asked the Taoiseach if the Government support the demand of the H-Block prisoners that they be granted political status.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - H-Block Prisoners.
2.
The Government have, over a long period, made known their concern about the humanitarian aspects of the H-Block situation.
They have been concerned also about the very real danger that the H-Block developments could lead to an even greater level of violence than we already have to endure in both parts of this country.
All of us will, I am sure, understand and sympathise with the anguish and distress of the parents and families of the prisoners involved and of all those who have suffered loss of life or injury as a result of the tragic situation in Northern Ireland.
Before the hunger strike began, the Government conveyed their concern to the British Government and their anxiety about the possible consequences. Since then, they have been keeping in close and continuous touch with the situation as it has developed.
Since the loss of personal liberty is, of itself, a heavy penalty imposed on any prisoner, there is an obligation on authorities everywhere to ensure that, within the constraints imposed by security needs, prison conditions are as humane and as tolerable as it is possible to make them. Like a number of other people who are concerned about this issue, the Government believe that, if some adjustments could be made in the prison rules themselves or in their interpretation or their application, a solution would be possible.
The Government do not believe that political status should be an issue. Their concern, and I believe this concern is shared by all Members of the House, is to do anything they can to promote a solution so that more lives should not be needlessly lost. With this in view, the Government have indicated that they are ready to give their support to any initiative which would offer reasonable hope of achieving a solution and to be of any help they can in order to avoid the grave consequences which could flow from the present dangerous situation.
The Government believe that it is in the interests of the peace and security of all the people of this island that a way out of the present situation should be found. They further believe that an acceptable solution can be brought forward without the sacrifice of any principles which might be regarded as being involved.
I thank the Taoiseach for making it clear that the Government do not support the claim for political status. In relation to other aspects of his reply, I would ask the Taoiseach which, if any, of the five other demands being made by the prisoners are supported by the Taoiseach and his Government?
I would prefer not to go into details of that sort but, as I indicated in my reply, I believe that it is in the area of prison rules and some possible adjustment to them that a solution to this dangerous situation could be found.
Would the Taoiseach not agree that in a matter of such importance where human life is at stake there is both a political and a moral obligation on him as the leader of this country to indicate clearly whether he supports the five demands or any one of these demands? The House and the country are entitled to know precisely the position of the Government in relation to the demands. If the Taoiseach wishes I will list the demands to which I am referring.
I am well aware of the five demands.
Would the Taoiseach indicate the position of the Government in regard to them?
I believe that there is a political and moral obligation on all leaders in this country as well as myself to endeavour to take any action open to them to procure and bring forward a solution. As I have said, in my view it is somewhere in the area of an adjustment of the prison rules or their implementation or application that a solution lies. Further than that I do not wish to go at this stage. I believe that this is a matter of very great sensitivity and, as Deputy Cluskey has said, human lives are at stake. Therefore it behoves us all to be especially careful in anything we wish to say in this House or elsewhere lest in any way we contribute to increasing the dangers or hardening the attitudes. It is important that everything I would say in this regard should be carefully considered and if Deputies wish to question me further in these matters I would ask them to put down particular questions so that I could give careful, considered replies as the situation requires.
The Taoiseach was asked a specific question as to whether he supported the demand of the H-Block prisoners that they be granted political status. I listened carefully to his reply and, as I heard it, it was that he did not believe that political status should be an issue. I also believe it should not be an issue but that does not answer the question. The fact is that it is an issue and on behalf of the prisoners at the beginning and more recently it has been stated that this is the only issue. The question we have to face is the question we have had to face for 60 years in this State as to whether we support political status or not.
Would the Deputy ask a question, please?
I am trying to do so. Alleviation of particular aspects is something we should all like to see if it could be done without conceding political status, but I would ask the Taoiseach simply to answer the question put down to him.
I have answered the question and I refer the Deputy to the reply that I do not consider political status should be an issue; rather do I believe that a solution to this dangerous situation should be sought through some alteration in either the application or implementation of the prison rules.
That is a totally ambiguous reply. To say it should not be an issue, when it clearly is an issue, is not to give an answer to the question of whether the Taoiseach supports it or not. Would the Taoiseach for once give a straight answer to a straight question?
We do not want argument.
The question asks the attitude of the Government and I have given the attitude of the Government, namely, that political status should not be an issue.
That is not an answer.
The question asks about Government support and I took it quite clearly from the Taoiseach's initial reply that the Government do not support.
The Deputy was wrong.
If I am wrong the Taoiseach can now correct me. In the absence of such correction I take it that the Government are clearly indicating that they do not support the demand for political status.
We cannot have argument. A further question, please.
The Taoiseach spoke in his reply about some initiatives which could be taken and some concessions which could possibly be made to defuse the situation in the H-Blocks.
We cannot have argument.
The Taoiseach talks about some initiative being taken and concessions that could possibly be made to defuse the situation in H-Block. If the Government hold that view why has no direct representation been made by him or his Government to the British Government since the start of the hunger strike to indicate in particular what initative should be taken and what issues should be conceded?
I want to assure the Deputy that we are in constant touch with the British Government on the situation. The Deputy did ask me a question about whether I had made particular representations. At the time he asked the question we had not made representations at the same level as we had made the first representations. That is the distinction I wish to make to the Deputy. However, we keep in constant touch and have made our view clear at different levels from time to time.
One final supplementary.
In relation to the Taoiseach's last reply, I asked the Taoiseach in this House on two occasions over the last fortnight if the Government had made representations regarding the H-Block issue at any level and the Taoiseach clearly stated no on both occasions. Is the Taoiseach now misleading the House, or was he then misleading the House?
I have no intention of misleading the House at all. I recall one particular question which the Deputy asked me and in reply to that I indicated that we had made representations before the hunger strike started. I referred in my reply today to those particular representations. The Deputy followed that up immediately by asking me had we made representations since the hunger strike started.
I asked that on two occasions.
I cannot remember the other one but I indicated to the Deputy on that occasion that my answer was no.
On both occasions.
I do not remember the other occasion. My answer was no. I meant that we had made representations at the same level as we had before the hunger strike started. I want to assure Deputy Cluskey and the House at this stage that we have made our views clear to the British Government from time to time at different levels. We continue to do so as to the seriousness we attribute to this situation and the need to bring forward some solution.
I have allowed numerous supplementaries on this. I am calling the next question.
When was the last representation made, what was the nature of that representation and what was the response?
We have to move on.
Representations were made at the highest level no later than yesterday.
What representation was made?
I do not think it is appropriate that I should give complete details of this type of discussion.
I have allowed numerous supplementaries and we must now move on.
I wish to ask one final question. Would the Taoiseach not agree that the Government of this country have the same senses of morality as that of the leadership of the IRA?
I have allowed about nine supplementaries on this.
I have been on my feet for the last five minutes and I have not had the opportunity to ask a question.
(Interruptions.)
There is one straight question which needs to be answered. Does the Taoiseach's reply mean that he does not support political status for the H-Block prisoners?
That is a repetition of the question asked.
It has not been answered. Will the Taoiseach answer yes or no? Is he afraid to answer it?
(Interruptions.)
Order, please.
On a point of order. I saw the Taoiseach's lips moving when I asked that final supplementary but due to the noise I could not hear what he said. May I hear what his answer was?
I am indicating to the Deputy that all I wish to say on this matter is in the answer which I have given. If the Deputy wishes for any further information I would be grateful if he would put down a further question to which I can give a considered reply.
Any such question would be out of order because I am asking the Taoiseach to answer the question on the Order Paper and the Taoiseach has refused to do so. The Taoiseach is not prepared to give a considered answer. We know where we stand now.
(Interruptions.)