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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 9 Apr 1981

Vol. 328 No. 8

Allocation of Time: Motion.

I move:

That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders—

(i) the Dáil sit later than 5.30 p.m. today and that the hour at which business is to be interrupted be 10 p.m.;

(ii) the following arrangements shall apply to-day in the debate on the motion in the name of the Minister for Agriculture relating to EEC agricultural prices for 1981/82 and related measures and on the amendment thereto:—

(a) the speech of the member of the Government opening the debate, the speeches of the first speaker for Fine Gael and the first speaker for the Labour Party and the speeches of the final three speakers shall not exceed 45 minutes each;

(b) the speech of each other Member called on shall not exceed 30 minutes; and

(c) the final speaker for the Labour Party and the final speaker for Fine Gael shall be called on not later than 7.45 p.m. and 8.30 p.m. respectively, and a member of the Government shall be called on not later than 9.15 p.m. to conclude the debate; and

(iii) the Dáil at its rising to-day do adjourn until Tuesday, 5 May, 1981.

Now that we can discuss this matter in a more orderly fashion. we are at this point entitled to more explanation than we have had about the reason for this recess. The suggestion that it was to enable Ministers to work in their Departments was greeted with hilarity on this side of the House, because no Governments have acquired such a reputation for Ministers not being in their offices but out nursing their constituencies as this Government have during their period in office. This is a matter of public notoriety and it is of deep concern in the public service that the work of government is not being carried out by the present Government because of the neglect by Ministers of their Departments. For the Taoiseach to suggest that that was the reason does not carry much credibility, not that there is much leeway to be made up by their being in their Departments. However they are not likely to spend this time in their Departments, having regard to past performances.

During this Dáil the volume of substantial legislation introduced has been negligible. There is no comparison between the legislative output and the performance of the last Dáil in serious legislation of a reforming character and the lightweight stuff we have had from the Government both in their previous incarnation and more particularly in the past year. The number of outstanding problems to be dealt with, the areas of reform that need to be tackled, the areas of economic crisis that need to be tackled, the areas of economic difficulty that need to be debated give us every reason for spending more time at ourwork rather than less. There can be no excuse for departing from the normal procedure of having the brief fornight Easter Recess and then getting back to work.

We have not yet started to discuss the Estimates. All the Estimates contain within them flaws of one kind or another, inconsistencies, improbabilities and deficiencies which have raised doubts which we have sought to raise in this House by putting to each Minister questions about figures which are clearly improbable and indefensible. Those questions have been ruled out by a consistent policy on the basis that these matters can be discussed on the Estimates. Yet that discussion on the Estimates which we were offered as the occasion for exploring these inconsistencies which cast doubts on the probity of the Government's approach to the Estimates of the current year is now to be denied to us for an additional period, with the possible intention of denying it altogether should the Taoiseach decide that he cannot continue any longer the facade of Government that he had been putting up and should he decide to go to the country before the barefaced character of what his Government have been engaged in for the past year and a quarter is further exposed. In these circumstances we cannot agree that the House should adjourn for this prolonged period. There is much to be discussed which we should discuss.

One of the major functions of Parliament is the examination of Estimates. Our present structure for doing this is deficient and inadequate and we propose a radical reform in this system, which in Government we shall implement to involve the examination of Estimat in advance rather than after the money has been spent. Pending that, we at least have a right under the present system to examine the Estimates in detail and to explore inconsistencies. In all the Estimates there are remarkable divergences from the pattern of expenditure last year which are not consistent with each other and in a number of instances they are not explicable in any rational terms. There are cutbacks in expenditure, for example, in the Revenue Commissioners which are quite inconsistent with expenditure on their part in terms of communication and which are inconsistent with the Revenue Commissioners collecting the kind of revenue that the Government intended to collect in the present year.

When one goes through them Vote by Vote one finds that the butchery done to the Estimates does not even show a sign of any common plan or intelligence. If the Government wanted to fool the people into thinking that the current deficit this year would be only £515 million, they could have at least set about the task more intelligently by going through the Estimates and pruning and cutting in a rational way which could have been explicable and defensible. But the barefaced manner in which this action was carried out, without any attempt to harmonise the actions of different Departments and producing results which are totally incredible, shows a contempt for this House and for democracy which does not have a precedent in this from in any previous administration. These Estimates need to be explored. We sought to explore them by way of question and answer and in every instance a direction clearly went out to dodge these questions because they were too awkward to be faced. Instead, what we got from the Government was a series of non-answers referring us to the debates on the Estimates which were to come and which are now to be postponed perhaps indefinitely, so that the lack of probity in these Estimates cannot be explored and shown up.

There are also many questions which we have been seeking to have answered but have been dodged day by day. Deputy Boland has given examples of this and the handling of these questions, the manner in which they have been ruled out of order, the twists and turns involved in this whole process and the haste with which the Dáil is being would up before the questions can be pressed to conclusion——

On a point of order. I suggest that it is not in order to discuss details of this sort on this motion. All that is concerned here is the allocation of time and the duration of the recess.

That is what I am talking about.

The Deputy can give reasons but he cannot debate every matter.

(Interruptions.)

You are scraping the barrel.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy FitzGerald please.

The remarks from the other side of the House showed the degree of defensiveness and fear that exists there——

(Interruptions.)

——fear of the people and their verdict, fear of having their actions probed in this House, fear of answering questions here and fear of having the Estimates examined.

The Deputy is talking absolute rubbish.

(Interruptions.)

I see that Deputy Moore is worried too. I share Deputy Moore's worry.

(Interruptions.)

Will the Deputy please confine himself to the motion?

I would regret if Deputy Moore were not returned to this House and I share his worries in that regard.

You should worry about yourself.

(Interruptions.)

I am having sleepless nights about my re-election as one can well imagine.

What about Síle de Valera?

The issue at the moment——

(Interruptions.)

I am endeavouring to speak.

Please, Deputy L'Estrange.

On the grounds I have given, an explanation is due to this House going beyond what the Taoiseach has given, which is palpable nonsense. There must be some rationale in this decision. There is no precedent in recent years that I can recall. I think it was in 1973 when the Government changed that the Easter recess was longer because of the need to prepare for government, just as the Taoiseach took several months for that purpose and is recorded as taking several months for that purpose when he became head of the Government. Apart from that case the normal Easter recess is two weeks and we need to be told now why it is being prolonged in this instance. I have given a variety of reasons why it should not be prolonged. There are reasons apparently motivating the Government into prolonging the recess and this House is entitled to a fuller and further explanation from the Taoiseach and I invite him to give it to the House now with rather more clarity and in a fuller way than he has done so far.

The normal procedure adopted in all the years I have been a Member of this House on the length of an Adjournment was that the Whips were consulted and agreement arrived at. I understand that procedure was carried out last week and the end of the Adjournment was fixed for 29 April. The House would resume on 29 April. Yesterday afternoon at what we understood to be a normal Whips' meeting the Opposition Whips were informed — not consulted, mark you— that the Taoiseach had decided the Dáil would not resume until 5 May. That is totally outside normal procedure. When asked this morning as to why the Dáil was going into such a long recess at a time of severe economic difficulty the Taoiseach gave the following explanation: he said it was necessary for Ministers to spend time in their Departments.

And the seven county councils.

Since December 12 months I have consistently stated what I believed to be the Taoiseach's attitude towards this Dáil and now we have had it this morning from his own lips. He regards the Dáil as something to be at best tolerated. If he can avoid having to come in here and face up to the normal responsibilities of a Taoiseach of Prime Minister in a Parliamentary democracy he will take every opportunity to do so. One can well understand his distaste at having to come in here and listen to the Opposition point out the defects of both himself and his Government as far as looking after and running the economic and social affairs of the country are concerned.

God knows, there is plenty on which to comment at a time when we have inflation running at 21 per cent, an unemployment figure in the region of 126,000 to which will be added approximately 50,000 school leavers next summer, when the Book of Estimates is a joke amongst economists and accountants, when foreign borrowing is at an unprecedented level and out national finances are in a complete mess. In those circumstances the Taoiseach comes before the House and tells the people, through the House, that he considers it more appropriate for his Ministers to be in their Departments for three weeks. Is the Taoiseach implying that they have been somewhere else over the last four years? We know the reason why the 15 second division was appointed. It was so that they could go into constituencies and concentrate solely on constituencies work and on party political propaganda. We know that and we suspected that many of those appointed by the Taoiseach to be Cabinet Ministers were not spending too much time in their offices and we now have it clarified by the Taoiseach that that suspicion was well founded and correct. When one looks at the performance of some of the Ministers of State——

The Deputy may not go into detail now.

If I were to go into detail about this Government's defects I would be on my feet here until 5 May.

I am not too concerned with that. I am just concerned with order.

In what respect am I out of order?

I would ask the Deputy to concern himself with the motion. We may not go into detail on Government administration or policy on this motion. The Deputy may give reasons as to why the motion should not be passed but he may not go into detail on aspects of Government policy.

I would like to give reasons in detail why the motion should not be passed.

Is that in order? Surely I can go into detail on that.

Provided the Deputy does not go into all aspects of Government policy and administration.

He is stuck for a few words now.

The play boy of the western world.

Deputy Cluskey now on the motion.

Good on you, Taoiseach, you picked some right ones, you really did. did.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Cluskey, on the motion.

It would be a joke we could all enjoy and in which we could all join were the consequences not so disastrous for the ordinary people.

There is some legislation we want to get through today, legislation to which the Opposition agreed.

In order to demonstrate how co-operative this party is we are prepared to sit next week, the week after and the week after that to help the Taoiseach in all the legislation about which he is so concerned. If he wishes now to ask the House to adjourn for only Holy Week we will agree. If all that legislation which weights so heavily on the Taoiseach's mind——

(Cavan-Monaghan): When the agreement was entered into the Taoiseach did not say he was going to have this long holiday.

Fine Gael did not agree but Labour did.

Would the Taoiseach not consider it more appropriate in the circumstances if we adjourned for a shorter period and he availed of that extra time to come into the House——

The Deputy's backbenchers would throw him out.

(Interruptions.)

We all know that the dearest wish in the Taoiseach's heart is to have me out of this House.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach, unfortunately, will find it as difficult to dispose of me as he will of parlimentary democracy. As long as the Taoiseach wants to be Taoiseach, as long as he stays there without facing the people, he will have to face this Opposition. He will not evade it because we will pursue him. We will point out the mismanagement of the economy which he has presided over. We will point out that that mismanagement has led to untold hardship and suffering in the country. We will point out all the issues the Taoiseach has evaded and he continues to evade. Would the Taoiseach not be better employed in the interests of the country to stay here a little longer and let us know about his attitude, unequivocally, on neutrality, let us know if he gave the commitments, which Deputy Boland stated this morning he gave, to the relatives of the Stardust tragedy and let us know if the constitutional position of Northern Ireland, clear and unequivocally, is being, can or will be discussed in these studies which are taking place?

Would it not be better if the Taoiseach stayed here a little longer and let us know, clearly and unequivocally, what policies he has to try to put the 126,000 people who are unemployed back to work, let us know in clear, unequivocal terms how he will make up the very significant and obvious shortfall in the Estimates? There are many other things which could be discussed. The Taoiseach's term of office has been distinguished by one thing more than any other, his evasiveness. Everything has come under the heading of confidentiality and secrecy.

We had this with Mrs. Thatcher and we now have it with the Stardust people. Every time a legitimate question was asked in the House and it was politically difficult and embarrassing, the Taoiseach used one of two tactics. He jumped behind procedure or he said the matter was confidential. The confidentiality is over and the bit in the bunker is over, because whether the Taoiseach likes it or not the time is coming when he will have to face the Irish electorate. The Taoiseach can evade us here for three weeks, he has the 20 votes to do it, but he cannot evade his responsibilities for ever. He certainly will not evade the wrath of the Irish electorate.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach, to conclude.

This debate which is taking place is typical of the behaviour of the Opposition on a number of occasions, practically consistently since the December recess——

The Taoiseach was telling us that this was out of order. Why is he taking part in the debate now?

The Labour Party agreed to take the agenda, which is set out for today, which covers a number of very important measures and which we are anxious to get on the Statute Book, dealing with family law, mental health services and so on. We have already wasted 35 minutes on this sort of specious procedural type of argument. I want to mention a few points which were made. Deputy FitzGerald spoke about legislation. We have put throught a very considerable amount of legislation in the last term. Most of it has gone through practically automatically because the Opposition have not had the capacity to debate it in any substantial way. Very often we found ourselves short of business because legislation which we thought would be the subject of very considerable debate went through in almost rubber stamp fashion. So much for the Opposition's preoccupation with reforming legislation.

That is completely wrong.

(Interruptions.)

Since Deputy FitzGerald came into the House he has consistently, except for the brief period when he was suffering under Deputy Richie Ryan's term of office as Minister for Finance, sought in the House to undermine our public finances. Every year he questions the veracity of the Estimates and the veracity of the budgetary figures.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach, without interruption.

He has been consistently proved wrong. I believe he reached the nadir on the last occasion when from the corridors of the trilateral commission he issued a statement undermining the public finances of the county. With his international banking friends in the trilateral commission——

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach without interruption.

——he deemed it appropriate to issue a statement from the USA seeking to undermine the public finances of his own country. I leave it to the judgment of the general public if that is a responsible, patriotic thing to do.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy FitzGerald made a big play about discussing the Estimates. Last year for the first time we inaugurated a new system of giving the Opposition every opportunity to go into the Estimates in detail. We set aside Fridays for a full discussion on the Estimates. We are anxious to do that again this year but I hope this year will be different from last year. I hope the Opposition will find it worth their while to come in to discuss the Estimates which they did not do last year. Let us have less of this bluffing. When we gave the Opposition all the days they wanted last year to discuss Estimates they could not find the capacity to muster a few people here to talk on them.

That is not true.

Friday after Friday the debate on the Estimates collapsed because the Opposition were not there to discuss them. Deputy Cluskey accuses me of evading issues. I ask any impartial, objective Deputy in the House or outside commentator have we not met every request from the Opposition in the last term for a debate on any matter which arose?

Will the Deputy give me an example?

The Stardust tragedy, Day after day the Taoiseach evaded the issue.

We gave a full debate on it. My recollection is that on practically every occasion when the Opposition sought a debate on a current issue we gave the Opposition time to discuss it.

It is now practically every occasion.

I cannot recall any occasion on which the Opposition were refused a debate. What normally transpired was, having kicked up a row about getting debates, when we offered the Opposition the debates, they could hardly muster enough speakers to take up the time.

(Interruptions.)

I suggest that the Opposition have wasted, in unruly and disruptive conduct on the Order of Business, more time than we are asking for by postponing the resumption of the Dáil until 5 May. As already pointed out, the normal process would be to return on the Wednesday of the week following Easter Week. By postponing the resumption until the following Tuesday we are in effect losing one-and-a-half days of Dáil time. We are perfectly prepared to make up that time between 5 May and the Summer Recess. Furthermore, we are perfectly willing and anxious to give debates on the Estimates every Friday after the resumption and Deputies may deal with the Estimates in the most full and complete detail they wish. We will give the Opposition all the time they want, but if they put us to the trouble of getting the Dáil assembled on Fridays, let them at least come in and talk on the Estimates.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I reject as specious Deputy Cluskey's suggestion that we have sought to evade any issue. The record will show that since we resumed after Christmas we have given the Opposition every opportunity they wanted to discuss every issue they wished to raise, including on this occasion taking the unprecedented step of broadening the debate on the Second Stage of the Finance Bill to enable a general economic discussion. Even this evening, instead of adjourning at the normal time of 5 o'clock, we are facilitating the Opposition by giving them an opportunity to have a full debate on the recent successful agricultural package negotiated by the Minister for Agriculture, Deputy MacSharry. It cannot be reasonably or validly suggested that we have curtailed the Opposition's democratic rights to debate any issue they wish in this House.

A Cheann Comhairle——

Sorry, Deputy. I had called on the Taoiseach to conclude.

The Taoiseach was merely contributing.

This is a motion. Deputies are entitled to contribute.

I allowed Deputies to speak and when the Taoiseach rose I called on him to conclude. I specifically called on him to do so.

That was never agreed. It was not put to the House.

The Taoiseach would not be entitled to speak if he were not concluding.

We did not agree to a time limit on this motion.

I am not concerned as to whether Deputies agreed or not. The Taoiseach moved the motion, speakers offered and I called on them as they did so. The Taoiseach again rose and I called on him to conclude because nobody else offered.

On a point of order, are you saying to the House that you used the word "conclude" when calling on the Taoiseach and that the record of the House will show that this word was used?

Yes. In fact, I said it twice and looked around to see if anyone else wished to speak.

On a point of order, I too looked around as I rose to see if anybody else was was offering before I concluded.

I specifically looked around to see if anyone else wished to speak and I am dealing with this motion in the normal way. A motion is proposed by a proposer, other speakers may speak on the motion and the proposer is entitled to conclude. I called on the Taoiseach to conclude.

The debate is being guillotined.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 56; Níl, 36.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Kit.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, Niall.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Callanan, John.
  • Cogan, Barry.
  • Colley, George.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Farrell, Joe.
  • Filgate, Eddie.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Dublin South-Central).
  • Fitzsimons, James N.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Dennis.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Killeen, Tim.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lemass, Eileen.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Loughnane, William.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Murphy, Ciarán P.
  • Nolan, Tom.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy C.
  • O'Donoghue, Martin.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Malley, Desmond. Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael J.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Boland, John.
  • Browne, Noel.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Joan.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • D'Arcy, Michael J.
  • Deasy, Martin A.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Taylor, Frank.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Donnellan, John F.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Cavan-Monaghan).
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Horgan, John.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • O'Brien, William.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Quinn, Ruairi.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Moore and Briscoe; Níl, Deputies L'Estrange and B. Desmond.
Question declared carried.
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