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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 20 Jun 1980

Vol. 322 No. 8

Estimates, 1980. - Vote 36: Fisheries.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £16,720,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1980, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry, including sundry grants-in-aid.

With the permission of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I propose that the usual practice of discussing the Fisheries and Forestry Estimates together be followed in which case I shall move the Forestry Estimate after the debate concludes.

The Fisheries Estimate shows an increase of £718,990 over last year's Vote. The overall increase is due mainly to increases of £1,250,000 for major fishery harbour works, £334,500 for salaries, wages and advances, £557,500 in the grant-in-aid to Bord Iascaigh Mhara for administration and current development and £56,700 in the grant-in-aid for the Inland Fisheries Trust. Reductions occur in the provision for the construction of exploratory fishing vessels, the capital grant to Bord Iascaigh Mahara and expenditure in connection with the acquisition of fisheries.

On progress of the industry, conservation measures in 1979 and in particular those which closed herring fisheries, caused a reduction in landings as compared with 1978. A small increase in unit prices, however, resulted in a marginal increase in the value of domestic landings. The total value of the catch, excluding salmon landings and including foreign landings, increased from £25 million in 1978 to £27 million in 1979. The value of the salmon catch was £5.03 million. The value of exports increased from £31 million in 1978 to £33 million in 1979.

Twelve projects, incorporating either new processing plants or extensions to existing ones have been approved for grant purposes in the calendar year 1979 involving a total investment of £2.6 million. Statutory quality controls have been introduced for pelagic and shellfish to supplement those already in operation for demersal varieties.

On fishery harbour works and miscellaneous marine schemes steady progress is being made in providing improvement works where they are needed for fish landings, berthing of boats and other necessary facilities at fishing ports.

At Killybegs, civil engineering work in connection with the installation of a weighbridge is almost complete. The civil engineering works in connection with the installation of the syncrolift will be put to tender later this year. A contract has been awarded for the construction of the auction hall and work will commence very shortly.

At Castletownbere, plans for the provision of an effluent disposal plant and for the supply of a 38kv electricity supply to the area are well advanced. Work is progressing on the fish processing plant which is being built on Dinish Island by Eiranova Limited, an Irish subsidiary of the Spanish firm Pescanova.

At Howth, work is progressing according to plan on the harbour development scheme. The works in progress include the building of a new trawler breakwater, rock drilling and blasting within the new harbour area and the reclamation of the foreshore to the west of the west pier. A syncrolift, slipways, and auction hall, and the widening of the west pier are included in the scheme which will take about three years to complete. Over £1 million has been spent on the scheme to date.

As with my predecessor my main concern in relation to Ireland's membership of the EEC is the continuing negotiations on a definitive common fisheries policy. The Government's position in regard to a final agreement on such a policy has been made clear on numerous occasions and I see no advantage in retracing old ground today.

The Council meeting in January last was able to agree for the first time on a Community regulation laying down total allowable catches for Community waters for 1980 and this was complemented by a regulation providing for a Community system of catch reporting, which again is another first in this area.

The most recent Council was held in Luxembourg on Monday last, 16 June, and this will be followed up by a further meeting on 21 July. Last Monday's meeting was mainly taken up by a discussion on a Commission paper on possible ways of calculating quotas for individual member states which incidentally provides for implementation of The Hague commitment to double the Irish catch between 1975 and 1979. This meeting was conducted in a very friendly and conciliatory manner which was to be expected following the resolution adopted by the Council of Foreign Ministers on 30 May 1980 which specified 1 January 1981 as the target date for the adoption of a new common fisheries policy. I am therefore quite optimistic that we are now on the way to reaching final agreement on this very contentious issue. The outcome of the 1979 scheme of FEOGA grants for the inshore fishing industry was very favourable as far as Ireland is concerned in that nine fishing boats and three mariculture projects were allocated grant-aid amounting to £2,166,000, or 26 per cent of the total available for all member states. A scheme on the same lines has been agreed by the Council for 1980 and should be in operation shortly. This scheme will for the first time provide grants for the modernisation of fishing vessels.

The grant-in-aid to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara for 1980 for administration and current development amounts to £3,760,500, and the grant-in-aid for capital development amounts to £5,000,000. Additional funds are available by way of repayable advances from the Central Fund, a line of credit from financial institutions and the board's own resources to meet the demand by fishermen for loans for boats and so on. In addition to subvention towards the purchase of boats and gear the board's grant-in-aid for capital development also covers the provision of services to the fishing industry such as ice plants training and grants for mariculture.

In reviewing events of the past year a reference must be made to the sale of their boatyards by BIM. As Deputies are well aware, these yards has been incurring substantial losses in previous years and redundancies were inevitable. Transfer of the yards to private ownership has proved to be a very satisfactory development. The yards were disposed of at satisfactory prices, the Exchequer has been relieved of the losses and, more important, the large scale redundancies which faced the work force were avoided.

Suggestions have been made recently in this House that the delay in publishing the 1978 BIM report was due to covering up of irregularities. I can assure the House that there were no irregularities to cover up. There was absolutely nothing sinister in the delay, which was unavoidable. I hope Deputies will accept that.

The most significant development in the mariculture sector has been the introduction of the mariculture grant scheme administered by An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. Under the scheme grants of up to 30 per cent of capital expenditure may be made available, thus giving an important stimulus to the promotion of mariculture development. The revised legislative procedures outlined in section 54 of the Fisheries Act, 1980, will become operative as soon as all prior applications under the old legislation have been dealt with.

I now refer to our inland fisheries, the most important of which are our salmon fisheries. Provisional figures show that the total weight of the salmon catch in 1979 by all fishing methods was 1,073 metric tonnes, valued at £5.03 million as against 1,180 metric tonnes, valued at almost £4 million in 1978. The overall catch by weight in 1979 showed a 9 per cent drop on the 1978 catch, which in turn showed a similar decline on the 1977 figures. The market value of salmon caught in 1979 rose by almost 25 per cent on that for 1978, due no doubt to the effects of supply and demand and general inflationary trends. These figures do not include sea trout, which however are of relatively minor importance.

The estimated quality of salmon exported in 1979 was 667 metric tonnes, valued at £3,858,000, compared with 1,061 metric tonnes, valued at £4,191,000, in 1978. A proportion of the salmon exported in 1979 was of course in processed form, which was reflected in an increase in the exported value as against the landed value.

As to the protection of our salmon fisheries, my Department, with the co-operation of the Minister for Defence, arranged again for vessels of the Naval Service to patrol our coastal salmon fisheries during 1979 in support of the Garda and the fisheries protection staffs of the boards of conservators. I am pleased to say that this combined fishery protection effort was largely successful and resulted in the seizure and removal from our salmon fisheries of good quantities of fishing nets of illegal size and made from prohibited monofilament material. I have arranged that naval patrols of our salmon fisheries, with a backup land force of gardai where this is called for, will be carried out again during the 1980 season in co-operation with the protection staffs of the boards of conservators. The need for these enhanced joint protection measures continues in order to conserve our declining salmon stocks by ensuring adequate escapement of brood salmon to the spawning grounds in our rivers.

The Fisheries Act, 1980, became law in March 1980. The main object of the Act is to secure the most effective conservation, management and development of inland fisheries through the reorganisation and strengthening of the existing administrative structure. To that end, as previously publicised, the Act provides for the dissolution of the existing 17 boards of conservators and the Inland Fisheries Trust and for their replacement by a Central Fisheries Board and seven regional fisheries boards. Arrangements to set up these new boards are under way in my Department and I expect them to be in operation within a few months.

Turning to the Forestry Vote, the nett main Estimate, £21,021,000, represents an increase of £3,473,000 on the overall 1979 provision and is due mainly to higher salaries and wages and increased prices.

I should point out, however, that since the Estimate was prepared it has become necessary to make provision for a number of developments which could not have been anticipated. These are now the subject of a Supplementary Estimate for £4,053,000, which, as Deputies are aware, has been introduced and which I shall be moving when the debate on the main Estimate concludes. I trust that it will be more convenient for Deputies if, as well as dealing with the main Estimate, I refer also, at the appropriate stage, to the items covered by the Supplementary Estimate.

As the restricted time available does not permit me to deal with each subhead in detail I shall concentrate on the major items and, in particular, those which reflect substantial changes from last year. However, I shall of course when replying to the debate deal with specific points which Deputies may wish to raise on individual subheads.

Subhead C 21 deals with Forest Development and Management. As usual, this constitutes the main focal point of expenditure. Of the total subhead provision in the main Estimate, over £12 million is needed for wages to keep over 2,600 forest workmen in regular employment. This subhead caters for the wide variety of activities associated with the development and management of the national forest estate, which now embraces some 367,400 hectares or 907,800 acres. These include the production of nursery stock; the establishment, maintenance, and protection of State plantations; public recreation facilities; purchase, hire and maintenance of machinery; construction of forest roads; and the harvesting and conversion of timber. Provision is included for certain replacements in the machinery fleet and for an expansion of the roadmaking programme.

Subhead D deals with grants for private planting and my Department continues their policy of encouraging private forestry. The additional provision in the subhead this year reflects my recent announcement that substantial increases in the level of grants were being made available to assist private planting.

Under subhead G, game development and management, the substantial increase this year arises from the recruitment of 48 wildlife rangers. This new cadre of field personnel is geared towards a better enforcement of the Wildlife Act, not merely in relation to game matters but also in the context of the entire wildlife spectrum.

The conservation grant-in-aid for 1980 provides mainly for expenditure on wildlife research, an essential element of wildlife conservation and management. Habitat protection is perhaps the most important single aspect of wildlife conservation. It is my intention that current work of identifying important wildlife habitat in both State and private ownership will continue with a view to the establishment and management under the Wildlife Act of a representative network of nature reserves.

The final element in the main Estimate is subhead J, appropriations in aid. As Deputies will see, the projection for receipts in the original Estimate represents an expectation of £1 million more than in 1979. However, this has been found to be over-optimistic. I will deal more fully with this item in a few moments and, with this in mind, I should like now to turn my attention to the Supplementary Estimate referred to earlier. Of the total net supplementary amount, £4,053,000, nearly £2½ million—spread over a number of subheads—is accounted for by increases in pay and allowances for some 3,200 foresters and industrial workers sanctioned subsequent to the preparation of the original Estimate.

The remaining non-pay requirements in the Supplementary Estimate, which come to £1.6 million arise from the difficulties at present being experienced in the timber industry. With the continuing depressed state of the market for pulpwood-size timber, the Forest and Wildlife Service is faced with a growing arrear of thinning. If this problem is not attended to, it will inevitably have adverse effects on the quality, size and total availability of the more valuable sawlog sector in future years. In these circumstances the Government, having regard to the considerable national economic advantage involved, authorised that contracts be placed for a limited period with the two remaining pulpwood processing firms in the country to undertake harvesting and removal of small material in specified State forests by carrying out the necessary thinning of designated plantations on a contract basis, utilising the services of experienced harvesting gangs. This arrangement, coupled with the work done by the limited training harvesting work force of the Forest and Wildlife Service, will control to a degree the arrears of thinning in the State forests. An additional sum of £800,000 is included under subhead C.2 (7) for contract thinning of State forests.

Under subhead C.4 the sum of £400,000 is being provided to fund the continued operations of Chipboard Ltd., which is in receivership, for a limited period while proposals for a restructuring of the company are being considered.

The final item in the Supplementary Estimate concerns subhead J—Appropriations in Aid—to which I referred briefly a few moments ago.

Receipts in the Forestry Vote depend mainly on sales of timber. The current year's receipts from such sales arise partly from contracts entered into in 1979 and partly from contracts being made in 1980.

I hope that what I have said gives Deputies a good general picture of both sides of my Department and I shall be most interested in their comments. I now commend the Estimate to the House.

This is the first time the Minister has presented an Estimate to this House. I should like to offer him our co-operation so far as Estimates and the interests of the Department of Fisheries and Forestry are concerned. In return, we expect him to give close attention to points raised by Members of this House.

Yesterday we dealt with fisheries but today I should like to concentrate on forestry, although I must point out that I would need much more than 15 minutes to deal with this subject. The Minister was quite right to stress that in dealing with fisheries and forestry we are concerned with two of our most important national industries. In a sense the Minister is lucky because he is new to the job and can put forward new policies. There has been talk about the dying forests, but many of us think that for the past while the Department have been dying if one is to judge what they have done with regard to fisheries and forestry. We welcome the new Minister. He should not be afraid to put forward new policies that are in the interests of these two major industries. Recently a very good Bill affecting inshore fishermen was brought in and the Minister's predecessor got much support from this side of the House. The Minister can expect the same co-operation if he brings forward the right kind of Bills to get these industries moving again. In the past I have been critical and I shall continue to be critical until something is done about our natural resources that have been wasted for too long.

With regard to forestry, a report was commissioned in 1978 and I understand a summary was published in the Progressive Farmer in May 1980. I should like to know from the Minister what has happened to that report. Does he intend to implement the suggestions contained in it? Ireland has the lowest percentage of land under trees in Europe. We have just about 3 per cent or 4 per cent under trees as against 20 per cent in other European countries. Probably 25 per cent to 30 per cent of our land is poor, waste or mountain land. When one travels in the western countries one sees many acres of land that are not utilised. In Germany every square yard of land is utilised. We must utilise our land, and the Department are the people to do that.

After all, the importation of timber represents our heaviest import bill. I should like to know what the Minister proposes to do in this area. The Government are trying to cut down on imports. We should ensure that we grow more trees, that we process more timber and thus reduce this shocking import bill. Afforestation progressed steadily in the 1950s. Recently we asked the Minister to tell us how many acres he considered would be planted in 1980 and how many acres were planted in 1979. His reply was about 20,000 acres annually. Even on that calculation, there was a shortfall of 5,000 acres in 1979 and 1980. What is the reason for this? We should not be satisfied to plant only 20,000 acres. We must plan ahead because people who know about afforestation agree that there will be a world shortage of timber before the end of the 1990s. We should plan now to cope with that problem, just as planning was done in the 1950s but that unfortunately did not continue.

We have a ready-made market in this area because Britain can never be self-sufficient in timber. We can be self-sufficient, and there is no excuse for any government to pay these vast amounts for imported timber. The Department of Forestry will need to streamline the system regarding the acquisition of land. The present system is totally wrong. There should be no such thing as bargaining when it comes to buying land. The people should be offered a realistic price for their land and if they do not accept it that is too bad. The Department should offer farmers the proper market price, they should buy the land and get on with the work of afforestation. We should advertise for more land. Our target should be to plant 40,000 acres per year. There should be proper access roads to the forests so that the trees can be taken out.

There has been much concern recently about the number of forest fires. I should like the Minister in his reply to tell us how many acres of forests were destroyed by fire in 1979. Fire brigade personnel have told me that the present system is not the right one. I understand they have to consult with the forester and sometimes the Army before they attempt to put out the fire. A direction should be given that the forester only should have complete control in the event of a fire. Forest fires have cost the State a lot of money recently. We should develop our forests, bogs and mountainous land. Until this is done anybody who is serious about the development of afforestation cannot be happy.

The Minister mentioned the serious situation with regard to factories. I suggest that the Department, in conjunction with the IDA, should ensure that factories are situated near the forests. This was part of the problem recently where there were closures in the saw-milling and chipboard industries. We will have to deal with areas such as Cork, Mayo and Donegal. It is sad to say that even the thinnings are not being taken from the forest. As Members know, if thinnings are not taken away, the forests cannot develop properly and trees will not grow to maturity.

We must get a market for our thinnings. It is sad that some of our thinnings are being left to rot. The Department should give serious consideration to getting industrialists interested in the processing of timber. These trees have been planted since the twenties and thirties and now that they are ready, it is sad that we have no processing facilities and no market for our timber especially when the second highest import here is timber. The factory at Athy has been closed, the factory at Waterford has been closed, there are difficulties in Scariff and there is a question mark over Clondalkin. I hope that every facility will be provided to ensure that another factory will not be closed. The timber needed in this country can only be processed if we encourage the right people to process, manage and eventually sell the timber. Thousands of jobs are going to waste in the timber industry. The Minister for Forestry has a challenge here to see that the forests are fully developed.

In relation to fisheries I am glad that the Minister stated that he hopes to have an EEC policy before the House in 1981. In relation to deep sea fishing we need to restructure BIM, we need an Irish fishing policy and also an EEC fishing policy. We should re-structure BIM and formulate our policy before going to Brussels in relation to the EEC fishing policy. The Minister's hand should be strengthened in this way because it will not be easy to negotiate in Brussels unless we have a fishing policy of our own.

The function of BIM should be changed. What is needed is a marine council to get all the interested parties under the one umbrella. At the moment there are about six different departments dealing with marine life and three departments dealing with technology and research alone. We are wasting a lot of expertise on the duplication of work. The Minister, at Cabinet level, should suggest that everything to do with marine life should come under his Department.

The Deputy has two minutes to conclude.

BIM should be restructured so as to include everything to do with marine life under the one umbrella.

In relation to our fishing policy, having regard to what has happened over the last couple of years, we cannot go to Brussels and talk only about quotas. We must seek a system that will give us a 25-mile or a 20-mile fishing limit. In relation to herring fishing the people in the south-east were not allowed to fish in their natural waters because of EEC regulations but at the same time if EEC boats come back to fish in the Celtic Sea the stocks will only last for a couple of years and the sea will be closed again. We must learn by our mistakes. Quotas are not enough. When I inquired as to the quotas of fish taken from the Celtic Sea I could only get quotas for the Irish fishermen. We do not know what amounts of fish have been taken by the Dutch, French and Scottish trawlers and neither do the EEC. Without knowing that we cannot talk about quotas. We are the good boys and these people are getting away with blue murder. As far as we are concerned our natural industry is not developing in the way it should.

I am sorry I have not longer to deal with this and I suggest that in future in relation to two very important estimates, a lot more than 15 minutes should be given to cover them.

The Deputy will appreciate that the Chair does not decide that.

I, like the previous speaker, welcome the Minister to his new responsibility. I offer the Minister my co-operation and that of my party in ensuring that the full potential of both the forestry and fishery areas is achieved. As long as we know that the Minister is making an honest effort he will have our support.

Many problems in the Department of Fisheries will not be dealt with here because of the short time we have at our disposal. Even the Minister did not have time to conclude his opening speech. Before our entry into the EEC in 1970 the six countries in the Community put together a common fisheries policy the results of which have dogged our industry and will continue to do so until a common fisheries policy is achieved which meets our demands. The original Communities fisheries policy was meant to give equal access to the six member states in territorial waters and there were no exclusive zones. On our entry, EEC fishermen could fish right up to our coasts. That has resulted in very considerable problems for us. The common fisheries policy has been delayed on many occasions, particularly by the British Minister who insists that the British interests are fully met. We too should have our interests met as far as possible by ensuring that a conservation limit around our coast is included in that policy. This would give the Minister and his Department the sole right to decide on what is caught inside that water. A 50-mile limit was suggested by me in the European Parliament several years ago. Unfortunately because of our membership of the EEC we cannot have an exclusive fishing limit. However, we can have a conservation limit. Surely we can demand a conservation limit. We must ensure that the decisions taken in relation to fishing are decisions which will meet the needs of Irish fishermen exclusively. If we do not do so we will have a continuation of what has gone on since 1973 where over-fishing by Community boats and third country boats have depleted several important stocks. Herring are at the point of destruction, not because of the activities of Irish fishing but because of the activities of those countries who having over-fished their waters have turned to the lucrative waters of other countries.

We may not admire the approach of the British in many of their EEC negotiations but we have become familiar with their demands for their money, their fish and their waters. We hope the Minister will maintain, in future, on the basis that Irish waters contain Irish fish for Irish fishermen. I hope the Minister will have a strong approach in the coming very tough negotiations he has to face.

The fishing industry has not prospered as perhaps agriculture did on our entry to the EEC. This can be quickly seen by the results given in the current issue of the BIM accounts which show that 91,000 tonnes of fish were taken in 1953 and in 1977, the latest year for which figures are available, 96,000 tonnes. The value of this fish has risen enormously and the value through processing and exports has also risen enormously, but in fact the improvement in fish landings has been minimal, a little over 1 per cent over the years since our entry into the EEC. The Minister must take this into account. The expansion and investment in the industry are being questioned even by BIM in their opening remarks in their annual report. The future of the industry depends on a common fisheries policy which will take into account the Hague Council's commitment to this country to double our catch over a period of—I think—five years. The Minister has this as ammunition when he sits down at the council table.

At present we are suffering through the dumping of fish from Canada and Norway. One of the planks of our EEC membership has been Community preference. The Minister must insist on Community preference for our fishermen. We are aware of the slump in the price of fish in the past week. The salmon price is half of what it was last year, a windfall undoubtedly for the housewife and the consumer, but it will be a shortlived one because if the destruction of the fishing industry results from dumping here we know that after a short period prices will rocket beyond last year's figures. We must all feel much sympathy for the salmon and inshore fishermen, and without going into the problems which the Minister faces in that area we must ask him to take a sympathetic line on the problems of the fishermen he met yesterday in this House. Nobody wants to see the campaign set out in this morning's paper developing when we would see action having to be taken by our fishery patrols against these fishermen. I ask the Minister to think further on the problems put forward by these fishermen, perhaps meet them again and try to arrive at some compromise before the campaign promised by these men begins.

The imposition of the 10 per cent levy on buyers and consumers is being passed on to the fishermen. Imposition by our Government of Community regulations, as Deputy White said, has meant that fishermen all around the coast, particularly in the poorer areas, are deprived of their livelihood. Application of Common Market rules has reduced fishing periods and has closed fishing grounds and put certain species outside the catching potential of inshore fishermen, who are double the number of full-time fishermen and therefore a considerable asset to the industry. The Minister should further consider the actions he may be contemplating against fishermen, and I ask him to give sympathetic examination to this very difficult problem which he faces.

Those of us in the Labour Party in the European Parliament have tabled a resolution for discussion in the Committee of Agriculture on the problems of inshore fishermen. We believe that this will be a help to the Minister in trying to get an improved policy and ensure that the destruction of this industry and the great difficulties this would place on the areas where fishermen live could be alleviated not only by the Department but also by community action.

We know that work is proceeding at Howth Harbour and we must look at areas where perhaps it is not proceeding, such as Clogher Head particularly. The value of landings in 1977 was half that of Howth and the facilities in Clogher Head are minimal. We know the Minister is examining the situation, but we ask him to do so as quickly as possible. The pier there is crumbling. He has seen it and I have seen it. He should do something immediately in this case. Common Market funds are available for that purpose. I believe there is a 50 per cent regional fund grant available for helping in that area. Closer to my home town of Wicklow, I know that the Minister is considering aid for a fish landing quay there, and I ask him to give that also sympathetic consideration.

In the time available I cannot make much impact on the very important Estimate for Forestry as it affects not only my own constituency but the whole country. There are difficulties in the forestry industry, again resulting from the lack of application of Community preference by the Commission and through the lack of a forestry council meeting and the production of common forestry policy by the Council of Ministers. The Minister is new to his office and probably has not had as much time as he would like to deal with this problem, but I would ask him to have this forestry council meeting to deal with the problems that are besetting the Irish industry. The potential is there for an expansion of forestry, but we can see forest industries very close to where I live closing down because this potential is not being realised. Some 45-50 per cent of forestry is produced within the Community, which implies a deficit situation of between 50 and 55 per cent. The value of their imports last year was £5,000 million. A small share of that spent in our country would make our forest industry much more viable.

Forestry has various aims, the production of timber being the main one. There are also the conservation of the environment, provision of recreation, creation of employment and improvement of the standard of living, particularly in poorer rural areas. I know its value to my own constituency. Those of us who have the dual mandate, Deputy Cronin and myself, have asked questions on forestry so as to ensure that the Irish interest is always in the forefront of decision making. I ask the Minister to allow us to use our influence at Parliament level in the future so as to ensure that the problems existing in the industry are raised on every possible occasion. He was there with me for some time before 1979. There was co-operation there then and I can assure him it is still there. All Irish Members of the European Parliament are prepared to lend their full weight to any Irish Government proposals for the improvement of fishing, forestry or any other area of economic activity.

I conclude by saying that I hope that before the end of the year we will have a fuller discussion in both these areas when we will have time to cover many more aspects of this very important Estimate.

I wish to thank particularly the two Members who have contributed to this debate from the other side of the House. I am very conscious of the courtesy shown by Deputies and of the fact that their geographical position and personal experience might equip them to be much better able to deal with this than a person like myself who has not those advantages, not being from a maritime county. I would like to thank them for their co-operation. The Deputies mentioned that I might bring some new thinking to this Department. I came to the Department with an open mind. Deputy White mentioned a change of heart. I do not like to make a pun on it but I trust that a change of heart will operate from now on. The Deputies appreciate as I do that we are dealing with national resources, forests, fisheries and wildlife, which are things which we would all like to cherish. We have a common objective there.

Deputy White referred to a report from the National Economic and Social Research Council. That report has been received and, in fact, many of the recommendations in it have become operative and as a result of this the IDA have been in a position to grant-aid 33 saw log projects this year and gave 500 people extra jobs in the timber industry. We are often castigated because we have the lowest percentage of our land in forestry in Europe. This is one thing we can say we have inherited when we look back to the old poem "Cad a dhéanfaimid feasta gan adhmad". That is so long ago that we should not use it as an excuse. I believe we have made wonderful strides and we have done more work on afforestation than any other country since we got our liberty and opportunity to do that. I believe if somebody who emigrated from here at the time the State was founded came back and we wanted to show him one particular item more than any other to illustrate what we had done in the course of that time I would dearly like to bring him to Deputy Kavanagh's county and say "There are the forests which were not there when you left; there are the forests we have planted since."

We do not want to rest on our oars. Imports of timber have been mentioned and we are conscious of the fact that we need to carry out more processing at home, we need better presentation and drying facilities, precision sawing and cutting of timber. We are endeavouring to do this. During the year we has discussions with the people in the timber industry. We have endeavoured to change the old system of tendering to probably an agreed price for a portion of that timber and to see that the cost of travel and the cost of bringing timber to the mill is got over as best we can. Those matters have given us thought during the year.

In my speech introducing the Estimate I forgot to mention the Foyle Fisheries Commission. A sum of £80,000 is included in our Estimate to meet our contribution towards the expenses of that. That commission in recent years have had increased annual deficits, which is probably due to the rise in the wages of the commission's protection staff, which must be maintained. There is a certain amount of illegal fishing in the area and the commission's income from fishing licences and profit from commercial fisheries have not succeeded in keeping pace with the extra expenditure. The commission have increased the salmon licence duties payable for fishing in the Foyle area and will continue to try to reduce expenditure.

Grants to the Inland Fisheries Trust were increased this year to over £1 million and to the Salmon Research Trust to £40,000. The Galway Fisheries, which we acquired some years ago, showed a profit of £61,000 last year. Those are some facts which I should have mentioned.

We have a figure of 10,000 hectares per year as our planting programme. There is a certain amount of difficulty with acquisition. The Deputies will appreciate that land which was easily acquired was acquired some years ago. Price is not the only consideration. There is a reluctance among Irish people to part with their land. We have £2 million marked for land acquisition this year. As we go on and as more mature timber becomes available opportunities for reafforestation rather than afforestation for the first time will enable us to reach our planting targets. We are prepared to offer a realistic price. Deputy White said that we should give them a realistic price. When they are given a realistic price they feel that possibly they should have looked for a little more so there is more to it than that. I assure the Deputy that we are endeavouring to acquire the land and we will make the money available to do that.

The Deputies mentioned fires. I share their concern with regard to forest fires. I know I can count on the co-operation of all the House in relation to this matter. We had extraordinarily dry weather in April and May this year and 2,500 acres of forests were destroyed, an exceptional figure.

We have had difficulties with the processing of thinnings. This matter is being examined constantly by the IDA and we are glad of their co-operation. We have three or four firms who have shown very considerable interest. We hope they will be back and that we can set up an industry which will deal with them. The problem of the thinning of our forests is causing some delay. There is, however, a certain amount of flexibility in the year that a thinning must take place. The continued delay in thinning would result in eventual reduction in the diameter of the crop. It is undesirable to allow it but we can cope with this in a year or two and hope to make it up later.

We are getting continued co-operation from the IDA. We have also entered into consultations with the ESB. They are examining the potential of thinnings as a source of energy. We are also dealing with pulpwood and the pulpwood trade. Even though those difficulties may be irksome now I am confident we will overcome them in the course of a few years.

Deputy White mentioned the restructuring of BIM. I saw a reference in the papers recently to that suggestion. I am not positive that BIM are ideal. I am sure even Fianna Fáil are not ideal. We all have our faults but it is like the Land Commission which people said should be removed. When one gets round to talking about what one would replace it with one would probably replace it with something else very much like it.

BIM came in on the ground floor and did a lot of good for our fishing industry. They provided a ladder to enable many people to climb to the top and some of them are perhaps anxious to kick it away now in case others might climb up after them. I know BIM are not perfect but they are not a liability. Perhaps BIM need to be restructured, maybe we could improve them. We will look at that.

That is all I am asking for.

I share the Deputy's concern and I agree with him in regard to our scientific approach to marine life and that we should co-ordinate our efforts, see that there is no duplication of efforts and that any knowledge we have is combined and used. The EEC and our attitude towards conservation were mentioned. If we decide on quotas there is no use talking about them unless we are sure they will be obeyed. We must monitor catches from individual countries. We need to know more about this. It is only recently that the monitoring system has become a reality. It only remains now to decide on the format of the log book that will be used. That will be a step in the right direction.

I would like to thank Deputy Kavanagh for his kind remarks and for his co-operation, which I have already enjoyed in Europe and further afield. I, like him, regret the delay in implementing a common fishery policy. We have, with our nearest member State across the water, established very close links. We have had talks with them recently. Those talks will be ongoing and I believe Britain and ourselves will be able to reach agreement on what we would like and, hopefully, look for, an exclusive fishery limit around our shores with preferential treatment beyond that. My priority, and I am sure it is the priority of everybody in the House, when I go to Europe is to look for the best possible deal for our fishermen, which will include the Hague Agreement. The progressive and continuing development of our fisheries will go on there. During the last week we have made efforts to curtail imports from Canada and lesser amounts from other countries.

Reference was made to our difficulties in relation to the Salmon and Fishing Association. I met them yesterday. I have still a certain amount of sympathy for their case. I realise that their work is hard and unsocial but it is not easy to deal with people when they hold a gun to your head and say: "We will look for your co-operation and we will break the law if we do not get it". That is not the way one expects to deal with people. If Deputies can help in any way to bring about a peaceful solution—I am still looking at it—I would like that.

Could the Minister give them a commitment that the money will be put back into restocking?

There is no doubt about that. I have already given them that commitment. That commitment is there and I assure them that it will be doubled and trebled.

Will every pound be put back into research?

I am positive of that. Deputy Kavanagh mentioned community action and his help in Europe. I realise that when all parties in the House go to Europe they are Irishmen first and will work together. I welcome the Deputy's offer of help. I hope to have consultations with him during the year as to how best with our fishing, wildlife and forestry point of view we can advance our efforts in Europe and gain the greatest amount of good for the country.

Harbours were mentioned. We have specified particular harbours and we are allocating a lot of money to them. Those are the select ones but that does not mean that work ceases on other harbours. We do one which we consider will be the greatest benefit and we get around to the others eventually. We are giving Clogherhead active attention. Deputy Kavanagh said that his own harbour in Wicklow had difficulties in relation to landing. This is a very long-standing problem because over 1,500 years ago Saint Patrick experienced great difficulty in landing in Wicklow, when the people there would not allow him to land and he had to go north. Maybe even at this stage we will manage to solve that problem.

Vote put and agreed to.
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