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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 13 Jun 1980

Vol. 322 No. 4

Estimates, 1980. - Vote 43: Transport.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £71,261,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1980, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Transport, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.

Because of the time constraint I am not able to give the House a detailed progress report on the various activities of my Department but, in replying to the debate. I will endeavour to comment briefly on the priority issues as I see them and to deal with any points the Deputies may raise.

Of necessity this will be a short debate. Personally I regret the manner in which it is being dealt with. I should much prefer the Minister to make an opening statement of policy and explanation of the various items in this Vote. However, as there was an agreement between the Whips I accept the procedure we are adopting. There are some questions I wish to put to the Minister.

The Estimate before the House is a little different from that contained in the Book of Estimates. The Estimate for 1980 is £88.5 million. In 1979 it was £84.5 million—there is a small increase of £4 million for this year. When one considers the total amount in the Book of Estimates it is a very small amount to deal with such important matters as transport and the tourist industry. Of that £4 million—a 5 per cent increase and in my view a very inadequate one—some £2 million is in respect of salaries and wages and there is another £2 million for holiday accommodation. Perhaps the Minister in his reply will tell the House what that means; personally I do not know what is involved here.

I presume it is as true today as it has been for a long time that the tourist industry is second only to agriculture in importance and value to the economy. One wonders why the Government could not afford to spend a little more for that industry.

I realise the Minister has not much time in which to reply but I should like him to expand on the transport policy enunciated in the Fianna Fáil manifesto. The Minister has made a commitment towards the establishment of a transport authority for Dublin and I should like to know what action, if any, has been taken to establish that authority and, if it has been established, I should like to know what progress has been made. I should like to remind the Minister that the rest of the country also have problems with regard to transport. He is a provincial man and I know he is aware of the situation. I trust that, following the establishment of a transport authority for Dublin, he will consider an overall authority. I realise Dublin has special problems but there should be a commitment to have an authority for the rest of the country.

So far as the amount provided for tourism is concerned, everyone will agree——

We dealt with tourism last week. This Vote is confined to transport.

Tourists must be taken into account also.

I was under the impression that tourism was to be taken with this.

Tourism is now with Industry and Commerce. We had some of that last Thursday. We are confined strictly to Transport.

That will curtail my speech but I do not blame anybody but myself for that. As far as the Transport Vote is concerned I note that the CIE grant of £56 million is similar to the amount provided last year out of a total vote of £88.5 million. It is not sufficient when we consider that wage, oil and other costs are rising rapidly. There will be no improvement in the transport system if we relate that allocation to the amount of money provided this year. Will the Minister let us know if there will be a further increase in fares to bring in the extra money required by CIE? If so we should know now. The Minister may contemplate a cutback in services which have already been curtailed over the last number of decades. Any further cutback in public transport services would be a bad blow to the economy. In view of the money needed by CIE, perhaps the Minister will consider the introduction of a Supplementary Estimate. The Minister should give us his reply to these questions now because we will adjourn in another few weeks and we will not have an opportunity to question the Minister until September or October.

All CIE's rolling stock needs to be replaced. I am informed that the commuter trains in Dublin frequently break down. That is detrimental to the people here and to the tourism industry. Our long distance trains are often overcrowded and shoddy. Many people would resist an increase of funds to CIE and would suggest that the transport system be given over to private enterprise. My party do not believe that that is the solution as private enterprise would take the profitable end or potentially profitable end of the transport system and would leave the residue in the hands of the Minister to be paid for by the taxpayer. I am informed that the same problem in relation to cutbacks of service has occurred in Cork. In relation to the replacement of all the rolling stock, the Minister for Transport should consult with the Minister for Energy in an effort to get rid of the old buses and trains which are eating up energy in the form of oil or other energy powers. The Minister for Transport could in that way contribute towards the conservation of energy.

Has the Minister any plans to replace and modernise the rolling stock? There is no evidence of an efficient public transport policy but perhaps the Minister is waiting for the report of the transport authority who were to be established for the city of Dublin. There is no evidence of any action or of any concern for the rural areas.

Deputy Begley has 15 minutes.

I wish to give five minutes to Deputy Creed if that is all right.

That is all right.

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment and his two Ministers of State, Deputy Flynn and Deputy Killilea. I am disappointed with the capital allocation to CIE for rolling stock. There will be a drastic cutback in services in the near future because of this. Already the radio trains which used bring large numbers of day-trippers to the west have been cut back, the service from Cork to Cobh has gone by the board and the service to Mullingar and some services to the west are also in danger. This is very serious for the western seaboard and I appeal to the Minister to do something about it. If these services are curtailed the people in the west will feel it more than anyone. There is no doubt that some of the carriages on the trains are a disgrace. One would not put a bad greyhound to sleep in some of the carriages that are used to bring the Kerry people from Killarney to Tralee. The Minister should do something about that rolling stock.

In relation to the carriage of goods by road hauliers it is a well known fact that the restrictions on these hauliers were lifted in Great Britain and Northern Ireland many years ago. I cannot understand why the same thing has not happened here. No road haulage licence was issued since 1932. The people who held existing licences were allowed to increase their fleets to six lorries instead of one. There is a monopoly by certain firms of that aspect of trading and it is about time the Minister allowed other people to apply for licences as well. I am also worried about the tachograph proposals which are unduly harsh as far as Irish road hauliers are concerned. The vast majority of EEC road hauliers can do 40 miles per hour on average but here they can only do 25 miles per hour due to the condition of the roads on which not enough money has been spent. I appeal to the Minister to have these proposals amended, as the Minister knows these hauliers will not be able to compete if the proposal is enforced as it stands.

Will the Minister tell us if the bus lane in Dublin has been a success? Does the Minister intend to extend this? If it has been successful the Minister should have no hesitation in extending it. As the Minister knows, the buses are down to seven miles per hour and sometimes three miles per hour in the city.

Deputy Corish mentioned the consultative committee report and pointed out that it was a very good committee as far as Dublin is concerned. However, there is more to the country than Dublin and perhaps the Minister might set up a transport authority to give us a comprehensive report about every county.

We should have a national policy on transport. We have not had such a policy since the foundation of the State and it is about time that we had such a policy.

I wish the Minister well in his new office and would ask him to look at the restrictions on the road hauliers where the problem is that when they deliver a load they cannot get back to the city again on the same day. The Minister might take a look at that in view of the fact that we are in a fuel crisis situation and that energy is supposed to be conserved.

I asked Deputy Begley who is deputising for the spokesman, Deputy Deasy, to give me this opportunity to speak on this Estimate. I should like to ask the Minister some questions that I have been asking his Department and trying to get information on. They relate to CIE.

As far as the rail service is concerned the one I have most experience of is Cork to Dublin and that is a good service. I am very pleased with it but that opinion may not be shared by everyone. However, I am appalled at the bus service we have between provincial towns. My experience here is in relation to Cork city. Deputy Corish mentioned, in relation to the conservation of energy, that anyone who would see CIE buses on the road would be ashamed to take a seat on them. It is a regular feature of the service being provided in the southern capital to have breakdowns every day. The buses are positively filthy. They are not even washed.

One has to send one's suit to the cleaners after them.

The same applies to the school transport system. I should like the Minister to take note of that. The only way this can be dealt with is by a massive injection of capital into CIE to replace these buses, which are only fit for the scrapyard. I have been informed by people who use the service regularly that it frequently happens that a passenger will have to keep a door closed or a gear in place. When one has a semi-State body providing that kind of service it is time to bring it to the attention of the Minister.

I should like the Minister to indicate what he proposes to do to improve the service. It is of concern to many people. Deputies Corish and Begley mentioned the fact that tourists use this service, as do workers, students and so on. I live 25 miles from Cork harbour, where there is a large concentration of industry. People who live 30 miles out are using cars to take them to and from work. If they had a dependable service provided by CIE it would be more economical for them to use it and it would conserve energy.

The same applies as regards transporting children to school. Can the Minister give some indication as to what steps he proposes to take to improve that service? I have made inquiries before about it and I do not want to be fobbed off by saying it is a matter for CIE. It is a matter for the Minister for Transport, who is responsible. It means the Minister must provide the wherewithal to provide a satisfactory service. It will probably be expensive initially, but in the long term it will serve the useful purpose of conserving energy. More people will avail of it if it is reliable. If one travels the road from Cork to Macroom one will find buses broken down on the side of the road and passengers who paid the fare thumbing a lift. That is just not on and I would be grateful to the Minister if he gives me some indication of what he proposes to do.

I would welcome the opportunity of having longer than 15 minutes to go into all the various aspects covered by my Department. I will deal with the points raised and give some indication of where we are going and the various semi-State boards under my control.

As regards the question raised by Deputies Begley and Corish on the national transport policy and this Government's answer to it, we have taken very definite steps in that direction. The Transport Consultative Commission reported to me on the first task set to them: to look into the very serious problems in the Dublin area in relation to urban transportation and the traffic chaos. There was a very quick response from the Government and we announced a decision to set up a Dublin Transportation Authority. In the interim I decided to set up a task force, which I have done, and the various Government Departments involved in this area are represented. They have held four meetings and their operational group have held two meetings. I am pressing ahead with arrangements for the introduction of four more bus priority measures. The first one has been a success and I look forward to keeping the timetable that I set the task force of the introduction of four more within one year of their being set up.

On the broader aspect of transport policy we hear the catch cry about a national transport policy. What does this mean? If I spent my time working out a big blueprint my time would be gone in my term of office and I would not have seemed to have done anything. I prefer to deal with the immediate problems and take action on them. That is a better way forward than trying to work out a blueprint. What we are doing is part and parcel of an overall transport policy.

In relation to the concern of Deputy Corish for rural areas, the Transport Consultative Commission are carrying out an in-depth study into road freight haulage. They will be reporting to me in double quick time. They carried out the other one very quickly and I have no reason to believe this one will not be as quick. I will be acting on that. There has been a significant amount of liberalisation in the road freight transport area. In 1971 all the area restrictions were removed and livestock was exempted. In 1978—this was referred to by Deputy Begley—if a man had a haulage plate he could have it six fold. When I receive the report from the commission I will be investigating that area. The policy of the Department in that area is well as known. We are going for a quality transport system more than a quantity one. We want to see the best cost-effective transport policy introduced here for the benefit of consumers, industry and everybody else.

I was asked to outline what we were doing in regard to buses for CIE. That has a bearing on the transport authority we decided to establish. We are pressing ahead with the legislation which we expect will be introduced soon. Side by side with this must come a new bus fleet for CIE. I should like to tell the House that CIE have concluded arrangements for a bus-building operation at Shannon to supply their future bus requirements. I understand that production arrangements are well in hand. It is expected that 50 new buses will be ready by the end of this year. The plan is to give CIE 200 double-decker buses for urban operations in 1981. The new factory will employ 200 people, a definite step in the right direction.

I am aware of the problems mentioned by Deputy Creed about Cork. I should like to reiterate what he said about the CIE rail service from Cork. It is an excellent service and I found it so when I travelled on it on Friday morning. With regard to the future investment policies of CIE I should like to tell the House that as soon as I am presented with the McKinsey report I will take it before the Government. We will then define the investment policy for the future. The capital allocation to CIE this year was £25.125 million, including £1.125 million for the Rosslare project. The electrification of the Howth-Bray line will make a significant contribution towards the Dublin situation. It is going ahead. Deputy Kelly questioned me before as to the stage of development and I informed him that the preliminary work on the signaling aspect was in progress. The alteration to the line is proceeding and tenders have been received for part of the electric equipment. The design work is going ahead and already 100 people are employed on the project. That figure will be increased to 280. It is expected that this work will be completed by 1983.

What is the cost expected to be?

£53 million. Originally it was estimated that it would cost in the region of £46 million. Other points were raised about the possibility of further increases in CIE fares but there is no such proposal before me. The subvention to CIE is set at £56 million. The out-turn for the year will largely depend on the new pay agreements entered into this year.

What about the spy in the cab?

The tachograph is under the Department of Labour and that Department have already applied for a late introduction of the system. We hope they are successful. I should like to avail of this opportunity of commenting briefly on some of the semi-State bodies under my control. The very successful B & I company introduced their new Jet-foil service this year. Forecasts are being fulfilled and their passenger-carrying numbers are ahead of target. The new service from Rosslare to Pembroke introduced a few weeks ago represents a further commitment to the tourist industry. The roll-on roll-off service is being fully developed by the company and, although it had a loss of £1.1 million, that cannot be attributed to operations within the company. That loss was largely due to strikes at Liverpool docks and the strike of road hauliers in England. When allowance is made for those strikes the company had a good year. It is expected that the company will return to profit in 1980.

Irish Shipping Limited had a successful year and it is expected that their results will be published soon. I am sure the House is pleased to hear that. That company is making a valuable contribution, through their subsidiary, Irish Continental Lines, with the Rosslare-Cherbourg and the Rosslare-Le Harve services. We are fully committed to a harbour development programme and we believe it is of paramount importance to an island economy such as ours. A total of £4.5 million is provided in the Estimate for such work, compared with £3.6 million last year. Most of this money will go towards the harbour development works in Cork which was initially given an allocation of £3 million. The figure was increased recently by £2.7 million. That is further evidence of the Government's commitment to that fine development in Cork harbour. When I visited that area last week I was very impressed by the work being carried on. That should make a major contribution to the development of the economy of the Cork area.

I was glad to learn of the ambitious five-year development programme of the Dublin Port and Docks Board. Harbour development is taking place at New Ross, Drogheda, Wicklow and Foynes which is about to come on stream.

The Minister is beginning to sound like Deputy Lenihan in using phrases such as "on stream".

With regard to Aer Lingus, I should like to state that I will not engage in a system of reducing fares where it will undermine the economic viability of our national airline, our national flag carrier. I dealt with questions from the Opposition recently and I got the impression that they were not concerned with the economic viability of our national airline. They were constantly harassing for a reduction in fares. I do not subscribe to that policy. We are all aware of the real economic problems that were created on the North Atlantic route this year and we are aware of the huge increases in Aer Lingus costs attributed to the significant increase in oil prices. I should like to tell the House that £17 million was the Aer Lingus fuel bill in 1978-79 and in 1979-80 it is expected to be more than £30 million. It is expected that it will reach £42 million in 1980-81, an increase of about 250 per cent. How any Member could advocate a reduction in air fares which would put the company into a disastrous economic situation I do not know. Over the next ten years the company must engaged in a fleet replacement operation. The company had a good year and its ancillary services contributed largely to this. We subscribe to expansion in that area because we know that Aer Lingus operating on its own would not be a viable economic proposition. For that reason their ancillary services must be kept going.

Aer Rianta produced excellent results for the year with a return of £5.05 million. The House should consider that no provision was made for capital or interest because Aer Rianta gets its money directly from the Vote. The total traffic through airports in 1979 increased by 7.5 per cent over the 1978 figure. We are all aware of the difficult problems that exist at our three airports at present in relation to the work stoppage involving craft workers. I should like to take this opportunity of again appealing to those craft workers to consider, in the national interest, the damage that can be inflicted on a tourist industry, which will find it very difficult this year. They should consider the damage that can be inflicted on our international contracts and the damage that can be done to our international image, the great image that Aer Lingus has built up abroad in carrying passengers and servicing aircraft. Those workers should consider a good solid response to the leadership of the trade union movement and return to work. They should realise that the negotiation table is the place to solve problems. As a small nation in this difficult economic year we cannot suffer any more as a result of such stoppages. I earnestly appeal to them to consider, in the national interest, a return to work and get to the negotiating table. That is where the national interest will be served best and that is where they will ensure their own jobs for the future. If those international contracts are endangered the jobs of those workers will be at risk.

I was asked for an extension of the recommendations in the report of the Transport Consultative Commission. In that report you will see that when the recommendations that are made in relation to the Dublin situation are carried out similar solutions could also be applied in our other major urban areas, Cork, Limerick, Waterford and so on. The traffic chaos in Dublin is of prime importance at the moment. We are pressing ahead with the setting up of a transportation authority. The task force is already discussing the make-up and format of that transportation authority and they are preparing legislation to set it up. In the interim the task force are continuing their job and monitoring progress with monthly reports. I am very pleased with the progress they have made and we look forward to seeing the introduction of more bus priorities in the next 12 months.

Vote put and agreed to.
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