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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Oct 1980

Vol. 323 No. 6

Johnstown Castle Agricultural College (Amendment) Bill, 1980: Second Stage .

: I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The object of this Bill, is a simple one: it is to permit An Foras Talúntais to sell or lease certain portions of the Johnstown Castle estate in Wexford and generally to lease to the State parts of the estate from time to time if required. This is not possible at present because of the existing legal position.

The estate, comprising about 1,000 acres, was donated to the nation as a free gift in 1944 and acceptance was ratified by the Johnstown Castle Agricultural College Act, 1945.

When An Foras Talúntais were set up in 1958, the estate, with the consent of the donors, was transferred to that body under the Johnstown Castle Agricultural College (Amendment) Act, 1959. The Act precludes An Foras Talúntais from selling or leasing the estate or any portion of it but in practice this has proved to be unduly restrictive.

As a result of requests from various interests for portions of the estate, an amendment of the existing Acts was contemplated as long ago as 1974. However, because of various complications, such as the amounts of land to be ceded and doubts about the necessity to obtain the donor's consent, amending legislation could not be introduced until now.

The specific areas which An Foras are to be allowed to dispose of have been finally determined and marked on the map referred to in section 1 of the Bill and this map has been deposited in the Ordnance Survey Office since 22 September last.

The areas concerned may be summarised as follows: 13.75 acres to Wexford County Council for housing and road-widening; 4.75 acres to the Meteorological Office; eight acres to St. Martin's Hurling Club and 11.5 acres for possible future disposal; these being mainly cottages and gardens on the estate, which tenants may wish to buy, and some small sites which will be cut off from the estate by the new roadway.

On the question of the donor's consent, the Attorney General's advice was that this was necessary only in the case of the sale of lands to the county council as the housing development might involve some restriction of the reserved sporting rights. In all other cases, including the general power to lease to the State mentioned in section 2 of the Bill, the consent of the donor was not required subject to the preservation of the sporting rights and the rights of way.

An Foras have obtained the consent of the donor in connection with the proposed sale of lands to the county council, thus leaving the way clear for the introduction of this Bill.

By way of explanation, the inclusion in section 2 of the general power in future to make leases to the State—for example in the case of a request for a site like that from the Meteorological Office referred to earlier—is to avoid the need for similar legislation at a later date. At the same time the power is sufficiently narrow to ensure that there is no danger of the wholesale erosion of the estate as a single entity. Such a development would, of course, be at variance with the spirit of the donation and acceptance of the lands as a free gift to the nation.

I have no doubt that Deputies will agree that this measure is a non-controversial one which should enjoy the support of all sides. I commend the Bill to the House.

: This is a Bill to amend the Johnstown Castle Agricultural College (Amendment Act) 1959, to permit the sale, as the Minister of State has said, of part of the estate to Wexford County Council for building houses, for road widening and to other bodies. Approximately 36 acres of land are involved.

I welcome the Bill on behalf of our spokesman, Deputy D'Arcy. We believe it is long overdue. The Minister has said that its introduction has been thought about since 1974 but, for different reasons, it was not found possible to do so until now. I believe houses are urgently needed in that area. I hope that the necessary transfer of land to Wexford County Council will not be delayed by other bodies.

The nation will always be grateful for the generous gift of Dorothy Violet Jefferies and Maurice Victor Lakin. Certainly it was a practical and useful gift which I believe was used very well and put to good purposes by the nation since that time. Indeed credit is due to all political parties for that. I think it can be said that in 1945 we in Ireland were certainly lacking in educational facilities for the agricultural community. Great progress has been made since then through the work of dedicated people in Johnstown Castle. It can truly be said that Johnstown Castle is an extremely valuable asset. I believe the State should have the right to make adjustments as it sees fit, regarding the overall use of the property and, in that regard, I agree entirely with the Minister and his proposals. The gift of this beautiful castle and its surroundings was subject to certain conditions laid down in a Bill passed in Dáil Éireann in July 1945, 35 long years ago. Those related to provisions for existing employees on the estate, preservation of the general ornamental nature of the grounds, the maintenance of certain rights of way and the preservation of the fishing and sporting rights to Mr. Lakin.

I have been informed that there is a large number of residents on the estate, living in about 40 houses and that these houses, the upkeep of which is very expensive, are of no use to the estate. The Minister, as a Wexford man, will know more about this than I do but I have been asked if these houses could be sold to the tenants, with legislation being introduced to that effect.

The fishing and shooting rights originally reserved to the owner are very valuable and could be assets to the nation. What exactly is the present position regarding those rights? In 1945, the gate lodge was reserved to the district jubilee nurse, free of rent and rates. What is the up to date position as regards this gate lodge? We all know that An Foras Talúntais are now in possession of the 1,000 acre farm, which is used solely for research. We must agree that a wealth of necessary knowledge has been, and indeed is being accumulated with long-term benefits to the development of our agricultural industry. This is of the utmost importance to every one of us here. However, greater use could be made of this huge acreage of land in the agricultural educational field.

Agricultural development is basic to the needs of the nation and agricultural education is basic to that development. We all know that the Department of Agriculture have found, and are still finding, great difficulty in securing suitable accommodation for young people who are seeking education in our agricultural colleges at present. It is great to see that so many are seeking this education but, unfortunately, the places are not there for them. During the debate on the ACOT Bill, Fine Gael speakers Deputy Bruton and Deputy D'Arcy pointed out that research and development should go hand in hand. It is very important, we all agree, that research information should be available and Johnstown Castle has played its part since 1945. It is also very important that our farmers should have the best possible education if they are to hold their own with the farmers of the EEC countries whose facilities and prices are much better than ours. In the technological age in which we live-especially as far as farmers are concerned, with ever-increasing overheads and static prices—it is imperative that all our young farmers are prepared for the competitive period that lies ahead. We need more agricultural colleges to meet the needs of the ever-increasing numbers who are applying.

: If I may interrupt Deputy L'Estrange, this is not an agricultural debate.

: I am not saying that it is, but I shall quote the Bill——

: I have given Deputy L'Estrange plenty of latitude but he should deal with the Bill which is a minor Bill giving the right to the Johnstown Castle authorities to dispose of a small portion of land. That is all that is involved in this debate.

: In section 3 lay agricultural colleges are mentioned and in section 6 the ornamental nature of the gardens, pleasure grounds and so forth.

: We shall take up those matters on Committee Stage.

: It mentions the shooting and fishing rights.

: I am sorry, the Minister should not interrupt. This Bill is only doing what the Chair says: it is a very minor Bill and we are not having an agricultural debate on it.

: I am not having an agricultural debate on it. Could the Minister inform me, as regards section 3, what exactly is meant by lay agricultural colleges? How do these differ from other colleges as regards rights for shooting and fishing? I could speak on agriculture for days but I hope that the State continues to utilise the facilities available at Johnstown Castle and improve on them in the interests of our greatest industry. Wexford, from where the Minister comes, and the whole country should consider itself lucky to have had so generous a citizen in that county in the past.

Thirty five years ago, Johnstown Castle was a new point of departure for a wide and courageous programme of research and development and today it stands as a monument more enduring than bronze, as a point from which really successful agriculture started. We would all have to agree with that and again thank the donors and everyone concerned. We are certainly in favour of the Bill.

: In the unavoidable absence of our spokesman for Agriculture, Deputy Bermingham, I am to say that we in the Labour Party welcome this Bill. Deputy Bermingham has asked me to say that he also welcomes it. It is a short Bill, an enabling Bill and nothing that the Minister has said in introducing it would give rise to any concern in these benches. However, there are a few brief queries which I should like mentioned when the Minister is replying, the first of which is in relation to shooting and fishing rights, as already mentioned by Deputy L'Estrange. The Minister might clarify whether it was the intention of the donor that the reserving of these rights, which of course we know and understand, should continue to his heirs and assigns or whether, at a certain stage, they revert to the State or become part of the State's entitlement. I certainly hope that this latter would be the case.

My second query is in relation to the consent of the donor. I notice from the Minister's speech that An Foras Talúntais have obtained the consent of the donor in connection with the proposed sale of land to the county council, thus making the way clear for the introduction of this Bill. Perhaps the Minister would indicate whether the problem of obtaining consent is one which will continue to exist after the life time of the present donor or whether again it is a problem of comparatively limited duration.

My third question is in relation to the choice that may be made between sale or lease of any part of the property. Do I understand correctly that the decision as to whether it is sale or lease is effectively a matter for An Foras Talúntais, rather than for the Government? Could I impress on the Minister that where land in trust is concerned, with the possible exception of cottages, it is our view that where there is a choice between the sale of land and the leasing of such land for the public interest, the decision should in all cases be made in favour of leasing rather than in terms of sale. I urge the Minister to consider this point when he replies.

: I was somewhat disappointed that my colleague in Opposition, Deputy D'Arcy, was not here for this Bill but he has sent an able representative in Deputy L'Estrange. The Deputy must have written Deputy L'Estrange's speech.

: He did not; it would not be the one of the Deputy would make.

: In relation to shooting and fishing rights, these have been retained by the donors. Section 5 of the Bill clarifies the position in relation to shooting rights and the right of way to a graveyard, which is also retained by the donors for their own use.

Deputy Horgan raised the question of leasing. It would not be appropriate to lease land to a county council for the building of council houses. They would not take it on a leasing basis.

: I said with the exception of housing.

: That is not on anyway. In relation to the donor's consent to further sales, consent will not be required after the death of the donor. I will get the Attorney General's opinion on that but I feel that each case will have to be taken on its merits where there is a question of leasing or sale.

Deputy L'Estrange mentioned the question of a lay agricultural college. The college was used for horticultural courses up to the time the institute took it over for research into soil and science. The Johnstown Castle Agricultural Colleges Act, 1959, is somewhat misleading. One would think it dealt with an agricultural college when in fact it only dealt with the handing over of the building to the Agricultural Institute for science and research. The 1945 Act does not define a lay agricultural college as such but we assume it means an institution like the present agricultural and horticultural colleges.

: There are 40 houses on the estate.

: It is the intention to sell to the tenants. Since I took up this position I have been anxious to look after my constituents so as to ensure that they would have an opportunity of buying these houses and to facilitate the people in relation to road widening and in relation to county council housing.

: I do not see any provision for selling the houses in this Bill. Does the Minister intend to introduce more legislation?

: No, that is not necessary.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 4 November 1980.

: We will only have a very small drop of the next Bill.

: Just a tot. It is hardly worth while commencing.

: It seems ridiculous, with four minutes to go. I am easy. I do not mind if the Minister wishes to start.

: If we have agreement we had better leave it. I do not see much point in starting my speech.

: The Chair agrees. We will wait a minute or two and then proceed with Private Members' Business.

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