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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Feb 1981

Vol. 326 No. 8

Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - British —Irish Discussions.

1.

asked the Taoiseach whether the question of a defence pact between Ireland and the UK is currently on the agenda for discussion between British and Irish officials; and whether this issue is likely to arise within the foreseeable future.

2.

asked the Taoiseach whether any reference has been made in discussions between himself and the British Prime Minister to a possible defence relationship between Britain and Ireland.

I propose, with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.

The subject matter of the joint studies commissioned by the British Prime Minister and me at our meeting in Dublin last December includes possible new institutional structures, citizenship rights, security matters, economic co-operation and measures to encourage mutual understanding. It has been agreed that the details of the studies should be treated as confidential for the present.

May I ask the Taoiseach whether he has replied to Question No. 2 which I put down to him?

I do not understand what the Deputy means by that supplementary. I have outlined the subject matter of the studies which have been commissioned. I said it has been agreed between us that the detailed operation of the work on the studies should be confidential for the time being.

My question is not about the studies. My question is whether any references has been made in discussions between himself and the British Prime Minister to a possible defence relationship between Britain and Ireland. This has been reported in the papers.

I see. I did not understand the Deputy's point. It would not be appropriate for me to disclose the different aspects of the matters which are discussed in a confidential session between the British Prime Minister and myself. It would vitiate the value of that type of personal discussion if details were to be given of what takes place. I can only refer the Deputy to the communique which we issued after the recent summit.

Will the Taoisach agree that, at the time of the first meeting, there were press references in The Sunday Times by journalists on this subject which has since been referred to in our papers here, and that the possibility of such a defence relationship is a matter which in the first instance should be considered in this House before it is discussed with any foreign country?

I would agree with the Deputy that any matter of major significance in regard to defence policy would be a matter of serious concern to this House.

I did not ask that. I asked the Taoiseach did he agree that it should be discussed first in this House before being broached with the Prime Minister of another country as is reported to have happened, and as the Taoiseach has not denied has happened.

The Deputy is making a certain assumption. I am sorry I am not in a position either to confirm or deny, because if I were to go into that area the whole confidentiality of these discussions would be impeded. As I say, I can only refer the Deputy to the official communique which was issued.

Could I ask the Taoiseach about the list he gave? I may have missed one. In specifying a list of items under discussion did he attempt to specify or certify the issues which were permissible and are being included, and thereby exclude the possibility of a defence commitment? Secondly, could I ask the Taoiseach is the traditional policy of neutrality under question at present arising out of the totality of the negotiations, the words used in the communique? Is it now under question?

The question of neutrality is subject to very considerable differences of interpretation in different people's minds. The position is that we are not a member of any military alliance.

I think that on all sides of this House there is an understanding that if, for instance, in the context of European political union a question of some defence arrangement for Europe arises, we would participate in such an arrangement. In regard to neutrality, we are committed to acting in co-ordination with our European partners in the political area.

Could I specify precisely what I mean? The attitude taken by——

Would the Deputy please ask a question?

——one of his distinguished predecessors, Eamon de Valera, was that we could not enter into a defence arrangement with Britain while they were in occupation of the six north-eastern counties. Does that proviso still attach to any discussions about neutrality?

Our position is that we were not able, and are still not able, to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation because of its implications for the Six County area situation.

A final supplementary.

Regarding our traditional stand on neutrality, is that stand, as far as the Government are concerned, a matter of principle or a pragmatic approach?

I have endeavoured to indicate what the consistent stand of Fianna Fáil Governments has been on this matter. We have not, for very good reasons, joined any military alliance. On the other hand, in so far as we are member of the European Community we are not neutral in so far as many political issues arising in the context of international affairs are concerned.

We are subservient to some other power.

I wish to ask a supplementary.

We cannot have a discussion on this.

We can because we rarely see the Taoiseach.

We cannot have a discussion at Question Time.

Is the Taoiseach aware that in the last reply he gave to Deputy Browne by introducing a reference to NATO he avoided answering the question put to him? Would the Taoiseach not accept that, whatever may be the desirability of confidentiality in the discussions with the British Government in relation to matters such as a defence arrangement between ourselves and the United Kingdom, that is something that must come before this House before it comes up in discussion with a Prime Minister of another Government?

The Deputy's question to me related to whether any reference was made in discussions between the British Prime Minister and me to "a possible defence relationship between Britain and Ireland." I indicated it would not be in order for me to disclose the details of any confidential discussion.

(Cavan-Monaghan): That is far from satisfactory.

The country will draw its own conclusions from that reply.

Due to the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I give notice that I wish to raise this matter on the adjournment.

I will communicate with the Deputy.

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