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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Mar 1981

Vol. 327 No. 6

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Social Welfare Benefits.

1.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny.

The person concerned claimed disability benefit from 13 January 1981 and has been paid from 16 January, fourth day of incapacity, to 23 February, date of the latest medical evidence received. He has also been paid pay-related benefit from 27 January, 13th day of incapacity. The delay in payment was due to the fact that he quoted his insurance number, instead of his RSI number on second and third certificates, dated 19 and 26 January.

Will the Minister say the exact delay in this case and will he say why there was no provision for the transition from insurance numbers to RSI numbers? Will the Minister also say why the Department did not make a provision to cater for the difficulties which the Department should have foreseen, a difficulty which will cause hardship to many people?

The Department made enormous efforts to deal with this problem and are surmounting it. This was discussed here before Christmas and I outlined the steps which the Department took to try to avoid this situation arising. In the case which the Deputy raises the failure to quote the RSI number is the problem. In relation to that the Department have conducted a campaign on television and elsewhere to highlight the need to quote the two numbers at this time. In addition, the Department are working very extensive overtime to solve this problem and to have the disability benefit system computerised. It is a major change and I would ask Deputies to bear with us while we get the thing back to normal. The other problem is that it has been possible gradually to increase the cross-indexation. That means that an insurance number is cross-referenced with an RSI number. When the system is completed we will be able to do that 100 per cent. It can be done up to 75 per cent and the problem would be solved if the RSI numbers were quoted in the first instance.

Surely the Minister would agree that if it is now possible to improve the cross-indexation of the old and the new numbers something should have been done for the changeover earlier in the year so that a person who quoted his insurance number would not have had a problem.

The problem is the physical size of handling 1.25 million files. I would defy any organisation in the country——

The problem is no money, bankruptcy.

It is not. In fact, the largest increases ever given in social welfare were given this year.

Not against inflation.

Even including inflation. The Deputies are trying to use a situation to get the most political coverage they can.

Will the Minister agree that it is obvious that adequate provision was not made for the transition to RSI numbers? I say that because I have some experience of computers. Will the Minister also agree that even the use of the initials RSI will lead to confusion because of the similarity with the initials PRSI? I had that experience this morning in the Minister's office. Will the Minister acknowledge that every day at the Department of Social Welfare hundreds of hungry people are queuing for their payments? Will the Minister agree to stop prancing around the country singing songs and to do the job he is paid to do?

Before I became a TD I sang songs for both elderly and handicapped people as part of my private life. It has nothing to do with my political life and if it irks the Deputy I am sorry.

(Interruptions.)

In relation to the problem ——

(Interruptions.)

Will Deputies please allow the Minister to continue?

In relation to the problem here, Deputy Mitchell has declared that he has some knowledge of computers but he will not find any group here who will handle 1.25 million files in the way in which the Department do. Every time there is a problem in Social Welfare the Deputies on the other side of the House use the occasion to berate the Government of the day and the Department of Social Welfare. My understanding of the situation is that we are over the peak of the problem. The records section is now completed. The records have been transferred within the time we indicated initially. I hope that within a short period the system will be restored to normal.

Question No. 2.

A Cheann Comhairle——

I am sorry, Deputy.

I wish to get in.

I am sorry, Deputy, I have allowed quite a number of questions.

2.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny.

The person concerned claimed disability benefit from 13 January 1981 and has been paid all benefit due from 17 January, fourth day of incapacity, to 16 February. He was certified fit to resume work on 17 February.

As the second and third medical certificates, dated 20 and 27 January 1981, bore only his insurance number, some delay occurred before they were associated with his first certificate which had been recorded under his RSI number. He is not entitled to pay-related benefit.

Is the Minister aware that I have tried every means to get the information to help these people and that his statement that I am only doing this for political purposes is completely false? Is the Minister aware that I have been in the House close to 20 years and that this is the first time that I had to resort to this method of doing my normal duties on behalf of my constituents?

Most of the Deputies seem to have been able to solve the problem by approaching my office and requesting clarification of cases, providing the social insurance and other numbers. When anyone does that I am glad to give whatever assistance I can.

I have made it quite clear that this method of doing it is the last method I would want to resort to.

A question, Deputy.

I want to make the Minister aware of this because he made a charge against me and others.

We cannot have a debate on this.

I want the Minister to be aware that every other method available to me as a public representative has been tried on behalf of these people.

(Interruptions).

In his reply the Minister stated that Deputy Pattison seemed to be unique in having difficulties and that other Deputies managed to get satisfactory answers. Will the Minister accept an assurance from me that in my experience never has it been so difficult not just to get satisfactory answers but, more important, to get the very means of subsistence for thousands of people who have to queue outside the Minister's offices? What will the Minister do about it immediately and how soon will these people get what they are entitled to?

I have cut the red tape anywhere I can——

Why are they queuing?

——to facilitate the situation. I assure Deputies that we are past the peak of this transition and that we will be out of it quite shortly.

Will the Minister accept that for those who are expected to live on the sum of £25 a week, because of the inability of the Department to pay them what is due to them the words "past the peak" mean nothing? Would the Minister agree that in these circumstances, so long as the Department are incapable of carrying out their duty to keep people above the starvation line, he should give instructions that supplementary benefit be paid at an adequate rate temporarily to deal with the problem?

I have given these instructions.

Would the Minister give the details? At what rate is the money being paid? I am not convinced by what I have heard that it is being paid.

It is not being paid.

I will pursue the matter further. The problem arises in associating such payments subsequently with the benefits which were due; in other words, it is a question of eligibility. We have a number of problems.

What instruction has the Minister given as regards payment in these cases?

Certain deductions are made from payments and I have taken that matter up with the health boards to ensure that an adequate sum will be paid to those who require it and that the question of making deductions initially will not be raised.

That is not the point of the question.

One may have other benefits coming to one and these are taken against the benefit which is given as supplementary income. I have asked that this position be set aside for the time being.

The Minister said that Deputy Pattison was——

I was responding to Deputy Mitchell at that time.

——not really playing the game when he put down so many questions. If we all let these questions run there would be hundreds on the Order Paper today. The Minister said he wished to make the system work more efficiently. That being so why is the telephone number of the Department, 786444, not being answered?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

There are 40 lines. It is not one number.

It is one number.

There are 40 lines but they are not adequate and we have had underway for some time past the installation of a totally new and enlarged PABX system. It is a question of when that can be completed. There are 40 lines in operation.

How soon——

A final supplementary from Deputy Bermingham.

——will it be completed?

I am calling Deputy Bermingham.

What instructions does the Minister give to health boards to ensure that supplementary welfare will be available to people in rural areas who do not receive a cheque? They wait until Friday morning for the postman to bring their cheque. In my area they find there is no health board officer available. He is there on Thursdays. What instructions are given to these officers?

If he is available he has not got the money.

Is somebody on duty on Saturday if people do not receive their cheques on Friday?

The Deputy is talking about a specific case in which he claims that an officer is not at his or her post at a particular time. I would have to make inquiries from the relevant health board about that. Each health board have their own responsibilities. We direct the health boards to be as flexible as possible with supplementary welfare benefits. In relation to this particular case, as I said to Deputy FitzGerald, I have issued further instructions.

What is a person who does not receive his cheque on a Friday to do?

These questions are related to individual cases. I have allowed a considerable number of supplementary questions and I am now going to confine supplementary questions to the question on the Order Paper.

Surely that is a matter for the Minister.

It is a matter for me to decide.

On a point of order, would the Chair not accept that in view of the sheer number of questions on the Order Paper — 51 oral and ten written — he should allow us to pursue them and have them clarified? In my constituency and in others people are hungry because they do not receive their money.

I am allowing only one supplementary. Only two questions have been answered in 15 minutes. I will not allow any further supplementaries unless they are directly related to the question on the Order Paper.

The Minister might consider changing the intitials RSI because of the confusion with PRSI. He stated that people do not use their RSI numbers. As regards the question I wished to raise today by way of Private Notice Question, which was refused, and which I also raised two weeks ago, that was not the case. The person submitted a medical certificate and RSI number and yet the Department had the gall to tell me today that his medical certificate was not supplied when the person had queued for hours and handed it in. Does the Minister still stand over his statement that the only problem is that people do not use their RSI number?

This is the last time this question will be allowed to be raised.

In a number of cases raised specifically by the Deputy either the RSI number was not given or the medical referee said that the person was fit to go back to work. That is a medical decision and not mine. Another major element is that governing contributions. Quite a few of them have not recorded their contributions for the year in question which means they cannot be seen to be in benefit. In some instances, this is due to employers not returning the information. In that case we provide credited contributions. We are giving credit even though we do not have the evidence in the first instance. We are doing everything we can to improve the situation. That is the reality of the situation. I accept that it is a problem but I am doing what I can.

3.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny.

The person concerned claimed disability benefit from 30 June 1980. She was not entitled to payment at that time as she had no contributions to her credit in 1978-79 the contribution year governing her claim. Special investigations were made by my Department and as a result credit has been allowed for the contributions due. Payment of benefit has now been made up to 26 January 1981, the date of the last certificate received. The question of her entitlement to pay-related benefit is being investigated and any benefit due will issue as soon as possible.

How long did it take to give this person the necessary credit to enable her to get the benefit to which she was entitled? I am aware that she claimed it in July 1980. How long did it take?

Six months apparently.

If on your record you are not recorded as being in benefit, an investigation has to be undertaken. The investigation which took place led ultimately to payment of benefit.

In January.

On 26 January.

When was all payment made?

All payment was made on 26 January.

To 26 January. When was it made from the Department?

After the Deputy put down a Dáil Question.

The date is not here.

When the Dáil question went down. If the Minister would answer my question I would not have to ask another supplementary. I asked a supplementary question which the Minister has not answered.

I cannot help that. This is an abuse of Question Time. Ceist 4.

May I ask a relevant supplementary question?

Would the Minister not agree that his attempt to suggest that he is cutting red tape by crediting people where the employer has not made the return is non-credible when it transpires that it takes six months for this to happen? That is not cutting red tape. It is tying things up in red tape.

Six months and a Parliamentary Question.

The Department cannot pay out money when there are no accredited payments.

The Minister said they are being paid.

The Department investigated and found that in such a case accredited payments would be appropriate. If a company goes into receivership the Department will give accredited payments subsequently, although the payments have not been made.

Would the Minister answer Ceist 4?

(Interruptions.)
4.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Carlow.

The person concerned claimed disability benefit from 5 January 1981 and payment has been made for the period from 8 January 1981, the fourth day of incapacity, to 23 February 1981, the date of the latest medical evidence received.

Payment of benefit was delayed as he failed to quote his RSI number on the medical evidence certificates dated 11 and 18 January 1981.

The Minister said previously that many Deputies did not quote RSI numbers. Is it not a fact that all the disability benefit cases I have submitted have the insurance number and the RSI number?

I would have to check that. The figure I gave yesterday was that, of those on the list yesterday, 25 per cent had not quoted the number. The files were there to be seen. If Deputies were not quoting in 25 per cent of the cases that was not particularly helpful.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of pay-related benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny in respect of his occupational injury and disability claims from 1 April 1980 to 2 February 1981.

The person concerned was not entitled to pay-related benefit for the period 31 March 1980 to 29 January 1981, when he was certified fit to resume work, as the weekly rate of occupational injury benefit and disability benefit paid to him in that period exceeded the amount of his reckonable weekly earnings, during the relevant income tax year on which his entitlement to pay-related benefit was based. In effect he was not entitled.

May I ask a question?

These are specific cases. We have had a debate on social welfare rather than questions.

In this case and similar cases in relation to the comment made by the Minister that he was endeavouring to assist in the transition period by extending the eligibility for supplementary welfare allowances, could the Minister make it clear whether he was talking about people already being paid supplementary welfare allowances, or whether he was saying people awaiting payment of these benefits in these extraordinary circumstances could now take up supplementary welfare allowances, and if it is the latter, could he say at what rate? Would the rate be similar?

This is vital information.

The rates vary in every case according to the number in the family, the rate at which a person is working, and so on.

May I intervene to ask the Minister——

The Minister has answered. I have called Ceist 6.

I cannot give a single rate at the moment.

Can I confirm that extra people are now being paid supplementary welfare allowances?

Will the Minister answer Ceist 6 please?

How many extra?

If the Minister does not obey the Chair we will never get through Questions.

6.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny.

The person concerned claimed disability benefit from 7 January 1981 and has been paid from 10 January, the fourth day of incapacity, to 10 February 1981. He was certified fit to resume work on 11 February. Payment issued at the maximum weekly rate appropriate to a single man. He was also paid pay-related benefit at £35.09 per week from 21 January, the thirteenth day of incapacity. All disability benefit and pay-related benefit due has issued.

The delay in payment was due to the fact that he is quoting his insurance number instead of his RSI number on his medical certificates.

It is like bingo.

We have made it clear to Deputies that they should get the other numbers——

(Interruptions.)

Would Deputies allow Deputy Pattison to ask a supplementary question?

Can the Minister state on what date this man was paid? Arising from his reply it is somewhat ambiguous when the Minister states that he was paid from such a date. That does not mean he was paid on that date or near that date. In these replies it should be made quite clear when the person was paid.

When was the cheque issued?

He has been paid from 10 January. He was also paid pay-related benefit from 21 January. I have not got the date on which he was actually paid.

I have answered the question. If the Deputy asks a specific question——

Would the Minister answer Ceist 7?

7.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny.

The person concerned has been paid disability benefit regularly each week from 1973 to 31 January 1981. She is required to furnish a medical certificate at monthly intervals only. Payment ceased on 31 January 1981 as no medical evidence of incapacity for work had been received since October 1980. A medical certificate dated 2 February 1981 was subsequently received and payment of benefit has been resumed. Payment of all benefit due to 7 March 1981 has now been made.

Is the Minister aware that certificates were submitted? In a case like this would it not be far better for the Minister to send a note to a person who has been on disability benefit for almost ten years informing her that the certificate had not been received rather than cutting her off without letting her know why she was being cut off? The Minister should adopt that system.

It would mean issuing 45,000 letters a week for those people alone. That is the number of people in that situation. That is what the Deputy is talking about in terms of the administration of any of these schemes. As far as the system is concerned, people who change from weekly——

There are 45,000 people on this system of automatic cheque issue, paid in advance of medical certificates. They know they must submit a certificate monthly. The problem would be having to send so many.

I have a relevant supplementary question.

Is it on this particular case?

It could not be. Ceist 8. Eight questions in 30 minutes.

8.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny.

The person concerned was in receipt of disability benefit at the maximum appropriate rate from 1973 to 16 June 1980 when payment was disallowed following examination by a medical referee who expressed the opinion that he was capable of work. He was examined on 26 August 1980 by a different medical referee who also expressed the opinion that he was capable of work.

He has appealed against the decision to disallow payment and his claim has been referred to an appeals officer who proposes to hold an oral hearing of the case shortly. When the result of the appeal is received his claim will be reviewed.

How long has this person been waiting for the appeal to be heard from the time he indicated that he wished to appeal?

His claim was referred to an appeals officer on 6 February 1981. The appeals officer proposes to hold an oral hearing into the case shortly. When the result of the hearing is received his claim will be reviewed.

I asked the Minister when did the claimant indicate that he wished to appeal, not when it was referred to an appeal?

He appealed and was examined by a second medical referee who also said he was capable of work. These cases occur all the time. When someone comes along and says he is incapable of work and it is doubted by the social welfare officer, the social welfare officer feels the person is capable of work and the case is referred to a medical referee after a certain length of time. If, as in this case, the medical referee finds the person is capable of work, if the person appeals it is referred to a further medical referee. On appeal for the third time it goes for an oral hearing. It is difficult for the Department to do much more in such a case.

I will allow Deputy Mitchell one final supplementary, provided it is relevant.

On this specific question and on a number of questions——

Not on a number of questions.

Is the Minister sure of the facts? I know the Minister is not intentionally misleading the House, but is the Minister aware that information was given to me which turned out not to be a fact? In the circumstances would the Minister agree to refer all these questions to the ombudsman when he is appointed?

This has nothing to do with the question before us.

This should be referred to the ombudsman when he is appointed.

Will the Minister reply to Ceist 9?

Is the Minister saying——

Will the Minister reply to Ceist 9?

I will raise it on the adjournment. It is unfair to be disallowing questions like this. Will the Minister allow a person's own doctor to attend?

I am not allowing any of these questions. These questions are specific, dealing with specific cases.

9.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of unemployment benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny.

The reason for the delay in payment of unemployment benefit to the person concerned is that at the date of his claim employment contributions had not been paid by his employer. Pending the completion of investigations the unpaid contributions were treated as paid for the purposes of his claim and all unemployment benefit due has now been paid to him.

This is a case where the employer's contribution had not been paid. Following an investigation they have been credited, even though not paid.

When did it first come to the notice of the Department that the employer was not fulfilling his obligation in regard to sending in contributions?

He claimed unemployment benefit on 17 November 1980. At that date he was not entitled to unemployment benefit as he did not satisfy the statutory contribution conditions. The last insurance card received from him was in respect of the 1972 contribution year. A whole procedure followed that and the Deputy must accept that he has been taking exceptional cases to try to highlight——

That is the whole point — they are exceptional cases.

The Minister said 1972. During all that period the Department knew about the situation but what have they done? The Minister is not correct in saying that the claimant is not entitled to benefit. This man worked for 40 years and I do not think he ever claimed unemployment benefit——

The person is a plasterer by occupation and there was not a record from the 1972 contribution year. It is not the Department's task to go out and get people to put in a record. The man has been given credit for contributions.

Who protects the employee?

We protect him by paying his contributions for him.

10.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of unemployment benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny.

The reason for the delay in payment of unemployment benefit to the person concerned is that employment contributions had not been paid by his employer at the date of the claim.

Pending the completion of investigations the unpaid contributions were treated as paid for the purposes of his claim and all unemployment benefit due has now been paid to him.

This is a similar case — indeed it is the same firm, which suggests the Deputy has taken a particular firm which had not made payments. This man was an apprentice plasterer who claimed on 20 November. I will not mention the company.

I have not taken the one firm. I have taken up the case of a man who had worked for 40 years without a break in employment. He made a claim for unemployment benefit and his claim was disallowed because the stamps had not been sent in by the employer. I am concerned about the insured person, the worker.

So am I, and I have made up his contributions for him.

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Minister said as an excuse that contributions had not been paid and I think I heard him to say that it was not the Department's duty to go out to see that the contributions were paid. Surely that is the Department's duty, to get out and see that these contributions are paid.

If the Department had 1.25 million staff to police everybody individually——

(Cavan-Monaghan): Is the Minister leaving it a free for all?

The Deputy knows that is not feasible. The PRSI system was introduced to deal with that problem.

11.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of pay-related benefit on the unemployment benefit claim of a person (details supplied) in County Carlow and when his Department will sanction this payment.

The person concerned is not entitled to pay-related benefit as the weekly amount of flat rate unemployment benefit paid to him during his recent claim exceeded 85 per cent of his net weekly earnings during the period from 6 April 1979 to the date on which his claim to unemployment benefit commenced.

Can the Minister say how long it took the Department to convey that information to the claimant?

The person concerned was in receipt of unemployment benefit from 29 March 1980 to 2 December 1980. As particulars of his earnings were not available during the 1978-79 income tax year, he was requested to furnish a certificate in April 1980. He did not reply to the request and he was again asked to supply the necessary details in November 1980. He supplied a certificate of earnings on 16 January 1981 and the necessary inquiries were then put in train. The result is that he is not entitled to pay-related benefit.

In view of the long delays in this and in other cases — the Minister has accepted this — will the Minister be willing to consider increasing the amount to be paid when payments are eventually made as a recognition that inflation has eroded the real value of the money in the meantime?

This is a case in which benefit was not due. I will note the point the Deputy has made.

12.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of unemployment benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny.

The person concerned is not entitled to unemployment benefit as he does not satisfy the statutory contribution conditions.

He has been asked to provide evidence of his employment to enable his contribution record to be established. His entitlement to unemployment benefit will be reviewed when the necessary information is to hand.

13.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will revise the arrangements whereby those in receipt of unemployment benefit or unemployment assistance on Whiddy Island, Bantry, County Cork, have to leave the island and travel to Bantry to collect their social welfare entitlements and instead arrange to have payments made at the post office on the island.

The present arrangements have been in operation for some considerable time and I am not aware of any previous representations for a change in these arrangements. However, I am prepared to have the matter examined and I will write to the Deputy in due course.

In the light of the Minister's initial examination of the situation on Whiddy Island, will he accept that the point I have raised is a sensible one? It has been made to me by a number of the residents of the island. May I take it that if it can be done he will meet the case made?

As I said to the Deputy, I appreciate the case he is making. I will have it examined as a matter of urgency and will come back to him as quickly as possible.

14.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Carlow.

The person concerned has been claiming disability benefit since 3 July 1980 and payment was made on receipt of each medical certificate up to 15 November 1980. There is no record of the receipt of medical certificates between that date and 31 January 1981. She was, however, paid over the Christmas period in advance of certification under special arrangements for payment to long-term claimants at that time. Further payments have also been made to her up to 23 February 1981 on medical certificates now received which cover incapacity up to that date.

On this question——

Does the Deputy's question deal with an individual case or is it a general question?

It deals with an individual case. The Minister has stated medical certificates were not received. Did the claimant convey a message to the Department that medical certificates had been given? Were the medical certificates repeat certificates?

The lady in question had been claiming disability benefit since 3 July 1980 in respect of a slipped disc. Payment issued regularly each week on receipt of medical certificates up to 15 November 1980. There was no record of the receipt of medical certificates between 15 November and 31 January 1981. As I stated, payment was made in advance of certification up to 3 January under special arrangements.

The question I asked was——

No. The Deputy may not ask another question. I am calling Question No. 15.

I have been told that people are handing in medical certificates at the Department——

Will the Minister please reply to Question No. 15?

The general point is that they are handing in certificates——

I do not think that would apply in this case which relates to a long-term claimant.

I am asking the Minister to reply to Question No. 15.

15.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of an old age pension to a person (details supplied) in County Cork.

An appeals officer has decided that the person concerned is entitled to a non-contributory old age pension at the maximum rate, including an allowance for his wife, with effect from 27 March 1980. The appropriate pension order book and arrears have issued. The delay in payment, which I very much regret, was due to the temporary misplacement of the pensioner's file.

16.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of an old age non-contributory pension to a person (details supplied) in County Cork.

The claim in this case, which was received in my Department just before Christmas, was first investigated by the social welfare officer on 15 January. He had to send written inquiries to elicit details of the claimant's bank accounts and creamery returns. He also had to make inquiries from the claimant's solicitors regarding the possible transfer of the farm.

The necessary information to enable the claim to be referred to the local pension committee has only recently come to hand. The social welfare officer is not, however, recommending payment of pension, as the claimant's means, consisting of half the weekly value of a holding, exceed the statutory limit laid down. If the pension committee's decision is unfavourable, the claimant will, of course, have a right of appeal against it.

There has been no undue delay in dealing with this case.

17.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare if his attention has been drawn to a report (details supplied) which confirms that a person in County Donegal is unfit for work; why the Department's medical referee again refused the application for disability benefit on 14 January 1981; and if benefit will now be paid immediately.

The person concerned has been claiming disability benefit continuously since 9 January 1976 and was paid benefit to the end of December 1977. Payment was disallowed from that date and his case was the subject of three separate appeals. His appeal for the period from January to 12 April 1978 was allowed but his claim since 13 April 1978 has been disallowed.

During the last four years he has been examined on a number of occasions by different medical referees and on each occasion he was considered capable of work. The orthopaedic report submitted by the Deputy was considered by the medical referee at the recent examination. He is, however, still considered capable of work and his case is again being referred for decision by an appeals officer. It is understood that before deciding the case the appeals officer proposes to hold a hearing which this man will be invited to attend and to give evidence. In the meantime an independent specialist orthopaedic opinion is being sought by the appeals officer to assist him in determining the appeal.

Will the Minister state who is entitled to attend an appeal hearing?

The person concerned and the person nominated by him to attend. I will get details for the Deputy if he wishes.

I would be obliged if the Minister would write to me about the matter. I want to know if a person is entitled to have his own doctor at the hearing.

He is entitled to bring a person and I presume that could mean any person selected by him. However, I will check on the matter and communicate with the Deputy.

18.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of occupational injury benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Carlow.

The person concerned claimed injury benefit under the occupational injuries scheme on 2 December 1980 in respect of an accident at work on 20 November 1980.

Following receipt of confirmation from his employers on 15 January 1981 regarding the occupational accident, injury benefit was allowed from 20 November 1980 to 3 January 1981, when he was medically certified fit to resume work. Payment of all injury benefit due has now been made.

Will the Minister state when payment was made? Again, his reply was ambiguous.

Payment was made on 19 February.

After the question was put down.

If a Deputy comes to my Department and points out a case where there has been delay the matter will be dealt with by the Department immediately. My office is there to assist Deputies in that way.

Is the Minister aware that we cannot get through to his office?

I am calling Question No. 19.

19.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny.

The person concerned claimed disability benefit from 11 August 1980 and has been paid all disability benefit and pay-related benefit due to 25 February 1981, the date of the latest medical evidence received.

Payment of benefit is made on receipt of medical evidence. Since December 1980 the medical certificates submitted by him have been received at irregular intervals. In the circumstances it was not possible to maintain regular payment of benefit to him.

20.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny.

The person concerned claimed disability benefit from 18 July 1979 and payment had been issuing at regular weekly intervals to 27 December 1980. As he did not attend for an examination by a medical referee of my Department, payment was suspended after that date. On receipt of an explanation for non-attendance, payment was restored and issued to 10 January 1981. Due to an error in recording the date to which payment was made, cheques ceased to issue after 12 January 1981.,

Payment for the period from 12 January to 21 February 1981 has since been made, cheques issuing on 13 February, and the issue of payment at weekly intervals has been resumed.

Will the Minister accept that this would have been a very simple case to resolve if we had access to his Department?

I do not understand the question. The Deputy has access to my office. Indeed, many Deputies use my office to pursue cases.

The Minister should try getting through to his office.

I am calling Question No. 21.

21.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Carlow.

The person concerned claimed disability benefit from 8 January 1981. He was not, however, qualified for payment as according to the records of my Department he had less than the required statutory minimum of 26 weeks of insurable employment since his entry into insurance.

Following inquiries it was ascertained that he had further weeks of insurable employment which qualified him for payment. All benefit due from 12 January 1981, fourth day of incapacity, to 19 February 1981, date of the latest medical evidence received, was issued recently.

His entitlement to pay-related benefit is being investigated and payment due, if any, will issue on completion of inquiries.

The Minister stated that his office will deal immediately with any inquiries if we get in touch with them. The Minister told us there are 40 lines at the number which I mentioned——

That has nothing to do with the question.

How many lines are working?

I am calling the next question and asking the Minister to reply.

If Deputies wish to give me a list of any special problems——

Please answer the next question.

22.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny.

The person concerned claimed disability benefit from 1 July 1980 and was paid from 4 July, fourth day of incapacity, to 15 July 1980, the date of the last medical certificate received. As it appears that he was incapable of work beyond that date further inquiries are being made to establish the duration of his illness. On completion of these inquiries any payment of benefit due will be issued to him.

Will the Minister state when payment was made?

Cheques were issued on 11 September, 17 September and 1 October respectively.

23.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the non-payment of disability benefit in respect of the period 13 January to 10 February 1981 to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny; and when benefit will be paid.

The person concerned claimed disability benefit from 2 December 1980 and was paid from 5 December, fourth day of incapacity. All disability and pay-related benefits due to the 24 February, date of the latest certificate received, have issued.

The delay in payment was due to the fact that he quoted his RSI number incorrectly on the medical certificates and other documents submitted in connection with his claim.

24.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason no disability benefit has been paid to date to a person (details supplied) in County Dublin; and when it will be paid.

The person concerned claimed disability benefit from 17 November 1980 and has been paid from 20 November 1980, fourth day of incapacity, to 3 January 1981 when he was certified fit to resume work. The question of his entitlement to pay-related benefit is being investigated and payment due, if any, will be made on completion of these inquiries.

There was a delay in payment in this case as, according to the records of my Department, he had no paid or credited contributions in either 1978 or 1979 and was therefore not entitled to payment of benefit. Inquiries were made to ascertain whether he had any insurable employment which would qualify him for benefit. On completion of these inquiries his entitlement to disability benefit was established and payment issued on 20 February 1981.

How long did it take to establish that? Will the Minister tell me when the cheques issued for those payments up to 3 January?

I told the Deputy in my reply that the cheque issued on 20 February.

There was a delay from 3 January to 20 February.

If there is no record of contributions there must be an investigation. The officers of the Department cannot pay money out without having a record of contributions.

Is the Minister aware that in this case the person concerned attended at his Department every single day for weeks and that he was hungry? His neighbours, because of the state that man and his children were in, got in touch with me. Would the Minister accept that this case highlights the collapse of his Department?

This is argumentative.

If the Deputy is honest he will recognise that this person was employed in Britain and there was a question of finding out what benefits or payments had been made in Britain. This took quite some time. The Deputy is trying to claim that the Department are wrong in everything but that is not the case. The Department process 17,000 payments a week for disability alone.

25.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the non-payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Carlow.

The person concerned had been in receipt of benefit up to 1 May 1980 when he was considered capable of work by a medical referee who examined him and payment was refused from that date. In view of the information now furnished that he was in hospital at that time payment has been allowed from 1 May to 18 June 1980 after which date he claimed unemployment benefit.

He was subsequently paid disability benefit from 15 August 1980 to 14 February 1981. Payment was refused after that date following examination by a medical referee who expressed the opinion that he was capable of work. He was notified of the decision refusing payment on 9 February 1981 and advised of his right to appeal but has not done so, to date.

The Deputy's question has, however, been accepted as a notice of appeal and, in this connection, arrangements have been made to have him examined by a different medical referee on 12 March 1981. He will be notified of the time and place of the proposed examination as soon as possible and when the result of the examination is available his claim will be reviewed.

26.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Carlow; and when payment will be made.

The person concerned claimed disability benefit from 8 November 1980 and has been paid all disability benefit and pay-related benefit due to 16 January 1981, after which date she was certified fit to resume work.

The delay in payment in this case was due to the change-over from insurance numbers to RSI numbers for the purpose of payment of benefit.

27.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny; and when payment will be made.

The person concerned claimed disability benefit from 11 December 1980 and was paid from 15 December 1980, fourth day of incapacity. In addition he has been paid pay-related benefit. All payment due to 17 February 1981, date of latest certificate received, has been made. The delay in payment was due mainly to the change-over in January 1981 from the system of insurance numbers to RSI numbers for the purpose of payment of benefit.

28.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny; and when payment will be made.

The person concerned claimed injury benefit from 8 November 1980 in respect of an accident at work on 29 October 1980. Before payment could be authorised on the claim it was necessary to seek confirmation from the employers that the incapacity arose out of an accident at work and the necessary inquiries were initiated.

At the same time the question of paying him disability benefit on an interim basis, pending determination of his claim to injury benefit, was examined but it was discovered that he had no contributions to his credit in respect of the year 1978-79, the contribution year governing payment of disability benefit on the claim. Further inquiries were, therefore, necessary to establish the duration of the employment in that year.

The two sets of inquiries have now been completed and it has been confirmed by the employers that he had sustained the injury during the course of his employment. Injury benefit was, accordingly, awarded from 8 November 1980 and payment of all benefit due has issued to him in respect of the period up to 16 January 1981. In the absence of medical evidence of incapacity he is not entitled to payment after 16 January 1981. If he was in fact incapable of work after that date he should submit covering medical evidence when the question of payment will be considered as a matter of urgency.

29.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny; and when payment will be made.

The person concerned claimed disability benefit from 10 November 1980 but was not qualified for payment at the time as, according to the records of my Department, he had not the necessary required minimum of 26 contributions paid since his entry into insurance. Following inquiries it has been established that he had sufficient weeks of insurable employment to qualify him for benefit. Payment of all disability benefit due to 23 February 1981, date of the latest certificate received, has been made. When details regarding his earnings are available pay-related benefit, if due, will issue.

30.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Kilkenny; and when payment will be made.

The person concerned claimed disability benefit from 9 January 1981 and was paid from 12 January, fourth day of incapacity. All payment due to 17 February, date of latest certificate received, has issued. The delay in payment was due mainly to the change-over in January 1981 from the system of insurance numbers to RSI numbers for the purpose of payment of benefit. He is not entitled to pay-related benefit.

This is a typical case where a man, his wife and five children were left without anything up to about a week ago from 7 January last. Is the Minister aware that this man was in hospital for some of that period? Would the Minister not agree that the social welfare contributors who pay so dearly for this benefit should not suffer in this way because of the change-over? Is the Minister aware that the change-over has caused suffering not alone to this family but to families all over the place and that it is grossly unfair to have a system which has inflicted so much hardship? I am familiar with this family and I know what they suffered. If it was not for the supplementary allowance they would have died of starvation.

If the Deputy had brought such a case to my attention I would have pursued it immediately on his behalf. The first problem is that the RSI number was not quoted in this case. I appreciate that that is not an answer but, unfortunately, when one is dealing with a large system and computers it causes a problem. It means people have to be written to to ask them what their RSI number is.

Should the Minister not have taken steps, even by creating temporary local offices of some kind, or increasing the number of agents, in order to provide against this kind of thing happening?

There are supplementary welfare agents in all the health board areas throughout the country. We have already had some discussions on that aspect of it. I sympathise with the problem. As a TD I have had to deal with it myself but by getting the RSI number and the insurance number I found the Department were able to help me.

31.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Carlow.

The person concerned claimed occupational injury benefit in respect of an accident at work on 31 January, 1981. Pending investigation of his claim he has been paid disability benefit as an interim measure from 5 February at the maximum appropriate rate. A cheque paying benefit to 23 February issued on 24 February 1981. Pay-related benefit has issued from 16 February 1981, thirteenth day of incapacity. There was no delay in payment as one certificate only has been received from him. Payment issued on confirmation from his employer that he was still absent from work through illness. He will be notified of the result of the investigation into his title to injury benefit.

32.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the reason for the delay in the payment of disability benefit to a person (details supplied) in County Carlow; and when payment will be made.

The person concerned claimed disability benefit from 29 December 1980 and has been paid all disability benefit and pay-related benefit due from 1 January 1981, fourth day of incapacity, to 16 February 1981, date of latest certificate received. The delay in payment was due mainly to the change-over in January 1981 from the system of insurance numbers to RSI numbers for the purpose of payment of benefit. There were no certificates received between 19 January 1981 and 9 February 1981. Deputy Pattison asked me earlier about sending individual letters. An issue comes from the computer in those cases. These are on the monthly system of certificates and these are the ones called "automatic". They are not put off immediately but if no certificate has come in, the computer will automatically issue a letter stating that no certificate is in and then approximately six weeks after the certificate is due and if nothing has happened at that stage it is put off.

The remaining questions will appear on next Tuesday's Order Paper.

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