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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 4 Nov 1980

Vol. 323 No. 8

Ceisteanna—Questions . Oral Answers . - Ministers and Secretaries Act

30.

asked the Minister for the Public Service if he has any proposals to amend the Ministers and Secretaries Act, 1924 or to introduce new legislation which would allow for greater individual responsibility to be accepted by public servants.

: I have no proposals at the moment to introduce such legislation.

: Might it not be timely to consider the possibility of introducing such proposals since such action might prove an incentive to people who advise Ministers and Ministers of State, who accept responsibility in public, to be somewhat more publicly accountable, along the lines of other open democracies in which it is possible during discussion to tease out the thinking behind decisions instead of having to accept the bland type of reply that one is given often in a parliament like this? Would the Minister consider reviewing the degree of access to the origin of decisions in the context of that being something that would be good in itself?

: Perhaps the Deputy is aware that there is considerable discussion in progress in this area in the light of the Devlin Report. It was recognised in the Devlin Report that the volume of public business had grown well beyond the point where a Minister could exercise personal detailed supervision of every decision of his Department. A good deal of work has been done in this area and both the Department of Health and the Department of Transport have been reorganised on the lines suggested by Devlin. That has been done on a nonstatutory basis. The present programme of restructuring is not directed at producing any statutory change at this time but in any further discussions that take place I will keep in mind what the Deputy says.

: I would not be concerned about whether a change was statutory but would the Minister agree, particularly in view of the admission he has just made, that it is impossible for a Minister to oversee every minute decision? Indeed, it would not be desirable that that would be the position but there should be more accountability by the people who make the decisions in those circumstances.

: I think what the Deputy has in mind is the question of the implementation of those decisions rather than the actual decision-making procedure. I agree that what he suggests would be good, especially now that the ombudsman legislation has been passed, and to that extent I shall consider what he has said.

: Since the Minister agrees that my suggestion is good, will he take it up and come back to the House at some stage with some positive measure to give effect to it, especially in view of the day-to-day situation whereby, effectively, Ministers rubber-stamp decisions? These decisions should be more open to public scrutiny.

: I am not sure of what the Deputy means when he refers to Ministers rubber stamping decisions. Most of the Ministers I know make their own decisions.

: How many Ministers are known to the Minister of State who do not make their own decisions?

: Perhaps those were in office between 1973 and 1977.

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