Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Mar 1981

Vol. 327 No. 9

Estimates, 1981 - Vote 9: Public Works and Buildings (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a sum not exceeding £67,971,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1981, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of Public Works; for certain domestic expenses; for expenditure in respect of public buildings; for the maintenance of certain parks and public works; for the execution and maintenance of drainage and other engineering works; and for payment of a grant-in-aid.

—(Minister for Finance)

Mr. Keating

I will endeavour to conclude. I was making a number of observations about the deficiencies in the Estimate before us and I wish to refer particularly to the provision which it appears is about to be made in relation to Garda stations. I noted with some dismay that the estimate of total cost of the Garda stations and renovations to Garda stations which it is proposed to incorporate into this Estimate apparently is not yet available. I want to reiterate a special plea to try to ensure that standards in these Garda stations all over the country will be such as will not force gardaí to walk out of stations, as they have done previously. I would like the Minister to be good enough to tell us whether resources additional to what was spent last year will be provided in this respect. Any casual observer or any visitor to a Garda station often is quite appalled at the deficiencies there.

The conditions in relation to the Department of Defence buildings, particularly those in which servicemen and their families are housed, are abominable. Without labouring the point, I ask the Minister to make a pledge to this House that whatever resources are necessary under items 133, 134, 135, 133. A. 134A, 135A or other headings appropriate will be allocated so that these men, who, along with the Garda, prison officers and certain other categories of people, serve the State in a particular way and whom we seem to penalise for so doing, will be given decent conditions under which to rear their families. If the Minister had an opportunity to see or have reported to him the television programme last night or the previous night — which I did not see — in relation to such conditions he will know what I am talking about. They are abominable and inadequate and should be improved.

I want to mention, without apology to anybody, the disgraceful condition of this House. Even as I stand here I can feel the perspiration on my brow. The staff and Deputies in this House work in conditions that no self-respecting trade unionist would tolerate. I am aware that shortly they may be asked — perhaps should be asked, in the light of recent events to shoulder extra responsibilities in relation to heightened security in this establishment. If that is the case I trust that they will be consulted fully in advance and recompensed fully for any additional burden that will fall on them.

I ask the Minister when it is proposed to introduce whatever changes are necessary to ensure that the Deputies and staff in this House act in accordance with the planning laws prevailing at present. The numbers in each room and the conditions of the rooms are in breach of building by-laws and of planning laws. They are overcrowded and, as far as I am concerned, not acceptable. There is no point in anybody inside or outside this House pretending that we can do our jobs properly in present conditions which were never designed for the purpose for which they are now utilised. The manner in which we have traditionally accepted substandards in this establishment is another symptom of the lack of respect which this House has always shown for itself. It is about time that we brought Dáil Éireann into the twentieth century and gave it at least the facilities which any very modest business person in this country would have in terms of secretarial and other staff, technological aids, decent office accommodation and the possibility of having confidential discussions with people. The result of that approach would be of benefit to the whole country. It would mean a better, more efficient, more constructive and more productive Dáil, but that is not in this Estimate.

I want to say in passing, in fairness, that some genuine efforts have been made in recent times by the Government to come some of the way, particularly in relation to facilities, and with representatives of the three main parties working together on it there has been progress. I make a special appeal that the rooms in this building, which arguably in some cases might be fire hazards and in which too many people are working, would be replaced by new facilities to ensure that the people of this country get the best value for money rather than an overcrowded, inefficient Dáil, which I shudder to think of. I would like the Minister to tell me, if he has an answer, where the new Deputies, soon to be elected presumably, are going to find themselves housed. At present we are breaking the planning law, and that is an incredible indictment of the way we run our own affairs. It is a reasonable question because if we cannot manage basic facilities such as office accommodation and central heating in this House, what chance have we of managing the country?

In relation to office accommodation for staff generally, and specifically at this time in the Department of Health and Social Welfare, I ask of the Minister whether a heightened state of tension exists at present in these offices, if there is great discontent among the staff, particularly in the Department of Social Welfare, with their accommodation and if there is a threatened strike. If the mayhem existing at present in relation to the payment of social welfare benefits, with all its downstream difficulties of people unable to pay rent, unable to buy food, having to go to loan sharks and so on, is to be compounded by a strike over bad conditions, then the Departments of Health and Social Welfare would not be merely in a state of total chaos but severe damage would be done to the wellbeing of very many people. If what I have suggested is true I want the Minister to give a guarantee that it will be attended to without delay in order to ensure that there will be no tension, disenchantment or withdrawal of labour, due to bad office facilities in that Department.

I notice also under that general heading the new growth industry of employment exchanges and what is presumably increased accommodation in the Dublin area. Neither estimated expenditure for December 1980 nor estimated total cost of whatever is on hands is available in the Estimate. I want to ask the Minister if he will personally visit the employment exchanges in north Dublin city. It will take an hour or two. I want him to do it without forewarning, not as a guided tour. I want him to observe the degrading conditions in which both staff and those attending are obliged to operate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will appreciate that the Minister and his section are only an agency for carrying out works decided by other Departments.

Mr. Keating

I hope to convince the Minister that it is essential and imperative that extra resources are made available to ensure that people do not have to stand in virtual soup queues to line up for benefits which are theirs by right, not as a form of State largesse or charity.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair appreciates that but the provision of the money and so on would be a matter for other Departments.

Mr. Keating

I do not mind who goes down there, provided it has the desired effect. There is nothing like a personal visitation. I made this request before to the Minister for the Environment. I got a letter to the effect that he would make a visit. That is three years ago. No visit has taken place. Would the Minister give an undertaking that he or one of his colleagues will visit these exchanges and observe the degradation which prevails there, the bad conditions which demoralise and brutalise staff and the worse conditions in which people have to queue up publicly to discuss their most intimate family matters. Those standards belong to the days of Charles Dickens. They are not good enough for 1981. They should be a thing of the past. From recent observations. I note it is as bad as ever.

I should like to ask the Minister when the provision of additional accommodation will be provided in Infirmary Road. When will the work be completed? In reply to a Dail question some time ago, the Minister for Defence said that the work was soon to be completed. When are the works going to be carried out? Is the plight of men who have to live in some of these Army dwellings going to be recognised and attended to? The only way to solve these problems is to grant the resources to do so. The conditions for men in these barracks are disgraceful. It should not be necessary to continue raising it in the House or on the Estimate.

Since I contributed to the Estimate last week, when I belaboured the Minister in respect to a long-promised construction of facilities for the Gardaí at the entrances to Leinster House, I observe some movement in that direction. Would the Minister confirm that the billets or huts which will afford some shelter to the gardai at Leinster House or any other establishment where they have to do round the clock duty, will be provided as a matter of urgency? It would be a gesture of support for the job the gardai do, to which very often we only pay lip service. Let us now put our money where our mouths are. Will the Minister say when these very modest comforts will be provided? I would be grateful also if he would tell me how much money is involved in the new delivery office of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs at Fairview and when it will be completed?

I should also like to ask the Minister the up-to-date position with regard to the papal cross in the Phoenix Park. I was in contact with the Minister some months ago when it became known that there was a situation of fairly scandalous neglect in regard to what has now become, in the public mind, a national monument. At that time a number of colleagues of mine from all parties in Dublin City Council, which has a passing responsibility in the general Dublin jurisdiction, got together and were willing to assist by raising funds or whatever else was necessary to ensure what is seen as a very important national landmark is not left in a grafitti-ridden and semi-derelict state. I was assured at the time, in writing, by the Minister that everything was now under control and that the necessary improvements would be carried out. I pass the site every day. I made a cursory inspection within the last three days. I was not impressed by what I saw. We need to carry out urgently whatever works are necessary at this location to ensure that we do not disgrace ourselves by ignoring what is for many people, of all creeds and all walks of life, an important symbol, whether of celebration or historical importance. It is a reminder of a momentous occasion. The moneys involved are not great. The plans were drawn up even before the papal visit. It is a shame it has to be raised at all to get the work done.

While in the general vicinity of the Phoenix Park, I want to ask the Minister if he would prevail upon whoever is responsible — if it is Dublin Corporation they are at present being asked — to provide markings on the main road through the park, which is the scene of accidents every second day. Rarely does one drive along the main road without seeing a wreck on the side of the road. I saw figures two days ago in relation to the amount of cattle and deer killed or maimed by speeding drivers. I ask the Minister to take whatever steps are necessary to curb the speed, including consideration of providing ramps if necessary and, at the very least, providing a white line in the middle of the road. There is no marking of any shape or form on that road, on the mistaken premise that if you do not make it safe or allegedly attractive to drive on, you will discourage motorists. Motorists are driving on it in increasing numbers. I am not sure whether that is desirable or not. It is the shortest distance between two points. We may have to accept that. Consideration should be given to roads off the main road. One would be amenable to reducing the degree of access at present. If we accept that driving takes place on the main road, we should, for the sake of people who are being killed and injured and for the sake of their relatives, at least put decent markings on the road.

In the last few days we had an incident at one of our prisons, which shows the poor conditions of the staffing arrangements in those prisons. At a car park attached to a prison, due partly to the openness of the park we had an assault on two prison officers. Is it possible that the Minister, who I am sure joins with me in deploring that act, would be good enough to review the buildings in which some prison officers have to live, in which most park their cars, with a view to ensuring that if there is need for greater security and greater comfort for the men involved it will be provided. I believe that these prisons anyway are ripe for review in a number of respects not appropriate to this discussion. The least we can do, as with the Garda, is to show to people who have a very difficult job that we care whether they get mugged or beaten or have their property vandalised. At present in a number of these institutions one could be forgiven for thinking that they rate very low on the list of priorities.

The same is true — in relation to items 68 and 69 — of the courts, the children's court. I referred to it briefly last week but I must say once again that the children's court in the mentality of the Government appears to run parallel to labour exchanges. It is a crucible of hopelessness, a place where the lives of young people are dealt with on average within a time span of five minutes for each case in foul conditions that are smelly, ugly and sordid. Dealing with crime committed at any age is never attractive for parents of these children and those associated with dealing with them. We have had many cries and demands for decent, minimal facilities at the children's court. In the light of the fact that the total estimated cost of whatever improvements it is alleged will be carried out under this Estimate and the estimated expenditure for last year are not yet available, once again one must be of the view that no great priority or urgency attaches to it, as indeed it does not, in my view, in the eyes of this Government in relation to any group without a strong lobby banging on the doors of Leinster House on their behalf.

One could spend more time on this Estimate because it involves a great amount of detail but other Deputies wish to speak. I have had a fair opportunity of making some points. To sum up, I believe it is timely to consider some kind of supervisory management board separate from the Board of Works to control the efficiency, standards and conditions according to regulations and law of all these buildings in public charge. The reality is that most of them are managed inefficiently, wastefully. I ask the Minister to consult with his colleague. Deputy Colley, and ask him to apply his endeavours, in relation to his conserve-energy campaign, particularly to public buildings where nobody seems to mind and nobody is in charge of heat or energy.

Could each of these public buildings, for example, have somebody responsible for efficiency in terms of utilisation of space, light, heating and so on? How many times in these buildings does one see lights burning hour after hour needlessly? How many times does one see windows stuck, painted over years ago, in a half-open position? Similarly with radiators. Somebody should be charged with responsibility for trying to ensure, not that staff would be asked to work in anything but better conditions than at present — I know some of them have to put up with conditions as bad as Deputies have to put up with — but that people would be asked to understand increasingly that we are dealing with public resources and that the vast octopus of the public service and all it costs cannot go on forever as it is going on. With a little imagination, determination and leadership it is possible for Government offices and public services offices generally to be run more efficiently and productively. If that happened, these would be more satisfying places for people to work in and this would undoubtedly be communicated to the people with whom one has to deal, the public. At present the squalor of many of these offices is a mystery and I do not know how staff work in some of them. I would not blame them if they said they would not work there any longer.

I should be grateful if the Minister would try to reply as far as possible to the individual queries I put to him last week and today. If he does not have that opportunity now. I should be happy to hear from him in writing about the issues I have raised.

Mr. Tully

This Estimate, if the figures we have got are correct, deals with an expenditure of £67,971,000 as against an expenditure of £51,825,000 last year. a net increase of £16,146,000. I often wonder why the State has not made the Office of Public Works a full Department in its own right because if one looks through this Estimate and considers the tremendous range of work to be carried out by the officers of the Office of Public Works and by the Minister one wonders how it compares with some of the full Departments where perhaps the amount of money spent is very much greater but the variety of jobs carried out is not comparable at all. Some people try to give the impression that the Office of Public works is a glorified national building agency, an office through which money is directed and it ends there. Nothing could be further from the truth. The documentation here is sufficient to show that the work that should be properly carried out is of tremendous importance. The Estimate has subheads for new works, alterations and additions including furnishing of new buildings. I should like to return to this later.

I find it rather disturbing that despite the fact that there has been an increase in the Estimate of slightly over £16 million — I suppose to keep in line with inflation — there appears to be a substantial reduction under a number of headings. Perhaps it is not fair to ask the Minister to try to justify in detail all the points raised here but could he explain why there has been a drastic reduction in some subheads or how it is expected that the work can be continued if the amount of money made available is much less than formerly.

I should like to deal first with a number of local problems including the old problem that I have raised here by way of questions to the Minister on a number of occasions and on which I have got no enlightenment in the documentation here. That is the question of garda stations. I know that a sum is shown for new Garda stations but the extraordinary thing is that in Estimates for the Department of Social Welfare and other departments it is possible to give details of new employment exchanges, telephone kiosks and so on, but when it comes to Garda stations the details are omitted. One wonders if this is done deliberately. The same situation applies in relation to schools. Surely it is not because there are so many of them that it would be impossible to have them included.

Will the Minister give me some information in relation to an appalling Garda station which is on the direct route from the Border to Dublin, the Drogheda Garda station? There are proposals for the acquisition of a new site but as far as I am aware a provision has not been made in this year's Estimate for the erection of a Garda station there. Of necessity there are a great number of gardaí in that station who have to service an area adjacent to the groups who service the Border. They should have decent accommodation. Since I raised this matter with the Minister and since he promised urgent action nearly 12 months ago, we still have unpainted windows and doors, broken windows, holes in the floor for a toilet and cellars being used as offices where pieces of old broken furniture are lying around and electricity wires are hanging from the walls. If this was featured in a Charles Chaplin film we would understand that it was meant to be funny but it is not funny for those who are trying to live and work in those circumstances. The Minister said that he was not responsible for the furniture but the Estimate says — buildings including new furniture. Either the Minister is or is not responsible for the furniture but he is at least responsible for ensuring that there are proper toilets in the Garda station, that the floor is safe, that the windows are in proper order and that the station is properly wired for electricity. The Minister cannot get out of that. Unless something is done this will come up here again and again.

In Laytown-Bettystown where I live, provision was made a few years ago to erect a new Garda station to replace the Julianstown Garda station which is a house on the Dublin-Belfast road which has a lay-by which holds only one car. This house was never intended to be a Garda station but the gardaí have been doing their best. As the site has been obtained and since the cost of erecting a Garda station either in Drogheda or in Laytown will not get less it is ridiculous just to say that it is under consideration.

In relation to "the estimated total cost" in the Estimates in general the note frequently says that it is not yet made. When I came into this House accommodation was very scarce and the new building was being added. Apparently the estimated cost of that building was £620,000 but it eventually finished up at close to £1 million. The reason given to me for this difference was because nobody seemed to know what the cost was to be and the builder just kept on adding bits here and there. I know it may be necessary to upgrade costs because of increases in the costs in materials and labour but just to say that there is no estimate of cost is not right. No business organisation would start a job without knowing what it would cost saying that they would spend £X on it this year. That appears to be the idea behind a number of the things done here.

I mentioned two Garda stations specifically but there are numerous Garda stations in my constituency many of which are in bad condition. The people working there have been doing their best to make them habitable. Some of them get some co-operation from the Office of Public Works but some do not. I am not blaming either the Minister or his senior officials as they would not know what was happening at local level. However, the onus is on them to ensure that if somebody is paid to do a job that the job is done. Both the living accommodation and the Garda stations should be in a proper condition and should be kept that way. On the Continent the police stations are considered to be the public face of the Government and they are usually found to be spic and span. Our Garda stations should be kept that way. It is not right for people to go in and encounter, as I outlined in one instance, a dirty smell. The responsibility lies on those who are supposed to keep them in order.

Mr. McEllistrim

We are not responsible for cleaning the Garda barracks.

Mr. Tully

I disagree with the Minister. There is a contract for certain renovations and repairs to Garda stations which includes cleaning and repairing windows and that contract is not being fulfilled. The Minister should look up some of the older contracts.

Mr. McEllistrim

We are not responsible for the cleaning of Garda stations.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I understand from what Deputy Tully was saying that he is referring to the painting and cleaning of windows, their repair and so on. The actual daily cleaning would not be a matter for the Minister's Department.

Mr. McEllistrim

The Deputy was talking about a smell and general cleanliness.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That would be a matter for another Department.

Mr. Tully

If the Board of Works leave a Garda Station with two holes in the ground instead of proper toilet accommodation it is their responsibility and they cannot get away from it. Similarly they are supposed to keep the doors and windows in order. The Board of Works have a contract with people who are supposed to do that and if it is not being done the Board of Works are responsible.

A Garda station in Navan which was in operation for about 150 years was replaced by moving the station into a school which the Christian Brothers had left. That was an excellent arrangement but the old barracks is now being vandalised and in a few months it will be a complete wreck. When I enquired what would be done about it I came up against a blank wall. Neither the Minister for Justice nor the Minister here could tell me anything except that they were considering doing something at some time. A similar building in Bailieborough. County Cavan was shown recently in the newspapers as having been repaired and done up and it is the showpiece in the town. In Navan the building has simply been left to fall down. It is not good enough. The Minister is allowing State money to be wasted because he is allowing this building which was not suitable as a Garda station although it was a structurally sound building to be vandalised and he is making no effort to do something about it. When he is replying, I should like him to say if he has any idea about this. Does he remember that it was raised with him? Does he know what is happening?

According to the Minister provision has been made for a substantial sum of money to be spent on schools in the next 12 months. This substantial sum of money falls far short of what is required. What has happened with regard to the pre-fabs which were bought to make up for accommodation which was not available at various schools over the past 12 months? Why have the Office of Public Works not paid the money due to the local managers for those schools? As far back as last August or September they promised to pay this money and they have not made it available. Do they think the local managers have a pot of gold to which they can run every time they want money? Do they think the local people should be squeezed for every penny they earn to pay for something for which the Office of Public Works are responsible?

I refer in particular to what happened in Navan. There was quite a row about it. This is the sort of nonsense we see. and something must be done to stop it. I do not blame the Office of Public Works entirely for this, but there appears to have been a breakdown between the people who are anxious to have a school built in their areas and the Office of Public Works. Figures and dates were given by Fianna Fáil spokesmen at a local function and in this House, and we do not know whether they are fact or fiction.

Last week people interested in the Kilclone school had a meeting and the Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael representatives turned up at that meeting with letters from the Minister for Education saying that a bill of quantities was being prepared and would be ready in a couple of weeks' time, and that the school would go to contract when the bill of quantities was ready. Nothing could be further from the truth because the Office of Public Works told me, and they were right, that a firm had been selected to draw up the bill of quantities but they had not accepted, and it would be a couple of weeks before they would be available.

A school manager came to see me last year and he did not even know what was happening about a school which was to be erected in his area. A contractor had been appointed, but he could not find out whether the contractor was going ahead with the job, whether the OK had been given, or what on earth was happening.

These things are inexcusable particularly as we have reached the stage where second level schools are not able to take all the pupils coming from the primary schools. I know the Minister has no responsibility for initiating the building of schools. I do not blame him for that. When a decision is taken that a school is to be erected, the Office of Public Works are responsible for putting everything in train. They should also notify the people responsible at local level about what is happening and where they stand. People who are awaiting vacancies in schools should know whether those vacancies will be available.

The Minister may say it is easy for me to criticise, but people come to me with complaints. There is no use in saying: "Everything is all right. The Office of Public Works are doing a good job". In the main they are doing an excellent job, but these are matters which should be attended to and we do not want to lose the ship for a ha'porth of tar.

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Mr. McEllistrim)

There are no delays in my Department. When we get approval we go ahead with the schools.

Mr. Tully

I can give the Minister about 20 or 30 instances where delays occurred. The Office of Public Works do not appear to be proceeding as the local people seem to think they are with the erection and repair of schools.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister will have an opportunity to reply. We must all appreciate that the Minister and his Department act as agents for other Departments.

Mr. Tully

I did not hear anybody say they did not. I said the Office of Public Works are responsible for the erection of schools and additions to schools once decisions have been taken. I am making the charge that this is not the way things are being carried out. I could give him at least 20 instances of where the local managements and committees are under the impression that schools are being proceeded with, but the facts are——

Mr. McEllistrim

The Deputy has not named any case.

Mr. Tully

I named the one in County Meath. I mentioned Kilclone where nobody seems to know what is happening. Duleek school is another. What is happening there? If the Minister wants me to do so, I can give him details of at least 20. What has happened Ratoath? What has happened about the building of a safety wall and car parking facilities beside Ratoath school which were promised two years ago? There is no use in saying these things do not happen. They do happen. I am raising them because I believe it is proper to raise them here and give the Office of Public Works an opportunity to have them carried out properly.

The Minister talked about not being responsible for the furniture. He is responsible for the furnishing of new schools. I do not think he will deny that. I raised this before and I will raise it on every possible occasion. When schools are erected the floor coverings and everything else in them should be Irish made. The Irish Goods Council gave pupils a very nice brochure telling them how important it was for them to influence everyone they could to buy Irish because their future employment could depend on the amount of Irish goods bought. There was a lovely picture on the brochure showing a group of children sitting behind desks which I expect were supposed to be Irish made.

The Office of Public Works put French carpets in that school, French floor covering. There is no way in which any Minister can justify that. There is no way in which any responsible Minister can say that was the right thing to do. This is happening throughout the country at present. The Minister is not paying enough attention to practising what he is preaching. He should insist on Irish goods being used in Irish schools, in Garda barracks, and anywhere else where he is responsible for the furnishing.

The Office of Public Works have done excellent work in Newgrange. The Department must be congratulated on the work they are doing there.

I do not know whether or not it is their responsibility, but there is confusion. A number of young people who had not worked before and, in the main, do not know anything about stamping insurance cards or about PRSI started jobs all over the place. I do not think that anybody knows anything about PRSI, from what I see happening outside. Four or five people told me that they had worked for six months and, although they had submitted tax certificates and had asked for tax to be deducted properly, are having as much as £30 a week deducted from their wages by the Office of Public Works. That is wrong. Nobody in the offices, from the Minister down to the most junior clerk, will allow anybody to do that to them over a long period. Why should it be done on a labourer, on a gossoon who has just started work? Does he not count? Is he not a human being with human feelings, the same as everybody else? They are brushed off, they are away down the country, in Newgrange, near Slane, County Meath, and what about them? They do not count. But they do count, and count very much. What is happening there is happening elsewhere and it is wrong. The Minister may say that he does not know anything about it and his senior officials likewise, but somebody must know of the system of payment under which these things can happen.

I have always been a great supporter of proper arterial drainage. It has done a tremendous amount of general good in this country. However, I disagree with some of the things which are done. When a river such as the Boyne or the Blackwater is being drained, it is wrong, for instance, that in order to do the job properly someone should cut mature trees back 15 to 20 yards from the bank. That is not the right way to do it. There should be more planning in this regard. Some people have been looking at these trees all their lives and these trees were there before they were born. Yet, somebody, without by your leave, cuts them down. The argument may be made that the shaking of the trees would interfere with the bank because of its being cut back ten yards, or portion of the bank might fall into the river but it is a pity that this happens.

It is wrong that a lot of spoil should be thrown onto someone's small patch of land. In many cases it cannot be avoided, but if someone has only a small patch of land it is annoying to see 500 acres on one side of the river not having a shovelful of spoil and half of his ten acres covered with spoil. It may be much more convenient that his ten acres be chosen, but the human factor should come into it. An effort should be made to ensure that this does not happen. If damage is done and compensation is to be paid — and the Board of Works do give compensation — they should make arrangements to have it given with a good grace and quickly. It should not be put on the longer finger so that it could take literally years. Somebody in 1968 or 1969 is promised £1,500 compensation and is paid in 1981. What sense does that make?

In addition, we have the situation where, when the river through an area is being cleaned and sunk, it sometimes happens that a water system for one, two or a dozen people, or maybe a whole village or area, is undermined. I am not saying that the Office of Public Works should not sink the river because it will affect the local water supply. I am saying that, if that is likely to happen, provision should be made to have the existing water supply attended to by the Office of Public Works before the drainage work is carried out in the area. By doing this they will prevent an enormous amount of hardship and annoyance. I am sure that the Minister, a countryman like myself, realises this. He realises that if some old man or woman got in a water supply four or five years ago and spent all their savings on ensuring that they had water running to their houses——

Mr. McEllistrim

Could the Deputy give me the name of the person whose compensation was delayed by the Office of Public Works?

Mr. Tully

I can, of course. I can give the details of half a dozen. Some may have been paid in the last couple of weeks, but there are a lot in the Clonard area and around Kinnegad in County Meath. I said 1968 but perhaps it might be 1972 or 1973, around that period, from the time the drainage of the Boyne started until then. I wrote about these cases several years ago and again recently. That is how I know that there was a delay in payment. I shall provide the details to the Minister at a later stage.

Mr. McEllistrim

I am sure that that is not correct, or that there is an explanation. I would like to check it out.

Mr. Tully

All right. There may be an explanation, but as far as the explanation is concerned I will give the Minister an opportunity of providing that when the time comes.

I am sure that there is no explanation for what I was talking about when the Minister interrupted, that is about the water supply.

Mr. McEllistrim

We are trying to restore these as quickly as we can.

Mr. Tully

The trouble is that I do not believe that is the answer. What the Minister should arrange to do is——

Mr. McEllistrim

You do not get any indication when you are going to dry up a well.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sorry. The Chair will give the Minister an opportunity to reply to all these matters.

Mr. Tully

I am sure the Chair will.

Mr. Donnellan

It is good that the Minister is anxious to take part.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I agree it is good to see the Minister very interested in the matter, but that does not make it any more in order, as far as the Chair is concerned.

Mr. McEllistrim

I am just telling the Deputy that if he gives me the name——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If Deputy Donnellan wants to conduct this debate by way of question and answer, we shall be here until next Christmas.

Mr. Donnellan

That may be the best way of doing it.

Mr. McEllistrim

I was just telling Deputy Tully that it is very hard to anticipate if one is going to dry up a well because one is doing a drainage job.

Mr. Donnellan

That is the biggest problem, if the Minister is doing any drainage at all.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Tully is in possession and there should be no intervention from either side of the House.

Mr. Tully

I would not agree at all with the Minister. It is the easiest thing in the world to anticipate the depth of the existing water supply and the Office of Public Works know the depth. They are continuing with the sinking of the river and it is the simplest thing in the world to anticipate where trouble will be caused. Even when it is caused, the Minister might tell us how long it will be before action is taken to restore the supply. I refer particularly to Kilmainham, Kells. These people got a polite letter telling them that the Office of Public Works would consider any application that was made for assistance, but that is not putting any water into the pumps.

Mr. McEllistrim

We are trying to restore these supplies as quickly as possible.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Tully is entitled to put his question but not to ask for an answer across the floor of the House.

Mr. Tully

I am not asking for an answer now.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister will answer them at the end of the debate.

Mr. Tully

I hope so. What I am saying is that "as quickly as possible" is no use because that phrase from those benches could mean anything up to five or six years and the Minister knows this. It can be years and years before the action follows the words. I am not being critical. This has been the system of the Board of Works from the very start and I am not blaming them. It is what they have been doing and it is not the proper way. Would they consider altering their present system and having the matter dealt with in a different way?

Another small thing which causes a lot of annoyance is when the drains leading into a river are what is known as pegged — I do not know the official term but the countryman calls it "pegged"— and it is found that when the job is done one or two of the pegged drains are not done but some unpegged ones are. This has led to a ridiculous situation at present where a drain running across the back of Bettystown into the sea below Mornington village was pegged and supposed to be done. In the meantime, because this was happening, a contractor bought the land and proceeded to build houses on it and got permission to do so on condition that the drain would be sunk and the water taken away. What has happened? The Office of Public Works informed me in writing last June that they had decided to change the idea. The result is, of course, that the unfortunate people who are going to live in the houses will now have no guarantee that water will flow from them. It may be like Duleek. Here I do not blame the Office of Public Works. The blame may lie somewhere else. However, the River Nanny flows through Duleek. Some of the officials in the Minister's Department might know that river, but I am sure the Minister does not. It is a very small river flowing through a level part of the country for about only 15 or 20 miles. It flows through the village of Duleek. During the 1955 floods for some extraordinary reason it became so flooded that it knocked two road bridges and flooded the countryside. The bridges have been replaced and a few years ago housing schemes were built in the Duleek area, some of them near the banks of that river. Thank God it did not happen this year, but in February 1980 people went to work and when they came back the water was up to their windowsills. There is only one solution to this problem and that is that the four or five miles from Duleek to the sea, or at least to where the tidal water ends, be cleared up.

The Office of Public Works told me this scheme was No. 21 on their list of minor drainage work and it has now reached No. 10 or No. 11. This means that in the normal way it will be dealt with within the next century. Is there any way in which a particular case like this, where extreme damage and cost occur, can be brought forward? The Minister might say everybody thinks their scheme is important, and I know that, but this situation is unique. It is not an area with high mountains. In fact, there are only hills there, and the rest is level ground. Trees fell into the river and islands formed around them. A relatively small amount of money would remove them and save further flooding in that village.

Meath County Council are anxious to do this. I discovered a drainage scheme had been arranged half way between the villages of Duleek and Julianstown and that the council are responsible for cutting weeds and cleaning grass out of the river. I do not know what good that does but that has been the system. Yet, above and below, the river could be blocked by trees and they cannot do anything about it. Meath County Council are prepared to do this work if they are given the right. Is there any way the Office of Public Works could discuss this issue and the expenditure of the relatively small sum of money necessary to prevent this valuable property being flooded? These houses were bought on SDA or building society loans. If this work were carried out, flooding of these homes would be prevented. This is a simple matter. If the Minister looks at it he will agree it is something which could and should be done.

Some people are under the impression that once a river is cleaned under the arterial drainage scheme flooding will never happen again. I know that is not so. We have a typical example in Navan town, where there was excessive flooding for many years. The OPW drained the Boyne and for a number of years there has not been bad flooding, but there still has been some flooding. The area between Navan and Drogheda has not yet been done. I do not believe the cleaning of the Boyne in that area will relieve the flooding in the streets of Navan, but this matter should be examined again by the OPW and something should be done about it.

Tidal waters come four or five miles up the river and when it is in spate it has an effect on the amount of flooding which occurs upstream. I know the OPW are tightly tied by regulations as to what they can and cannot do, but an effort should be made to release some of those regulations and to allow work to be done which would relieve or prevent this flooding.

I had experience of a road at Clonee which flooded every year and caused great inconvenience to people using the main Dublin-Cavan road. All kinds of suggestions were made, including one from the Minister's colleague that we should dig a hole in a field and let the water run into it; but everyone knew that would not be very effective. Because the water of the Tolka would eventually go down to the East Wall the then Minister for Local Government, a Dublinman, was not very anxious to allow anything to be done which would mean extra water coming into Dublin. Eventually Meath County Council discovered there was a blockage — a fallen tree around which an island had formed — between Clonee and the city. We came to the Minister and after a great deal of persuasion got him to agree that it could be removed. That happened about 15 years ago and there has not been any flooding on that road since. This is the type of thing which could be dealt with in many areas by the Office of Public Works.

Deputy Keating referred to this House. The trouble with this House is that like many other old houses — and this is something the Minister will have to take cognisance of — schools, hospitals and so on, it is in a dangerous condition at present because the fire escapes are very bad. In my opinion the law is being broken not just by the present Government but by their precedessors and the position will get worse if additional Members come here because there is not enough office accommodation. Not alone are members working five, six and seven in a room, but the accommodation for the staff servicing them is overcrowded. No outside concern would be allowed to carry on under the conditions allowed here. Something must be done about this as a matter of urgency. This problem should not be passed over because it was inherited. That is what we did, but I do not think it was the right solution.

Reference was made to the entrances to this House. Today I was looking at the wall being built at one of the entrances. I do not know if it is intended to let the gardaí use it as a shelter, but if that is not intended, the wall is not improving the situation. We have come a long way from the little tin hut at the gate which had room for only two or three people, but we have not gone far enough. More accommodation will have to be made available for Members, staff and visitors. On a fine day it is all right if a group of children have to wait outside, but if it is a bad day it does not make a very good impression on them. These may be only minor matters, but they are of extreme importance and should get attention. People throughout the country occasionally read documents such as this and wonder what they are all about. They see how much it is proposed to spend on embassies abroad and houses for officials and then look at the relatively small amount which would be required to bring offices here up to date.

Mr. Donnellan

If the PLO had a patch of ground we would have an embassy there, yet they will not give us proper accommodation in Leinster House.

Mr. Tully

There has been much talk about the new post office due to be built this year in Navan. No estimate has been made as to the cost but the provision is £30,000. A new post office in Mullingar, which is smaller than Navan, will cost £500,000. If the Navan post office is to be built this year at a cost of only £30,000 we should be able to build houses for all the people who need them.

Mr. Donnellan

I have spoken many times on facilities in this House but the Minister and his officials have not paid the slightest attention.

Mr. McEllistrim

I will certainly listen to the Deputy.

Mr. Donnellan

The Minister may listen but he will not take action. I wish to refer first of all to the heating system which is rarely at the right temperature. This building is either excessively hot or too cold. Can the Minister give some reason for the inability to control the level of heat? I have posed this question many times without receiving an answer. The system is becoming progressively worse in the new block. Whoever was employed to erect this building certainly did a poor job. Ninety per cent of the Members complain that working conditions are almost intolerable due either to excessive heat or lack of sufficient heat. A large number of people are employed here and they have also complained. Once again I ask the Minister to examine the problem. If this debate did nothing else but achieve a solution to this problem it would be worthwhile.

The second problem is the overcrowded conditions in which Members have to work. I also include staff and Senators. Office holders such as Ministers, the Ceann Comhairle and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle have rather comfortable conditions.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are four people in my room.

Mr. Donnellan

That is a disgrace. I work with seven other people in a room measuring 18 feet by 18 feet.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I did not want the Deputy to think we were too comfortable.

Mr. Donnellan

I know that the Ceann Comhairle and the Ministers are fairly well accommodated but this does not apply to ordinary Members.

I was elected to a committee to investigate the working conditions of Members of my party. In the room in which I work there are five other Deputies and one secretary and we have been promised a second secretary. In the adjoining room there are six Deputies and two secretaries. That is on the third floor of the new block. Other rooms there are also overcrowded and about 14 Deputies and Senators work in the main party room which is very often used for committee meetings, parliamentary party meetings and meetings with outside groups. It can be fairly said that accommodation for these people is totally unsatisfactory.

On the second floor of the old building a number of our Deputies and Senators have been assigned quarters. In one room there are six Members and two secretaries and in another room — the most overcrowded in the House — there are eight Members and two secretaries. There is another room which is a little worse. It accommodates nine Members and two secretaries. I assume it is the Office of Public Works and the Minister of State who are responsible for providing us with accommodation. He has failed to do that. I know some changes were made over the years but they are minimal. It is time that proper office accommodation was made available for all Members of the House regardless of their party. As regards secretarial assistants party we have a total of 14——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Secretarial assistants are not a matter for the Board of Works but for the Minister for Finance.

Mr. Donnellan

I am under the impression that the Minister of State is his understudy.

Mr. McEllistrim

I deal only with the Board of Works.

Mr. Donnellan

The staff are accommodated in the same offices as we are. It is a good thing that we have the limited service that we have.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The question of accommodation is a matter for consideration by the Minister of State but the number of secretarial assistants and so on is a matter for another Department.

Mr. Donnellan

I hope the Minister of State will make accommodation available for Members of the House and their staff to enable them to carry out their duties effectively. If the Minister for Finance provided more staff the Minister of State, Deputy McEllistrim, would have the responsibility of providing accommodation for them. If that happened, where would the Minister of State put them? There is no point in having them unless there is accommodation for them.

This Estimate is for almost £68 million. My criticism of it is that there is only £10 million for arterial drainage. Not only is that so but I have had promises from you——

Mr. McEllistrim

From me?

Mr. Donnellan

Yes, and from your predecessor.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Through the Chair, Deputy, please.

Mr. Donnellan

I am not getting cross with the man.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I know that, but we must get on.

Mr. Donnellan

I am trying to stir him into a little action. I tried in the past with his predecessor and failed. However, one never knows. There may be something deep down there and it is only a matter of getting it out. I have had promises from you and your predecessors over a number of years——

Mr. McEllistrim

Yourselves, I suppose.

Mr. Donnellan

Yes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Through the Chair, please.

Mr. Donnellan

One of the schemes that money is being spent on now my late father was responsible for starting as far back as 1951. That is the third part of the Corrib-Clare catchment area. That is a terrible reflection——

Mr. Mitchell

Hear, hear.

Mr. Donnellan

Were it not for the fact that it was taken from No. 20 on the priority list down to No. 4, we would still be waiting to see one drainage scheme west of the Shannon. As long as Fianna Fáil are in power, we will wait another 40 years before they will initiate a drainage scheme west of the Shannon. There are many that need to be done.

As regards the Dunkellin, this is a small drainage scheme. The total catchment area is 91,000 acres. The amount that can be classified as severely flooded is 14,500 acres. The average farm size is between 25 and 50 acres and the number of farmers is 2,700. God rest the late Noel Lemass. He promised that work would start on that drainage scheme in 1972. Was he not a foolish man to say that and, not only that, but to put it on paper?

Mr. McEllistrim

I accept that.

Mr. Donnellan

It is a long time since 1972.

Mr. McEllistrim

The Deputy's party were in power since then.

Mr. Donnellan

I admit that. You are in power now and what are you doing about it?

Minister of State at the Department of Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Killilea)

Our best.

Mr. Donnellan

Which is nothing. I do not think the man beside you has any interest in it at all, but he is the boss. We discovered recently that it was still necessary to carry out a cost-benefit survey on the river before we can get anywhere. I discovered from the Minister's predecessor that they did not have the staff to carry out this survey. In the meantime promises were made through local representatives, such as the little fat man beside the Minister of State, that some action would be taken. I note from subhead G.I that the amount spent in 1980 was £95,000 and the amount proposed to be spent in 1981 is £100,000.

Debate adjourned.