Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Feb 1981

Vol. 326 No. 6

Adjournment Debate. - Ballyfermot (Dublin) Primary Schools.

Mr. Mitchell

I thank you for allowing me to raise this very important local matter which was the subject of not one but three questions to the Minister for Education for written reply yesterday. The Minister chose to reply to a small part only of the questions asked. For instance, he did not say whether he had any knowledge of the threatened closure of the schools or whether he had any knowledge of the acute situation that had arisen in the Dominican primary schools in Ballyfermot.

The Minister replied only to the part of the questions asking what is the total capitation grant. He did not reply to the part of the questions asking how much did he estimate it would cost to run, heat and to maintain the schools. We needed that reply in order to help us to understand the problems facing the board of management of the schools. The board of management are in acute financial difficulties, being under extreme pressure from the banks because the overdraft is nearly £20,000. That is the main reason for the imminent closure of the schools: they have not got enough money to keep the schools open.

I am asking the Minister today if he will give an estimate of what it will cost to run and maintain these schools and if he will tell us the difference between that figure and what he is contributing to the board of management. I am drawing his attention to the fact that these schools had about 4,000 pupils at one time. They have now something like 1,600 pupils and this, of course, means that the capitation grant is greatly reduced, although the board of management have to maintain the same buildings and the same number of rooms as when the Ballyfermot population was at its peak. They are trying to do this from a greatly reduced capitation grant.

Not only is the capitation grant declining with the reduction of the number of children attending the schools — the number is still declining — but the schools are getting older and require more frequent repairs to maintain them.

I am pointing out particularly to the Minister the special problem in Ballyfermot and asking him to make a special concession to the board of these schools in the form of a cash grant to help them to pay off the overdraft, or something extra by way of capitation grant, or even some cash to pay the interest on the overdraft. I plead with him not to allow a situation to arise when the children will be sent home because the board of management cannot maintain or heat the schools properly. I ask the Minister to consider meeting the board of management, the Dominican Sisters and parents' representatives as a matter of urgency to discuss this special problem.

I appreciate that from time to time the Minister gets special pleas from communities throughout the country and that every Minister is afraid to create what might be regarded as a precedent. I can assure him a precedent will not be created if he makes a special concession to this school, because of the number of children catered for there and the size of the school. I doubt if there is outside Dublin a school of this size. I do not know of any other primary school complex which has catered for 4,000 children at one time. That is a very special consideration. If these schools cannot be properly heated the maintenance costs increase.

I represent this area and I am aware that all meetings arranged are attended by a big crowd of parents and others interested. The Minister acknowledges that education is a matter of great concern at the moment but I do not know of any area outside Ballyfermot where proper educational facilities are of greater interest. There are many misconceptions abroad about Ballyfermot whose image is not a good one because of adverse publicity and its size. That image is false: it is a splendid area to live in, there is a great community feeling and spirit there and the local community associations have had an active education sub-committee. The parents and people in general are determined to eradicate the disgraceful stigma that has attached to their area. They are anxious that it will not be applied wrongfully to their children, that their children will have better educational opportunities than they had.

For those reasons I ask the Minister to give special consideration to my plea. I am asking him again if he will meet the management boards and representatives of the parents and nuns and if he will visit the area as he did during the last by-election campaign when he was shadow Minister for Education. I would be delighted to bring him on a guided tour of Ballyfermot and of the schools in the area and I have no doubt his Fianna Fáil colleagues would join us. He could not fail to be impressed by the attitude and the interest of the parents in this great area.

I would ask the Minister to deal in his reply with the threat of closure and possible measures to avert it. I apologise for dragging him away from his very busy office but this is a very important local problem and I hope he will be able to give some ray of hope to the people concerned.

Mr. L. Lawlor

I thank Deputy Mitchell for allowing me a few moments to speak on this very important subject. Last Saturday afternoon I visited Ballyfermot and had discussions with the principal about the plight of these schools and the measures needed to rectify the situation. Some years ago there was tremendous growth in the areas of Ballyfermot, Drimnagh and Walkinstown and these schools are capable of taking 4,000 pupils. At present, however, the number of pupils is 1,600 and numbers will probably fall even further in coming years. The pupil-teacher ratio in these schools is excellent but the cost of maintaining such large buildings is enormous in relation to the capitation grants.

This type of problem will not occur in the future because we are no longer building primary schools of that type. I would ask the Minister to make available experts from his Department who could advise the boards of management as to how to utilise these buildings. The present situation cannot continue and there must be a change of use in regard to some of the buildings. Perhaps the Department of Education could use them for other purposes which would bring in additional income. The cost of heating the buildings has become prohibitive. Decisive action is needed and I would ask the Minister to report next week, if possible, to the elected representatives of this area on the measures he proposes to take to deal with this urgent problem. We should like to be able to report to the people concerned that assistance will be given. I would also ask him to meet a deputation.

Minister for Education (Mr. Wilson)

I welcome the opportunity given by the Deputy to indicate what is being done for these schools and for the financing of primary schools generally. At the outset the Deputy asked me whether I knew anything about this threatened closure. My reply is in the negative. The boards of management of the three primary schools operated by the Dominican Order in Ballyfermot have not indicated to my Department that closure of the schools is threatened due to lack of maintenance or lack of funding.

Since its inception in 1831 the system of national education has been one of local schools under local patronage and management receiving grant aid from the State to supplement local effort. This very principle is enshrined in the Rules for National Schools under which school management is responsible for the collection of such funds locally in supplement of the State grant as will ensure that school premises will be adequately heated and cleaned and kept in proper decorative condition. There is also an obligation on management under these rules to ensure that the schools are adequately maintained. These are among the most serious and important obligations required of management under the Rules and each member of a board of management is required to sign an undertaking that the Rules for National Schools will be complied with. With schools in general being able to operate, a board of management which finds itself considering closing the particular school for which it is responsible must consider how effectively it has been managing. Like everybody else, boards of management must establish their priorities and must adjust expenditure to income. The first priority must surely be to ensure that sufficient money is set aside to heat, clean and adequately maintain the school.

The Dominican Order originally operated five national schools in Ballyfermot. Not many years ago there were over 2,000 pupils enrolled in these schools. Due to falling pupil numbers in the area generally, the schools were reorganised, at the request of school management, into three full-range schools at the beginning of the 1979/80 school year and there are at present just over 1,600 pupils attending these schools.

The school buildings contain 71 classrooms in three main blocks together with an assembly hall and certain ancillary accommodation. It is, perhaps, significant that when my Department were making efforts to secure alternative accommodation for An Scoil Lán-Ghaelach Inse Chóir it was indicated to an officer of the Department that there was no spare accommodation in these schools. Excluding the three principal teachers, there are 62 teachers in the three schools of whom nine are engaged in remedial and special class duties. On this basis there should be at least nine vacant classrooms in the buildings. It would seem that the school is using all the available accommodation and this may mean expending money on heating accommodation which is not being fully utilised. Indications are that pupil enrolments in the area will continue to decline and it would seem that the school boards of management should consider seriously the possibility of organising the schools in two of the existing classroom blocks and vacating the existing 16 classroom block to the maximum extent possible with a consequent saving on heating costs.

As I said at the outset, I am glad of the opportunity this debate affords me to speak of the achievements of the present Government in improving the financing of primary schools. When managerial organisations were pressing for the introduction of a system of capitation grants a selection of school accounts submitted to my Department at the time and relating to the school year 1971-72 showed that the average expenditure was £6 per pupil of which parishes provided £4.85 and the State grants £1.15. There is no doubt that the introduction of the scheme of capitation grants in 1975 by the then Minister resulted in a marked improvement in the aid made available towards the cost of heating, cleaning and maintaining national schools. Unfortunately however, while the Deputy's party were in Government no steps were taken to ensure that the value of the grant was maintained. The rate of £6 remained unaltered in the financial years 1975, 1976, and 1977. Since the present Government came into office the rate of capitation grant payable to national schools has been steadily and substantially increased. Taking into account the minimum contribution required from local sources the amount of money available to the boards of management of national schools has increased from £7.50 per pupil in 1976-77 to £14.75 in the 1979-80 school year.

In the Estimates for the Public Service for 1981 a total provision of £7,750,000 has been made for capitation grants for boards of management of national schools. This is an increase of £1¼ million over the provision in the previous year. I intend to increase the grant further to £17 per pupil in the current school year, the year 1980-81, subject to the requirement of a local contribution of £4 per pupil.

As I have told the Deputy on a number of occasions, the amount of capitation grant payable to authorities of national schools is calculated by reference to general regulations and I am not authorised to make grants on an exceptional basis to individual schools.

The Deputy appealed for special consideration for the Ballyfermot schools. The Deputy mentioned that there is a wonderful community spirit in the area and that the community deserve special attention. I have very good friends living in Ballyfermot and I know the worth of the people in that area. That school complex is getting extra special treatment from the Department of Education as of now. For example, were the ordinary rules applied for the provision of staff in the schools in Ballyfermot there would be a saving of an estimated £128,000 per annum. In fact the Department of Education and I as Minister are taking cognisance of the fact that special aids and helps are desirable in the area to the extent of approximately £128,000.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.25 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 10 February, 1981.