asked the Minister for Education if he will outline in respect of the school transport service in County Waterford the reason there has been a curtailment in the availability of and access to the service for children attending schools in Dungarvan and Cappoquin; and if any directions have been issued in respect of the school transport scheme in County Waterford.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - School Transport Service.
24.
There has been no change in the operation of the school transport scheme in County Waterford and no directions have been issued in respect of this service.
All students applying and eligible for free transport to the post-primary centres of Dungarvan and Cappoquin continue to be catered for.
I cannot take the Minister's answer as being correct. In a number of cases children who have been attending schools in Dungarvan for one year, two years or three years have been refused transport to Dungarvan because the bus is full. Is the Minister aware that the Department are not meeting the needs of children in the Dungarvan and Cappoquin area in respect of transport to Dungarvan schools, which up to now they had been attending and, because of the reluctance of the Minister's Department to put on the proper services, are not now able to continue to attend schools they have been attending for years?
The Deputy is not entirely correct. He is correct to the extent that he says that some students, up to the end of the last education year, have been enjoying concessions under this scheme, not through eligibility, in regard to catchment area transport. Now, because of the rearrangement of the service in that locality some of those students unfortunately do not enjoy this service now. There are facts which operate in respect of all the schemes that are carried out in every county where, because of changing circumstances which affect the eligibility of students for the service, they no longer can get them.
Does the Minister think it is educationally sound to take a child from a second-level school which that child had been attending for two or three years and to ask him or her to move to another school solely because of some interpretation of regulations at local level or by the Minister?
The Deputy must appreciate what is involved here. In respect of the agreement in catchment areas the teaching profession, the Department and other local interests agreed to certain catchment areas. This is a matter of policy. Is the Deputy suggesting that, where there is an accepted second level institute, the Department should be in breach of their own regulations and in breach of the agreement in respect of catchment areas?
That is mumbo-jumbo.
Surely the Minister, as an educationalist, could not condone a situation whereby the continuity of children's education is interrupted, as in the case instanced here by Deputy Collins, whereby a number of children in the Stradbally area have been forced to cease their education in Dungarvan schools? At least one of them has not continued her education because of the withdrawal of transport facilities. Can we hope that this situation will be redressed very shortly?
The students in question enjoyed a facility solely because of the fact that there were vacant seats in the bus going in that direction and they got that facility on the understanding that when the number of eligible children would have grown and if there were no vacant seats on the bus they were not entitled to them. Those were the conditions under which those particular students were granted whatever temporary facilities they had.
The whole problem could be solved by a slight extension of the scheme. Will the Minister agree to do that in the interests of the children's education?
I have much sympathy with the case made. I have already looked at the situation there and in other counties but I am confronted with the fact that an agreement exists in respect of catchment areas and I would have to get the agreement of all the parties who were involved in that initially before I could break the catchment area agreements.
Will the Minister try to reach that agreement with the parties referred to?
I hope that the Deputy and other local Deputies will help if it is a matter of a case being made that we should downgrade a certain second level institute.
That is not true.
That does not arise.
Ceist 25.
(Interruptions.)
I am sure the Minister of State does not wish to be disorderly. Ceist 25.
(Interruptions.)
25.
asked the Minister for Education if he will make arrangements to ensure that all children attending post-primary schools in County Waterford, who up to now have availed themselves of catchment-boundary school transport will be allowed to continue to use these facilities.
Catchment boundary facilities are a concession whereby children are allowed to avail of empty seats on school buses which are provided for the transportation of eligible children within the catchment boundary of the post-primary school concerned. The scheme does not allow for additional expenditure for the transport of catchment boundary pupils and as the available seats may be occupied by eligible pupils the number of seats available for catchment boundary children are correspondingly reduced. The circumstances of individual pupils have, accordingly, to be reviewed periodically.
Will the Minister of State say if he is prepared to increase the size of one of the buses using the route to which I referred in the previous question, namely, from the Stradbally area to Dungarvan, to ensure that the children who were accommodated previously may continue to be accommodated?
It is not possible for me to do that. However, I would like to point out to the Deputy that recently I sent one of my officers to examine the situation at the location of the schools and to have dialogue with all the people concerned. While I cannot say to the House that I could incur any additional expenditure on the transportation of ineligible students, it may be possible to make some arrangement whereby those who are a shorter distance from the school than others might be asked to co-operate in view of the greater need of the other students.
Is the Minister aware that one student, a girl who should be doing her intermediate certificate in the current year, who is one of a family of 12 and whose father is unemployed, has not been attending school since the start of the current school year because of the withdrawal of this facility? It is quite likely that her education will cease if the facility is not restored. Does the Minister not agree that a special case should be made for such a person?
I would regret very much the circumstances under which any student is kept away from school. However, the Deputy will appreciate that it would be impossible to operate a scheme where one would have to respond to any individual action taken by students or their parents in respect of what is not their entitlement.
I do not know if the Minister is aware that the child lives 11 miles from the post-primaty school she attended last year. There is no way she can get transport if it is not provided under the scheme.
I have told the Deputy that I am looking at that matter to see if it is possible for me to make any arrangement to improve the situation of that student and other students in similar circumstances.
I would appreciate it if the Minister could solve the problem.
26.
asked the Minister for Education if he is aware that children attending Macroom post-primary school, County Cork, are collected by bus at 7.30 a.m. at Carriganiha village and at Annagannihy bridge at 7.45 a.m. and that the children have to wait over an hour in Macroom before the school opens; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
These particular pupils have a standard of service within the limits acceptable for the operation of the school transport scheme. While they are delivered at the school centre in the morning approximately one hour before school starting time they have no appreciable wait in the evening after school before being transported home.
Will the Minister not agree that the situation with regard to transportation of children in the morning is most unfortunate? It is very difficult for young children to have to wait around on cold mornings for an hour before school opens.
I hope that the local school principal would be conscious of that and allow the children into the school where they could be working.
27.
asked the Minister for Education whether the present school transport scheme will continue unchanged beyond 1 January 1981.
The operation of the school transport scheme after 1 January 1981 will be governed by the budgetary provisions of 1981. Accordingly, I am not in a position to predict what changes, if any, may occur.
Does the Minister recall that in the earlier part of this year attempts by this side of the House to clarify his intentions with regard to the future of the school transport scheme did not receive any satisfactory assurances, that subsequently notifications of changes were issued with regard to the scheme and that they were withdrawn after intensive political pressure on the Minister and his Department? Does he now expect us to look forward to a re-run of that performance?
I am not in a position to predict what excitement or disappointment the Deputy will have in 1981.
Does the Minister not agree that the disappointment and concern will be that of the children of school-going age rather than that of people on this side of the House? Would he give an assurance now that the school transport scheme as from 1 January will be at least no worse than obtains at the moment?
The Deputy is long enough in this House to know that no Minister of State can give any assurance in respect of the expenditure of moneys in the following year.
The writing is on the wall then.
28.
asked the Minister for Education if any circular has been issued recently in relation to the operation of the primary school transport scheme; if so, if he will indicate the changes which he has made in relation to the operation of that scheme and in the conditions for the eligibility of pupils for the establishment of transport services; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
The answer is no.
Is the Minister saying that there were no directions issued from his Department in relation to the operation of the primary school transport scheme?
That is correct.
29.
asked the Minister for Education the number of schools and the location of each which have experienced the loss of, or deterioration in, the quality of school bus services in the school years 1979-80 and 1980-81 in Galway city and county; the number of school children who no longer benefit from the free school bus services because of these changes; and if he will take steps to ensure that these children will benefit again from these services.
30.
asked the Minister for Education if he will outline his intentions in relation to continuing the present range of school bus services in County Galway at that level; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
31.
asked the Minister for Education the reasons bus services to some schools in County Galway ceased in September 1980; the reasons these services were recommenced shortly afterwards; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 29, 30 and 31 together.
The operation of school transport services is subject to well-defined regulations, particularly as regards the eligibility of pupils on age and distance grounds and the minimum numbers necessary to start or continue a service. These regulations apply on a national basis. In Galway, as elsewhere, the pattern of need changes from year to year as pupils start or finish the various stages of their education. Thus, the rearrangement of services — including the curtailment of some and the expansion of others — is necessary according as the numbers, ages and locations of pupils vary in each area. Transport arrangements are also affected by the size of the vehicles available and the nature of the roads.
One common reason for the withdrawal of a service is a drop in the number of pupils from a distinct locality below the level required by the regulations. It is equally common for a new service to be introduced where a new need arises.
There is also a certain number of cases in which the distances of the pupils' homes from their school are overstated on their application forms. When routine checks disclose the correct distances my Department have no option but to withdraw free transport from those who do not meet the basic conditions for eligibility.
I regret that detailed information in regard to the pluses and minuses of the situation for County Galway is not readily available and cannot be ascertained without disproportionate cost and effort.
I can assure the Deputy however that the regulations governing the scheme are, and will continue to be, applied in Galway no less fairly than in the rest of the country. Even when services are withdrawn the Department are always prepared to reconsider their decision on new or additional information brought to their notice. In about five cases in Galway during the first few months services have been restored in such circumstances, either in a modified form or on a temporary basis pending further inquiries.
In an instance where primary school transport was withdrawn at the beginning of the school year and where it was subsequently restored pending further investigation, will the Minister state how long it will take to carry out that investigation?
It would vary. Depending on its urgency, such an investigation could be carried out within one month or six weeks.
Will the Minister of State tell the House if all investigations have been carried out in relation to primary school transport in Galway where the service was removed in September and restored shortly afterwards? Have investigations been carried out to consider whether the decision to keep the transport scheme was justifiable?
Offhand, apart from a case where I am receiving a deputation tomorrow including Deputy Callanan and Senator Kitt, I think the others have been dealt with.
May I take it from what the Minister has said that all school transport in operation in County Galway at the moment will continue in that way at least for 1980?
There can be no guarantee of that.
For 1980?
In one case I ordered my officials to go down and to allow the service to continue until such time as they could report to me any additional information which would make it possible to allow the scheme to continue, not just in 1980 but in 1980-81.
And possibly 1982. Regardless of the nice picture the Minister has painted of school transport in County Galway, is he aware that there is a certain amount of dissatisfaction as evidenced by a letter from parents and teachers to his Department?
I am well aware that in the operation of this scheme, as in the case of every scheme affecting people, especially children, there will inevitably be dissatisfaction. People who do not have transport are dissatisfied and those who have transport feel they are being collected too early or feel dissatisfied because they are required to walk 100 yards to a pick-up point. There will always be an element of dissatisfaction.
Question No. 32.
I cannot allow the Minister to say that a walk of 100 yards to a pick-up point is something about which parents would complain. Is the Minister aware that the pick-up point has been changed by half-a-mile?
I would ask the Minister to reply to the next question.
32.
asked the Minister for Education the reason a school transport service is no longer provided for the children of Maree, Kilcolgan and Clarinbridge, County Galway who are attending Moneenagrisha Technical School.
In places where second level educational facilities are inadequate, free transport is provided to the nearest post-primary centre at which adequate facilities are available.
I demand an answer.
I have called the next question and I would ask the Minister to reply. There are no further supplementaries on those questions as a considerable number have already been allowed.
Can I make a statement?
No, the Deputy may not make a statement.
I understand that the places mentioned by the Deputy are in the Oranmore catchment area where the post-primary centre is now regarded as adequate for boys and girls at junior cycle level and for girls at senior cycle level. Free transport out of the area to schools in Galway city is allowed to boys at senior cycle level.
Is the Minister aware that the pick-up point has been changed by half a mile? The Chair should allow the Minister to answer my supplementary question. I can kick up a row as other Deputies do and I demand an answer. I charge that this Minister of State and the Minister of State resident in County Galway are playing politics with the system and that is not the first time this charge has been made.
Question No. 33.
I did not hear the reply to Question No. 32.
That was the Deputy's own fault but I will not object to its being read again.
In places where second-level educational facilities are inadequate, free transport is provided to the nearest post-primary centre at which adequate facilities are available. I understand that the places mentioned by the Deputy are in the Oranmore catchment area where the post-primary centre is now regarded as adequate for boys and girls at junior cycle level and for girls at senior cycle level. Free transport out of the area to schools in Galway city is allowed to boys at senior cycle level.
We are back to the old question of the area in which the children live. Over the years they availed of transport to Moneenagrisha and I would ask the Minister to state why this is not now available.
A junior cycle service is now available nearer than Galway city and that is the one to which they are expected to travel.
Possibly some other body should make representations in this case and the request might be granted.
33.
asked the Minister for Education the reason a person (details supplied) in County Galway has not received his ticket for primary school transport.
Free transport is available for the child in question on a special school transport service to Barnaderg National School.
I understand that he is using this service.
34.
asked the Minister for Education if he will outline his response to the Hyland Report on school transport and the prospects of increasing the efficiency of the scheme.
The Hyland Report was published by the Government without comment so as to enable public discussion on its contents to take place before any decisions were made on the recommendations contained in the report. The amount of public discussion on the report has been disappointing and I would welcome further views. Meanwhile, a detailed examination of the school transport scheme is being carried out by my Department with the view to guaranteeing maximum efficiency.
Can we expect another debacle and another attempt by the present Government to raise a charge or change the service, as happened earlier this year?
I am not yet in a position to speak on behalf of the Government.
The Minister is speaking on his portfolio. Is it intended to institute a charge or to curtail the service?
I know that the previous Government advocated such an innovation and as yet this Government have not introduced it.
Does the Minister recall the actions of his Government in this regard and the fumbling, bumbling exercise we experienced in this House? Can we expect a repetition?
I recall the Deputy's disappointment when it was decided to continue the scheme.
Would the Minister not be open and come clean with the House and admit that he lives in daily dread of what the Minister for Finance will do with his axe to the school transport scheme before he disappears to Brussels?
In the matter of openness or hygiene I will not take any lessons from the Deputy.
35.
asked the Minister for Education the estimated cost of the school transport scheme in 1980 for (a) primary, and (b) post-primary schools; how this compares with the costs for 1979; and if he considers that a supplementary estimate is required.
The estimated cost of the school transport schemes in 1980 is approximately £9,438,000 in respect of primary schools transport and £9,642,000 in respect of post-primary school transport. The cost of the school transport schemes in 1979 was £7,737,713.70 in respect of primary schools transport and £7,787,551.29 in respect of post-primary school transport.
The question of a supplementary estimate is one which is being examined in the normal way.
When can we expect a supplementary estimate for the running of the school transport scheme to the end of this year?
I have indicated that this is being examined in the normal way and I cannot predict with any precision the day on which it will be taken.
There is obviously need for a supplementary estimate.