Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 24 Jun 1980

Vol. 322 No. 9

Electoral (Amendment) Bill, 1980: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Final Stages.

Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:

In page 7, in the first column, to delete "Dublin North" and substitute "Dublin Fingal".

(Deputy Boland)

Mr. Boland:

This is the only amendment to this Bill tabled on Committee Stage. The effect of the amendment would be to recognise the historic area of Fingal. I explained in the House last week that when the Danes arrived in this country over 1,000 years ago the first place they visited was the coastline of North County Dublin. They took the figurehead from their longship and carried it to a place of rising ground which has been known ever since as "Man-o-war" and that is the official name of the townland. They claimed all the territory which could be seen from that place and established their emblem, the black raven of Fingal, which is well known to-day and commemorated in the name of the Black Raven Pipe Band established by Thomas Ashe and William Rooney, a former Member of this House whose son also served as a member.

The area of Fingal is an identifiable area running from Delvin bridge southwards and it is the ideal description for the constituency which has been unimaginatively named Dublin North by the electoral commission. The Minister explained that one of his apprehensions in regard to this amendment was the fact that before the Battle of Clontarf, Brian Boru, a Clare man, had razed and burned as far north as Delvin bridge. It was pointed out that the Minister should not allow county prejudices to obtain for a further 1,000 years in such a way that he, a Clare man, would try to victimise the area of Fingal and refuse to have the name enshrined in legislation. I then suggested to the Minister that, in view of the fact that we have some quite noted personages living in the area of Fingal, he should call to see that gentleman who professes himself interested in culture, tradition, history and heritage, the Taoiseach, who lives in the rural area of Kinsealy, and ask him whether he would prefer to live in the constituency of Dublin North or the constituency of Dublin Fingal, since he and his family have long associations with the Fingal Harriers. Last Sunday the Taoiseach's Minister of State and I participated in the opening of the festival of Fingallians, the oldest football club in North County Dublin. The local newspaper is The Fingal Independent. I suggested to the Minister, who is not unknown to have a wager from time to time, that I would bet him £1—the Chair pointed out that the Chamber was not the place to place bets and I assume the Chair would not take commission on the outcome——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:

I will hold the bet, if you like.

Mr. Boland:

I do not know if the Chair is offering or taking odds. I suggested to the Minister that, if he went to see the Taoiseach, he would be told to accept this amendment and that I would win my £1. I also undertook that I would personally appeal to the Taoiseach, because I know that since taking up that office he is opening everything openable in Malahide and Kinsealy. In that context I met him on Friday night and made a direct appeal to him. He was gracious enough to say that he would consider it over the weekend. The House is now waiting to hear whether the Minister, following discussion with the Taoiseach, has reconsidered his position in relation to this amendment which proposes to enshrine in legislation the historic area of Fingal and to give that constituency the name by which its residents would better know it than the unimaginative name of Dublin North.

Mr. Tully:

There is no reason why it should not be changed if that makes everyone happy. Deputy Boland's point seems to be fairly reasonable. Perhaps the Minister has not had an opportunity of talking to the Taoiseach but perhaps he will let us know what exactly happened.

Mr. Barrett:

The fact that I mentioned Brian Boru has nothing to do with my acceptance of the amendment. I merely raised this in the context of what Deputy Boland said about the Danish connection with that area. I said on the last day that we had agreed to accept the commission's report entirely without amendment. I cannot accept the Deputy's amendment because there is a definite pattern going through the whole report with regard to the names of constituencies. The Dublin constitutencies are called Dublin South, Dublin South-East, Dublin North, Dublin West, Dublin South-West and so on. The same applies to places like Cork and Galway. I am not accepting the amendment.

Mr. F. O'Brien:

The Minister is being very weak kneed here and is afraid to take his courage in his hands and amend the Bill. I feel that the decision not to change the report was in the context of not amending portions of the constituencies for fear that this would have a roll-over effect on every other constituency. This amendment does not change in any way the context of the Bill. It does not matter to me whether this constituency is called North Dublin or Fingal Harriers as this is only a technicality, but given its established name and the historic significance of the name, it seems to be only common sense to agree to Deputy Boland's request and meet the change here. For some strange reason the Minister has frozen on the idea that he cannot make a change.

If the Minister made a change here he would at least have ensured that a precedent of not changing any commission's report was not established. The House should demonstrate its ability to change a commission's report. After all, they are only recommendations. The Government are afraid to make the change because it might throw some slight on the House or dishonour the members of the commission but that is utter non-sense. The members of these commissions are sensible people who do what they are appointed to do and then report their findings so that this House can make their decision. The House is only looking but is afraid to make any decision.

The Minister has obviously been instructed not to make any changes and the reasons do not appear to be valid. That order has been handed down and the Minister is obeying it to the letter. That is regrettable and it will have repercussions. It does not seem to matter to the Government that we are copper-fastening the future. When such reports come in again the precedent will be not to change them as it would not be in the best interests because these commissions have been set up and their reports are not to be changed. We are setting a very bad precedent. If the Minister made the simple change he would be doing something for posterity. The Minister seems to be afraid to deviate because the Government totally accepted the commission's report. In this case all the Minister is doing is turning this House into a rubber stamp. That is despicable and it is not what this House is all about. This House will not be thanked in the future for handing away their powers as they do in this Bill.

Mr. Boland:

I do not follow the Minister's line of reasoning on this. The Minister gave as his reason for not accepting this amendment the fact that the Dublin constituencies followed a pattern in which they were named Dublin North, Dublin South-East, Dublin South-West and so on. This constituency should be named Dublin Fingal because it is different from the other Dublin constituencies. It is the one Dublin constituency which contains a large rural area, an area that has an historic tradition, an entity with a tradition of its own. The constituency of Dublin North is much different from the constituency of Dublin South-East where we have Leeson Street and Baggot Street and so on. The constituency of Dublin North comprises of places such as the townland of Chapelmidway, the Bowsie Road, the townland of Pass If You Can, the townland of the Man O'War, the townland of the Nags Head, the townland of Milverton, the townland of Skepubble, the townland of Quickapenny and the townland with the beautiful name of Newtown Oldtown, the areas of Rowlestown St. Margaret's, Naul and Garristown. Surely one cannot put together a constituency comprising of those areas and say that it should be called Dublin North, because Baggot Street, Leeson Street and that area are called Dublin South-East. It is an entirely different area, different in its character and make up and it does not want to be known as Dublin North. It has been known as Fingal for a thousand years and it should be described as Fingal in this legislation.

Deputy O'Brien makes a very valid point. While the commission's recommendation is accepted unanimously by both sides of the House it should not be taken that if some future commission make an absolutely ridiculous suggestion it should be accepted just because no Government or minister has the courage to say that it is wrong, that all parties recognise that it is wrong and that they are prepared to amend the suggestion to improve the situation. That is what happens in Great Britain and in other countries and there is no reason why we should fall over ourselves to rubber stamp something just so that nobody can point the finger and say, "You are the fellows who tried to change the Commission's proposal". What the Minister is doing by refusing this amendment is establishing a precedent where subsequent suggestions by any commission irrespective of their validity or workability, will be accepted because the Minister is hamstrung into putting them before the House without amendment even if all the Members of the House feel it will not work. Nobody will have the courage to approach this in a practical sensible way. Surely on this small amendment we would have established the precedent that the House were prepared to remind themselves and the nation that they are the legislators, that the Oireachtas enacts the legislation and that if the Oireachtas feels that some suggestion merits improvement then that improvement will be made when the Bill is being debated in the House.

The final thing I wish to say to the Minister is that, if he is going to continue in his opposition to accepting this amendment, are we to take it that the Taoiseach and the other members of his party have agreed that Dublin North should not be called Dublin Fingal and that the Taoiseach, who lives in that area, and other members of his party are in agreement that they prefer to see the area of Fingal deprived of its name, denied its historic tradition and established as the unimaginative constituency of Dublin North? Are we to take it that the Minister is speaking on behalf of all other members of his party in saying that they are opposed to Fingal being called Fingal?

Mr. Barrett:

Nobody over the years worried as to whether it was called Dublin-North, as it has been in the past. Nobody worried about changing it to Dublin Fingal——

Mr. Boland:

It was Dublin North County.

Mr. Barrett:

Even Dublin North County. The Deputy mentioned that it was the only part of the county where you have a large rural area. It is not. You have Dublin South and Dublin South-West each with large rural areas. There is nothing unusual or peculiar to Dublin North as regards being more rural than city constituencies any more than there is in the case of those two constituencies. I am just following the pattern established by the commission in regard to the naming of the different constituencies. Nobody in the past worried whether it was North County Dublin or Dublin Fingal. The people concerned still continued to live and vote there.

Mr. Boland:

The people of that area do not wish to become part of Greater Dublin. They do not wish to be taken into this great, amorphous block and be described as part of Dublin North or anything else. They believe they live in the county, outside Dublin, that they live in Fingal. The Minister and his colleagues are forcing the old traditions away from Fingal and forcing it into Dublin city, depriving it of its heritage and its separate identity. I do not believe that the Minister or his colleagues will be thanked for doing that. I make a final appeal to the Minister to consider this suggestion once again before the Report Stage. The Minister pointed out on the last occasion that there was no urgency about this Bill and that we only had it before the House because the draftsman prepared it after the commission had made their submission. Therefore there should be no problem in taking the Report Stage at a later date and allowing further consideration of my suggestion.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:

Under the Order of the House, the Bill finishes at 4.15. That is already agreed.

Mr. Boland:

No. All that is on the Order of Business is, "Electoral Bill, Committee Stage".

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:

All Stages.

Mr. Boland:

The Order of Business does not say that.

Mr. Tully:

Paragraph (iii) of the motion is the relevant part.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:

It is all Stages.

Mr. Boland:

I was reading Item 13 in isolation.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."

The Committee divided: Tá, 58; Níl, 30.

Tá

• Allen, Lorcan.
• Andrews, David.
• Andrews, Niall.
• Aylward, Liam.
• Barrett, Sylvester.
• Brady, Gerard.
• Brady, Vincent.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Burke, Raphael P.
• Callanan, John.
• Calleary, Seán.
• Colley, George.
• Collins, Gerard.
• Conaghan, Hugh.
• Connolly, Gerard.
• Crinion, Brendan.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Davern, Noel.
• de Valera, Sile.
• Doherty, Seán.
• Farrell, Joe.
• Faulkner, Pádraig.
• Filgate, Eddie.
• Fitzgerald, Gene.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Dublin South Central).
• Fitzsimons, James N.
• Flynn, Pádraig.
• French, Seán.
• Gallagher, Dennis.
• Geoghegan-Quinn, Maire.
• Gibbons, Jim.
• Haughey, Charles J.
• Herbert, Michael.
• Keegan, Seán.
• Killeen, Tim.
• Lemass, Eileen.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Leonard, Jimmy.
• Leonard, Tom.
• Leyden, Terry.
• McCreevy, Charlie.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacSharry, Ray.
• Meaney, Tom.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Moore, Seán.
• Morley, P.J.
• Noonan, Michael.
• O'Connor, Timothy C.
• O'Donoghue, Martin.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Kennedy, Michael.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Malley, Desmond. Power, Paddy.
• Smith, Michael.
• Wilson, John P.
• Woods, Michael J.

Níl

• Barry, Myra.
• Barry, Peter.
• Barry, Richard.
• Begley, Michael.
• Boland, John.
• Bruton, John.
• Deasy, Martin A.
• Enright, Thomas W.
• FitzGerald, Garret.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Cavan-Monaghan).
• Gilhawley, Eugene.
• Harte, Patrick D.
• Hegarty, Paddy.
• Keating, Michael.
• Kelly, John.
• Burke, Joan.
• Burke, Liam.
• Conlan, John F.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Cosgrave, Michael J.
• D'Arcy, Michael J.
• Kenny, Enda.
• L'Estrange, Gerry.
• O'Brien, Fergus.
• O'Brien, William.
• O'Keeffe, Jim.
• O'Toole, Paddy.
• Taylor, Frank.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• White, James.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Moore and Briscoe; Níl, Deputies L'Estrange and W. O'Brien.

Question declared carried.

Amendment declared lost.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:

In accordance with the order of the House made earlier to-day, I now put the question. "That the Committee Stage of the Bill is hereby agreed to, that the Bill is reported to the House and that the Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed", put and agreed to.