounts of money made available by the Government for housing are channelled in the right direction. It is, therefore, imperative that up-to-date and accurate data be available to enable me to advise the Government objectively on the effectiveness of current policies to meet the needs of the eighties and to prepare estimates of capital requirements for housing on the basis of need. I have recently asked housing authorities to carry out a fresh assessment of housing needs in their areas to cover the period up to 31 March 1985. I have asked that the assessments be completed by the end of next September. I will then analyse the assessments with a view to updating housing policy to meet the needs of the eighties.

Subhead E.2. provides a sum of £23 million for the payment of private housing grants. From this amount £8.5 million is earmarked for new house grants. The remaining £14.5 million covers the various categories of house improvement grants. Expenditure on housing grants last year reached the all time record of £24.6 million. This figure compares with £14.5 million in 1978, and only £4.3 million in 1977. Deputies will, therefore, see that, while this year's provision is slightly down on last year's expenditure, it is still very large compared to that in earlier years.

Last year 8,078 grants of £1,000 were paid to first time owner-occupiers of new houses. As well, over 3,700 houses grants outstanding under the pre-July 1977 scheme were finally paid. This year, I expect that there may be a slight increase in the number of £1,000 grants falling due for payment. The number of "old" grants should be quite small.

With the exception of a few areas—where we are endeavouring to effect improvements—I am satisfied that the position regarding inspection delays on new houses is now relatively satisfactory.

The subject of house improvement grants has been discussed at length in the House, both at Question Time and in Private Members' time, since the Government decision to terminate the ordinary improvement grants scheme and the scheme of special grants to reduce dependence on oil. Suffice it for me to say at this stage that the Government are satisfied that, in the prevailing circumstances, we made the right decisions in relation to the deployment of the financial resources available to the housing sector. The termination was effected in a totally fair manner. Anyone who had made binding commitments to have work carried out was given ample time to make application The substantial increases, introduced concurrently with the ending of grants, in the loan and income limits applying to the local authority loans scheme should alleviate any hardship that would otherwise have been caused to people on moderate incomes, whose houses need repair or extension.

Before departing from this subject, I should say a word of appreciation for the understanding attitude adopted by the public towards the problems created for the housing grants section of my Department by the fact that the equivalent of almost a full year's normal applications was submitted during the latter part of January. Obviously it will take time to inspect the houses and pay grants in all these cases. We are doing our best to give as efficient a service as possible. Again, I have to ask applicants to be patient in the knowledge that they will receive their entitlements.

Last year £293 million was paid out by the four main lending agencies in house purchase loans. This amount represented an increase of £70 million in 1978. Building societies maintained their position as the largest contributor. Payments in 1979 from the societies exceeded £200 million. Local authorities contributed £50 million by way of ordinary loans and loans under the low-rise mortgage scheme. The balance was advanced by banks and assurance companies.

The building societies' investment and mortgage interest rates remained at 9 per cent and 14.15 per cent respectively during the year. As Deputies will know, the level at which societies pitch their investment rate is of the utmost importance in attracting new funds which will enable them to meet the demand for mortgage finance and assist in financing the Government's housing programme. In setting their investment rate societies are conscious of other competitive rates, mainly those of the associated banks. Traditionally, societies have always maintained a differential of as much as 1½ per cent to 2 per cent over the minimum bank investment rate. However, the societies' rate of 9 per cent, which operated throughout 1979, was 1 per cent below the minimum bank investment rate of 10 per cent which came into effect in June 1979. Because of the direct relationship between the investment rate and the mortgage rate, I know that in taking the decision not to increase their investment rate when the bank interest rate went up in June 1979, societies were conscious of the hardship which would be created for existing borrowers. However, the size of their inflows in the first half of 1979 consequent on the repatriation of external funds due to Ireland's entry to EMS also had a bearing on this decision and helped them to maintain record levels of payment in 1979 and into the first quarter of this year.

With the restrictive monetary policy being adopted by the US and Britain, worldwide increases in interest rates were anticipated in the early part of this year and already the associated banks have raised their minimum investment rate to 11.5 per cent. Consequent on these increases and having regard to the fall-off in inflow funds during February and March of this year, the building societies informed me of their proposal to increase their investment rate generally from 9.0 per cent to 10.75 per cent which would have the effect of increasing the mortgage rate to 16.5 per cent. Following several meetings, including a meeting with the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance, and myself, a working group was established to examine a number of considerations put forward with a view to either reducing the proposed mortgage rate or holding it at the level of 14.15 per cent and to make recommendations in this matter. The group were unanimous in their conclusion that an immediate increase in building society investment rates to 10.75 per cent generally was warranted with a consequent increase in the mortgage rate to 16.5 per cent. Following consideration of the report and conscious of the hardship which would be created for many borrowers, particularly first-time house purchasers, the Government decided to make available, on a temporary basis, a direct payment by way of subsidy to the societies for the purpose of enabling them to offer such rate of interest on shares and deposits as I may specify from time to time, thereby obviating the need to increase the mortgage rate from its existing level of 14.15 per cent. Having regard to the current level of interest rates generally I have specified an investment rate of 10.75 per cent for this purpose.

The payment is a temporary measure and the need for it will be kept under constant review in the light of changes in interest rates generally and the inflow of funds into the societies, and, in any event, will be reviewed within six months. The payment will be made to societies which provide audited certificates showing that their rate of interest on house purchase loans did not exceed the rate applying to home loans generally on 28 April 1980.

The subsidy will be paid six-monthly in arrears. While the investment rate was increased with effect from 1 May the subsidy will not apply until 1 June. As a result the cost to the Exchequer will be about £1.5 million in 1980—the cost for June alone because of the arrangement to pay the subsidy six-monthly in arrears. I will deal with this cost by way of a Supplementary Estimate later in the year. Before leaving building societies I should like to put on record the Government's appreciation of their co-operation both in their handling of the large inflows of EMS money which they received, by not releasing it too quickly onto the market and in their acceding to the Government's request that they should require a certificate of reasonable value or a certificate of exemption before making new house loans. These measures contributed to the stabilisation of house prices over the past few months.

The subsidy paid by the Exchequer in respect of guaranteed loans given by certain building societies to about 1,000 applicants in the Dublin area between 1969 and 1972 amounted to over £97,000 in 1979. The subsidy is estimated to cost £140,000 in 1980 and provision is made for it in subhead N.

The Government attach great importance to the local authority house purchase loans scheme. This is evidenced by the fact that since resuming office in July 1977, the maximum loan payable has been increased from £4,500 to £12,000, an increase of 166 per cent. The qualifying income limit has been increased from £2,350 to £5,500 per annum, an increase of 134 per cent. The recent increases in the loan and income limits will ensure that the scheme will continue to cater for the categories for whom it was intended. To meet the demand generated by increases in the loan and income limits a record sum of £58 million has been provided in this year's Public Capital Programme. This compares with expenditure of £45 million in 1979 and £27 million in 1978. By any standards this is an impressive increase in the funding of the scheme.

The low rise mortgage scheme enables persons who could not normally afford to rehouse themselves to become owner-occupiers. The scheme continues to operate satisfactorily. The maximum loan which may be advanced under the scheme has also been increased to £12,000 with effect from 1 February 1980. The total maximum subsidy towards loan repayments has been increased from £9 a week to £12 a week during the first year of the loan, diminishing gradually over a period of nine years. The scheme has particular attractions and I have recently asked all authorities to bring the scheme again to the notice of eligible persons in their areas.

The loan and income limits which govern the making of house improvement loans have also been increased with effect from 1 February 1980. The maximum secured loan has been increased from £2,500 to £4,000 and the unsecured loan from £600 to £1,000. The annual income limit for both loans is now £5,500.

Last year was a significant one as far as house prices were concerned. Early in the year prices were going up rapidly. The Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1979 contained provisions designed to strengthen and expand the scope of the controls on new house prices through the system of the CRV. With a few exceptions, these provisions were generally welcomed. In August, the Government asked the principal lending agencies to require a CRV before advancing loans for the purchase of new houses. The agencies have for some time been operating this requirement. The Government are appreciative of their co-operation in this regard. The requirement has brought many more houses within the scope of the CRV system. It has removed the incentive to builders to avoid the controls by building up-market houses, to the detriment of the first time owner-occupier who is usually seeking a more modest-type house. These measures were, in part, responsible for the stabilisation of house prices in the latter half of last year. Statistics published by my Department show that the average gross prices of new houses for which loans were approved by the main lending agencies in fact decreased in each of the last two quarters of 1979.

The local authority housing construction programme had a good year in 1979. This was so, in spite of trends of under-expenditure and low completions which lasted well into the year. There was a belated spate of completions by local authorities in December. It brought completions in 1979 to 6,214, compared with 6,073 in 1978 and 6,333 in 1977. As a result of the large number of houses completed in December, work in progress at the end of that month fell temporarily below 8,000. However, the level had risen to 8,312 by the end of January, 1980. Subject to what I have to say later about the continued rise in costs, it is hoped to complete some 6,000 houses again this year and to maintain the comparative stability that has characterised the programme in the last three years. The average number of dwellings under construction throughout 1979 was 8,564. This was very close to the figures of 8,636 for 1978, and 8,702 for 1977. The equivalent figure for 1976 was 8,195. The average total number of men employed on the programme increased in 1979 to 6,650 from 6,504 in 1978, 6,295 in 1977 and only 5,635 in 1976.

Thus, from the completions and employment aspects, the programme has been well maintained. Our main anxiety has been the continued high rate of increases in building costs. Because of the operation of market factors, it has been hard to get precisely comparative details of costs incorporated in tender prices. However, it is estimated from analyses of tender prices for similar types of houses within particular areas, that increases ranging from 16 per cent to 21 per cent, depending on locality, have occurred in the last 12 months. We have now moved into an era of a £20,000 cost for the average three-bedroom local authority house in a high cost area. No substantial amelioration of these high costs can be expected in the near future. I am hopeful, however, that recent cooling-off of the overheating evident in some areas may bring about greater competition for contracts.

These rises in costs make control of expenditure on the programme of almost £100 million complex and difficult. Stringent new control procedures must be introduced this year to discourage overspending by individual authorities to the detriment of other authorities who carefully control their programmes within authorised limits. Management of the programme will be greatly assisted in future years by the general introduction from 1 July 1980 of new standard cost control procedures worked out by An Foras Forbartha in conjunction with the National Building Elements Committee and my Department.

Although the trend of underexpenditure had been apparent for most of 1979, many authorities ended the year with substantial unauthorised increases in the debt balances on their accounts. These increases and escalating building costs have forced existing building commitments in 1980 up substantially. The total of capital allocations so far made to local authorities for existing commitments was so high that a comparatively small residue only remains to finance the release of new work this year. Some delay in the making of additional allocations for new work is, therefore, inevitable. Before committing more money to the programme, I will have to wait for a few months and establish the pattern of expenditure in the interim. I should emphasise that Dublin Corporation and Dublin County Council have already got a special overall allocation, as in recent years, which includes a provision for new work and they should not be affected by any such delays.

Our overall targets for new starts this year should not be affected significantly by these arrangements. It should be possible to have increased starts later in the year to compensate for any temporary hold-up now. I know that Dublin authorities are not satisfied this year with the amounts of their allocations, particularly having regard to the unrealistic scale of their demands. I would, naturally, be only too pleased to assign them more money. We must, however, accept the facts about the current economic situation which demands certain limitations in public spending. The Dublin authorities have already got a greater share of available resources than the amount they would get if money were distributed entirely on the basis of the numbers of approved applicants for rehousing.

In this day and age we cannot tolerate families with high incomes occupying heavily subsidised local authority houses, while families in bad housing conditions must wait for rehousing. The provision in subhead E.1 for housing in 1980 is £62.5 million, an increase of £10 million on the expenditure in 1979. The major part of the subsidy goes towards recouping to local authorities the loan charges payable by them in respect of the provision of houses for renting.

With the approval of the Government and following meetings with officials representing local authorities and with the National Executive of the National Association of Tenants' Organisations, I introduced changes in the national rent scheme for local authority houses. Details were circulated to all local authorities on 26 March 1980. The new scheme is designed to ensure that tenants who can afford to do so will pay their fair share of rent and that no tenant should be required to pay a rent that he cannot reasonably afford.

On 22 February 1980 I introduced a revised tenant purchase scheme for the sale of local authority dwellings which will operate until 31 January 1981. The sale prices are generously subsidised from public funds and generally compare very favourably with the price of houses of a similar standard in the private sector.

I have asked city and county managers to prepare new plans for the accommodation of itinerant families in each area. The aim is to get plans which will match the needs in each area as established in the last annual census. As I see it, the total accommodation problem should be capable of solution within a relatively short period in many areas. I mean a solution involving the right combination of standard housing, chalets, long-term residential sites and short-term halting places.

In some areas, however, including a number of the larger urban centres, progress is less than satisfactory and serious problems remain. These situations will have to receive the priority attention of the local authorities concerned in the context of the plans to which I have referred. I know the difficulties, including the deplorably selfish opposition that is sometimes mounted against settlement schemes. These problems must be overcome, as they have been in many cases. This can be done through commitment on the part of the local authority, attention to the genuine concerns of settled communities, and careful design and supervision of schemes.

My Department will continue to provide every possible support and encouragement including financial support and the valuable advice and guidance of Mr. Victor Bewley, my special adviser on the programme.

I am glad to be able to report that significant progress continues to be made in the provision of water and sewerage services. Since the Government returned to office in 1977 the capital allocation for water supply and sewerage schemes has been increased from £24.91 million in 1977 to £40 million in 1980. In that period I have been able to approve a total of 132 major public water and sewerage schemes for commencement estimated to cost £85 million. During 1979 I raised the cost limit for small schemes from £20,000 to £30,000.

The impact of the increased flow of finance to sanitary services is naturally being felt at local level. Major schemes in progress include the greater Dublin drainage scheme at a total estimated cost of £36.5 million and the Liffey aqueduct water supply scheme at a total estimated cost of £9.8 million. These two schemes should cater for the water and sewerage requirements of Dublin into the nineties. They can be expanded to cater for longer term requirements. The Government have ensured that catering for the needs of Dublin, has not meant that the needs of other areas have been overlooked.

Major schemes in progress in other areas include the Cork city and harbour water supply scheme at an estimated total cost of £42 million, the Shannon south shore water supply scheme at an estimated cost of £6.6 million and the Castlebar water supply scheme at an estimated cost of £8 million. To finance the greatly increased level of investment, the Government have availed of every opportunity to secure financial assistance for water and sewerage schemes from EEC sources. In the last two-and-a-half years or so the EEC have approved grants totalling £11.4 million from the European Regional Development Fund for public water and sewerage schemes. Grants approved from the European Agricultural Guidance and Guarantee Fund for public and private rural water schemes have totalled £2.6 million and loans amounting to £128.5 million from the European Investment Bank for public water and sewerage schemes have been approved. Many of these loans will qualify for interest subsidies arising out of Ireland's membership of the European Monetary System.

The greatly increased level of investment in water supply and sewerage schemes gives rise to a substantial increase in the loan charges subsidy towards such schemes. In 1980, this subsidy will amount to almost £12.5 million compared with less than £10 million expended in 1979. A small part of this amount is attributable to swimming pools and sanitary conveniences.

Group water supply schemes continue to play a vital role in the drive to pipe water to rural dwellings and associated farms. There has been a tremendous upsurge in the number of these schemes undertaken by local communities with generous grant assistance from the Government. The number of houses in which water was installed by way of group schemes increased from 6,187 in 1976 to 10,940 in 1979 or by 77 per cent. The future prospects for group schemes are bright. At the end of last year, work was in progress on the installation of piped water in an additional 8,200 houses. Nearly 200 further schemes had been designed to serve almost 7,000 approximately.

Deputies are aware of the Government's commitment to the development of the public road network. The road development plan for the eighties was published last year. The plan outlined the priorities for state investment in this area in the decade ahead. A total of almost £48 million has been provided for expenditure on grant-aided road schemes in 1980. On foot of this provision I have been enabled to allocate grants to road authorities totalling over £53 million. This amount represents a significant commitment on behalf of the Government to tackle the deficiencies in the road system. It will enable road authorities to continue with their improvement and maintenance programmes in accordance with the objectives of the plan.

I am particularly concerned about the deterioration which has taken place in the standard of maintenance of some of the principal roads. Measured in terms of time and energy waste, wear and tear of vehicles and road accidents, the cost to the community of inadequate road surfaces is considerable. In conjunction with the notification to road authorities of the 1980 grants I have asked that each city and county manager pay particular attention, within the resources available, to the urgency of undertaking remedial measures through early identification and treatment of deficiencies. In this regard I have made grants for the specific purpose of the maintenance of the national routes totalling £9.336 million in 1980. That amount is almost 40 per cent more than the amount allocated at this time in 1979.

Returns by local authorities in 1979 showed that worthwhile progress was made with the local improvements scheme. I am glad to be able to allocate a further £2 million to the scheme this year.

A substantially increased amount of £260,000 is provided this year to meet the expenses of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety. Drunken driving continues to be a very serious problem. Of almost 9,000 specimens processed by the bureau last year, over 40 per cent had alcohol levels of more than double the legal limit. My Department are at present considering proposals for amendment of the law in the light of certain court decisions.

The amount of £363,000 made available this year to the National Road Safety Association is also significantly higher than last year. This should enable the association to continue and expand their work in developing a wider road safety consciousness in the public.

A sum of £2.525 million is provided under subhead M for the recoupment of licensing authorities of the expenses incurred by them in the registration and licensing of mechanically propolled vehicles and the issue of driving licences. The subhead also includes provision for expenses incurred in connection with the computerisation of vehicle registration. Progress on computerisation has been very satisfactory. Early this year the stage was reached at which details of all vehicles currently registered in the State were on computer. These records are directly available to the Garda in the detection of stolen vehicles, road traffic investigations and in the areas of crime and security.

In connection with the re-location of the vehicle registration unit of the Department in Shannon, the Office of Public Works have prepared plans for the office accommodation to be provided and expect that the accommodation will be ready for occupation during 1981.

The loss of life and the destruction of property resulting from fire must be a cause of deep concern to everybody. I have no doubt that these losses would be many many times greater but for the excellent work being done by fire brigade personnel. These people sometimes put their own lives at risk in order to preserve the lives and property of others. The country owes them a debt of gratitude.

Fire services are provided and maintained by local authorities. They have the primary responsibility to see that a reasonable service is provided. I am, however, concerned to ensure that the standard of the service keeps pace with the growing demands on it. I have initiated various measures to promote uniformity, standardisation and efficiency of the service and generally to support the development of the service by local authorities.

Among the more important measures being taken at present are the local reviews of the strenght and adequacy of the service. These reviews are at present being carried out by local authorities with guidance and support from my Department. Another high priority is the provision of guidance for local authorities on fire service standards. With the help of officers from various brigades, for which I would like to express my appreciation and thanks, a start has been made on the preparation of guidelines on a number of important aspects of the service.

Fire service training is of fundamental importance to the efficiency of the service. A greatly expanded programme of central training courses has been undertaken by my Department to supplement local training programmes. I should mention that there is now an excellent training centre available at Castlebridge, County Wexford. The centre was provided by Wexford County Council with financial assistance from my Department.

There must, of course, be an adequate level of investment in the fire service if reasonable provision is to be made for the protection of lives, property and employment in the event of fire. I am happy to say that the capital provision for the fire service has been increased significantly in the past few years. This year's provision will enable local authorities to press ahead with their programmes for the building of urgently needed fire stations and the acquisition of modern fire-fighting equipment. As a measure of the progress being achieved I should mention that 12 new fire stations or extensions were completed during the past two years, nine are at present under construction and a further 12 are expected to commence this year. In addition, proposals for financing the purchase of 34 new fire appliances were approved by my Department in the past two years.

An increase in fire prevention activity is a matter of the utmost importance. As an indication of my concern in this mattere in 1978 I established the Fire Prevention Council. One of that body's main functions is the promotion of greater awareness of fire hazards of all kinds. During 1979, the council initiated a publicity programme and conducted seminars for senior management of major industries in Dublin and Cork. I am glad to say that a greatly expanded programme of activities is being undertaken by the council this year. Provision has been included in subhead Q for payment of a grant of £50,000 in 1980 to the council. A similar amount will be contributed to the council by the Federation of Insurers in Ireland.

An adequate legislative framework is essential to the proper functioning of the fire service. The existing legislation which dates largely from 1940 is in need of review. Work is now under way on preparation of proposals for up-dating the legislation. I intend to press ahead as quickly as possble with this task.

The grant-in-aid to An Foras Forbartha this year amounts to £1,946 million. An Foras carry out research work in the areas of planning, construction, roads, water resources and environmental matters. The results of this work are normally published. The reports are made available to local authorities, Government Departments and other interested parties.

The administration and general expenses of An Bord Pleanála are met from the grant of £272,000 provided in subhead Q. The board had, up to last year's postal dispute, made commendable headway with reducing the number of appeals on hands. From a figure of 2,177 at the time appeal functions were taken over by the board in March 1977, the number of appeals on hands was reduced to 1,513 at the end of 1978. The postal dispute upset this progressively downward trend. At the end of 1979 there were 2,011 appeals on hands awaiting decisions. The board are now tackling the backlog. I am satisfied that by the end of this year the number of undecided appeals will be reduced substantially.

The problems of dereliction and social deprivation in the Dublin inner city area are of considerable concern to the Government and particularly to me as Minister for the Environment. Arising from the report of the Inter-departmental Committee on Dublin Inner City the Government decided in May 1979 to set up the inner city group. The task of the group was to develop a programme of action by the various public departments and agencies operating in the inner city area and to further the work of the inter-departmental committee. An allocation of £1 million was made to fund or assist projects approved by the group. In February of this year the Government decided that responsibility for Dublin inner city development should be transferred to my Department. In the light of this decision it was necessary to reconstitute the group. It now includes an assistant city manager to ensure closer liaison with Dublin Corporation, the main agency involved in the inner city area.

It is my intention that the special funds allocated to the group should be used to assist projects which would be seen as contributing to the rehabilitation of the area. Assistance has already been allocated to some projects. The new group will give priority to the examination of proposals in the employment and youth training fields.

I would like to explain that I do not envisage that my Department will have field officers working the area covered by the programme. The group will not have executive functions in connection with the implementation of the programme. Such functions will be discharged by the appropriate Departments and other agencies including the corporation.

The environmental improvement schemes programme which was introduced by the Government in August 1977, has resulted in the carrying out of many worthwhile schemes of environmental, recreational and amenity value to the community. It has also provided satisfying employment especially for young people. A sum of £3.85 million has been allocated to local authorities for 1980. This brings the total amount provided since inception of the programme to more than £12 million. This year £1.5 million is provided in subhead G of the Environment Vote. A further £2.3 million is being made available from the employment guarantee fund set up under the terms of the national understanding, £600,000, of which has been specially assigned for Dublin city by the committee administering the fund. An additional £50,000 has also been allocated to Dublin Corporation from the inner city fund with special reference to employment in the inner city area.

It appears that the Minister's speech will run for two or three minutes more than the time allotted. Can I have agreement of the House to allow the Minister to finish his speech?

(Cavan-Monaghan): Agreed.

Many worthwhile improvements have been brought to bear on the public library service over the past few years. Only a small part of expenditure on libraries is reflected in the provision of £347,000 in subhead Q of the Vote for grants to An Chomhairle Leabharlanna which enables them to subsidise library improvements. Of more significance is the amount of the capital provision which I have been able to authorise for local authorities in recent years for investment in new and improved libraries. In all, about £4 million will have been assigned for this purpose between 1978 and 1980. This amount is more than twice as great as the total capital investment in public libraries for the previous ten years. This, together with increased revenue spending on libraries by local authorities themselves, is making for a very real improvement in the spread and quality of this important service.

A total of 68 swimming pools has been constructed since 1967 by or with assistance from local authorities. In practically all areas a 40 per cent subsidy was provided from my Department towards annual loan charges on loans raised by local authorities for the construction of pools. The running costs of swimming pools continue to rise. I cannot emphasise strongly enough the need for efficient management and operation of the pools and their full utilisation in order that full benefit is derived from the recreational facilities they provide.

I am glad to note that the Irish Water Safety Association have expanded their programmes for provision of instruction in swimming and life-saving in pools and other bathing places throughout the country. In addition, the association make a considerable contribution towards the promotion of safety at bathing places by providing assistance and advice for local authorities in relation to the lifeguard service and safety equipment and also through its other activities, including education and publicity.

The administration and general expenses of the Department are borne on subheads A.1, A.2, B.1, B.2, C and D. In 1980 these six subheads came to £8.548 million compared with the 1979 provision of £6.909 million. The increase of £1.639 million is attributable mainly to increases in wages and salary rates and in staff numbers. Extra staff recruitment has been necessary because of the continued growth in activity of the Department.

Obviously the decision to terminate the scheme of house improvement grants has staffing implications. Because of the huge volume of applications received the staff will continue to be fully occupied on grants duties for some time.

Faced with the one hour limit on opening statements, I have been quite unable to deal with all the diverse and wide ranging activities of my Department in the same degree of detail as has been traditional on the occasion of opening the Estimates debate of my Department. I have, however, spoken of all the major items of expenditure in the Department's Vote and the more important services of the Department. The Vote includes many other items which though important in themselves are, relatively speaking, smaller in amount. I just have not had time to go through these items one by one. The purpose of the various expenditures will be clear from the descriptive material in part 3 of the Vote. Should a Deputy wish to obtain additional information about any of these items I shall endeavour to provide it in my reply.

(Cavan-Monaghan): I suppose one should admire a Minister who, when dealing with an impossible task, does so in a highly political way, and to that extent the Minister has put on a good performance. For example, he knows perfectly well that the greatest problem facing local authorities is one of finance, but he dealt with that in two phases. He dealt with it as if it did not exist, and spoke about local authorities as having sufficient funds to improve the standard of the services as well as to embark on new schemes.

Then the Minister went on to the environmental aspects of his Department which is a new responsibility which he has taken on since the name of the Department was changed from that of Local Government. He devoted about five-and-a-half pages of his script to that aspect, though he knows that nothing has been done of an environmental nature since the name of the Department was changed and since this Government assumed office. Indeed, in the Estimate, grant schemes of an environmental nature have been out drastically this year and much unemployment is occurring as a result.

Under the same environmental aspect of the Department the Minister has cut out the £1 million grant that was given to the inner city area of Dublin for environmental purposes. Surely that was a poor performance, yet the Minister devoted five and a half pages of his script to it.

One of the greatest difficulties being experienced throughout the country by local authorities is the impossible condition roads have been allowed to reach but the Minister disposed of this difficult aspect in less than a page. He told us he had provided a road programme for the 1980s and he led us to believe this would solve all our problems. If a foreigner heard about this road programme and saw the condition of our existing roads, I am sure he would come to the conclusion we were going to abandon the existing roads, throwing them away like old clothes and getting new ones because they are in such a deplorable condition. The roads of Ireland are being put to music and the potholes are taking up the time of poets and songwriters in the country.

The Minister tried to put up a good performance by glossing over the difficult aspects of his brief and waffling about the other aspects. The policy of the Government in relation to the Department of the Environment and subsidiaries of that Department, the local authorities, has been disastrous. In a successful vote-getting exercise Fianna Fáil removed rates from private dwellings and certain other dwellings. They did that in one operation, but it is obvious now that when they decided on that political plank in their election platform in 1977 they did not prepare any plans for an alternative method of financing local authorities. They held out the carrot of abolishing rates and assured rate-payers that the Government would accept responsibility for rates on private houses, community halls, and so on. It is clear their thinking stopped there, they did not prepare plans for providing alternative financing for local authorities.

When the present Minister for the Environment on assuming office was confronted with the task of replacing the money the rates brought in, he simply imposed what I would call a uniform national limit of 10 per cent on the amount by which any local authority might increase their rates for one year. He did not take into account the needs of any area, the type of area served, the wealth of the area or the incomes of the people. He simply imposed a blanket rate of 10 per cent right across the country without getting an estimate from any local authority of their requirements.

The Minister has told us that the 10 per cent increase was really 13 per cent because of the increase in the valuations by the introduction into the rating system of new buildings. Of course, he did not give an increase of 13 per cent. In many counties the increase is less than 11 per cent and in very few authorities is the increase 12 per cent. An increase of either 10 per cent or 13 per cent is quite unrealistic when inflation is running at an admitted rate of 20 per cent. The cost of services, particularly maintenance of roads, has increased by 30 per cent; there can be no doubt about this having regard to the increase in wages since January 1979 and the increased cost of materials. Does the Minister think that in permitting an increase of revenue of 10 per cent to local authorities he is being reasonable? Of course he is not being reasonable.

However, the Minister did not impose any increase on certain agencies such as the Office of Public Works and the health boards which demand much more than 10 per cent for the services they render to local authorities. It is clear that this ill-considered policy of imposing a blanket limit of 10 per cent is resulting in a transfer to the Minister of the powers left to local authorities. This same policy is resulting in a reckless running down of our national road network and the public sector housing stock. This policy is starving local authorities of finance and it is resulting in an accumulation of huge bills and liabilities that will have to be paid in the years ahead. This means that the productivity of the local authority work force is very much less than would be the case if they were provided with the moneys that are necessary. The Minister must continue to retain the local authority workforce. If the Government fail in this regard they will be disgraced publicly. There are being retained in the employment of local authority expensive officials from professional men right down along the line. These people must be retained but the moneys that are necessary to enable them to do the work they should be doing are not being provided. Consequently, roads and local authority houses that should be repaired are not being repaired, and that is why I say that productivity in this respect is much less than it should be. Is this not the craziest of economics? It must be very bad value for money.

I should like to dwell for a few moments on how this uniform limit of 10 per cent works. The financing of local authorities is by far the most important aspect of our deliberations here today. The present situation in this regard is not only bad for the country as a whole but will result in huge bills having to be paid in the future. This is because some services which a local authority must provide and certain expenditure which they must incur have increased by much more than 10 per cent. The Office of Public Works, for example, act as agents for county councils in drainage matters; but I know one county council in which the demand from the Office of Public Works this year has increased by 27 per cent compared with last year. In addition, local authorities must also recoup the health boards in respect of supplementary social welfare services and allowances provided on behalf of the local authority. The local authority, too, pay the health boards for the services of the county medical officer and of the community welfare officer. But the increases in health board demands have far exceeded the permitted increases during the past three years. In some counties it is simply impossible to ascertain the indebtedness of the county councils to the health boards because of the situation being so complicated that the accounts have not been clarified yet. However, we can rest assured that the extend of the indebtedness is much greater than 10 per cent. I am aware that certain local authorities have informed the Minister of their inability to discharge their liabilities to the OPW or to the health boards from the funds available to them. The county manager's organisation have told the Minister this year that there is not any way in which local services can be provided in so far as roads and housing are concerned as well as all the other services that have to be provided from the funds being made available. All of this is the result of the political operation of having removed rates from houses in one fell swoop and without giving any thought or consideration to the consequences.

It is unreasonable to impose a limit of 10 per cent on county councils but not to impose any limit on such agencies as the Office of Public Works and the health boards which act on behalf of the county councils. It is common knowledge now that inflation will be at the rate of at least 20 per cent this year. Some schools of thought are saying that the figure will exceed 20 per cent; but it is conceded also that the cost of road works, for instance, has increased by more than 20 per cent. The figures in this regard have been furnished to the Department by much more than one county council. The increases in wages and in materials have been detailed.

Productivity is at an all-time low. Housing repairs are a major problem for most local authorities. I know of a small local authority who provided £32,000 for this work but when they were asked for a breakdown of the figures it was found that £25,000 of the total amount was attributable to wages while the remaining £7,000 was spent on materials. It is difficult to understand how the wage bill in respect of the processing of £7,000 worth of materials would be so high. Anyone can see the deplorable condition of the roads but the situation in regard to houses in different because the state of disrepair is not so obvious to so many people. Any morning in the week we can hear complaints about the state of our roads being aired on the radio. What makes the situation worse is that the cost of doing the necessary work is escalating all the time so that the bills, when they have to be paid, will be huge.

The Minister has told the local authorities that they should determine in their programmes their priorities of service and that they should spend the available moneys in the areas of greatest need. The situation is that the local authorities do not have any discretion in this regard because by the time they have paid the wages and met other statutory demands, such as paying for the services of fire brigades and so on, there is no money left. An increase of 10 per cent in respect of roads and houses hardly means anything. Instead of having an increase of 10 per cent for houses and roads they have practically nothing. In rural areas the big cut-back is on roads and houses; the roads are there to be seen; the houses are there to be suffered. I may be asked—and the present Government are good at asking—what is the solution. The solution is that, when the present Government decided in one fell swoop to move rates from houses, they accepted responsibility to replace the lost revenue. It is not good enough to have a uniform 10 per cent increase right across the board. The proper way to do that is to allow each local authority prepare their estimate in August or September for the following year; let that estimate be prepared by the county or city manager and elected representatives and, if necessary, be vetted by the Minister's Department. But the allocation of funds to a local authority should be based on an estimate, on reality, and not on what the Minister thinks he can squeeze out of his colleague, the Minister for Finance, as is being done at present.

There is another crazy performance going on at present in regard to local authorities. It is this—estimates for the year are not now prepared by local authorities until a quarter of the year has elapsed. The Public Bodies Order has been changed and, instead of preparing estimates in the month of November or December, they have been put back to March. The result is that the expensive and, in some cases, professional work force of local authorities are now marking time in the months of January, February and March; they cannot talk about programmes because they do not know how much money they will have to spend in a given year. Take this year, local authorities were not allowed to prepare their estimates for the calendar year 1980 until into the month of March. Not alone could they not do any worth while work, other than mark time in the months of January, February and March, but they did not know what they were supposed to be doing for the rest of the year. Surely that is bad business to put it mildly? Surely it is an insane way of transacting the business of a large corporation. Supposing a businessman employing a work force of 20 or 30 could not know in January what he would be doing for the rest of the year, could not decide what his work force would be deployed on for the rest of the year, there would be one result only—he would get into serious financial difficulties and would go out of business. But, of course, the State does not go out of business. It can build up huge bills for the future, indulging in a type of unemployment, contending that men are not unemployed when they are, because they are not being provided with the money to do the work they are prepared and anxious to undertake. That gives some idea of the crazy situation obtaining.

I should like now to say a word about home improvement grants. In a general sort of way there has been panic in the Department of the Environment in 1979 and again this year. The Minister thanked his staff for their patience and the way they handled a difficult situation. I want to join with him in sympathising with the staff of the Department for the chaos created for them by the political head of their Department over the past 12 months, and congratulate them on putting up with the conditions obtaining. There was panic in the Department when the driving testing section got into such a mess that there were thousands upon thousands of applications, when the solution found was to scrap the test for a given time and issue licences without any test to people who held their second provisional driving licence on a certain date. That is evidence of incompetence, of bad running of the Department, of being unable to cope.

Then in the home improvement grants section we found that the Government, again as a political ploy, decided to issue home improvement grants without any means test whether for installing hard wood windows, providing expensive amenities in houses, regardless of the valuation of the house or income of the occupant. They were more manifesto tactics to get votes. When this Government assumed office they increased our grant of £400 for home improvements on a £10 valuation means test—which was a reasonable approach—to £600 without any means test. But, when that got into a thorough mess, they decided the best things to do was to scrap that grant altogether, a repetition of the means test operation.

I understand also that when the certificates of reasonable value section of the Department got into a mess they decided that they would do away with those certificates in so far as flats were concerned for four or five months because they were unable to cope. That is the way the Department is being run at present. Let us hope, now that the Minister has an extra Minister of State——.

(Cavan-Monaghan): It is difficult to know where some of these Ministers of State are or what they are doing. But if the Minister has two Ministers of State let us hope they will get down to work and do some tidying up in their Department.

It was indeed a very bad day's work to have abolished the home improvements grant, so necessary at a time when the price of new houses is at an all-time high, as is the cost of money with which to build them. The normal and sensible thing to do was to preserve the existing national housing stock and prolong the life of existing houses. Yet, in those conditions the Minister decides to abolish housing grants altogether. The position is that a person, irrespective of means, can get a grant of £1,000 to build a new house but he cannot get a grant to repair the roof of an existing house, provide water or sewerage facilities or add a room to an existing house if it is grossly overcrowded. Surely that is bad policy. I appeal to the Minister to rethink the decision to abolish such grants.

I have no doubt that the abolition of home improvement grants will drive more people on to the housing lists of local authorities. Some of those people could repair their own houses but they cannot afford to do so because the grants have been abolished. They have been driven on to the housing lists of local authorities at a time when Fianna Fáil are building fewer houses instead of more. The policy of Fianna Fáil with regard to the erection of local authority houses is, and has been to cut back on the number being built annually. In 1972, just before Fianna Fáil left office 5,902 local authority houses were completed but three years later, when Deputy Tully was Minister for Local Government under the National Coalition the number was increased to 8,794. Since Fianna Fáil returned to office the number has reduced again. In 1978 and 1979 the number dropped to 6,214.

The average price of a house, financed by all agencies, in 1976 was £12,258 but in 1979 the average price of a similar type house has increased to £23,688, almost double. It is well known that the building industry at present is in serious difficulty. That has come about because people cannot afford to buy or build their own homes. The finance is not there. There is an obligation on the Minister to provide more local authority houses rather than cutting back on such work. In the course of his speech this morning the Minister warned us that this year fewer houses would be completed. He was gloomy about the prospects in regard to local authority houses.

The Minister told us that he was pleased to be able to announce that he was making £2 million available again this year for local improvement schemes which are not understood in many Departments, certainly, not in the Department of Finance because officials there have been hell-bent on trying to get rid of them. In fact, the figure this year is a reduction of 20 per cent, in nominal terms, on last year's figure of £2,750,000. In real terms that amounts to a reduction of 50 per cent. In my view that amount of money will do half the number of lanes that were done last year. In a number of counties there is a waiting list of up to five years from the date a person applies for such grant to the date the work is carried out.

I have shown that in all areas Fianna Fáil hit at the poorer sections of the community. I cannot think of any less privileged people than those who are living along a backward lane who cannot afford to repair that lane themselves without the help of a local improvement scheme. In our most difficult times the National Coalition maintained those schemes. At one time Fianna Fáil removed them from the Book of Estimates but later reintroduced them. Why do Fianna Fáil insist on hitting at the poorer sections of the community? The Government are hitting those anxious to avail of local improvement schemes, those who want to replace the roof on their house, provide water or toilet facilities or make their house waterproof. The Minister should do something about those people. Of course, in recent times also those who avail of the school transport system have been hit.

The Minister has introduced a scheme revising local authority grants. That was done without any meaningful discussion taking place with the tenants' organisations in clear breach of an arrangement between the former Minister for Local Government and the organisations concerned. The Minister may say that he or officials of his Department met representatives of those organisations but when he did he presented a finalised scheme to them. The old scheme is gone.

One objection is to the method of fixing the rent of old houses and the example given in the scheme is that a house build in 1935 at a cost of £393 is now updated to present day money values and the price is taken at £6,046. The rent is fixed accordingly. Many of these houses do not have bathrooms or indoor toilets and it is a disgrace that a rent of over £6 a week should be fixed on some of them. They have been increased dramatically. I know another man who had the rent of a new house fixed last November at something less than £3. Under this scheme the rent of that house will go up to £7.80 although he is married and has five children. Admittedly he is living on sickness benefit and that is the reason the rent of the house has been jacked up from £2.65 to £7.80. It is assumed that social welfare benefits are only enough to keep body and soul together, especially for a married man with five young children. I appeal to the Minister to scrap this scheme before it runs him into more trouble. He should have a discussion about it with people who want to have a reasonable discussion with him about it and arrive at a reasonable method of dealing with the problem.

I should now like to deal with the old chestnut of the Dublin Corporation offices at Wood Quay. It is a controversy that has been going on for some time. The position changed utterly when the site was declared a national monument. It has further changed since it appears that valuable historical finds are still being found there. The question of Wood Quay and its preservation is a national issue and not a local or Dublin City Council one. It is an issue for the country and should be dealt with as such. Apart from the historic value of the site it is wrong to build offices there because it will add to the congestion there. I understand that in order to do the job properly four towers were necessary. Fewer than four are now being build which means that a perfect job will not be done.

The point is that there is a national monument with historic links of international value and the Government, headed by the Taoiseach who prides himself on being a man of culture and interested in the fine arts, should preserve Wood Quay and build the offices elsewhere. This issue has been going on for a long time. That is the way it should be dealt with even at this stage because if it goes on for much longer it will be too late.

The greatest catastrophe that has befallen local government is the starving of local authorities of finance. It means that value is not been given for money spent. Productivity is at an all-time low. Men are being told not to use machines but to go back to the pick and shovel. Huge bills are being run up which will have to be paid. If the roads and other services are allowed to deteriorate it will only result in bills having to be paid in the future.

I am sure the Minister in opening the debate on his Estimate must have felt the same way as Richard Nixon did when he was attempting to defend himself against the charges about Watergate. He had the best possible advice available and therefore he was able to produce a fairly good case to those who did not understand what had happened. For those who do understand one can only be of the opinion that the country is in a bigger mess than was ever suspected.

The Minister for Finance in his budget speech made great play about the fact that bottled gas was much cheaper in this country than it was in Britain or Northern Ireland. He must have known when he said that that three days later gas would go up by 79p a bottle which would make it much dearer here. Last Friday the Minister for Education presented his Estimate and waxed eloquent on many aspects of education.

Speakers on this side of the House have asked what is happening about the school bus service. The Minister remained silent on that item and concluded his debate without even mentioning the fact that three days later his Department would announce drastic, disastrous changes in the school bus system. Will the Minister for the Environment in a couple of days' time dig up something else? Looking at the facts as I see them, it is not possible for him to announce anything which would make matters much worse than they are at present.

If there were no inflation, if we completely ignored inflation and if money this year was of the same value as last year or the year before, the amount of money made available under the various headings would be adequate. However, inflation is a fact of life. This Government took over from us less than three years ago when inflation was 7 per cent. It has now reached roughly 20 per cent and I am of the school of thought which believes that it will go as high as 22 per cent this year. Inflation has so eaten into the amount of money given under various headings that it is almost useless.

In order to be able to make a comment which can be backed up with figures, I got the co-operation of my local authority members in County Meath and we found out the facts as well as we could. I propose, with the permission of the Chair, to give a comment on these facts here. What applies in County Meath applies elsewhere. Let me start with local authority housing, to which the Minister was just a little bit shy in referring here. He did not go into great detail.

The position is as follows: in 1977, the National Coalition Government, while I was Minister, gave Meath County Council £1,750,000 for local authority housing. In 1978, with 11 per cent inflation, that would require £1,942,500; in 1979, with 10 per cent more inflation, it would come to £2,136,750 and this year, 1980, with a 20 per cent inflation, it would amount to £2,564,100 to supply the same number of houses, even if the price were the same as in 1977. This year's allocation for Meath is £1,000,070. That shows that we have reached a stage where local authority housing must practically cease in County Meath.

In 1969-70, under Fianna Fáil, there were 92 local authority houses built. In 1970-71, there were 82. In 1971-72, there were 76. In 1972-73, there were 65—a total for four years of 350 local authority houses, an average of 79 a year. In 1973-74, there were 200. In the nine months of 1974, there were 97. In 1975, there were 282. In 1976, there were 206. In 1977, there were 161—a total of 946 for four and three quarter years, an average of 199 houses a year. How many houses are we building now? Meath County Council gave a housing report at their May meeting. The number of local authority houses completed in the first four months of 1980 is one—ach cheann amháin. Perhaps, the Minister may say that that was only the first quarter but in his speech today he pointed out that money will be very scarce. There will be very little money left for local authority housing for the rest of the year. I suggest he might go further and say that there is no money available. Although it was the practice over a number of years to give an allocation of money to local authorities for housing purposes for the first six months of the year and a second allocation some time in June to cover the second six months, this year one allocation was given and no further allocation. So far, the local authorities just do not know the position but the Minister himself says here that there is not much money available for the rest of the year and that they must tighten their belts.

Let me take this a stage further. Do not forget that the former Taoiseach, Deputy Jack Lynch, in December 1975 and in February 1976 made a comment in this House of the then Government, of which I had the honour to be Minister for Local Government, that what was wrong with that Government was that they were building too many local authority houses in relation to the number of houses being built. He said that twice. When he got back into office as Taoiseach again, he carried out what he felt was the right thing to do. He decided to stop local authority houses being built. All sort of things were built into this decsion, including, for the first time, the question of income. The income of applicants for local authority housing was taken into account for the first time.

We then had the new Messiah, Deputy Charles Haughey, taking over as Taoiseach. Apparently, he does not agree with Deputy Lynch on many things but appears to agree with him on that one thing. There is not to be any extra money for local authority housing. Who now have the situation that people who want rehousing must try to provide houses themselves. There was a song and dance here about the fact that this Government had increased the amount of money a person could earn and the amount of money which could be borrowed if they wanted to build a local authority house. This Government are under the impression that nobody in the country who needs a house earns less than £5,500 a year. If they are not earning that amount, they will not get the full £12,000 loan. Mind you, £5,500 a year is £105.77p a week. Leaving everything else aside—strikes and all the rest of it—the Minister has admitted that the price of a local authority house at the present time is £20,000. In County Meath it is extremely difficult to get a reasonably sized local authority house for £20,000. In Galway, it must be £25,000 to £30,000. In County Meath and most of our rural areas it is around £20,000. In Dublin it would be very much more.

With a £20,000 house, if it is the first time that person is purchasing or building a house, he or she will get £1,000 from the State, eventually. A young couple, starting off in those circumstances, would need to have a savings of at least £3,500. That would give them £4,500 out of the £20,000. They would then have to borrow £15,500. If they are lucky, they can borrow a local authority loan of £12,000, on which the monthly repayments are £128.38p or £29.60 a week. The total amount they will repay is £46,217. If they get a bank loan, a second or bridging loan on the house to be repaid over a three-year period, the total amount would be £3,500, on which the monthly repayments would be £127.30p, weekly repayments £29.38p if repaid over three years, £4,583. For a young person with £5,500 a year, qualifying for an SDA loan with £1,000 deducted, who is very thrifty and has been able to save £3,500, the total repayment over a 30-year period would be £255.68p per month, or £59.1p a week and a repayment in toto of £50,850. If their savings are less, he or she will have to try to borrow more and the amount goes up. On top of that there will be legal fees of approximately £250. The local authority or the SDA scheme will not provide the money until the house is completed so there will be bridging loan interest of £817 for four months. That is an extra sum of £1,117.

Would the Minister sit back and think how many young people he knows who want houses and who can in this day and age produce £3,500 out of their pockets, borrow £12,000 from a local authority, borrow a further £3,500 from a bank, build a house and live on what they will be able to have after paying the interest? I can tell him now that nobody is able to do that. This has resulted in hundreds of young people who have attempted to do something like this being at their wits end dodging everybody coming with bills because they either cannot pay for the running of their houses or they cannot repay their loans. That is the reason so many of those houses come up for sale in a very short time and why it is such a heart break for many people to see their dream houses, planned for and built when they got married, being sold. They may make a few thousand pound profit but that certainly will not re-house them.

The Government have led those young people into that situation because they have not got the decency to admit that they made a mistake when they said that local authority houses should not be provided for those who need them. When we left office—this is not our figure but the Government's figure—70 per cent of the people looking for local authority houses were families of three people, a man, his wife and one child. What is the present position? I know the answer just as well as the Minister. He made a rather stupid reference in his speech to the fact that the people in Dublin are getting more money than places in the housing list represent. Of course they are not. All the money that is available for local authority houses could be given to Dublin to try to make some dent in the appalling position with regard to housing and we still would not give them enough.

I am proud of the fact that during my time Dublin got the lion's share, even though I am a countryman and I realised that all through the country there were people waiting for houses. The merit was there in Dublin and Dublin got it. Dublin City Council stood up to it and built houses when they got the money. They would do it again if they got the money. Today is a very important day in Dublin because I understand that the City Quay people are seeing officially opened a half dozen of the houses which we bulldozed through. The Fianna Fáil Government would not do it because the Minister for Local Government would not sign a CPO in 1968 when the houses could be built at a reasonable cost. I signed the order when it came through. The first houses in City Quay for 50 years have now been built. It is quite evident that what the Fianna Fáil Government and the Minister feel about local authority housing is nothing new. It is not something he thought up himself. This has been Fianna Fáil tactics for a long time. The ordinary workingclass people of the country do not count except at election time. They are then very important. Their No. 1 is just as good as anybody elses. Fianna Fáil have proved it now as they have done before. That is why we have the appalling housing situation throughout the country. As far as the amount of money being made available for housing is concerned, it is quite obvious that the Government have no intention of trying to continue the very good start that was made by the Coalition Government.

Another item which bears a relation to this, which I would like to deal with now, is the question of the arrangement that was made with regard to farmers' valuation rating, qualification for housing loans and so forth. Before the local elections farmers were brought together in every constituency, including mine. We were brought in like sheep to the slaughter while the Fianna Fáil candidates, outgoing TD's, promised everything for nothing. No matter what anybody else was giving they upped it. They would do everything. This applies to taxation in particular.

What has happened with regard to farmer taxation? The Minister put through a Bill relating to agricultural grants for farmers. Let me give an example. In 1979 a farmer with a land valuation of £40.75p had a gross bill for rates of £325.98p, less allowances. Since the first £30 valuation was exempt for rates that was £124.79p. The supplementary allowance was £48.55p so that his total allowance was £173.34p. The amount of rates which he had to pay, was, therefore, £152.64p. With the allowance abolished and a 10 per cent increased allowance this year this man now has to pay £358.57p, an increase of 135 per cent over the 1979 figure. It does not make any difference if he has eight children, that is what he pays.

Neighbours of mine who are in that position are certainly not rich people. They work hard, have less than an industrial worker in a neighbouring town at the end of the week, and are finding it very hard to live. This is the way they are treated but that is only the start of it. If they are applying for an SDA loan to build a house the position is since 30 January last, according to circular letter H5/18 for the purpose of determining eligibility the income of the applicant for the income tax year preceding the date of the loan application must not have exceeded £5,500. The rateable valuation of land eligibility for applicants who are farmers is now £44, which is the valuation equivalent of £5,500 on the basis of the current multiplier of £125 per £1 rateable valuation. While they can get it up to £60 they are in fact now down to £44.

The position is that the eligibility on income grounds of an applicant who is the son of a farmer, working on and obtaining his sole livelihood from his father's farm and who satisfies the local authority that he has no other income, may be accepted provided the land valuation of his father's farm does not exceed £66. Is that the way to encourage people to house themselves? Is that what Fianna Fáil think of our small farmers? Do they believe they should be treated as if they were outcasts? They have not got the money to build their own houses. Up until now they could borrow it from the SDA. Now they cannot and, in addition to that, they are being stuck for hundreds of pounds more in rates even on a farm with a valuation slightly over £40. This is showing up Fianna Fáil in their true colours. We now know what we can expect from them. In relation to the purchase price of local authority houses, in my time here I was glad to have houses which were built a 100 years ago sold for £100 each to tenants. The price gradually went up to £393 in 1935 and now the Minister feels that people should be asked to pay £6,046 for these houses and tells us that they are good value when compared to other houses. If the Minister spent a while in some of the towns in these houses where there is no water and no sewerage would he still think they are worth £6,046, especially now when if the person wishes to repair the house and put in water and sewerage he must pay for it from his own pocket because there is no grant?

When we were on this side of the House some of the Minister's colleagues, particularly the present Minister for Defence and the Minister for Labour, used every opportunity barking across the House about the price of houses and the small grants being given. We were told that it was terrible that we were not doing something about grants for people who wished to repair their own houses. We got long lectures on the necessity to maintain the housing stock and so on. I agreed with their arguments. Fianna Fáil in their election manifesto on page 27, paragraph 6 says:

Fianna Fáil will introduce a new scheme for house improvement grants.

They certainly did; they did away with them altogether. That is what Fianna Fáil call honesty in politics. Item No. 3 on page 27 of the manifesto says:

Fianna Fáil will review the whole system of housing finance.

They did that too—they did away with the water and sewerage grants and the reconstruction grants. The Minister introduced a scheme of grants for changing from oil-fired central heating to solid fuel. A lot of fairly well to do people and people who were not so well off switched from oil-fired central heating to solid fuel central heating and got the grant of up to £600, or the promise of it. The Minister made a number of mistakes in relation to this and perhaps things would have been better had he explained it to the cumann in Clare that night. However, the Minister did not explain it to them, nor to the press the next day nor to anyone in this House, and eventually everyone was running around in circles. Those who had gas-fired or oil-fired central heating were allowed to retain that and put in solid fuel heating and get the grant while those who had no heating would not get a grant under any circumstances. Somebody in a house with hot water from an electrical system, or with a back boiler and a grate for heating the water did not qualify for the grant. That was obviously specifically put in to rule out the occupants of local authority houses. People who build decent houses, if they can afford it, normally put in central heating; but if they cannot they put in a back boiler. Someone who could afford central heating got the grant but if a person could not afford central heating and only put in a back boiler he would not qualify for the grant. That seems to be the sort of thinking the Minister applied to those grants. We now have a situation where houses are falling into disrepair unless the people can afford to repair them without a grant.

In relation to the rents on local authority houses, I noted with interest, as did Deputy Fitzpatrick, the way the Minister phrased his comment about his discussions with the National Association of Tenants' Organisations. The Minister said that after discussion with them the decision was taken and the rents increased. I am satisfied that that discussion simply amounted to bringing them in, listening to their proposal and the Minister they saying what was to be done. I understand that NATO are again starting a rent strike.

When I took over in 1973 a rent strike had been on for two-and-a-half years. Fianna Fáil could not stop it. They had built abominable houses and asked high rents for them. With the assistance of an excellent group of officials in the Department I succeeded in settling the rents strike. I understand that since then and before the 1977 election two people at least from Fianna Fáil met the tenants association and promised that they would give the same conditions which we had agreed on. They did that because they were afraid that the tenants would support anti-Fianna Fáil people. NATO asked for what they got when, knowing Fianna Fáil, they accepted the promise. They are not now getting what they were promised and what we offered them.

Provision has been made in the new arrangements that social welfare recipients must have all their social welfare benefits taken into consideration. Up to this only 50 per cent of their benefit was taken into account. This aspect explains the remarkable increases in rents which have been remarked on today where people who had been paying about £2 are now paying about £6. By increasing a social welfare recipient's rent by £2 or £3 the Minister is reducing the social welfare benefit by that amount. If the Department of Social Welfare decide that it is necessary to give a certain amount of money to allow a person to live in a certain amount of comfort, surely it is unfair, unchristian and immoral for the Government to take the money from their pockets in this way. The sooner the Minister realises that he has made a mess of the thing the better for everybody concerned.

In case the Minister says that this was not what was intended I would refer him to circular H7/80, Rents of Local Authority Dwellings. There is something appalling in that. We all know that local authority tenants are anxious to purchase their houses if they can, but in this circular there is a proviso that necessary repairs shall be carried out before the house is sold. For quite some time local authorities have been unable to carry out these repairs because they have not got the money. When I left office the local authority were entitled to keep 45 per cent of the proceeds of sales of dwellings to tenants which could be included in the housing revenue account and used towards meeting the cost of managing and maintaining rented housing estates. Now the local authorities cannot sell the houses to tenants because it is illegal to sell them in need of repair, and they have not the money to carry out repairs. This is taking advantage of people with little money who are attempting to live and rear families in these houses. That is a disgraceful situation.

A story is being handed out by some local authorities to those people that it is all right, that if they apply before a certain period the price will remain static. It does not have to go up. Tell that to a man who is paying £8 a week rent and it is not repaired for two years and ask whether the local authority will give him credit for 104 weeks at £8 a week. They will not do any such thing, so he is buying his own house over the period of two years. He still has to pay rent and that rent is not credited to him. The house costs all that extra money although he can be told that the local authority will sell it to him at the price it was when he applied for purchase.

I have gone into housing fairly thoroughly. However, since I have only half an hour left I will have to pass on, but I will come back to one or two items. I want to talk about water and sewerage and I will take the example of the country I know best. With the assistance of my good friends the Labour councillors in Meath, I have come up with the following figures: in 1977 the amount given for water and sewerage in Meath was £600,000 and the amount required for 1980 was £561,000, if we allow for the inflation which has occurred in the meantime. We got £375,000. The shortfall for 1980, therefore, is £186,000. While this is happening there are schemes in County Meath which have been waiting for sanction, and I refer particularly to Summerhill which came in before I left office and is still there and apparently nothing has been done about it. Recently people have been refused planning permission pending the bringing in of the sewerage scheme. I refer to the Mornington sewerage scheme on which an enormous amount of money was spent on the first stage, the building of the headworks. It is sitting there now and second and third stages cannot be proceeded with because the money will not be made available. Those are only two of the schemes which are required.

In 1979 the amount of money given for small schemes was £70,000. With inflation this year of £14,000 we would require £84,000 in Meath and we got £60,000, a shortfall of £24,000. What is the Minister talking about, saying that he has given additional money? If there was no inflation he would be giving additional money, but there is inflation. It is a fact of life which he has to face. I have already given the housing figures. In 1977 we got £1.75 million and in 1979, £1.315 million. With inflation of £263,000 we would have required £1,758,000. The allocation this year is £1,070,000. We have already a shortfall of £508,000 and it is quite clear from what the Minister said in the Estimate so that he could go back to it again, that there would not be any more money for housing, and that includes Meath, Dublin, and everywhere else in this year of 1980.

What about the loan? In Meath in 1979 we got £2,300,000. We required £3.5 million this year. We were allocated £1.4 million, leaving us £700,000 short and that for the half-year. I would like to puncture a balloon which the Minister has been trailing around for some time and that is the increase to £12,000 for loans and the increase in the amount of income. These would help if we got more money to lend but if you divide the amount of money by £12,000 and then divide the same amount of money by 4,500 and by 6,000 it indicates that you have put a higher category into the loan availability and you have left out those for whom this Government refused to build local authority houses. You have reached the stage where the number of loans which can be given is very small. Most local authorities tell me that they have already allocated the amount of money which they got for this year, they cannot entertain any further applications and that is that.

Let us come to roads which have been referred to here as if they were something with which the Government had a tremendous rapport. The biggest trouble at present is that Government Ministers driving in their State cars are far too comfortable because they do not seem to get down to what happens when somebody in a not-so-good car hits the type of road which is far too prevalent in this country at present with potholes which cannot be repaired. Deputy Fitzpatrick was correct, and far be it from me to start commenting on what local authority employees are doing, but in many areas the only thing they can be put to is filling potholes from buckets of tarmac or opening water-ducts or cutting weeds because there is no money for materials. Recently somebody said that if this Government did not spend an extra £10 million immediately on roads, in a very short time it would take an additional £20 billion to rebuilt them completely. A couple of years ago I had a deputation from Offaly complaining that there were so many bogs in the county that the roads had split badly and they told me about all the money that would be required to put them back to what they should have been. I had sympathy with them and we tried to give a certain amount of money to them in order to try to repair the worst of the roads. God knows, practically every road in the country is in that condition now. The roads are splitting in two. We have all had experience of driving along the road particularly towards evening when the traffic runs a little lighter, and especially on country roads, and finding people driving on the middle of the road even going around corners. The reason is that they dare not go into the edge of the road where the potholes are so bad. They are really appalling. I had an unnerving experience the other day. I was travelling along a national primary road and there was a young man in front of me on a motorbicycle. He was not going very fast. He pulled in to the potholes, foolishly I think, because I would have gone across the road in order to pass him. He was well in to the side, about 50 yards in front of me and he went into a pothole and his front wheel burst. Luckily he was not hurt, but that is an example of what is happening. Over the last couple of months there have been hundreds of accidents most of them minor, because of the appalling state of the roads.

What do the Government, and the Minister in particular, intend to do about this? It appears he is not prepared to do anything. According to his statement here this morning, he seems to think that everything in the garden is lovely, that we do not need do anything except leave it alone and everything is grand. The roads in the country districts are bad, and if one goes into any town in Ireland it is not unusual to find the roads in the same state as they used to be left a few years ago for a couple of months after a water or sewerage scheme was completed. They are all like that now everywhere we go. I go through Drogheda which is very close to me, Navan and Trim and on every damn road it is a matter of driving at 5 m.p.h. Speed limit signs are not necessary now because people dare not travel at more than 15 or 20 m.p.h. on the best roads there are because of the condition of the road. This is what we are getting from the Government who, according to themselves, are going to have a special review of the state of the roads of the country. They do not need to do so now. The smallest school child now can tell them what it is.

They are talking about the environment and saying that they did something about the air. I thought that we had a monitoring system in this city over a number of years which gave a very accurate reading of what the air was like and how the environment was affected. I am surprised to find hay made of the fact that they have decided they are going to do something about it. I have thought of this always as an ongoing thing, in Deputy Lenehan's words, with regard to the environment. Legislation passed in my time provided very strong powers to prevent people polluting rivers and streams and water supplies. While the report apparently has been given to the Minister I think too many people are escaping. I see where a firm in County Louth have been fined for the second time for polluting a stream. I had a query in the House about a very important agricultural society accused of allowing effluent into a stream. They did not want to pollute the stream but they knew it was happening and did not stop it. It did pollute water. When somebody took a sample it was alleged that the sample was taken out of water which had come from the tank, not from the stream itself, or an outside tap. It was said that the water was quite safe but the local people do not believe so and will not drink it. I suggested to one of the Minister's colleagues that he might give a push in this matter and he said the county council were responsible for checking. I suggested he should try to get them to do something about it. It is important in rural Ireland to have these things seen to. He said he had done so but I do not know that anything has yet happened.

There is also the question of the State fishing interest that are creating murder and rightly so. There is a matter that has been dragging on for a number of years—pig slurry. I thought we had stopped it in Lough Sheelin area, County Cavan. Apparently, it is now as bad as ever. Farmers definitely have rights on their own land but one right they do not have is to pollute water. Most of them are sensible enough to know it is in their own interests not to cause pollution but some do cause it and allow it to continue. They should be prosecuted and something should be done to ensure that they will not do it again. The same applies to local authorities. I have much sympathy with them because they do not get the necessary money to prevent it. I remember giving a lot of money for a secondary scheme for Lough Ennel, Mullingar and they looked for a tertiary scheme immediately because the lake was almost dead.

These matters affect a large number of people in certain areas and the Department of the Environment should have a Minister strong enough to be able to get the necessary money from the Government. Any Minister for Finance will give as little as possible to anybody prepared to take it and if the Minister in charge of a Department is not strong enough there are problems. Let us stop trying to say that the civil servants run the country; they do not. They make recommendations and it is up to the Minister to make decisions. Let the Minister be man enough to ensure that he gets sufficient money to finance whatever he decides to do and not hide behind somebody's coat tails.

Something must be done quickly about roads. Local authorities must get the necessary money. They have asked the Minister to meet deputations but he refused. I was long enough in the Custom House to know that if there is any inclination not to meet deputations—I think I met practically everybody who asked—it is usually because there is nothing you can do. You do not meet them if you have to say "No". This happens with regard to roads. Local authorities all over the country and their general council have created murder about the roads because the money they are getting is not nearly enough. But there is a bigger problem arising, wages. Local authority employees have to be paid. The 10 per cent put on by the Minister ensured that there was no way in which local authorities could make provision for the wage increases which were to occur this year. The wage increases have been sanctioned by the Department and are in course of payment but this means—to use an expression employed by Ministers wishing to decry high wages—you are going to put people out of jobs. Despite the fact that I have spent 30 years trying to give local authority workers a decent standard of living they are still near the bottom of the ladder in regard to wages and it is too bad that when they get an increase the result should be, unless the Government come to their senses, that most of these people will be out of a job. Over the last few years local autharities have not been replacing those laid off and they have cut down staffs. Now, even the few left will very likely have to suffer as a result of what has happened. It is a very sad situation. Local authorities employed small contractors to do certain jobs. Some of them were ordinary workers who took up small contracting jobs. All those have been laid off—contracting work at a full stop; overtime, full stop: it is out.

As we are now hopefully coming into the summer it is appalling to find water supplies almost non-existent. In my area they are doing their best to keep supplies going but the water usually goes off at night and is not back until perhaps midmorning the following day. Neighbours in Mornington have not had a bath at weekends for months because there is no water available for several days on end. This is in the area of a new scheme which I officially opened less than four years ago. That scheme which was supplying Drogheda and east Meath was supposed to give us one million gallons of water a day. It now gives us 720,000 gallons and the shortage is supposed to be caused because the pipes are partly clogged up. There are more meters there than in a moon ship and why somebody was unable to see that the supply of water supposed to come through those pipes was not in fact coming—this must have been happening over a long period—is beyond understanding. Now it means they will either have to add another pipe or close off one section while they clean another. It is not fair, after spending the money we did spend that such a thing should happen.

The road tax was abolished for a few months and then £5 was added on and then that became £10. If Fianna Fáil are there long enough we shall be back where we were paying road tax as before but under a different name. A £10 registration fee is just as hard to pay as £10 road tax.

I want to refer here to a point made by Deputy Fitzpatrick. While he was correct up to a point he might be misunderstood on one aspect of it. In fact Fianna Fáil did not, although they talked about it, take rates off domestic dwellings. That was done by the Coalition Government. I was the Minister responsible for introducing one-quarter reduction in 1976 and three-quarter of the balance off in 1977 and whatever was left would go off in 1978. I think that was the point Deputy Fitzpatrick was making, that it was taken off in one piece but it would have been better if it had been taken off in instalments because it would have given an opportunity to build up the amount of money required to replace rates.

I think it is very unfair to put an upper limit on local authorities. It is grand in that it gives the Custom House control over what local authorities spend. That is the big issue. But it takes away the autonomy of local authorities. I believe elected representatives are the salt of the earth. They work and do not get paid for it. Some of them lose more in wages than they get in travel allowances. It is unfair that having been elected by the people their powers should be limited by one man in the Custom House. I do not think the Minister should be allowed to do that.

I was surprised that the Minister referred to swimming pools at all. We have built a lot of swimming pools. In my county there are three public pools and the proposal is that one would be open this week and the other two closed, one open the next week and two closed, one open the third week and two closed. The Minister must be aware that that situation is even worse in his part of the country. Some of them have closed completely. Talking about efforts to try to keep swimming pools open is a bit of a cod when we know what the score is.

I am a great believer in having swimming pools made available. I wish they would finish the one in Drogheda. There is niggling between various groups. I should like to see it finished and operating properly. People living in working class areas hire buses to take their children to learn to swim outside their own areas. Some system should be adopted which would allow those children to learn to swim in a pool which has cost the State and the local authority so much, and which is now being closed down on the plea that it is costing too much to maintain it.

Reference was made to Wood Quay. I should like to make a comment on something which is not well known outside the Custom House. The work at Wood Quay would have proceeded and there would be no row now but for the fact that I stopped the building in 1973 or 1974. At that time there were rumours of finds and I thought it would be a pity to allow the building to go ahead without having everything investigated. Many of the people who are kicking up a row now were not to be seen then. I give them all credit for the efforts they are making now. Things must be taken in their proper context. Everybody is anxious to see the best done. The comments some people are making about what is happening are unfair.

We moved the towers down from where they were completely covering Christ Church. We could not get agreement from any of the bodies concerned that the site for the city offices should be changed to one of a number of other sites which were available. People working for Dublin Corporation are working in appalling conditions. Somebody told me that for 25 years they have been agitating for new offices. It appears as if they will have to agitate for many years more unless agreement can be reached on where the offices will be based if they are not to be built at Wood Quay. It will cost a lot of money to make this change. It cost a lot of money to make the change in the Central Bank. Arguing over it while there is ongoing expenditure and continual "aggro" is not the way to run a city and it is not the way to run the Government. Somebody must make a final decision one way or the other. I want to put it on record that it would have been concluded if I had not done what I did. Possibly I was wrong, but I think it was the right thing to do at the time.

Before I left office I put into operation a gratuity and pension scheme for the local authorities under the 1948-55 local government superannuation scheme which is very useful. A couple of things are happening of which the Department of the Environment should take notice. When people die and their widows are entitled to their pension, they are not notified by the local authority of their entitlement. Secondly, if they apply for a pension a hefty amount is deducted for income tax if they have a widow's pension or an old age pension as well. They are not told it is necessary to supply a tax free allowance in order to recover that. That is wrong. The local authorities should not treat their servants or the dependants of their servants in that way. I am not satisfied that every local authority is applying the right scale to the making up of the pension paid to the widows. Some of them are being made up in the wrong way as a result of a circular issued by the Department on a very appropriate date, 12 July 1979. If you intend to squeeze the income of an Irishman or woman, 12 July is a good date to select. Somebody in the Department might have a look at that and perhaps something could be done.

I want to refer to An Bord Pleanála. I set up that board. I selected people to work on the board. They did an excellent job. I was sorely disappointed that, when they got the opportunity, the new Government dumped those people although they said they had not removed them. They got letters saying: "Thank you very much for your services", which meant they were not being reappointed. When I inquired about this by way of question I was told a decision to replace them had not been taken. Obviously a decision had been taken, because they were sacked. I have religiously steered clear of An Bord Pleanála. I never asked any member, or the board in general, to do anything, either by talking to them or by writing to them since I set up the board. I thought that would be unfair. Perhaps I am a political infant.

When the new board were appointed I noticed two things. I put a woman on the board. That was a mistake and I should have put two women on the board. She was put off the board and she was not replaced. There is no woman on the board now. I did not hear any of the Women's Libbers say anything about that. Women's ideas on planning are very important. I also put an architect on the board. There is no architect on the new board. There is an additional engineer but no architect.

A vacancy was left on the board. If their work had been up to date I could understand that, but it was not. Whether there are not enough inspectors or whether the board cannot do their work in the time, I do not know. They have a tough job. I know that because for three of the four years I was in the Custom House I had responsibility for that, with one Parliamentary Secretary. There were two of us, not three, and we succeeded in getting a fairly good turnover. I am surprised that a full-time board have not been able to clear up the work. Even taking account of the postal strike, it is not good enough that somebody should have to wait for six months for a decision on a simple planning appeal. If the Minister is responsible for that because he will not appoint the additional member or members to the board, he is wrong.

When I appointed the board I was prepared to stand over everybody I appointed. I kept away deliberately from the politicians. I appointed a bread van driver who happened to be associated with a branch of my organisation in a very simple way. I am glad to say that, so far as I know, he did an excellent job. I appointed him because I thought somebody without the trappings of a specialist should be on the board. I got plenty of stick from Fianna Fáil in this House. They wondered why an ordinary bread van driver should be appointed to the board. I believe such people have more integrity perhaps than many of the professionals. I noticed that Fianna Fáil said nothing—and we were too gentlemanly to comment on it—when the Minister appointed a brother of a Member of this House, an excellent man, a man who will do his job very well. It is amazing how these things happen.

From listening to the debate here today and from my observations of what is going on, I am satisfied we now have a Government bankrupt of ideas, and bankrupt of money. In fact, we have a bankrupt Government.

I congratulate the Minister on the way he has introduced his Estimate. Despite the economic constraints it is clear from the Minister's speech that he is determined to pursue the policies adopted by the Government in 1977 in relation to the development of services under his Department. I am a member of Donegal County Council and I am well aware of the situation during the term of office of the last Government, particularly during their last year. At that time we in Donegal were starved of finance and many of the schemes which we tried to undertake were held up. We could not make progress on our primary roads programme and house building and other schemes necessary for the development of the county could not be undertaken.

I am as well aware as any other Deputy of the needs of local Communities and I was surprised this morning at the play made of the abolition of rates. Fianna Fáil abolished rates on private dwellings, but from figures given here this morning £106.56 million has been given to local authorities in grants. Are the Opposition suggesting that rates should be re-introduced, or are they suggesting that the 10 per cent limit on increases in rates should be abolished? Many of the people who still pay rates are small business people, and are the Opposition suggesting that the rates they now pay should be increased by more than 10 per cent? It is known that when the central Government provide money for schemes at local level people let their imaginations run away with them and think that whatever is asked for will be given. The restrictions imposed since the abolition of rates may not have produced all the money necessary for local authorities, but the 10 per cent limit at least provided a guideline to local authority members as to how much those still paying rates should be asked to contribute.

I should like to refer particularly to a matter referred to by the Minister, the problem of litter. It is a problem the public should be made aware of constantly. I represent a county which depends largely on tourism and it is disappointing to see our beaches and scenic spots littered with all kinds of refuse. I suggest the initiation of a national anti-litter campaign, lasting for a week or a fortnight before the beginning of the tourist season. It would serve to bring to our people an awareness of the need to keep places tidy. Various associations have done good work, particularly in the Tidy Towns Competition, and they are to be complimented. They should be encouraged and helped by the local authorities but I am afraid that in many instances the reverse is the case: local authority dumps and storage places at the entrances to towns and villages are untidy, and an effort should be made by local authorities to keep these places in a tidy state. I suggest that the Minister for the Environment should emphasise this to the local authorities so that towns and villages and the countryside will be kept in a condition which will not be offensive to tourists.

Pollution has become a big problem and I am afraid it is being neglected. I consider that the fines being imposed on offenders should be increased in an effort to make people aware of their responsibilities.

In this connection I would ask the Minister to pay special attention to County Donegal which is nearly completely surrounded by the sea. We have a particular worry in regard to the River Foyle. This matter has been discussed publicly many times but it is still not clear whose responsibility it is to protect that river in the event of oil spillages. Many tankers use parts of the river but it is not clear whose responsibility it is to clear pollution in the case of a disaster. Apparently the Northern Ireland authorities will not take entire responsibilityo nor will Donegal County Council. There are many magnificent beaches on the lower reaches of that river and we should be told whose responsibility it is to clear them in case of oil spillages.

Local authority housing is a very emotive question. From what the Opposition have been saying it would appear that they solved all our housing problems while they were in office. My experience as a local councillor is that the problem was worse at the end of their term of office than at the beginning. When Fianna Fáil returned, the first thing they did was to introduce the £1,000 new house grant. As well, they reduced the eligibility figure for loans and consequently an impact was made on the provision of housing for our people. Unfortunately, during this year increased costs of land, materials and wages have taken their toll on the house building programme. In order to carry out the necessary works, finances are necessary and they must be got through taxation. Nevertheless, I am convinced the Government are committed to ensuring that the housing programme is continued and that people who are not in a position to provide their own houses are given the necessary assistance.

The Minister should undertake a survey to find out how many people are prepared to provide land on which to build their house with assistance from the State. In this connection I should like to mention the scheme known as the specific instance scheme. It appears in my county the county manager and his staff are opposed to this scheme. That is wrong. People should be allowed to live where they wish and this pool of land that has been offered by many people in Donegal should be used. Emphasis should be put on such development to ensure that areas like Donegal are not denuded of population. Members of local authorities know that when housing schemes are developed in towns and villages social problems can be created. I know that money must be spent to the best advantage of the community but if recreational and other amenities are not provided for young families social problems may occur. We should put emphasis on the building of single houses in rural areas and county councils should be asked to give priority to this kind of development.

I am concerned about the amount of money being made available to Donegal County Council for the provision of water and sewerage schemes. We have two major regional schemes in the area known as the East Inishowen and West Inishowen regional water supply schemes. It is vital that these schemes be proceeded with. Many people who wish to build houses in the area in question are prevented from doing so because of the lack of a water supply scheme and it is also inhibiting the development of industries. Letterkenny is another area that is developing rapidly but progress is being impeded because development work needs to be carried out on the water supply. Extra money should be given for this project.

Much has been said about the bad state of our roads but we know that with the volume of traffic it is inevitable that maintenance of the roads network may deteriorate. It is important that the national primary routes, the secondary national roads and county roads should get priority in order to keep up the standard of maintenance and development. I was surprised to hear some of the contributions of Opposition Deputies because one would assume from their remarks that during the term of office of the National Coalition money was readily available for the development of the roads. So far as Donegal County Council were concerned, the total allocation to them in 1973-74 was £848,000; for nine months in 1974 it was £769,000; in 1975 it was £981,730; in 1976 it was £1,061,000; in 1977 it was £1,781,989; in 1978 it was £1,955,000; in 1979 it was £3,337,000 and in 1980 it was £2,348,000. When the Coalition Government were in office work on the national primary route in Donegal virtually came to a standstill. In 1977 when Fianna Fáil came into power they allocated the highest amount ever for work on the national primary route and in 1979, because of the very large amount allocated for road work, Donegal County Council had the largest number of workmen employed than ever before.

I should like to impress on the Minister the importance of developing the road network in Donegal. That county is remote from the rest of the country and, because of its geographical situation, it has certain difficulties. We are faced with the problem, too, of attracting industry to the county and to this extent the road system militates against us. It is important, too, from a tourist point of view that there is a satisfactory network and this is an important aspect also in terms of the development of the county as a whole. However, without the necessary moneys we are not in a position to bring our roads up to the necessary standard.

We have never been compensated adequately for the loss of our railways. I understand that when the rail system was being discontinued there was an indication that extra moneys would be provided for roadworks, for the provision of a proper road network in the county and out of the county into other areas of the country. I would refer here to the cross-Border study which was undertaken by the Donegal, Derry and Strabane Councils and in which I have been involved actively since its establishment. This communication study has pointed the way forward in relation to the needs of the county. In the Six Counties there is a motorway from Derry to the port of Larne. It would be very much to the advantage of our county if there was a link up from the Bridgend side through to Ballyshannon and on to Letterkenny. If such a national primary route were completed it would be of immense value to the county. As moneys become available I urge the Minister to ensure that there is not any hold back in that development.

Local authority employment is very important. It may be that because there are cut-backs this year local authority workers will be laid off. At least these are the indications from the county council officials but I would ask the Minister to endeavour to ensure that this will not happen having regard to the scarcity of employment in our county and to the consequent dependence on local authority employment by many families.

The only other point I should like to make relates to the low-rise mortgage scheme. This is a scheme that should be encouraged in every way possible. Local authorities should advertise the scheme and should be prepared to facilitate as many people as possible who wish to avail of the scheme and thereby to provide themselves with homes.

Listening to the Opposition one might be forgiven for getting the impression that when they were in office everything in the garden was rosy whereas that was far from being the situation. The Minister has a very responsible and an onerous job but we are satisfied that he is pursuing the policy as laid down by this party in 1977 and that he will ensure that these policies will continue to be developed.

Deputy Fergus O'Brien.

I am not disputing your right to call Deputy O'Brien but I would point out that I was sitting here when you were in the Chair last, that I have sat here during Deputy Tully's contribution and during Deputy Griffin's contribution. I am an ex-Minister and served in the Custom House. When I learned that this debate was about to take place I wrote to the Chief Whip of Fine Gael informing him of my wish to participate in the debate and he replied to the effect that I could follow Deputy Fitzpatrick.

I am sorry, but I have called Deputy O'Brien.

Perhaps Deputy L'Estrange might be sent for to clear up this matter.

As the two Deputies who are offering are from the same party they should be able to make up their minds. The Chair has no particular precedent in this matter but it is usual to give precedence to a spokesman and Deputy O'Brien is the spokesman on urban affairs.

But, unfortunately, the situation is that I was informed by the Chief Whip that I could follow Deputy Fitzpatrick. That is why I came to Dublin today.

So far as the Chair is aware there is not any note to that effect from the Chief Whip.

Would the Chair be prepared to send for Deputy L'Estrange?

The Chair must call Members as they offer. I must warn the House that the Minister is being called at 3.15 p.m.

On foot of a letter that I received from the Chief Whip of this party I came to Dublin today especially for this debate. He told me in the Dáil restaurant that I could follow Deputy Fitzpatrick on the Vote. Otherwise, I could have been doing other parliamentary work.

The Chair has no say in this matter.

Perhaps the problem would be resolved by each speaker offering being allowed to speak for ten minutes only.

That would be a matter for the House.

Is it true to say that an arrangement has been made whereby the Minister for the Environment gets in to reply to this debate at 3.15 p.m.?

There is an order of the House——

If that is so, I want to say I was not a party to any such arrangement——

Would the Deputy let me answer the question?

I came here to day to speak on this important Estimate. I had a speech prepared for this purpose. I have a right to be heard here. I was not consulted about this arrangement. I protest about it and demand that the Whips be called together.

Deputy Treacy, please.

It is disgraceful that the most important Estimate in this House, that of the Department of the Environment, should be rushed through in this disgraceful fashion.

Deputy Treacy, please.

I protest in the strongest possible terms. I ask that the Whips be called together to annul this disgraceful arrangement which seeks to gag Members of the House in speaking on an important issue of this kind.

Deputy Treacy, please; Deputy Treacy was in the Chair——

The Whips did not speak for me and I reject this arrangement as completely out of order. It is a negation of democracy and of our right to be heard here——

Deputy Treacy, please.

I ask the Minister to allow this debate to continue, as is the right of Members and not to seek to curtail it at 3.15 p.m.

Deputy Treacy was in the Chair——

We have a right to debate it. I spent some time in the Custom House and I have a right to get heard also——

Let the Whips be called together——

Would Deputies please allow the Chair to speak.

——even if there was an arrangement.

The Deputies' own Whips made it, their leaders made it.

Sorry, Deputy Treacy.

Certainly not. I did not agree to it. I never would agree to it.

(Interruptions.)

Deputies, please. Deputy Treacy was in the Chair for a long period——

I was and I never tolerated a gag on members as there is in this instance.

Deputy Treacy understands better than anybody in this House that the Chair does not have to tolerate anything. The Chair carries out the decisions of the House. There was an Order of the House by full agreement, without any dissent, this morning that the Minister would be called at 3.15 p.m. to reply to the debate. The Chair knows nothing about how that decision——

Members were not consulted.

The Chair knows nothing about how that arrangement was reached. It has nothing to do with the Chair. The Chair carries out the decisions of the House and nothing else.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, can the Chair——

It makes a mockery of this House.

I served in the Custom House with Deputy Tully and I am interested in contributing to the debate. When I saw this Estimate on the Order Paper. I wrote to the Party Whip who told me I could follow Deputy Fitzpatrick. What has happened to prevent me from participating in the debate? I have been sitting here since the Minister spoke this morning.

The Chair has had no intimation at all—I called Deputy F. O'Brien who also offered earlier this morning——

I am a former Minister, I was a Member of the last Government——

The Chair's precedent, if there is such in that matter, is to call spokesmen and Deputy O'Brien is a spokesman. Deputy O'Brien to continue the debate——

Let me inform the chair that my Party Whip agreed that I should be the next Labour speaker on this Estimate. I prepared a speech and I understood my time was 41 minutes. I want to avail of that opportunity.

The Chair can do nothing about this. There was an order of the House this morning. Deputy Treacy understands the position better than anybody. The Chair is not involved in decisions between the parties.

Surely the Chair can protect Members and give them their rights? That is all we are looking for.

Deputy Fergus O'Brien.

We cannot allow this Estimate to be discharged in this disgraceful fashion. Let the Whips be called into this House.

That is up to the Deputies themselves. Deputy Fergus O'Brien.

Let this order be annulled as undemocratic, a negation of freedom of speech in this House.

I call for a quorum. Perhaps, when we have a quorum, we can deal with this matter.

This is a disgraceful performance.

Absolutely.

I am 37 years a Member of this House and I have never experienced anything like this before.

It is certainly a disgraceful performance by Deputies——

(Interruptions.)

Deputies, the Chair——

May I appeal to the Minister for the Environment, in the interest of free speech, not to attempt to conclude this debate at 3.15 p.m. to allow Members of this House indicate their views on this matter?

The Chair was informed that quorums would not be called for on a Friday. The Chair has already been informed of that.

Will he allow——

Can arrangements be made to send for Deputy L'Estrange?

That is up to the Deputy himself. I am not sending for Deputy L'Estrange.

Deputy McMahon will go for Deputy L'Estrange.

(Interruptions.)

Let whoever likes go for him. The Chair must continue the business of the House. Deputy Fergus O'Brien was in possession.

Perhaps Deputy O'Brien would be good enough not to proceed until Deputy L'Estrange arrives.

I have called Deputy O'Brien and if he does not proceed, I will call somebody else. Deputy Fergus O'Brien.

Is this not an arrangement that nobody in this House could condone—an Estimate of the importance of the Department of the Environment being rushed through this House denying all of us an opportunity of speaking on it?

The Chair has absolutely nothing to do with the arrangement.

It is unheard of. It is undemocratic——

The last man in this House who should question the Chair is Deputy Treacy. He knows that better than anybody else.

It is because I was the upholder of the rights of Members of this House to speak that I do so now——

The Chair does not make those decisions——

——and I will defend it now from the Opposition benches. This Estimate cannot go through today. This Estimate must not be allowed through today. This Estimate must be debated.

Please, Deputies. Deputy Fergus O'Brien.

This is an effort to make a whole farce of this House and I object very strongly to it.

It is the Whips who make decisions. The Chair does not make decisions. Deputy Fergus O'Brien.

The Whips can annul that decision.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Treacy knows that better than anybody else. There was a unanimous order of the House and——

Would the Minister desist from replying to this debate today?

The Deputy does not know what he is doing.

I do not know what I am doing. I am asserting my right to speak in this House on an important issue.

(Interruptions.)

There is no "please" about it at all. I want to make a contribution to this debate. I served in the Custom House and I am entitled to do so.

The Deputy can raise it elsewhere. There was a decision of the House this morning that the Minister would be called at 3.15 p.m., a unanimous decision. Deputy Fergus O'Brien, please.

I am rather disappointed with this Vote, particularly——

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, may I ask Deputy L'Estrange what has happened to the orderly arrangement whereby I had his approval to speak after Deputy Fitzpatrick?

——a Vote in the amount of £275 million, an increase of £20 million——

Let Deputy O'Brien continue.

On a point of order, I request that the meeting of the Whips be reconvened for the purpose of annulling the order of today which denies us the right to speak on this fundamental Estimate. I demand that the meeting of the Whips be reconvened for that purpose.

Deputy Fergus O'Brien is in possession.

Surely we are not going to be denied the right to participate in this debate?

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I would ask if you would give some consideration to the difficulty we seem to have got ourselves into. I, too, would like to lodge my protest at this Estimate going through in one day. I have waited many months to make a contribution to this debate. I would appeal to the Chair to have some consultation with the Whips——

(Interruptions.)

Deputies, please, there is no use——

——to allow this debate to go on.

Deputy McMahon, the Chair is not involved in this matter at all.

The Deputy is being very disloyal to his own Whip.

I am simply——

This is a disgraceful arrangement, not in keeping with the spirit of this House. We cannot condone it. We will not condone it.

It cannot be condoned.

Deputy Fergus O'Brien.

I was the upholder of freedom of speech in this House when I was in that Chair and I am doing it now from the Opposition benches. Let the House be adjourned and, on reconvening, annul this order.

As a former occupant of the Chair, Deputy Treacy should not create that type of disorder. No Member knows better than he that once an order of the House is made it is up to the Chair to carry it out.

I have a right to speak in this Assembly. We are being muzzled.

An effort is being made to prevent me from speaking on this Estimate. I should have been called on by the Chair because I was sitting in the Chamber when Deputy Fergus O'Brien passed along the corridor. I should like to lodge a serious protest.

The House should not continue without a quorum being called.

The Chair was notified that there was an agreement reached that a quorum would not be called on a Friday.

Would the Chair have consultations with the Whips so that it can be arranged to give another day to the debate on this Estimate?

That can be decided outside the Chamber. The Chair must carry out the order of the House.

The Chair would enable us to decide it if the House was adjourned.

The Fine Gael Whip is in the House and the Deputy should consult him.

The whole thing is farcical.

As public representatives we are entitled to contribute to this debate.

The Whips worked very hard to get the Friday sittings. In fairness to every Member we agreed on certain procedures. We are not getting any advantage from this.

These proceedings are designed to muzzle this side of the House. That is not on. We will not stand for it.

This is an effort to deprive Members of the right to speak.

The three main parties agreed on this procedure. I should like to ask the Fine Gael Members to allow one of their own Members to speak.

Once again I shall try to make my contribution to this debate.

The House should not continue without a quorum being called.

I agree with what has been stated by Deputy Moore. For years many Estimates were not discussed. We managed to discuss only two or three Estimates with the result——

Is the Deputy suggesting that they are being discussed now?

——that millions of pounds was being passed at the end of the year in less than one hour. A lot of those who are so vocal now were not so vocal then. In an effort to have Estimates discussed here we agreed to allocate ten Fridays for discussions on them. The first Estimate discussed was a very important one but the debate fell through after about three hours. In order to discuss as many Estimates as possible between now and 27 June we agreed to allocate one full day to each Estimate. The charge made by Deputy Flanagan against me is an internal matter. I told him I would make an effort to get him time to contribute but I did not say that he would be the second speaker for Fine Gael because at that time I had the names of Deputies Fitzpatrick and Fergus O'Brien. The Whips have agreed to that position.

I should like to refresh Deputy L'Estrange's memory.

The Deputy can do that outside the Chamber.

This is the place to do it. In the Dáil restaurant last week he told me I could follow Deputy Fitzpatrick. I came to town with a speech prepared and I sat waiting for the Chair to call me. This is a most disgraceful performance.

I am surprised at the carry-on here today. This agreement was made and we must abide by it.

I am not concerned with any agreements but with the Order of the House. Deputy Fergus O'Brien is in possession.

The Labour Whip made an agreement that I would be allowed to speak for 45 minutes on this Estimate today.

The Labour Whip is not here to confirm that.

He should be. Is it seriously suggested that we should dispose of the Estimate for the Department of the Environment after two speakers from each side have contributed?

The Deputy is the last person who should try to prevent Deputy O'Brien from making his contribution. I have my opinion on all these things but I do not have any say in the matter because the order was made in the House this morning.

Will the Chair give a guarantee that I will be the next Fine Gael Member to be called?

The Chair will not give a guarantee on anything. The Chair is not here to give guarantees.

The Chair is making a farce of this.

I will be calling the Minister at 3.15 p.m., in accordance with the order made this morning. The Deputy is ensuring by his interruptions that very few other speakers will have an opportunity to contribute.

In view of the dissatisfaction about this arrangement would the Minister be big enough to allow his Estimate to be debated next week?

The Minister does not have any say in the matter. It was an order of the House.

And the House endorsed our action.

This arrangement is utterly unsatisfactory.

It may be but the Whips agreed to it.

It is an effort to kill democratic debate.

It is the Fine Gael Members who are falling out amongst themselves.

The Chair should like to tell all Members that the time to have objected to this was when the order was unanimously made this morning. This protest should have been raised then instead of harassing the Chair in this fashion. The Chair does not have the slightest say in this matter and no Member knows that better than Deputy Treacy.

I came to an arrangement last week with Deputy L'Estrange.

We only learned about this matter this morning. Yesterday the arrangement was different. The new arrangement was made without consultation with us.

The remarks of the Chair are grossly unfair because last week we concluded a two-day debate on the Estimate for Education. The same should apply to the Environment and we expected it would.

That is a matter for the Deputy's own side.

We had a two-day debate on the Estimate for Education.

The Deputy is holding up the work of the House.

The spectacle of three Fine Gael Members on their feet at the same time is disgraceful.

We are seeking our democratic right.

There is little democracy in Fine Gael.

The Deputy has enough to worry about on his side of the House.

I should like to protest strongly at this procedure. The Chair was aware that I was waiting longer than any Member to get in on the debate and that I had preference over any other Member as an ex-Minister and as one who served under Deputy Tully in the Custom House.

That is fair enough. The Deputy has registered his protest and now I am calling Deputy Fergus O'Brien.

We have noted the Deputy's protest.

The Deputy should get Deputy L'Estrange to note it also.

It appears that I will not be permitted to contribute to the debate because the Minister will be called upon to reply at 3.15 p.m. That is a disgraceful procedure. It is making a farce of Dáil Éireann.

In view of the strong protests made about the arrangement operating here today and in view of the obligation devolving on the Chair to ensure that every Member is given the right to speak and ventilate his views on behalf of the people who sent him here does the Chair agree that this matter be deferred? Does the Chair agree that this Estimate should not be closed down this evening and that Members be given an opportunity of contributing next week?

The Deputy should be given a soap box.

The Deputy is stooping low when he goes to that stage. As I stated, nobody knows better than the Deputy that the Chair carries out the orders of the House and nothing else. If the Chair decided these things they might be done differently but the Chair has no authority to change an order of the House.

When it is shown to the Chair that the overwhelming concensus of the House is against that arrangement then the Chair has an obligation to act.

We have wasted 20 minutes so far.

The Chair does not have any right to change an order of the House.

Surely the Chair has a right to protect Members and see to it that they are given an opportunity of making their contributions.

The Chair cannot overrule an order of the House.

This is a disgrace in a national parliament.

Surely the Chair will agree that any parliament behind the Iron Curtain would get better facilities to speak than we have been given on this. I register a very strong protest——

The Chair is doing nothing about it.

There is no point in protesting to the Chair because he cannot do anything about it.

(Interruptions.)

What the Deputy is trying to do now is get me to adjourn the House. I have no intention of doing that.

I know that and that is why the Chair is part of this farce.

As regards that kind of charge against the Chair, when it is carrying out the orders of the House, if Deputy Flanagan has any accusation or allegation to make there is a Committee on Procedure and Privileges in existence and he should take it there and see if the Chair is carrying out the orders of the House or not. It is the House that makes the decisions and not the Chair.

Does the Chair agree with this decision of the House?

It does not matter whether I do or not. It is a decision of the House and I have no say in it.

On this Estimate——

Might I further ask——

Would the Deputy allow his colleague to proceed?

It is a specific request.

An effort should be made to ensure that we are permitted to debate this important Estimate.

The Deputy should let his own colleague speak.

Fianna Fáil are protecting their own skins. I am not surprised that the Minister of State, Deputy Burke, has come in to ensure that it is not debated.

Would the Minister agree not to move the closure of the motion today? Would the Minister defer his right?

The Minister has no say in it.

The House could agree now.

It cannot. The House has already decided——

We could have another day on it.

I appeal to both Deputies to show some respect for the House. The Whips agreed with me on procedure——

It is because we have respect for the House that we are on our feet.

An effort is being made to turn Parliament into a farce.

The Deputy is making a great job of it.

The House agreed——

The Chair has no intention of adjourning the House. I will call the Minister at 3.15 p.m. Even if he only gets two minutes I will put the vote and that will be that.

Why is it that we have two days to debate one Department and one day to debate another?

That is not a matter for the Chair.

Surely it is the kernel of the matter.

(Interruptions.)

There was an unanimous order by the House this morning that the Minister would be called at 3.15 p.m. There was no dissenting voice from any side of the House——

We were not informed of it.

That order is being carried out by the Chair as it is the Chair's job to do.

We were not consulted about it.

(Interruptions.)

I would never have agreed to it.

If the Deputy attended his party meeting he would know.

Would the Chair advise me on how I am going to deal with the local authority and housing problems of my constituency if I cannot do it here?

Deputy O'Brien is in possession.

Could the Chair give me any advice?

The Chair would hate to try and give advice to Deputy Flanagan and is sure it would not be accepted if it did.

I would be grateful to accept advice and guidance from the Chair.

I am asking for respect for the decisions of the House.

Would the Minister agree not to close this debate by replying at 3.15 p.m.

The Deputy is behaving disgracefully.

The Deputy did not always uphold the democracy of the Chair.

I upheld it to the letter.

The last man to criticise the Chair should be Deputy Treacy.

I am not criticising the Chair but the procedure of the House.

The Deputy is criticising Deputy Desmond.

This Estimate——

Before Deputy O'Brien makes his speech can the Chair call on the Minister for the Environment to give an undertaking that he will not conclude the debate today but will come back again on another day?

The Minister cannot do that. The House decided it and not the Minister. The House decided on something this morning and the Chair must carry it out whether it likes it or not.

It is no wonder the public are losing confidence in and respect for the House.

The Deputy should blame his own party.

Free speech is being denied in a freely elected assembly. It is making a joke of a democratic parliament.

Perhaps the older Deputy would let the younger Deputy speak.

This vote is a very disappointing one and the amount of money——

Before the Deputy commences, as a protest against a breach of an agreement made with me and as a protest against this assembly being turned into a laughing stock and a farce, I am leaving the House.

By the Deputy's own free will.

Does the Deputy promise never to come back?

What does the Deputy mean "never come back"? An effort is being made to muzzle Deputies and the House is being turned into a laughing stock and a farce. It is no wonder people are losing confidence in it. Free speech will not last too long outside when it is denied here.

The Deputy and I have been here long enough and talked more than our share in the House. Now we will carry out the decisions of the House.

It is generally agreed that the decision on such an important Estimate as Environment was a mistake and we are seeking to correct it.

It cannot be corrected now.

The Minister can correct it.

He has no power to do so.

It was an unanimous agreement of the three Whips.

Have it out with Deputy Desmond.

Deputy O'Brien is in possession and will now make his contribution.

This vote is for £275 million, an increase of £20 million over last year's amount. Given the rate of inflation it should not be an increase of £20 million but of £55 million to ensure that we maintain the same services as we maintained last year. There was a decline in services last year, so on a £20 million increase this year there will be dramatic reductions in spending by the Department of the Environment.

Listening to the last speaker one would have thought that the Government abolished rates. If one listens to one's own propaganda for long enough, one tends to believe it and that is what happened in this case. It is known who was responsible for abolishing rates. I am concerned about the ceilings imposed on local authorities. They are serious. The ceiling last year was 11 per cent and this year it is 10 per cent. I am not talking about ceilings on rates but on expenditure. This will mean dramatic cut-backs and, given wage increases and expenditure generally, there will be a dramatic cut-back on local authority spending. Within the whole area of local authorities I can see a diminution of power.

Does this attitude mean the demise of local authorities? If local authorities have not the power or the necessary finance to carry out the day to day running of their affairs, if they are in the stranglehold of the Department of the Environment, we are paying only lip service to the idea of a local authority.

In this Estimate there is no indication whatsoever of intended reform in the whole local authority area, which argurs badly for the future of democracy at local authority level. We must get some inkling from the Minister of the proposals he is to put before this House in the area of local authority reform. Larger cities have overlapping, great expansion and new towns, but with regard to the local authority area, nothing is happening. If this is allowed to develop it will surely mean the end of local democracy. We should be encouraging people to involve themselves much more in the area of local autonomy and local democracy—not centralising the power in central government but instead fanning that power right throughout the whole country. This Estimate does not erase any of my fears and this whole area of local authorities and local democracy is very much in doubt. I hope that the Minister will allay any fears, but there is nothing in this fairly large brief which would give that impression.

I am glad that a council has been set up to advise on enviromental matters. It is very important that we monitor our environment and the quality of life around us. Environmental issues are basically the responsibility of the local authority. However, if we restrict their funds, treatment of environmental questions will suffer.

There were 200 people employed in environmental schemes within the Dublin Corporation who were under threat of dismissal. It was only because of pressure that funds were found elsewhere and made available. These people were doing very useful environmental work and it is important that such work should continue. There is not much point in setting up environmental councils and reading reports unless the relevant local authorities are given the necessary finance and staff to implement the recommendations of these councils. We tend to get a fair amount of reports but what we basically need is action.

There are many environmental problems, of which air pollution is one, particularly in our larger cities. It is very important that something be done to tackle this problem. I have put down questions to the Minister. Apparently, we are waiting until we are literally forced by the EEC to take action, and that is not good enough. Buses and major transport hauliers' vehicles are polluting the atmosphere. One has only to walk through the towns and cities to see the effects of this, but no action appears to be about to be taken. We are awaiting EEC directives, perhaps until 1983, before action is taken. There is a lack of commitment if we must be pressurised into doing something. That is not the best way to deal with the question of pollution and would make us a rather irrelevant group here. Our Department of the Environment should be forcing through policies, particularly in regard to air pollution, which is very serious in the highly built-up urban areas.

Another hazard is the lead content in petrol. Other countries in Europe have taken action on this, but we have not. Have we to be forced into taking action? It has been medically proved that lead poisoning can affect the brains of children, which is a very serious matter. How seriously are we taking it? We are not taking it seriously at all. One doctor has said that there is a greater potential for getting cancer by walking down Grafton Street than by smoking cigarettes, because of the pollution there from heavy traffic. There is no point in having a public relations exercise on cigarette smoking unless we follow the thing right through and get a clean environment.

Adding to this air pollution problem is the effect of the oil crisis. People are being forced back onto solid fuel, which will cause substantially more air pollution. This must be monitored to ensure that it does not get out of control. I trust that the Minister will have effective solutions for these very serious problems. The cost in deteriorating health, in lung and respiratory infections, is colossal. I do not have the figures, but they could be costed. The cost of health should not be weighted against the economic situation. I call on the Minister to take action here.

In the Estimate there is a small item regarding litter. We should take this seriously. Our cities and towns, but particularly our cities, are disgraced with grafitti scrawled on buildings and general waste thrown around. The only way to deal with this nuisance is by imposing heavy fines. We have far too few litter wardens in our city and we cannot therefore control the situation. The Minister must make money available to employ litter wardens, to strengthen the by-laws in that respect and to have heavier fines imposed to ensure that people who indulge in throwing litter about pay for it. Education does help. The corporation have spent quite a lot of money on advertising with a view to keeping the various towns and cities clean. Anyone walking down a main or side street today would realise that this has achieved very little. We should be thoroughly ashamed of ourselves at the way we despoil our towns and cities. If the educational and the soft approach do not work it is up to the Minister if he is serious—and I think he is—when he puts this subject into his brief, that he should take effective action and impose fines. There are countries which impose fines, and it does work. A fine would have a salutory effect on people who want to engage in that type of thing. There is not much point in the Minister mentioning litter in his brief and talking about it, if he is not serious. Positive action is required.

There is only one page in the Minister's brief about the building industry. One would get the impression from that that everything in the garden is rosy. Obviously the people who put the brief together did not read the Irish Independent on Wednesday morning where there was an article by Mr. Reynolds of the Construction Industry Federation which spelt out gloom. He would be friendly towards the Government. When he stands up and makes a case like that obviously things are serious. I believe the building industry is in for a hard time because of the Government's inability to control the very high interest rates. The building industry is declining. If positive steps are not taken to rescue it there will be unemployment in that industry. It is quite clear the Minister is out of touch with what is happening.

Housing is very important in any community. It is important that houses are available and that people are in a position to buy their own houses. The price of houses has escalated in recent years. A loan this year is 24 per cent in excess of a loan last year, when the figure was very high. The Minister said that the cost of any type of house now is over £20,000. When one considers borrowing and repayments it makes it very hard for people to acquire their own homes. When one takes the SDA loan of £12,000 into consideration and the Minister's admission of £20,000 being the cheapest house at the moment, it means that after the grant of £1,000 is taken into consideration a person buying a house has to find £7,000 extra. On a £12,000 loan that person's repayments are £30 a week. If he has to borrow the £7,000 we are talking about another very sizeable sum in repayments. If such a person earns more than £100 a week he does not qualify for the SDA loan of £12,000. A person earning £100 a week will have a take home pay of only £80 a week when one takes income tax and all the other deductions into consideration. When he has the repayments made he has very little left to keep body and soul together.

It is time the Minister looked at the whole area of housing. If he is encouraging people to come off the waiting list and buy their own homes he should make it attractive for them. The Minister says he will encourage low rise mortagages. The only way he can do that is by making it easier for people to get them. In order to get one a person must be married and must have a child aged one year, he must be on the housing list, he must be living in over-crowded conditions and so forth. If a person has an income of less than £5,000 and is married he should qualify for the low rise mortage. Building societies will not want to know people with money like that, so such a person will not be able to go to a building society. The low rise mortagage scheme was a very good scheme when it devised but, like all schemes, it needs to be revised upwards from time to time. The Minister should be able to tell us that those low rise mortagages will be given to all married people once they qualify on income limits. He would then get more people wanting to acquire houses of their own.

At the moment we are getting more and more people on the local authority housing list. This requires further money from the Government to build houses. It is economically sound to increase the low rise mortagage for the people I am talking about. If people want to buy their own homes and there are stone walls every place they look they will be forced on to the local authority housing lists. Many of them are being forced into very bad substandard accommodation and marriages are put at risk. We must examine the funding of loans to people and we must make them attractive to the low income groups to acquire homes of their own. It is dreadful to think of the lack of commitment of the Government to housing. The cost of what I am asking is infinitesimal but the benefits are great.

One of the biggest mistakes made in relation to housing was the removal of the improvement grants. This is a retrograde step. The sum of money was not very great but it was an encouragement. The grant to convert oil central heating systems into solid fuel was a gimmick and was a mistake. In rectifying that mistake the Minister penalised everybody by wiping out the whole grants system. I do not know how the Minister can justify not giving a grant to people whose homes have no bathrooms or indoor toilets. The Minister should make a grant of £1,000 not just £600 to such people so that they can bring their houses up to an appropriate standard. House improvement grants are also necessary for people whose houses are very old. These houses will deteriorate if people are not given some incentive to repair them. Given the cost of replacing housing it is obvious that it is necessary to preserve our existing stock. Because of a miserable £600 the Minister has wiped out the grants. Those grants did not provide any great assistance but at least they gave the incentive to get the necessary jobs done and to make property good for another 50 years anyway. This step will hasten urban blight. One has only to walk around the cities to see how sad this is. I appeal to the Minister to have another look at this and if money is scarce at least to reintroduce the grants for people without bathrooms and indoor toilets and people who really need grants.

The Minister tackled the problem of local authority rents very badly. I came across a case recently of a man who lived in one room in a sub-standard 100 years old house and sharing a toilet, who had had a rent increase of £1.50 similar to the rent increase of a person in a four-roomed apartment. An across the board rent increase is not right. The rent of some accommodation which is due to be demolished has also been increased. Rent has been increased for accommodation that is admitted to be unfit for human habitation. How can the Minister stand over that? The Minister should have another look at this also and rectify any anomalies. A reasonable rent increase is expected given the rise in costs but a blanket increase is wrong. The Minister said that no tenant should be required to pay a rent greater than he can reasonably afford but who is to determine what a person can reasonably afford? The Minister should do something to ensure that we do not have a further rent strike as such an occurrence can walk people into a lot of problems.

Our roads are in a disgraceful condition. They are quite dangerous and the number of potholes has become a music hall joke. If the roads are allowed to continue to deteriorate at the present rate the cost of repairing them will be astronomical.

The Deputy has five minutes.

The Minister when talking about the inner city of Dublin referred to the problem of deterioration and social deprivation and to an inter-departmental committee which made a lot of recommendations. The Minister is more or less responsible for them. An allocation of £1 million was made to assist projects approved by the group but this year that £1 million was not granted. There is nothing in the Estimate apparently for the inner city except a few well chosen words. The Minister said that it is his intention that special funds allocated to the group should be used to assist projects which would be seen to be for the rehabilitation of the area. There is no point in talking about £1 million for rehabilitation because vast sums of money are required. The Minister should assign one of his Ministers to deal with this whole area, as at present it comes within the ambit of various Departments, the Department of Education, the Department of Justice and so on.

I wonder if this is further procrastination on the part of the Minister in relation to inner city renewal. There is nothing here to help the inner city. The report of the inter-departmental committee contained many suggestions. Let the Minister implement them and if his Department are not involved he should instruct whichever Department are responsible to implement them. There is no point in talking about setting up groups and task forces and saying the money will be available. We know what is required, let us do it. Let us monitor the position every quarter to see what is happening. At the moment nothing is happening. The inner city area has been neglected and will continued to be neglected because the Government have not the will to do something about it.

All I see is that the amount of £1 million allocated last year is not allocated this year and there is no other special fund. This is a very disquieting feature of the Estimate. I hope that the Minister will take positive steps because unless he does the situation regarding this inner city deprivation with its social consequences is going to deteriorate. I have said this on other Estimates, but now the Minister seems to be claiming that he is going to be responsible for it and I am glad that we can pin it on one Minister. We can monitor what he does in this area. A lot of resources, both financial and others, are required to tackle this problem. I have not yet seen any sign of an attempt to tackle it. They will play around with it for as long as they can but I will be keeping a close eye on this and in so far as I can, I will push the Minister into taking some action in this area.

I do not want to dwell on the incident that occured just before Deputy O'Brien spoke, but I resent the performance of Deputy Flanagan——

The Deputy has 13 minutes to make his contribution.

That is the time that this House decided unanimously that I would be entitled to. What has happened to Fine Gael and Labour? Where is their leader? Is there a leader wandering around the country, meeting the school children of Ireland——

We have disposed of that and we will deal with the Estimate for the few minutes the Deputy has.

Is the Deputy saying he is happy about the farce that happened here today?

I have not as long as I had anticipated or hoped to have. When the leaders of the parties are not in the House where their own Deputies divide and dispute the democratic decisions of this House reached unanimously——

The Deputy will speak on the Estimate for the few minutes he has.

——it is a disgraceful performance——

I could not agree more.

——on the part of Deputy Treacy and Deputy Flanagan.

The Deputy has a hard neck.

As a nation——

A lot the Deputy knows about democracy.

Deputy Andrews, without interruption.

For a Deputy who spent four years in the Chair that was a disgraceful remark. It was most unbecoming of a former Ceann Comhairle of this House.

Fianna Fáil got rid of their leader very quickly and he did more for the country than anyone else.

(Interruptions.)

I heard it over the intercom.

I never curtailed the Deputies in this House and I never will.

I was glad to hear Deputy O'Brien speak in terms of pollution, atmospheric pollution, water pollution and on on. We are probably one of the most wrapped-up nations in the world today. People like Smurfit would not have survived in this country 30 years ago because sugar was delivered without packaging, butter was delivered without packaging and so on. In 30 years we have reached the stage of wrapping everything, but what do we do with the wrappings? We litter the streets of Ireland with tin cans, sweetpapers and every conceivable disposable item. We destroy our beaches with broken glass bottles and tin cans. We injure people with litter. Probably we are the most untidy nation in the world, certainly in the developed world. In our haste to provide work for our people through rapid industrial growth we are inclined to ignore how quickly we are setting about destroying our lakes, rivers, towns and streets and the countryside generally.

It is not simply a question of the industrialists destroying the atmosphere and our surroundings in their anxiety to provide new jobs. One of the worst examples of agricultural pollution can be found in Lough Sheelin. I am glad that the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry, Deputy Power, is taking an interest here and has given a commitment on behalf of this Government to provide relief to Lough Sheelin through a different outlet for the slurry which has polluted and almost destroyed that lake. The people who brought this matter to our attention and who campaigned in the interest of freeing Lough Sheelin from slurry pollution have my congratulations. How many more rivers and lakes are being destroyed by our own carelessness?

I accept that we have no tradition in environment. We have accepted our environment over the years as a natural thing but we must recognise the difficulties that an increased and better standard of living can bring. Increased hygiene brings the problems of pollution. The Minister dealt comprehensively with the environment and with the difficulties relating to it. He is aware of the necessity to make us all aware of the need to preserve our environment and he is committed to that. The Water Pollution Advisory Council have kept a very low profile in so far as information to the public is concerned. As the Minister said, they have distributed literature and so on in schools, industries and factories and they have done a relatively good job there. But have they ignored completely the facility offered to them by RTE to provide free public service announcements such as are provided for the National Road Safety Association and the Industrial Safety Association? We must make people more aware of their obligation to preserve the environmental health of this country. Each year we dispose of thousands upon thousands of tons of energy in our tipheads around the country. Dublin has run out of space and Dublin city and county are asking Wicklow to provide open space for tiphead facilities. The problem has reached a critical stage in Dublin city and county and it will not be long before we will not have any place to tip our waste and dispose of our rubbish. I suggest that we look at the possibility of burning that rubbish and thereby providing district heating to housing estates and public buildings around the city. If we can provide the capital outlay it would repay itself in three, four, five or six years' time. If we use industrial waste to reduce our imports of oil and other energy sources we could save as much as £60 million a year by so doing.

This is not necessarily an immediate problem or a problem for the Minister alone. It is a problem for the Minister for Energy, the Minister and the Government generally. There must be a crash programme to provide for the disposal of waste in a realistic way. I suggest we examine closely the possibility of industrial waste disposal by burning and from it providing district heating. An example at present in use is at Irish Ropes. In the few years they have had the heating system installed there to dispose of the waste from the factory they have saved costs in energy and paid for the equipment. It is time we looked into this matter very seriously. Dublin city and county no longer have the area available and we cannot infringe on Wicklow. I do not believe that is the answer and I support the people of Wicklow in objecting to the intrusion of Dublin city and county to dispose of their waste in this high amenity area, this beautiful county, I do not think we should tolerate it.

I heard Deputy Kelly this week refer to the state of our roads and I listened to Deputy Tully speak with tongue in cheek about the state of the roads. Our roads are as bad as anybody can see but we must look to the root cause of this. In my view we must look to four years of total neglect. One of the first things I said when I came in here——

A gross rate of 7½ per cent.

——was about the inheritance of a neglected national and primary road system, neglected by the Coalition. We watched the position for four years, people screaming for improvements. What did they get? They got nothing. Let me talk of the facts and figures. I will be very brief.

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy has only one minute to conclude.

Let me give Deputy L'Estrange the facts.

(Interruptions.)

Like Deputy Flanagan when he was disrupting the House and preventing me from speaking, Deputy L'Estrange is trying to do the same thing. Where is your leader? Looking for support?

Where is yours? Which of them is yours? Is it the man you kicked out or the man——

Why is he not doing his parliamentary duty? I am proud of our leader. He does his work for the country while your man is running around looking for cheap publicity.

He never gave a golden handshake that somebody connected with you got.

Please, Deputies. Deputy Andrews' time is almost up.

He puts his country first, his party second and himself third and he never got a golden handshake from anybody and does not want it. He never got a golden handshake——

Will Deputy L'Estrange allow Deputy Andrews to conclude?

——from anybody for £8,000 for wrecking the railways. My memory is good.

At this hour of the evening, would Deputy L'Estrange not shut up and allow business to continue? Deputy Andrews time is up.

The Deputy will not attack our leader.

No leader should be attacked.

I do not know where Deputy Garret FitzGerald——

We are not debating leaders and neither leader should be attacked in the House by any side of the House. We are dealing with the Estimate for the Department of the Environment and I am calling on the Minister to conclude.

Deputy Andrews will not even get injury time.

And he is not the only one being deprived of his rights in this House today.

Is it possible for me to be given ten or 15 minutes?

The Minister was to be called at 3.15 and the Chair is doing that. That is the Order of the House. We will not debate that all over again.

It is disgraceful that Deputies are to be muzzled in this way.

The extensive nature of these contributions emphasises the very important part the services provided under my Department play in the day-to-day life of the community and the major contribution they make to national economic and social advancement.

Deputy Fitzpatrick singled out the limit on rate poundage for special attention. I, in common with every Deputy, would like to see local authorities get more money for their services. Local authorities, like all other organs of the public service, have to be prepared to take a new look at their priorities and their expenditure patterns so as to make the best use of the resources available to them. Let me repeat that I do not regard the 10 per cent limit on rate poundages as being unduly restrictive. It has been suggested that local spending will be restricted to 10 per cent over last year's expenditure. Nothing could be further from the truth. Local rates are only one aspect of local authority finance. I dealt earlier in the day with the wide-ranging improvements that I expect to flow from the generous allocations made to the capital services provided by local authorities. On non-capital spending there is scope for considerable bouyancy due to increasing valuations, Government grants and other sources of income to local authorities.

For 1979 a limit of 10 per cent on rate poundage increases also applied. Taken together local authorities, because of the bouyancy factor I have mentioned were able to budget in total for a 17 per cent increase in current spending. The local rates estimates for 1980 have not all come in yet but the indications are that overall local authorities have found it possible again to budget for increases in current spending of close on 17 per cent above the 1979 level. This will enable local authorities to maintain their services at a satisfactory level during 1980 in many areas and to make significant improvements.

The effect of the limits on the freedom of local authorities was also mentioned today. I make no apology for the limits; I see them as essential to hold a reasonable balance between the needs of local authorities and the calls on the Exchequer to meet those needs. The limits also afford a measure of protection to shopkeepers, farmers and industrialists from excessive rate increases. The limit on rate poundages is a general one, and it leaves local authorities as free as they were before to order their priorities within the overall limit. This may mean some services may not develop as quickly as some people might like——

(Cavan-Monaghan): It is like taking exercise in a straightjacket.

——while other services will develop more quickly. It is too easy to attribute the unpopular decisions to the effects of overall rates limits. If the decisions of individual local authorities seem to some critics to hit particular services hard, it may well be that the cause lies not in any real shortage of money but in the way those local authorities order their own priorities.

That is disgraceful.

It is to that aspect that the critics should direct their attention.

That is most unfair. The Minister should not say that.

Deputies mentioned other ways of increasing local authority revenue, and I appreciate some of the suggestions made. Lotteries were mentioned. I have no objection in principle to the idea of lotteries being used to raise funds for local authorities. As the law stands at present, local authorities can benefit from lotteries operated by commercial concerns. Fermoy Urban District Council, for example, benefited from a local lottery which was run to provide funds, most of which went towards the local swimming pool. I understand that scheme fell through some years ago.

If local authorities are to operate a lottery, legislation will be required. However, lest anybody should think lotteries are the answer to all local authorities' financial ills, real or imagined, it is worth while putting the matter in proper perspective. For instance, the total amount of money accruing to hospital expenditure from the Hospitals Sweepstakes Trust is of the order of £2 million annually. When viewed against the estimated total current receipts of local authorities of £510 million from all sources in 1980, it must be obvious that lotteries do not offer the kind of scope for increasing significantly local authority receipts which some people seem to think they might offer.

Charges for the services local authorities provide were also mentioned. Local authorities already charge for several of the services they provide. These charges account for nearly one-fifth of their current receipts. The revenue under this heading derives from rents on dwellings let by local authorities, part of the proceeds of the sale of houses, housing loan repayments, water charges, and a variety of charges for other matters. My general policy on the matter of charges is that local authorities should be encouraged to maximise revenue from these sources, and seek to make charges as close as possible to the economic cost of providing this service in question.

The new rates.

To this end I have circulated the local authorities asking that they examine critically and review the level of the charges they make, and to report to me on the matter. At present I am examining the response to that circular.

Road grants were also mentioned. As I said in my opening speech, road grants totalling over £53 million have been allocated to local authorities this year, double the amount allocated in 1977 by the previous Government. By way of further comparison, since taking office less than three years ago, this Government have allocated road grants totalling £144 million, whereas in the three years from 1975-1977, the previous Government made grants totalling £68 million. Even when account is taken of inflation, it must be recognised that this Government's performance leaves no room for criticism by the Opposition.

One direct result of this increased investment in road works has been the upsurge in employment by the road authorities. In 1976, the average monthly employment of road workers was 9,540. Since 1977, the figure has increased substantially and, despite this year's financial restraints, I anticipate that the road programme for 1980 will absorb up to 11,000 road workers.

A number of Deputies commented on the present standard of the roads. The Government's commitment to the proper maintenance and improvement of the roads network can best be judged by the level of funds made available to the road authorities since this Government took office.

(Cavan-Monaghan): Can the Minister explain the condition of the roads? That is a fair question.

Legal responsibility for public roads is vested in the road authorities, and it is their statutory duty to maintain and improve the roads for which they are responsible——

(Cavan-Monaghan): Without money?

——in order to keep them fit for the traffic that uses them. While my Department reimburse a large proportion of the expenditure incurred on road works by way of annual road grants, nevertheless it is the road authorities who decide the extent of overall investment in the annual road works programme. It is estimated that the total expenditure on road works in 1979 amounted to £96.29 million, of which the local authorities expended more than 50 per cent from their own resources. Since the vast bulk of their investment is made in maintenance work, the condition of the public roads outside the national road network, for which I make available full cost maintenance grants, is dependent largely on the level of their funds, including the amount of their rate support grant——

(Cavan-Monaghan): Exactly.

——which they apportion to road works. In the case of the maintenance of the national roads, I have allocated grants totalling £9.3 million for work this year, which represents a generous contribution to national roads maintenance. As regards other roads, the funds available this year to road authorities from own resources, including the rate support grant and the general road grant, should be sufficient to enable them to carry out a satisfactory programme for the upkeep of the roads.

Deputy Fitzpatrick suggested there was nothing new in the Department of the Environment except the name. In my opening statement I referred to a number of areas in which there are new or extended initiatives in the environment sector. Before coming to those, I want to stress again that the re-naming of the Department does not mean that the position of local government has been supplanted in any sense from the point of view of its importance for the environment. On the contrary, it is precisely because of the links between local government and the environment, and the relevance to the environmental quality of so much of the Department's work, that a change in designation was made. I refer, for example, to the physical planning system which is of critical importance both for protection of the environment and for the improvement of the environment, as well as to the programmes for housing, roads, water, sewerage services and amenity work, all of which are important components of the environmental quality.

The main thrust of the Department's efforts in the future, as in the past, will be through the local government system. The traditional local government programmes in housing, sanitary services, amenities and so on will be a principal means of bringing improvements into physical surroundings. The need for vigilance on the part of local authorities in guarding the natural resources of water, air and land against pollution from the disposal of waste in its various forms is greater now than ever. It is my concern to see that local authorities will be equipped to play their full part in carrying out this task which I see as one of the most important and challenging of the tasks they have to face in this modern age.

It will also be part of my concern to promote programmes and projects for the protection and improvement of the environment. Local authorities have already done a great deal in this area through provision of swimming pools, libraries and amenities of various kinds, and despite financial difficulties the programme of financial support for works of environmental improvement carried out by local authorities is continuous and is being operated to increase substantially their capacity to improve local surroundings.

My Department's involvement in international environmental work, including the work of OECD and the Economic Commission of Europe, is continuing and will continue. Priority will continue to be given to work under the Action Programme on the Environment. It is the aim, within the resources available, to take part in and to support international co-operation on the protection of the international environment.

Deputy Fitzpatrick questioned my decision to postpone the prescribed period for the preparation of local authority estimates. Deputies know of the Government's action in abolishing rates on domestic and other properties. The State is a very big contributor to local authority finances. About £144 million was contributed in 1980 alone through the Agricultural Grant and the grant in lieu of domestic rates. Decisions affecting that contribution have to be made as part of the Government's general budgetary consideration. There could not be a guarantee that it would always be possible to notify local authorities of the decision affecting their rate levels in advance of the year to which their estimates would relate. However, without such information, local authorities could not be expected to give meaningful consideration to their estimates, and in these circumstances I thought it best to change the statutory period, and at least two thirds of all rating authorities requested an extension of the estimates period at the end of 1978 because of the practical problems of trying to operate within the then specified period.

(Cavan-Monaghan): They did not know what the grant would be.

The Deputy suggested that this would interfere with local authority work programmes, that local authorities would be short of money and so on. I am glad to be able to contradict these mistaken suggestions. In the first place, local authorities now have the power to spend up to half of anything they spend for any purpose in the preceding year in anticipation of their estimates. They are not legally restricted through their estimates not being adopted before the beginning of the year.

Secondly, the main work programmes of the local authorities are not normally commenced until well into the year, and therefore there can be little ground for suggesting that planning of work will be disrupted. Thirdly, in many cases the State meets up to 80 per cent of the rates-borne income of local authorities and on average meets 60 per cent. The late issue of demand notes for rates will not affect income from that source. The decision taken in that respect benefits local authorities because much more detailed consideration of the estimates and priorities is possible under the new arrangement.

Deputy Tully gave an example of a person building a house with an SDA loan. His lengthy explanation was incomplete in one serious respect. The Deputy should have been frank and said that between September 1973 and the change of Government, income and loan limits remained unchanged. During that period new house prices increased by 107 per cent and earnings by 102 per cent. In plain language, the Deputy, as Minister, was phasing out the SDA scheme altogether. If the Deputy wants the facts, expenditure on SDA loans dropped to £17 million in 1977 and last year it was £45 million. The number of loans paid increased from 4,800 to 6,200 in that period.

Deputy Tully said that certain social welfare payments previously assessed at 50 per cent for rent purposes are now being assessed in full. He should have been a little fairer. He did not say that in order to offset the effect of rent increases arising from this change, particularly in the lower income group, the rent fraction in the lower band of the graded scale has been reduced from one-twelfth to one-twentieth. He also omitted to say that in 1976 during his term he increased the proportion of assessable income in certain social welfare cases from 50 per cent to 100 per cent.

Which cases?

He also implied that people without central heating did not get grants from the scheme to reduce dependence on oil. This is not correct.

It is correct.

He was also wrong in alleging that there is discrimination against local authority tenants. Let me say categorically that the scheme did not make any distinction between local authority tenants and private householders.

If they re-apply will they be paid?

With regard to local improvement schemes, Deputy Fitzpatrick criticised the provision of £2 million for this year. During the period of the National Coalition Government of which he was a member the annual provision remained steady at £1 million, the same level of allocation as the year in which Fianna Fáil left office. The amount included in the Department's Estimate for 1977, when Deputy Tully was Minister, was £1 million. In that year, when Fianna Fáil were returned to Government, a Supplementary Estimate of more than £500,000 was introduced in July. In 1978 we provided £1.75 million, and to continue our efforts to reduce the backlog of applicants on the hands with the local authorities we provided £2¾ million.

(Cavan-Monaghan): Why was it cut back this year?

Having achieved the breakthrough in regard to the backlog, we again provided £2 million this year. Therefore, it should be clear that more importance has been attached to the LIS during our term in office than the term of the previous Government.

In regard to Deputy Fitzpatrick's reference to the Dublin civic offices at Wood Quay, the only direct function I have in regard to the provision of local authority office accommodation relates to the control of borrowing. Subject to this and any other approvals that may be required in particular cases, it rests with any local authority to decide on the planning and provision of their accommodation. In making such decisions, of course, local authorities are bound by whichever statutory provisions and legal commitments which may be relevant.

Deputies Fitzpatrick and Tully were critical of some aspects of local authority rents schemes. Before that scheme had been notified to local authorities, officers of my Department and I had a number of discussions with NATO representatives and officials of local authorities, in the course of which concessions were made in the original draft scheme. Apart from the Deputies' criticisms, I can state the reaction to the scheme by tenants and local authorities generally has been favourable. No tenant is asked to pay more than he can resonably afford or more than his house is worth. Deputy Tully hinted that NATO are contemplating a rent strike.

That is what they said in the newspapers.

I have no intimation to bear out the Deputy's suggestion. Perhaps he will remember that following the introduction of the 1979 rent scheme threats of a national rent strike were also circulated then.

(Cavan-Monaghan): There are such threats circulating now.

The threats evaporated last year because the strike notion got no support.

Did the Minister reach agreement with the NATO executive?

I had discussions with them and we reached agreement on many of the factors involved. Last year support for a strike was not forthcoming. Perhaps the Deputy is right in what he has said but I have no knowledge that a strike is to occur.

Much of Deputy Tully's criticism related to the level of provision for the various subventions and capital allocations by which my Department assist local authorities to provide services for which they are responsible such as housing, sanitary services, roads and so on. It is easy when in Opposition to ask for more but the only effective way to judge the sincerity of the Opposition in this matter is to look at the level of the financial provision they made available when they were in office and when they had the opportunity and responsibility to do their share. Facts speak louder than words. I am making this comparison not to side-track the question of the provisions made this year but to show how generous they are compared with what the Opposition considered sufficient when they were in office.

One has only to look at the Book of Estimates and the booklet setting out the public capital programme to see the staggering increases in the allocations since Fianna Fáil came into office. Expenditure on the Vote has risen from just under £58 million in 1976, the last full year of the term of office of the Coalition Government, to a figure of more than £275 million in the current Estimate. In the same period non-voted capital expenditure will increase from a little more than £130 million to almost £205 million. These figures demonstrate clearly the priority the Government attach to the services administered by my Department. The massive increase in voted moneys reflects not only the increased provisions for items that were in the Vote for 1976 but also the major new initiatives introduced since Fianna Fáil took office. The figures I have quoted relate to the overall financial position but if we look at the various individual services the picture is no less impressive.

Housing subsidy has increased from just more than £29 million in 1976 to more than £65 million this year. The provision in respect of private housing grants has increased from more than £6 million in 1976 to £23 million in 1980. Water and sewerage subsidy has increased from £5 million in 1976 to almost £12,500,000 in 1980. The provision for water and sewerage grants increased from £1 million in 1976 to £4 million. The grant in respect of relief of rates which now stands at more than £106 million did not exist in 1976.

On the non-voted capital side the figures are equally impressive. Capital for local authority housing construction has increased from a public capital programme provision of £65 million in 1976 to £97,750,000 in the current year. The public capital programme provision for water and sewerage schemes was £19 million in 1976 compared with £40 million in the current year. The public capital programme provision in 1976 for environmental services, including fire services, was £1,800,000 while the figure for this year is £7,700,000. All of this indicates that the sincerity of the Opposition is open to question.

In 1975 public capital expenditure was £115 million. The National Coalition cut this figure in 1976 to £105 million and expenditure dropped further to £100 million in 1977. The drop in real terms between 1975 and 1977 was 57 per cent. Since we resumed office the provision for capital expenditure increased each year. This year it is £183 million which represents an increase of 20 per cent in real terms relative to 1977. Our housing record stands head and shoulders over that of the Coalition. They abandoned their aspirations after 1975.

We had an average of 25,000 houses in 4 years. Fianna Fáil never had that number and never will.

We increased it by 1,100 this year. Both Deputy Fitzpatrick and Deputy Tully spoke about alleged cut-backs in housing schemes. Every aspect of housing is inter-related. I have spoken already about the steady progress made in increasing total new house completions. During the past three years many people on local authority waiting lists have been encouraged to build their own homes by availing of SDA loans and the low rise mortgage schemes. As a result largely of Government policy a record number of private houses was built in 1979. The local authority housing programme has been kept at a steady level of about 6,000 completions per year.

Deputy Fitzpatrick referred to the record of 8,794 local authority houses completed in 1975 when Deputy Tully was Minister for Local Government. However, he forgot to mention that the programme was rapidly run down from that level with a drop of more than 1,500 completions in 1976.

It is 1,000 more than the Government had this year.

It went down to 6,333 in 1977. We have tried to avoid these peaks and valleys and we have kept progress at a steady level since we took office. Taking casual vacancies in existing local authority houses into account, 8,900 applicants are taken from waiting lists each year. Effectively there is a three-year turnover of all approved applicants on waiting lists totalling some 27,000 for the whole country. Of these, two-thirds of all approved applicants on waiting lists were families of three persons or fewer. In other words, families comprising husband, wife and two or more children constituted only about one-third of the applicants.

That was the case when the Minister took over.

Clearly, we are making significant progress in tackling the backlog of housing needs. I mentioned the programme of 6,000 houses per year. For the record the figures were 6,240 in 1979 compared with 6,073 in 1978 and 6,333 in 1977. Work was in progress on 8,924 houses at the end of March last. This is well above the average monthly figures for 1977, 1978 or 1979. Employment in the programme at the end of March 1980 was 6,644. This compares favourably also with the figures for the previous three years and was much higher than the monthly average of 5,635 in 1976.

Deputy O'Brien complained about air pollution caused by emissions from buses and from other heavy transport vehicles. He asked if we will not take any action in this regard until we are forced by the EEC to do so. Existing regulations under the road traffic legislation require that emissions of vehicle exhaust be kept at acceptable levels. Enforcement of these regulations is a matter for the Garda.

The capital allocation for sanitary services in 1980 is £40 million. As a result of the build up in investment in sanitary services since this Government returned to office, I have been able to approve a total of 132 major public water and sewerage schemes and these are estimated to cost £85 million. In addition I have increased the limit for small schemes from £20,000 to £30,000 and I have allocated £3 million to small schemes in 1980. This represents three times the level of spending on such schemes while the Coalition were in office. Employment in sanitary services has increased by approximately 1,277 to 2,000 at the end of 1979. This is a 66 per cent increase. I am confident that the capital allocation for sanitary services this year is more than adequate to maintain the enhanced level of employment in the current year.

I should like to remind the House also that the Government increased substantially the maximum group water schemes grant from £200 to £300 for schemes which commenced on or after 1 November 1977. Consequently, group schemes installations and payments have been running at record levels since 1978. Group scheme domestic installations have increased as follows: 1976, 6,187; 1977, 7,930; 1978, 10,770 and 1979, 10,944. At the same time the State grant expenditure on group schemes has increased from £1.1 million in 1976 to £4.3 million in 1979.

Deputy O'Brien spoke also about the provision of funds for inner city development and he referred in this context to the inter-departmental committee. He maintained that last year £1 million was provided for this purpose and that there was not any money provided for the committee this year. The fact is that £1 million was the amount allocated originally and that it is still available to the present committee which has been expanded to include an assistant manager from Dublin Corporation.

(Cavan-Monaghan): Is the Minister talking about the same £1 million?

The amount of money spent on projects by the IDA was £67,000. That was hardly the fault of the committee. The responsibility at that time was with the then Department of Economic Planning and Development but it has been referred since to my Department. Since then we have expanded the committee and they are establishing an order of priorities. When they have done that they will report back. The money is available and will be available.

Is the Minister talking about the £1 million with which the committee were established?

The Committee were set up and at the same time the £1 million was set aside.

Surely the priorities were passed to the Department before the money was made available.

When the committee were established under the then Department of Economic Planning and Development £1 million was made available to them and only £67,000 of that amount was needed last year.

I thank those Deputies who contributed and I regret that those other Deputies who wished to contribute were not able to do so, but that was not any fault of mine. To be fair, it was not the fault of any of the three parties. As the Fine Gael Whip said today, there was agreement to take one Estimate each Friday in order to get through as many as possible by the end of the session.

(Cavan-Monaghan): It was a question of giving a day to each Estimate or of taking them in bulk at the end.

This arrangement will not work if we are to have the Minister concerned taking an hour of the time to present the Estimate and 45 minutes to reply, thereby leaving only about three hours for the other speakers.

The arrangement we are following was made with the agreement of all parties.

Let us conclude the Estimate before the House.

Question put, and a Division being demanded, it was postponed in accordance with the order of the Dáil of 23 April 1980 until 8.30 p.m. on Wednesday 21 May 1980.
The Dáil adjourned at 4 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday 20 May 1980.
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