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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 May 1981

Vol. 328 No. 9

Fire Services Bill, 1981: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Two main factors have influenced the evolution of the present Bill. One was the need to improve the organisation and powers of the country's fire service to meet present and future requirements. The other factor was the necessity for strong and detailed provisions relating to fire safety.

The Bill was at a very advanced stage when the Stardust tragedy occurred in February. The House will recall that, following that tragedy, I undertook that certain activities would be developed in a short time. The completion of the processing of the Bill was one of these and, in fact, its presentation now discharges the last of the undertakings which I gave.

If I may remind the House, the other measures which I referred to then were that revised draft building regulations, incorporating amendments, would be published within six weeks and made available for use in their operations by local authorities, industrial and professional bodies, pending the enactment of the necessary legislation to give them statutory force, and that a special task force, reporting directly to me, would be set up with a special budget to augment the work of the Fire Prevention Council in promoting greater public awareness of fire hazards, especially those associated with places of public entertainment. I am pleased to report to the House that these commitments have been honoured in full. Furthermore, I have introduced a scheme of 50 per cent State subsidy on loan charges on fire stations and equipment.

The present Bill, however, is the most important of the measures involved, both for the comprehensiveness of its proposals to update and strengthen the law and because it fixes the new framework within which the efforts of all concerned with fire safety must henceforth be directed. To set these new provisions in perspective, it is necessary to deal briefly with the history of fire services legislation up to the present time.

Apart from certain local Acts, this legislation was confined in the 19th century to a number of Town Commissioners Acts, beginning in 1828 and culminating in the Towns Improvement (Ireland) Act, 1854. This meant that fire-fighting powers were the preserve of certain urban authorities only and, even there, the exercise of them was adoptive rather than mandatory. Part VIII of the Public Health Acts Amendment Act, 1907, gave an implied power to maintain a fire brigade to both urban and rural local authorities, but again the measures involved were only adoptive.

The primary object of the Fire Brigades Act, 1940, was to introduce a statutory requirement of fire cover right across the country. This it did by imposing an obligation on all sanitary authorities to make reasonable provision for the prompt and efficient extinguishing of fires in their areas and for the protection and rescue of persons and property from injury by fire. Sanitary authorities were free to discharge this obligation either by themselves maintaining a fire brigade or by arranging with another authority to provide this service in their area. The 1940 Act also laid down the basis of a fire prevention system in the concept which it introduced of a "potentially dangerous building" in relation to which the sanitary authority was enabled to serve a fire precautions notice.

Although the Fire Brigades Act, 1940, was a comparatively brief measure, it enabled local authorities to establish an effective fire fighting system and to operate considerable controls for the prevention of fire hazards. Accordingly, although the present Bill proposes to repeal the old Act, a number of its provisions are being re-enacted, but usually with such amendments as experience has shown to be necessary.

Much has happened in the past 40 years to warrant a radical review of fire service legislation. Industrialisation has been in progress on a scale never contemplated in 1940. Less dramatic, perhaps, but just as important has been the growth in residential, service and amenity development consequent on our expanding population and increased economic activity. Another factor is that changes have taken place in the methods, scale and style of construction, including introduction of new buildings materials.

All of these things add to the demands on the fire service not only in regard to fire fighting strength but also in regard to equipment and training. A new dimension has been added in the need to secure fire safety in buildings and in the contribution which the fire service is called on to make to the operation of planning and development controls.

It is true that the greatest concentration of buildings is in our urban areas but fire hazards are not confined to these areas. Many factories, institutions, stores and housing schemes are located outside urban boundaries. Rural areas share with urban areas the problems which may arise from the transport of hazardous substances, major road or rail accidents and other disasters. All of these are matters in which the fire service must become increasingly involved in providing emergency assistance.

The need for a thorough assessment of the capacity of our fire service for its now more onerous role was recognised when the Minister for Local Government appointed a working party in November 1972 with full terms of reference in relation to the fire service. In particular, the working party was asked to advise the Minister on the questions of fire resources, fire prevention measures, legislation, financial implications and on staffing and training arrangements.

The main report of the working party was published in July 1975 and it contained 39 recommendations grouped around the five headings of the operational fire service; fire prevention; staffing structure and qualifications; training, and miscellaneous aspects.

In addition to this complex set of recommendations, a number of minority reports were also submitted with the main working party report.

The report on the fire service, and the comments which were received on it have in practice formed the basis of a programme of action which has been under way in recent years with a view to improving and modernising the country's fire service. I think it important to stress to the House the ongoing nature of this programme and in particular to allay any impression that implementation of the fire service report is only now beginning with the publication of the new Fire Services Bill. New legislation, important though it is, is only one instrument in a concerted series of measures to equip the fire service for the challenges facing it.

To remind the House of some of the more important initiatives involved, local fire service reviews, one of the key measures recommended by the working party, were requested by my Department in 1976. Reports by the local authorities involved have been completed for all areas and they will now have the benefit of these reviews in remedying any deficiencies revealed. A central training programme for fire service personnel has been developed by my Department to supplement local training. As recommended in the 1975 report, a Fire Prevention Council was statutorily established by my predecessor in July 1978 to promote greater public awareness of the need for fire safety. The staff dealing with fire matters in my Department has been substantially expanded and a considerable programme is in train for the provision of advice and assistance to fire authorities by the issue of guidelines, memoranda and circulars.

The Government's concern to bring real improvement to the quality of our fire service is probably shown in its most practical form by the greatly increased capital investment in the service which we have authorised since taking up office in 1977. In that year the capital provision made for fire services by the previous Government amounted to just £694,000. Mindful that a much more realistic allocation was necessary to make a meaningful start on the backlog of fire service projects, the present Government have provided over £2 million each year since 1978. In all, the £9.2 million made available by this Government in capital for fire services over the four years of our administration amounts to some three-and-a-half times that provided by the previous Government over the five budgets for which they were responsible.

This priming of the capital programmes of local authorities, which is already bearing fruit by way of new and modernised fire stations and new fire appliances and equipment, is also being matched by an increased commitment to fire services from local authorities' own revenue resources. This increase may be measured both in absolute terms, with some £17 million devoted to fire services in 1980 as compared to £9.37 million in 1977, and by the greater percentage of the overall revenue resources of local authorities now being devoted to fire services.

These measures and others, which have been pursued independently of the new Bill, are all contributing in their way to the achievement of an improved and more efficient fire service, but the Fire Services Bill now before us marks a major advance in the comprehensive legislative framework which it proposes for the further development of the service. If I may try first to avert some possible misconceptions about the Bill, I would like to point out that it has not been necessary to provide specially in it for many general powers which will remain available to fire authorities in their capacity as local authorities. These general local government powers, already contained in other legislation, will underpin the activities of fire authorities in such matters as revenue financing, borrowing, staffing and land acquisition.

In particular, I am satisfied that an adequate machinery already exists for the development of effective organisational and staffing structures. Negotiations on the development of such structures, with particular reference to the county fire services, have been taking place for some considerable time under the relevant conciliation and arbitration scheme. So far, however, it has not been possible to evolve a structure that would meet the differing views and aspirations of the various interested groups which are concerned with the fire service. There have been, for example, opposed views by the unions on the question of whether chief fire officers should report to county or city engineers or directly to county or city managers. Similarly, there have been differing approaches to questions involving organisation, staffing and promotional outlets at levels below the chief fire officers, and in regard to the qualifications that should attach to posts at various levels.

This Bill, with the improvements it envisages, provides an opportunity for all parties to look afresh at staffing arrangements. I am confident that it is possible to develop a staff structure which takes account of the interest of the community and also the reasonable aspirations of the different staff groups involved. The problem must be approached in this light with a view to bringing it to an early and successful conclusion.

The Bill itself is divided into four parts under which are grouped sections dealing with preliminary and general matters, the organisation of the fire service, fire fighting and fire safety requirements, and, finally, consequential financial and administrative arrangements. Part I is concerned with preliminary and general matters and contains a number of standard sections dealing with commencement, definitions, procedure for making regulations and certain orders, and the expenses of the Minister.

The main substantive provisions of

Part I are the repeal by section 8 of the Fire Brigades Act, 1940 and the now obsolete Cinematograph Act, 1909, and the greatly increased penalties for offences under the Bill are specified by section 5.

Summary and indictable offences are treated separately. A person convicted of the former will be liable to a maximum penalty of a £500 fine and/or 6 months' imprisonment. Indictable offences, which may arise from failure to comply with the duties placed by the Act on persons having control of certain premises (section 18 (2) and section 37) or on a persons on whom a fire safety notice is served (section 20), will be even more severely punishable by fines of up to £10,000 and/or imprisonment of up to two years.

The penalties provided for in section 5 may seem severe when contrasted with the maximum single penalties under the Fire Brigades Act, 1940, of a fine of £50 or three months' imprisonment. Their severity, I can assure the House, is not an end in itself but a recognition of the right of society as a whole to be protected against any irresponsibility in relation to fire risk.

Part II of the Bill proposes a new organisation of the fire service. The main feature of this will be to concentrate and integrate in 35 local authorities, to be known as fire authorities, responsibility for both fire fighting and fire safety functions. The 35 fire authorities provided for in section 9 are the 27 county councils, the four county borough corporations, the borough corporations of Dun Laoghaire and Drogheda and the urban district councils of Dundalk and Athlone.

The change involved here is best understood by reference to the Fire Brigades Act, 1940. Under this, responsibility for both fire fighting and fire safety was, formerly at least, assigned individually to each of 87 sanitary authorities. In practice, all but the four boroughs or urban districts which I have just named have made arrangements with their county council for the provision of a fire brigade service, so that assigning fire fighting functions to the 35 authorities only recognises the de facto position which has obtained for some time.

The situation in respect of fire prevention functions is somewhat different. Under both the Fire Brigades Act, 1940, and a number of other enactments, these functions have tended to be vested in all 87 sanitary authorities. While statutory agreements have been made by a number of urban authorities to have these fire safety functions carried out by their county council, formal arrangements of this kind have not been the general rule. At the same time, most urban authorities have been relying on county councils, partly at least, to provide them informally with the expertise necessary to discharge their fire prevention functions.

I am satisfied that it is desirable to strengthen and rationalise this structure. Section 11 of the Bill accordingly provides for the transfer to the 35 fire authorities of the main fire safety functions vested in local authorities generally under other enactments. Section 17 provides, as may be necessary, for the transfer of staff or property dedicated exclusively to fire prevention work from boroughs or urban districts to the relevant fire authority.

I have referred to the important relationship between fire prevention and planning control. So as to ensure a full fire safety input into the planning decisions of urban authorities who are not fire authorities, section 13 will allow a fire authority to advise a planning authority on the exercise of their planning control functions.

The fire fighting functions of fire authorities, which are set out in section 10 of the Bill, are largely a re-enactment of the corresponding provision of the Fire Brigades Act, 1940. A general duty is placed on fire authorities to make provision for the prompt and efficient extinguishing of fires in buildings and other places, and to establish and maintain a fire brigade. Fire authorities are expressly enabled by section 10 to make arrangements with each other for the joint discharge of their functions and to enter agreements with any other person or body either to provide or to avail of services. Section 14 requires fire authorities, as far as reasonably possible, to give assistance to one another.

The present Bill, however, does not itself authorise the making of agreements between fire authorities for the performance of the functions of one authority by the other, and, indeed, it actually drops a provision to this effect which was contained in section 2 (3) of the Fire Brigades Act, 1940. The reason is that an adequate framework for such agency arrangements has been provided by an enactment subsequent to the 1940 Act, namely section 59 of the Local Government Act, 1955. The present Bill does provide, however, in subsection (6) of section 10, for a reserve power of the Minister to order agreements under the 1955 Act to be made between fire authorities where this appears to him to be necessary.

It will be convenient at this stage to deal briefly with the additional fire fighting powers of fire authorities which are spelt out in sections 25 to 28 of the Bill. Sections 25 and 26 give statutory recognition to the now wider role of fire brigades in coping with emergencies of all kinds. Section 25 does this by allowing a fire authority to carry out or assist at operations of an emergency nature whether or not a risk of fire is involved. Section 26 requires fire authorities to prepare fire and emergency operations plans. Sections 27 and 28 develop considerably the provisions of the Fire Brigades Act, 1940 regarding control of operations at a fire, section 27 designating and defining the person in control and section 28 giving this person wide ancillary powers.

Part II of the Bill is completed by two important sections dealing with the training of fire service personnel. While the primary duty in this regard is properly placed by section 15 on fire authorities themselves, the Minister for the Environment is also empowered to assist, both by arranging for instruction and certificates and by the grant of financial assistance. I should say in passing that these provisions are only a logical recognition of the practical involvement of my Department in this area in recent years. Section 16 allows for the establishment, by order, of a special body to be known as the Fire Services Training Council whose role it will be to advise the Minister for the Environment on the training needs of fire authorities.

Part III of the Bill is concerned with fire fighting and fire safety provisions, the former of which I have already outlined to the House. An important new principle behind the fire safety provisions of the Bill is to emphasise the responsibility of persons having control over certain premises to take all reasonable measures to guard against the outbreak of fire and to ensure the safety of persons on the premises.

Section 18 introduces this obligation and specifies the type of premises concerned. Broadly, all premises to which the public have access fall within the scope of the section, which also requires all persons on such premises to conduct themselves in such a way as not to expose any other person to danger from fire. I regard this as a very important provision of the Bill and it will, I hope, result in greater emphasis by property owners themselves on preventive action.

The Bill also strengthens the powers of fire authorities to take action on potentially dangerous buildings. Strong powers already exist in the Fire Brigades Act, 1940, to deal with such buildings, as witness the action taken by local authorities following my request to them recently. However, sections 19 and 20 will clarify and widen the powers of fire authorities in this regard. An appeal procedure to the District Court, on the lines of the existing procedure, is provided for in section 21. A separate power, however, is being given to fire authorities in section 23, where serious fire risk is involved, to apply to the High Court for an order restricting or immediately prohibiting the use of land or buildings.

Fire authorities will, of course, continue to have available to them the opportunity under various other codes, including the Licensing Acts and the Public Dance Halls Act, to ensure that adequate fire precautions are taken in such premises. A reserve power is also being taken in section 37 to make regulations prescribing precautions to be taken in premises covered by section 18, to which I referred earlier. If the need arises, I would intend, following consultation with the various interests concerned, to use the powers in this section to ensure adequate protection of persons and property against fire risk.

The ministerial powers being taken in section 37 invite some comment on the degrees of central and local involvement envisaged by the Bill. As I have explained, responsibility for provision of a fire fighting service and for performance of certain fire safety functions will rest with local authorities. The role of my Department will be to promote standardisation and encourage and support, mainly by advice and guidance, the efforts of local authorities. Guidelines on certain aspects of the service have already been issued by my Department.

For example, in April of this year detailed guidelines on the use of breathing apparatus were issued to local authorities. Guidelines on recruit training were issued in 1980 and on the planning of retained fire stations in 1977. Recommended fire protection standards were issued earlier. It is my intention to continue to provide guidance as required on the standard of the service.

I might mention that work has already commenced in my Department on the preparation of guidelines on various aspects of the service, including recommended specifications for fire appliances, fire safety in high risk buildings, fire drills and medical standards for recruit firemen.

The remaining major provision of Part III of the Bill is section 22. This gives wide powers of inspection of any land or building to a person authorised by a fire authority. In addition to powers of inspection, the section enables an authorised officer to require information to be given to him and to conduct tests and examinations.

Part IV of the Bill, with the exception of section 37, which I have already outlined, deals with miscellaneous matters of finance and administration. Section 32 will allow the Minister for the Environment, with the agreement of the Minister for Finance, to make annual grants to fire authorities towards the expenditure incurred by them in providing a fire service. This provision will validate the scheme of 50 per cent State subsidy on loan charges arising on capital borrowing for fire services which I introduced earlier this year and which will greatly assist fire authorities in providing new stations and equipment where these are necessary.

Section 33 allows for grants from the Minister for the Environment to persons or bodies engaged in fire research. Section 35 is another financial provision and it makes it clear that, with the exception of urban authorities who are fire authorities in their own right, the expenses of fire authorities will be apportionable equally over county and urban areas. The section also introduces an important new principle whereby a fire authority will be entitled to charge users or beneficiaries of its services.

Section 34 makes provision, familiar in local government legislation, for the furnishing of information by fire authorities to the Minister, and section 38 is a technical measure clarifying the means by which notices under the Bill may be served. Section 36, finally, adapts a provision of the Fire Brigades Act, 1940, so as to give immunity against legal proceedings arising from the discharge of their functions under the Bill to the fire authorities, sanitary authorities and the Minister.

The Bill is a long and complex one and will undoubtedly benefit from the detailed scrutiny which this House will be giving it on Committee Stage. Of course I will be prepared to consider any constructive suggestions for improvement of the Bill's provisions. I am satisfied, however, that in its general principles it will provide an effective framework within which to harness the good will and interest which now exist on all sides for the improvement of the country's fire service.

As I have already emphasised, the Bill is being complemented by a number of parallel measures, notably the revised draft building regulations to which I propose soon to give statutory force. But both practically and symbolically the Fire Services Bill, 1981, stands at the centre of the concerted effort under way for the renewal of the fire service. I know that this House will be fully alive to its responsibilities in this regard and I now commend the Bill to it.

In the light of recent circumstances, and debates and parliamentary questions in the House in the last number of months, I am surprised at what I fear to be a tone of unctuous self-righteousness running through the speech the Minister has just delivered. I thought that in the circumstances it was less than adequate. On 19 March last I asked a parliamentary question, reported at column 1933 of the Official Report for that day. I asked the Minister for the Environment whether legal proceedings had been initiated against his Department by an officer (details supplied) of his Department and, if so, the details of such proceedings and the outcome thereof. The Minister replied:

A High Court summons was issued on 15 May 1978 on behalf of the officer concerned. The plaintiff claimed that the Minister for the Environment was failing to consider or implement advice tendered to him by the plaintiff and was failing to carry out and implement his statutory functions; that the plaintiff was frustrated and prevented from carrying out his functions; and that certain allegations made against the plaintiff by another officer of the Department were untrue and unjustified and made in contravention of natural and constitutional justice. The plaintiff indicated on 31 July 1978 that notice of discontinuance of this court action was being served.

A number of supplementary questions were asked. I asked the Minister to explain the reasons for the withdrawal of the action. I was told there were changes in the administrative arrangements in relation to that office in the Department. As we all know, the officer concerned is the chief fire adviser to the Minister for the Environment.

Perhaps the introduction of this Bill and the comments made by the Minister should be taken in the context of that High Court summons issued on 15 May 1978, because it contrasts rather strangely with some of the self-congratulatory remarks made on behalf of the Government by the present Minister. It is strange that the chief fire adviser to the Department of the Environment, to the Minister's colleague and to his predecessor in the Department, should have felt obliged two and a half years ago to take High Court proceedings against the Minister and the Department, a procedure which I think everyone would agree is virtually unparallelled in the history of the Irish public service. As I have said, that contrasts strangely with some of the sentiments expressed in the Minister's speech today.

In the course of replies to various parliamentary questions in the last few months I found myself obliged to describe the chief fire adviser to the Minister as being akin to the man in the iron mask: he is locked into the Department of the Environment in the Custom House; only certain people will speak to him and he is allowed to speak to certain people only; he is not entitled or allowed to venture out in public for fear, apparently, that this unfortunate man, who has been attempting to perform his part adequately and who made the Department and the local authorities and the public aware of the poor state of the fire services, might bring embarrassment on all of us. That court action he was obliged to take two-and-a-half years ago in order to have his voice heard and to provide realistic fire fighting, fire prevention and training services is to be commended. His efforts in this matter are in stark contrast to what happened at other levels and are in strange contrast to some of the sentiments of congratulation expressed by the Minister to himself, his predecessor and to the Government generally for the action they have ostensibly taken in the past four years.

I do not accept the Minister's remark that the Bill was at an advanced stage when the Stardust tragedy occurred in February. Too little happened in the five years from 1975 and too much happened since last February for us to believe that all of the matters referred to were to be announced and would have been implemented in the two months since the dreadful Stardust tragedy. It would have been better and more fair if we all had admitted we had been remiss in developing an adequate, modern fire service. We should have admitted we were wrong in not perceiving there were changing requirements in the light of modern developments and we should have stated that we intended to put the position right as soon as possible. We should have admitted that we accepted we should have acted on the report of the working party on the fire services, the majority report of which has formed the basis for this Bill. It would have been more acceptable and honest if the Minister had taken that attitude rather than endeavouring to suggest that all the huffing and puffing on his part and all the pronouncements that have been made since February would have been made in any event. Neither the public nor any Member of this House is likely to be fooled by such remarks by the Minister and they take away from the general discussion that is needed at present.

The fact is that at the end of March six posts of chief fire officer in various counties were vacant. The posts in question were in Donegal where a vacancy existed since 28 July 1978; in north Tipperary where a vacancy existed since 30 July 1978; in Sligo-Leitrim where a vacancy existed since 20 May 1979; in Limerick where the post has been vacant since 16 June 1979 and in Roscommon where the post has been vacant since 1 December 1979. In reply to my parliamentary question on 24 March the Minister stated:

Sanction issued to the creation of a post of chief fire officer in Monaghan on 19 April 1978 but the post there has not yet been filled. The vacancies in that post and the other posts which have been vacant since 1978 were advertised on a number of occasions by the Local Appointments Commissioners without success.

I am not sure of the number of occasions on which the posts were advertised but the question must be asked why these posts were not filled. Was there some defect with regard to the salaries, the conditions of service or the qualifications sought? In his reply the Minister stated the following:

As a result of an agreement reached at conciliation on 18 April 1979 between management and the staff side on the restructuring of engineering and cognate professional grades, including the grade of chief fire officer, in the local authority service, it was agreed at the request of the staff side that recruitment of professional staff at the relevant levels would be suspended pending the assessment through local negotiations of each local authority's requirements under the new structure and its implementation. Since then negotiations have been continuing with the staff side on the question of the application of the agreement to the office of chief fire officer and the restructuring of that office, but agreement has not yet been reached on this issue with the staff side, differences existing between the different interests on the staff side.

As I indicated, however, in my statement in the House on 18 February last, I have decided that pending agreement with staff side interests on the restructuring of the office of chief fire officer, arrangements be put in train for the filling of the chief fire officer vacancies on the basis of the old conditions with an addendum that these conditions are at present being reviewed.

Perhaps in the latter part of the Minister's answer we are getting nearer to the truth as to why the six posts were not filled, some of them for more than two years. Apparently as a result of a secret agreement between the Department of the Environment and staff interests involved, it was decided that the posts should not be filled while negotiations were to take place with regard to conditions of service and other requirements. Does that reflect well on the Department of the Environment or on the staff side? I think not. A change was brought about suddenly by events prior to 18 February and the Minister decided suddenly that the six posts should be advertised on the basis of the old conditions. As I stated, perhaps we were getting nearer to the truth when it emerged that the posts had not been filled, including, significantly, the post vacant in Donegal, because of the fact that the Department of the Environment and the staff side made a secret agreement in 1978.

In reply to Question No. 440 on 10 March 1981 the Minister for the Environment told the House the following:

As at 31 January 1981 the following proposals for additional posts dealing with fire safety (i.e. fire prevention) were before my Department:

Galway County Council—1 Second Fire Officer and 1 Executive Engineer (temporary) from 7.10.80.

Laois County Council—1 Second Fire Officer from 16.11.78.

Offaly County Council—1 Second Fire Officer from 27.9.78.

The making of a decision on these proposals has been deferred pending the completion of conciliation negotiations on the restructuring of the fire service.

I am quite sure the residents of Laois and Offaly feel much more secure in the knowledge that the Minister has deferred appointing fire prevention officers in their counties pending the completion of the negotiations he mentioned. If one looks back at the reports one sees that various organisations have been talking for the past ten years about the restructuring of the fire services. That is more relevant than the unctuous tones of self-congratulation evident in the Minister's speech.

Since the Fire Brigades Act, 1940, there have been fundamental changes with regard to the operation of fire services and fire prevention measures. Because there was no updating of the legislation, deficiencies have arisen in relation to the organisation, the resources, the staffing, the training of the staff of the fire service and the provision of finance. There are deficiencies in relation to fire prevention, the training of fire prevention officers and the implementation of fire prevention control measures. All those deficiencies have arisen because the legislation was defective and became obsolete with the passage of time.

I am surprised at the Minister's tone when he implies that the enactment of this Bill is one small part only of a continuing process of improving the fire service. This is the part which has delayed the evolution of a modern, comprehensive fire service with properly trained and properly qualified staff carrying out in-service training courses and implementing the more modern techniques of fire fighting and fire safety. Because of the absence of a comprehensive up-to-date Bill, these defects have arisen in the other areas.

Over the past 40 years with industrialisation and the vastly increased use of chemicals and dangerous substances in industrial projects, and the use of complicated chemicals in the manufacture of furniture and fittings for ordinary dwellings, there has been a need for changes in fire fighting techniques and fire prevention control measures. They were not catered for in the 1940 Act but they were dealt with very comprehensively in the major report of the working party on the fire service whose recommendations were published in 1975.

As a result of the publication of that report and the major fire in Noyeks in Dublin some years ago, we might have expected the introduction of legislation. A question arises in relation to other aspects of Government services. Why should a period of six years be allowed to elapse between the publication of a report highlighting major deficiencies in the fire service and an attempt to mend the hand of the fire authorities?

The general provisions of the Bill are welcome. It is regrettable that it took the Stardust fire to bring about the introduction of the Bill. I find it difficult to accept the Minister's assurance that the Bill was at a very advanced stage when the Stardust tragedy occurred in February. I wonder what other major tragedies will have to occur before necessary changes in the legislative code are made.

One of the most important aspects of the Bill is that powers of inspection have been streamlined and strengthened considerably over and above the powers given to fire officers in the 1940 Act. That is probably the most important provision in the Bill together with the right of the fire authorities in certain cases only — and I will deal with this in greater detail later on — to go to the High Court and seek immediate closure of premises which are felt to be dangerous and to represent a serious fire hazard.

In the 1940 Act there are delaying provisions which were adverted to by many people in the wake of the Stardust tragedy of which the Minister appeared to be unaware or to have discounted. They are the provisions which oblige a local authority to serve a fire notice which gives the owner of the property the right to appeal to the District Court within 14 days of the service of that notice. There will be no decision until the District Court hearing has taken place. There may be a number of adjournments and the final decision of the District Court may not be made for a considerable time.

That very inadequate procedure is being re-enacted in this Bill. It is quite obvious that it is the Minister's intention that that is to be the normal procedure adopted by the fire authorities. They will still have to serve a notice which allows a 14-day appeal period. There may be delays in the hearing of public authority matters, and the possible seeking and granting of adjournments in certain cases if sufficient documents and expert witnesses are not produced. All that is provided again in this Fire Services Bill.

There is a separate provision that, in certain cases, the fire authority may go to the High Court to seek an immediate closure. I suspect it is expected that those visits to the High Court will be of such an extraordinary and unusual nature as to be spoken about in awe in fire prevention circles. I hope that is not the case. Because of the repetition of the inadequate and faulty section in the 1940 Act in this Bill, there may not be the degree of improvement we would like to have seen.

Having regard to the inadequacies I have mentioned, we should pay tribute in this House to the personnel who operate the fire services and who show an extraordinary degree of dedication and bravery. They have earned the respect and admiration of the general public. If the public realised the faulty back-up service, the lack of training, the lack of in-service training courses, their admiration for the personnel would increase enormously but their respect for the service would be eroded seriously.

With regard to the notices to be served on people where it is felt that their premises are potentially hazardous from the point of view of fire, I should like the Minister to clarify whether it is intended that, having been served, they should be kept in a register maintained by the fire authorities and available for inspection by the general public. It is important to have such a register open to inspection by the public. The fire authorities should also maintain — in their own interest even if not for public inspection — a register setting out when inspections were carried out on different premises for fire safety purposes. I should like the Minister to deal with that matter in his reply.

It is quite ridiculous — and it exemplifies the weakness in the 1940 Act — that the fire protection notices which operate at present do not contain provisions for seeking or making mandatory the provision of such items as fire extinguishers, alarm systems or sprinkler systems in public premises. It has been suggested that temporary structures such as marquees or timber buildings frequented by the general public are exempt and cannot have a fire protection notice served in relation to them.

Those matters were highlighted in the 1975 report. If it is correct, as that report indicates, that a fire protection notice does not apply to marquees set up for public dancing or the like, it is disgraceful. That proves the point I have been making that it was wrong that that situation should have been allowed to continue not just since 1940 but especially since 1975 when attention was drawn to that inadequacy. The report deals extensively with the matter of fire prevention and points out the importance of fire prevention for a number of reasons not least being the question of cost. The report states that compared to the cost of maintaining a fire brigade and the loss that can be incurred through fire the cost of an intensified fire prevention programme would be modest. The report also stated that it could be expected to yield a material saving of major proportions, not to mention the saving in human lives and suffering.

I do not believe we can say that there has been anything like a comprehensive programme of fire prevention measures operating anywhere in the country. I said before that I felt it would be generally regarded that of all the fire services operating the Dublin Fire Brigade is the best equipped and trained and the most professional of the forces. Yet, it is interesting to reflect on the situation that obtains in the Dublin Fire Brigade. Until after the Stardust tragedy there was no inspection of public premises at night when the premises were most likely to be occupied or used by many people. Within the Dublin fire service — I believe the same applies in other parts of the country — many of the existing fire prevention officers are non-operational staff with little or no training in fire prevention. In the Dublin fire service the number of people engaged in fire prevention control measures does not go beyond single figures as opposed to the number of staff utilised for the purpose of fire prevention in cities like Liverpool and other British cities. The number engaged in fire prevention there could be as high as 40 compared to Dublin where less than ten are engaged.

The qualification for a fire prevention officer is that he should have a professional degree in engineering. It is alleged by the trade union that represents personnel employed within the fire service that in the course of the four years it takes to obtain a degree in engineering one spends two hours of the entire course on fire prevention education. Yet the requirement advertised by the Local Appointments Commission for a fire prevention officer is that the applicant should have a BE degree. If that is the case it amounts to a serious deficiency in the standard of qualification necessary for fire prevention purposes. In relation to the co-ordination of fire prevention matters and the granting of planning permission for the construction of new properties very often one finds that a condition of the granting of permission is that the requirements of the chief fire officer be obtained and adhered to. If one looks at most of the planning application files one will find that the observations of the chief fire officer on the application amounts to a blank square. That happens because there are not enough personnel in the fire prevention service and the fire service to make an adequate observation on plans submitted. In the majority of cases in Dublin involving major public buildings the standard clause inserted in the granting of planning permission is that the requirements of the chief fire officer be obtained and adhered to. There is no way one can ascertain whether the observations of the fire officer are adhered to. That situation exists because we do not have the personnel to deal with that field.

If the fact that I have raised this matter brings about a degree of inspection or emphasis in this area the discussion today will be worthwhile. There is no doubt that a number of public buildings, especially big lounges built for use as extensions to public houses, have in recent years been converted from places where people met for a social drink to places which operate as cabaret lounges. People are attracted to such places because of the cabaret entertainment being provided there. We must all be aware of the number of such lounges which were not constructed as public theatres or places like that but now have hundreds of patrons crammed into them although those buildings were never intended to hold the numbers admitted to them from time to time. Those buildings cannot have a sufficient degree of fire control measures.

The Minister should consider contacting the fire authorities to draw their attention to the fact that the use of public buildings has been changed over the years from the original intention set out in the granting of planning permission to the every day use they are now being put to. The operation of these cabaret licensed lounges should be urgently considered. In the area of fire prevention we had the clearest example of the Government's attitude to this matter prior to the Stardust tragedy. Two years ago the Federation of Insurers agreed to set up the Fire Prevention Council with the Government. The purpose of the council was, through advertisements and public courses, to make the public, industry and commerce more aware of the need for fire prevention measures. The council is jointly funded by the Government and the insurance companies. It has been in operation since 1978 and is still trying to find its feet and decide the areas in which to spend money. The council suggested that the 1980 budget of £100,000 should be increased to £140,000 or £150,000. This was to allow the council to carry out a vastly expanded series of newspaper advertisements bearing in mind the increased cost of such advertisements. Admittedly, the increase sought was abnormal in percentage terms but not an extraordinary sum to be spent annually by such a body that was set up to advertise nationally the advantages of fire prevention measures.

The insurers who pay half of the cost— and whom one might have expected in the private interests involved to have baulked at such a large percentage increase—agreed on their side to bear 50 . per cent of the cost of the budget which the Fire Prevention Council sought. The Minister for the Environment refused, and that refusal to meet that increase emanated from his Department within weeks of the Stardust tragedy. The Minister's Department suggested that the budget for the Fire Prevention Council should be increased all right, from £100,000 in 1980 to £105,000 in 1981. The comparison between recently alluded to inflation rate increases in the cost of living for the first month of this year and 1980 highlights whether there was an increase in real terms in the amount of money which the Minister decided the Fire Prevention Council should spend, and not only what they should spend before the Stardust fire. He confirmed afterwards that that was the maximum amount of money which they should have available to them.

In that context the Minister in the immediate aftermath of the Stardust tragedy announced that he was setting up a task force to advise on fire matters and that he would ask the chairman of the Fire Prevention Council to head this task force. He alluded to that task force in his speech today. I would have preferred if he had explained to the House in some detail what exactly the task force are going to be, what exactly will be the source of finance for them and where exactly he sees them in real terms improving the position in relation to the fire services. The simple fact of the matter in relation to fire prevention measures at present is that there are no national standards whatsoever and if the task force or the provisions contained in this Bill help in any way to bring about national standards they will certainly represent an improvement. The situation now is that what could be passed as safe in one fire authority area could be deemed tremendously unsafe on a number of grounds in an adjoining area.

I welcome in particular the provisions in section 20 of the current Bill which refer to the service of the fire safety notice on the owner or occupier of a building which is considered to be a potentially dangerous building. The explanatory memorandum says at page 5:

Whether or not use is prohibited, a fire safety notice can impose requirements as to the provision of emergency lighting, exit signs and fire safety notices, the arrangements to be made for the maintenance of certain equipment and fittings, the power and heating systems, the arrangements for safe storage of certain materials, the measures to be taken to ensure that employees receive fire safety training, the holding of fire drills, the keeping of appropriate records, the assignment of responsibility for fire safety measures and the limiting of the number of persons in the building at any one time.

Other items are required as well, but all of those requirements were recommended in the 1975 report. The existing fire protection notice was not empowered to have included within it the majority of those requirements. I have to ask now why we are in May 1981 discussing the implementation of proposals of a 1975 report which proposals seem now, on the face of it certainly, to be self-justifying and not requiring any explanation or any delay in their implementation. Yet is has taken from 1975 until now to see this legislative change being brought about. I have to ask the House if, had the provisions of section 20 been in operation since 1975, more people might be alive today than there are.

In the area of training the Report on the Fire Service 1974 pointed out in chapter ix, paragraph 9.1.1:

...such a programme is necessary to ensure that the expertise essential to the most efficient operation of the service and the safety of personnel, is developed and maintained at all levels.

It was essential that that should happen. It is recommended, for instance, in paragraph 9.1.2 that:

Technical training for firemen in middle grades will be needed in the following respects:

(i) Induction training with particular reference to practical firemanship, for new appointees;

(ii) continuation training, theoretical and practical, to maintain and improve performance standards;

(iii) courses to deal with specialist aspects and to raise the level of skills generally;

(iv) courses by which personnel will be assisted in obtaining qualifications for advancement.

In relation to those four recommendations let us consider the situation with respect again to the example I have been using, the Dublin Fire Brigade. There is an induction course for recruits entering the Dublin Fire Brigade which goes on for something like four weeks. However, in relation to continuation training, theoretical or practical, courses to deal with specialist aspects or courses by which personnel will be assisted to obtain qualifications for advancement, the fact is that, even within the Dublin Fire Brigade Service, virtually none of these courses is in existence. There are a number of basic drills which are carried out, but the standard which would be required in order to match up with the recommendation of the report are just not in existence in Dublin.

The report also recommends at chapter ix, paragraph 9.3.5 in relation to courses for wholetime fire brigades:

Two courses of 12 weeks each for recruit training to cater for about 20 personnel per course.

Four 1 week refresher courses for all full-time firemen—20 per course.

One course, training sub-officers on appointment: to include leadership, station routine, report writing, etc.

One course for existing sub-officers: to include fire ground procedure, report writing, fire prevention, special services, control and procedure.

One course for Station Officers: to be at more advanced level than that of sub-officers with emphasis on fire prevention.

Let us consider how those recommendations made in 1975 compare with what is happening in Dublin. The course of induction for new personnel entering the service takes place certainly. The report recommends four one-week refresher courses for all full-time firemen. Those courses are not carried out in Dublin. It recommends a course for existing sub-officers on appointment to include leadership, station routine, report writing and so on. That course is not carried out in Dublin. It recommends a course for station officers with emphasis on fire prevention. That course is not carried out in Dublin. It recommends training and specialist courses which would also be necessary for existing personnel within the fire services. That course to some extent has been carried out in Dublin and the Minister may be aware of it to some degree because I have referred to it in the House previously. Because of pressure from various quarters a number of personnel in the Dublin fire brigade service were sent away to train as instructors in the use of breathing apparatus. Since they returned they have not trained or instructed any of the other Dublin fire brigade personnel in the use of breathing apparatus. Some time ago I asked the Minister here in the House about that matter in relation to the training of the firemen in what are known as the retained stations, the part-time fire stations in Balbriggan, Skerries, Swords and Malahide which have not for a considerable number of years had the use of breathing apparatus on their fire tenders because they have not been trained in the use of breathing apparatus. The Minister made out that this was because of a dispute between Dublin Corporation and Dublin County Council. I asked the Minister why existing full-time personnel within the Dublin fire brigade service were not trained in the use of breathing apparathus. He chose not to reply. Apparently within the Dublin fire brigade service now the only personnel who have full training in the use of breathing apparatus and in breathing apparatus procedures at fires are the men who went to Britain to be trained in the use of that apparatus as instructors. It seems there is no training of the other men in the use of the breathing apparatus, and consequently there is no procedure laid down for using breathing apparatus at major fires.

Let us take the example of a major fire in an area of public resort where it is necessary to send large numbers of fire brigade personnel on a recurring basis into an inferno where those personnel are using breathing apparatus and where it is necessary to keep track of them to realise for what length of time they will be able to operate properly using this apparatus and take into account what the hazards in relation to noxious or dangerous fumes are likely to be. There is nobody who has the qualifications or the training in the control of breathing apparatus procedures at major fires operating in the Dublin fire brigade service. I may be wrong, but I would assume that if there is nobody within the Dublin area, there hardly is in counties like Laois and Offaly. Perhaps I am doing a disservice to those two counties. I would merely say that I would assume that if that training and expertise is not in Dublin it is less likely to be in other services. In the part-time services, the retaining stations in North County Dublin, there is no breathing apparatus whatsoever because the men have not been trained in the use of it. In that regard — and this is something that is regrettable and I hope that I will be proved wrong — unless firemen are adequately and comprehensively trained in the use of breathing apparatus and in the use of all the backup facilities needed in the fighting of modern fires, especially in view of the degree and the prevalence of dangerous fumes given off by fires such as this, there are going to be deaths in fires and those deaths will be within the fire service. We were talking generally about providing a comprehensive modern service to prevent fire and to save life in the event of fire, lives of members of the general public. I am now talking at as basic a level as saving the lives of men operating within the fire service which I believe are at risk at present. I am advised by personnel within the fire service that lives are at risk at present because of the absence of that training in the use of this specialised equipment.

I do not want to delay the House any further. I would merely refer the Minister to the evasive replies which he gave on 19 March in relation to the use of breathing apparatus and the rather Pontius Pilate-like attitude which he adopted by saying that it was not really anything to do with his Department. If the matter of breathing apparatus is not a matter for the Minister's Department, I can only ask him why he has to tell the House now that in April this year detailed guidelines on the use of breathing apparatus were issued to local authorities. There is a responsibility on the Department in this regard and the Department have not acted up to their responsibilities very well. Endeavouring to head off the criticism by saying that there is some imaginary dispute between the county council and the corporation — of course there is not — in relation to whether or not part-time firemen should use breathing apparatus is doing less than justice to the firemen in the retaining stations, and it is certainly doing less than justice to the firemen in the full-time service, very many of whom have no training either in the use of breathing apparatus.

I appreciate that within the Bill the Minister has referred to the provisions which will allow for the setting up of a fire training standards council. But from the point of view of reassuring the personnel in the service to so great a degree, the Minister might have dealt with the type of courses which he would envisage being provided for fire personnel in the country. I would have thought that at an administrative level, if not at a technical level, the Institute of Public Administration ought to have been involved in the provision of courses such as this as well as, perhaps, the Institute of Industrial Research and Standards in relation to advice in connection with certain dangerous chemicals and the like. Again, from the point of view of the personnel within the service, the Minister could with merit deal, in the course of his reply, with the type of courses which he envisages might be provided for men.

The report of 1975 also dealt with the question of communications. It is stated on page 80 that as with any emergency service, efficiency in the fire service depends largely on good communications and this applies both to the link between the public and the service, the inter-service links, and to the entire communications within the service. It goes on to say that in many rural areas telephones are still non-automatic. Out of charity to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs I will not refer any more to that. The report goes on to deal with the number of subscribers connected to manual exchanges. Let us compare the situation in 1975, when the working party report saw fit to deal in some detail with the failures of the telephone service and what was necessary to set up a good communications system, with the situation that obtains today in the control room of Tara Street station, the main nerve centre for the fire brigade service in the Dublin region and the main centre in which the major accident plan for Dublin first comes into operation. The simple fact is that, in relation to the operation of that control room in Tara Street, the union representing officers and men has, twice over the last couple of years, informed the Dublin City and County Manager that they will not be responsible for any deaths or mistakes that occur in relation to fire occurrences or major accidents arising out of malfunctions in that control room because of its inadequacy. Improvements in the control room the nerve centre of the Dublin fire services in Tara Street, which have been promised for the last two years have not taken place. In this age of high technological advance, in this era when virtually not a day goes by without some further announcement about improved methods of communications, in this era of the microchip, a senior sub-officer in Tara Street could tell me, in the last month that when he went on duty as a sub-officer in charge of the control room in Tara Street, his single link with the outside world was a telephone, and his single method of utilising that telephone was a Dublin telephone directory with more than half of its pages missing.

The control room in the Tara Street station which is responsible for the operation of the fire services in the capital city and the Dublin sub-region, has no register whatsoever or no indication of where dangerous chemicals or noxious chemicals are stored, or where hazards of that nature are likely to be encountered in the event of a fire. That control room, to bring it home to those in this Chamber, is the nerve centre responsible for fighting fires throughout Dublin, including fires in this House. If a major conflagration broke out in this House, that control room would be responsible for fighting it. That is the level of its communication or contact with the outside world.

Incidentally, within weeks of the Stardust tragedy, for the second if not the third time, the men operating that control room notified the Dublin City Manager that they were disclaiming any part or responsibility in the event of any disaster occurring and the control room being found to be at fault. The Minister hardly needs to be reminded, for instance, that the fire tender in the retained station in Skerries which falls within the responsibility, again, of the Dublin fire brigade services in the Dublin sub-region and is in an area which he and I personally know well, last year itself went on fire on its way to a call. Contrast that at operational level with the standard obtainable in the nerve centre at Tara Street, with the lack of fire prevention education measures, the lack of properly qualified personnel as fire prevention officers and one sees the real state of the fire services today. There is no point in endeavouring to present the picture any differently.

It does not redound at all to the credit of anyone to compare the amount of capital moneys which "my Government" spent as opposed to the amount of current expenditure of "your Government". Simply, the fire service is in a pretty deplorable state, into which it has been allowed to fall by reason of attitudes adopted by the Department over a prolonged period of time. It has not been allowed to evolve into a modern service because of the absence of modern comprehensive legislation. It has not been developed to its full potential. For instance, the chief fire adviser to the Minister had eventually to go to the High Court to have his voice heard, even within the corridors of the Custom House. That is the situation and there is no point in our trying to present it as being otherwise.

I have tabled parliamentary questions which will elicit the information requested, but it would be interesting, to say the least — and I rather fear that it might be frightening in certain instances — to investigate how often, how regularly and how recently fire drills took place in our major hospitals, institutions, schools, other public buildings generally and within the Government Departments. When was there last a full-scale fire drill in this House? The simple fact of the matter is — and we are going to have our attention drawn very forcibly to this area in the coming months — as I said earlier, the use to such a high degree of chemicals in the manufacture of modern furniture and fittings has changed entirely the methods necessary for fire fighting and the expertise needed for fire prevention advice. This country has not adequately comprehended the way in which the fitting out of buildings, whether public or private, has changed in the last number of years. Apart from the hazards of death through fire itself, the risk of death through poisoning by inhalation of noxious fumes is apparently a very high and very serious risk indeed and a major contributor to death in certain instances. In the light of that sort of situation, we must rethink our entire attitude towards the fire service.

Would the Minister refer in greater detail to a number of items on which he touched in the course of his speech? He mentioned that the draft building regulations, with amendments, had been published and that he had asked the local authorities to implement them as if they had the force of law and that he intended to give that force of law shortly. Would the Minister explain to the House how shortly is shortly? I hope he will not tell us it is in the immediate or near future but that he will give a more specific date. Since 1976, when the draft building regulations were published, in those areas where there were not already building by-law regulations in operation, the local and planning authorities did operate the draft building regulations as if they had the force of law. That was happening every day of the week and it did not require a telegram, or letter, or message by pigeon post from the Minister of the Environment to tell the local authorities to do what they were already doing. As we all know, anybody who wants to tell the local authorities that they have not the power to implement those regulations and that those regulations have not the force of law may do so. Until the Minister responsible, who happens to be this Minister, gives the draft building regulations the necessary change, titling them the National Building Regulations, anyone who does not want to observe these regulations need not do so.

The Minister might, with merit, explain to the House, especially in relation to the qualifications for personnel within the fire services, whether or not he and his Department have finally resolved the conflict in this area. The report of 1975 recommended, at paragraph 8.10.1, page 69, under the heading of "Promotion and Training":

We support the McKinsey recommendation——

that was a recommendation made, I think, in 1972. Certainly it was the best part of ten years ago——

——that opportunity should be created for promotion to Chief Fire Officer within the service. Enhanced promotion possibilities are likely to bring improvement in morale and application in the lower ranks, as well as enhancing the prospects of attracting to the service a greater quantity of high quality recruits with an interest in the service as a career. It will also help to ensure that future heads of the service will come to office with a full range of prior experience and highly developed skills in both operational and prevention work.

When that was written and when McKinsey made their report a chief fire officer had to have an engineering degree in the same way as a fire prevention officer had to have an engineering degree. He did not need any other qualifications and did not need to have been an operational officer within the fire service. He did not need to have any practical experience of fire-fighting. That was the situation when that paragraph was written. It is still the situation today. The Minister might decide to use, as his explanation or apology, the fact that this was the majority report and that two of the 15 members appointed to the working party did not sign the report. However, the two who did not sign it were the two members representing the Chief Fire Officers' Association and, in fairness to them, this was possibly understandable.

We have a fire service today in which the personnel fighting fires on the ground can only rise to a certain grade and cannot rise to the senior grade of chief fire officer or second officer. The only personnel who can be recruited to those grades are, one can venture to say with a fair level of confidence and certainty, personnel with no operational experience. It is highly unlikely that any young engineering graduate would leave university and apply for a job as a fireman in any of the national fire services. Until they do so there will not be officers of senior grade with practical experience except for those officers who gain that experience subsequent to their appointment. Therefore, the recommendation in the 1975 report and which is not dealt with in the Minister's speech — it is skirted away from in the Bill to some extent also — will have to be dealt with too. We will have to face up to the question of what is to be the promotional structure of the fire service for the future.

Regarding the penalty provisions in section 5, the Minister said that in some quarters these proposed penalties might be regarded as Draconian. That was not the word he used but it seemed to be what he was suggesting. I do not think that these penalties are at all Draconian. They are set at the levels at which they should be set and at these levels they should be a deterrent in terms of the violation of the provisions of this Bill. However, it is wrong to set monetary sums in legislation, whether these sums refer to grants or to anything else. More than 40 years have elapsed since the predecessor of this Bill was discussed here. None of us is ready to admit to sin and we may expect the Minister to assure the House that another 40 years will not elapse before today's legislation is updated. We all know that big bodies move slowly and that the updating of legislation is not nearly as efficient as it should be. When we write a figure into legislation in respect of a penalty or of a grant we are ensuring to a fair degree that that legislation will become obsolete within a relatively short number of years even if inflation is to continue at even half its present level. Consequently fines ought not to be specified in legislation. They should be set by way of regulation. Whether such regulations should come before the House for ratification would be a matter for debate, but in any case we should exclude figures in the context of penalties when we are passing legislation.

Another aspect that I should like to draw attention to relates to an omission from the Bill. There ought to have been included also in section 5 a provision for a daily recurring fine so that anybody found to be in flagrant violation of some of the provisions of this legislation would be aware that he would be subject not only to a once-off fine but to repeated fines either at the same level or at different levels in respect of every day during which the danger in question to the general public in terms of fire danger was continuing.

Finally, in relation to the Dublin major accident plan, the central control room in this report is at Tara Street Fire Station. As I have said, that is the first place that is contacted in the event of this plan being put into operation. It is not my intention to go into detail of the operation of the plan or to discuss the question of whether it is necessary to update it in certain respects. The responsibility of the Minister for the Environment in this context involves only a limited area, but in so far as he is involved I suggest strongly that there be regular full-scale exercises of the Dublin major accident plan so that all of the component personnel who have a part to play within that plan would be fully aware of their role and that all of the staffs who operate on a shift-working basis would be involved in these regular exercises. In this way staff on duty at any time would be aware of what would be involved.

With merit and with benefit the Government Departments involved might examine again at this point the operation of this plan in the light of the information that is available to them following its operation in February of this year.

In so far as this Bill gives belated effect to the recommendations in the 1975 report, I welcome it. It meets very many of the objectives of the working party as put forward by them in 1975. The main area of regret is that it has taken so long for the Bill to reach this House.

My remarks, especially in relation to fire prevention measures and to the training of the personnel within the fire service, are remarks that I have thought about very deeply. I am most anxious that they be given serious and urgent consideration. The area of fire prevention is the most important area needing attention now. There is also a very urgent need to deal with developments in the production of chemical fuel by-products in fire fighting. Since the comprehensive training that is necessary to enable the personnel concerned to deal with these changes cannot be dealt with in detail in the Bill, all those who have an interest in the development of the fire service, including those who work within it, would appreciate the Minister dealing with his proposals in this area when replying to this Second Stage debate.

I welcome the introduction of any Bill which proposes to improve the position in respect of fire fighting. I had hoped that this Bill would have been debated on a totally non-political basis because I have always been of the opinion that excellent legislation can be discussed and put into operation provided that the goodwill of everybody concerned is brought to bear on the proposals in question. However, I must fault the Minister on his introduction of a note of acrimony. He began by talking about the amount of money that this Government have spent in the area of fire fighting compared with what was spent by us while in Government. Since I was the person responsible for this area at that time, I might point out to the Minister something which he is well aware of, that is, that if we take present-day money values and compare them with the values of the days when we were in office, he would be just as well not to go too deeply into that point.

This Bill is very necessary. My predecessor set up the committee that investigated the whole position of fire fighting. That was in 1972 and the report was presented in 1975. If I had been in office for another few years this legislation would, I hope, have been enacted. I am not blaming the Minister for the delay. He has been in charge of the Department for only a relatively short time but his predecessor should have done something about the legislation. There is no point in saying that the matter was one for the officials of the Department. I am sure that the officials worked very hard on this legislation; but it is for the Minister, as political head of the Department, to ensure that the legislation is produced. It is not any answer to say that the legislation was not ready. The Minister should know why it was not ready. He should insist that legislation is ready when necessary.

I would not go all the way with Deputy Boland on the question of who might have been saved had this Bill been introduced earlier. Possibly a lot of lives could have been saved. Nobody knows that and there is no use in saying that it would have saved lives. We do not know what the effect will be. All I hope is that in the years to come it will save a lot of lives.

I believe this is an ideal Committee Stage Bill, a Bill in which the improvements which should be introduced, can be argued on the floor of this House on Committee Stage. The Minister should take note of the discussion, as I know he is doing, on Second Stage. Before Committee Stage is reached he should be ready with amendments which will improve the Bill and say whether or not he considers he can introduce such amendments. That is the way in which legislation can be improved.

The Minister has a proposal about the fire services. While Deputy Boland dealt with them on a fairly wide scale, he tended to deal with what he knew best, which perhaps was the right thing to do, the Dublin county and city area. I have a knowledge of the fire services from two angles, one because, as a trade union official, for many years I represented fire services at discussion after discussion. I grant that in the main these discussions were in regard to working conditions and wages. We discussed things that were not happening, things that should have happened and from which I gained an experience of fire fighting which proved very useful to me at a later stage. In the Custom House I firmly believed, and still believe, that promotion from the ranks to the top position in the service is something which should be open to everybody who can make the climb. I entirely agree that having a few academic degrees does not constitute any proof that the person in charge knows more about fire fighting; in fact, the contrary is the case. I believe that the person who has had to work his way up from the bottom, who knows what he is doing and how it should be done, eventually will prove to be a better fire officer than somebody who, because he happens to be an engineer with knowledge of something entirely different, is put in charge of a fire service.

I think it is wrong also that, for any reason vacancies should occur at that level or at second level. Because of disputes between the Department, the local authorities, the fire officers and the service vacancies have occurred over the years, when the second fire officer has been carrying out the duties of the chief fire officer over a lengthy period. There should be an instant way of solving such problems. Fire prevention is much too serious to be left in abeyance for a long period while somebody discusses whether or not decisions should be taken in favour of the fire officers or the employers' representatives. It appears to be the second fire officers who more than anybody else suffer as a result of this, that their grievances are not settled within a reasonable period. They seem unable to bring their grievances to a head. It is quite true that for a number of years second fire officers worked day shifts and did not work at night. Can anybody think of anything more ridiculous than having people, dealing with a service required mainly at night, not on call at night because they were in dispute over a few shillings. The situation was too ridiculous for words. There must be a strict arrangement whereby such disputes can be settled, not in six months or 12 months, but within a relatively short time.

There has been mention here of the chief fire officer in the Custom House. I believe that if it is his duty to advise the Department then he should do so. If the Minister wants advice he should be in a position to seek that advice from the chief fire officer. Just as in the case of every other official who gives him advice, there is no necessity for the Minister to act on that advice. But, when advice is given which after mature consideration is considered to be correct, then it should be acted on. If the chief fire officer cannot do that, what is the point? Why have somebody — somebody paid a sizeable amount of money — not allowed to advise on what he has been appointed to advise on? When there is a difference of opinion between senior officials in any Department, that is a matter the Minister must straighten out. He must decide that he needs the advice of these people. He must insist that he receives an unbiased report on all such matters. My experience of officials from top to bottom, particularly during my time in the Department of Local Government, was that they were excellent people, prepared at all times to go out of their way to ensure that correct advice was given. However, from time to time there may be a difference of opinion between people at that level. I do not believe that should effect the running of the country but that is exactly what it does if allowed to continue. It is the job of the political head of the Department to ensure that it does not continue.

The Minister referred to the type of fire prevention equipment people buy. Breathing apparatus is very important. There should and must be more training in the use of breathing apparatus. I was rather amused at Deputy Boland's story about the fire engine going on fire; at least they had not to call the brigade and should have been able to put it out fairly quickly. I am aware of places throughout the country where until fairly recently some of the fire prevention service officers travelled by bicycle, one man with a bucket, another with a hose and yet another with a pump. Imagine that in the eighties, but it still exists in some areas where there is a very small brigade. There are those people who would contend: what use are they? Why should they be there at all if they are that bad? The reason for their existence is that the nearest fire service which could deal adequately with a blaze is so far away there has to be some local service to ensure that a fire does not get out of hand. As far as I know, there is only one of them left now.

There is also the question of where fire engines are bought. We are told they are bought abroad and are so expensive we cannot afford them. In County Meath there was a factory built to make the Timoney tank, a tank that was to be sold all over the world. Some years ago our Army were talking about buying 50 or 60 of them, when there would be a great boom in the industry there. I was speaking yesterday to the gentleman who owns that firm and I was glad to hear from him that their activities now are devoted mainly to building fire engines. Might I suggest to the Minister that he should be able to buy fire engines — Déanta in Éirinn — at a reasonable cost, made in County Meath. I pass this information on to the Minister for what it is worth. It would be an excellent idea. The building of such fire engines would be more useful to our economy than the building of tanks.

There has been quite a lot of talk about whether or not the fire regulations are being implemented. I do not believe they are. I know there was a great flurry of talk at the time of the Stardust tragedy. But I am aware that people tend to become lax in this respect and this House is one example of it. At one time I was in a room in the corridor down by the bar. At that time new arrangements had been made about fire fighting. There an arrow pointing to the door entering the room which said "Exit". There was an arrow inside the door pointing to the window which said "Exit". It was pointed out to us that this was the fire escape in case the rest of the House, the ordinary doors, were cut off. There were bars on that window and it could not be opened from the inside. It could not be opened anyway; even if the window was open, it was impossible for anybody to get out. That happened in this House many years ago. Since then they have made the window easier to open and they have cut the bars and put a hinge on them so that people will find it easier to get out if the need arises.

There are a number of fire traps. While we were very anxious to ensure that something was done when the Stardust disaster occurred, we are forgetting it now. This House, the Custom House, O'Connell Bridge House and most of the offices in the city are fire traps from which people could not escape in the event of a serious fire occurring. Schools and hospitals are also badly designed and many old folk would never get out of some of the hospitals alive if a fire occurred. In a country district where I was a member of the health board I had a hospital closed. It has since been reopened but the top floor to which I objected is no longer used. The access to the top floor was up a narrow wooden staircase and the only fire escape was by way of a slide down to the lower floor or by a sort of swing chair where people would be swung out over the yard and swung two floors down to the ground. That was years ago, but some hospitals are still as bad as that. It is appalling that we should keep old people or ill people in such places.

This Bill does not go far enough to ensure that these matters are attended to. Deputy Boland referred to a continuing fine, but that is not much use in punishing a well-to-do business person. Prison terms are the only answer for those who deliberately break the law. The Bill does not lay down in strong enough terms the regulations which will bind the authorities giving permission to use buildings for various types of entertainment. The inspection of places of entertainment should not be carried out at 10 o'clock in the morning but they should be carried out when the building is full of people. The examinations up to the present were carried out when places were empty and nobody ever knew whether the doors were kept closed or were opened or whether they could be opened in the event of an emergency. I understand that there has been a change in the procedure now, but it should be written into the Bill. It should be mandatory if over a certain number of people are in a building to have somebody on the doors at all times until the last patron leaves. If that had happened in the past many tragedies would not have occurred. There should be a secondary lighting system; there should be the right type of panic bolt on the door, and there should be a certain number of doors. All these things should be laid down in the Bill. These things are laid down in the draft building regulations about which we were talking earlier, but they should be in this Bill so that nobody can claim ignorance of their existence.

There should be an adequate supply of water to a building before permission is granted to allow people to congregate there in large numbers. There is no point in sending out a fire brigade if the water is not available.

During Question Time we had a "spat" about where itinerants live, but the miracle is that more of them have not been burned in the flimsy dwellings in which they live. How can we tie this sort of thing into a legal phraseology which would ensure that the risk is at least minimised if not entirely removed? We should also have a regulation to insist on a fire extinguisher in all motor vehicles. In one motor accident a man was burned to death because the fire was not put out and a simple fire extinguisher could have dealt with the matter adequately.

I have always held and when in Government I suggested that insurance companies are the main beneficiaries when it comes to the question of saving life or property and they should pay a substantial amount towards the maintenance and use of fire brigades. If a fireplace goes on fire the fire brigade puts it out and the insurance company may save a half a million pounds or more. However, they are not prepared to pay a shilling towards the upkeep of fire brigades. If possible this should be written into this Bill. It would ensure that they paid their share.

In earlier days part-time brigades consisting of one full-time worker and quite a number of part-time recruits operated throughout the country. Most of these recruits lived near the fire brigade station and it was hoped that most of them would turn out in the event of a fire. These people were paid a relatively small sum of money for doing a certain number of practices during the week. In some places now fire brigade staffs have been overworked because it has become common practice to call out the fire brigade for a road accident. Most of the time there is no necessity for the fire brigade. It is not the function of the fire brigade to go to a road accident unless somebody has to be cut out. It is not fair to the fire brigade and it is unfair to the people concerned. I understand that it is now the practice under present regulations to collect from the people who call out the brigade.

When a storm occurs and trees fall down over the road instead of the local authority employees going out with saws to cut them away people send for the fire brigade. I do not believe it is the function of the fire brigade to do this work. Great inconvenience is caused to people who are in private employment rather than in local authority employment when they are called out to bog fires. There may be many of those during the summer. Those people could be employed a long time trying to put out those fires which often go underground and come up again 30 or 40 yards away. They have to follow the fire around until eventually it is put out. The onus should be put on the owners of property to do a lot more about putting out those fires instead of asking the fire brigade to do so.

The Minister should consider having more full-time fire brigades. The cost of running part-time brigades can be very high. The people employed as part-time firemen run the risk of being unsatisfactory employees in other jobs. They often have to work with the local fire brigade during the night and have to turn up for work the next day. I do not know what the cost of this would be now. In view of the amount of money to be paid out, it might be a good idea to do something about it.

Special attention should be given to bingo halls. A number of young people were in the Stardust when the fire occurred and they should have been able to get out with a little co-operation. We find mainly elderly people in bingo halls. Many of them have been brought in cars and have been put sitting down as close as possible together. I do not believe fire precautions are satisfactory in some of those bingo halls. We should ensure that those people can get out safely in the case of a fire. I heard recently of a fairly new place of entertainment where the doors open inwards. Possibly this happens in a great many places. The people who are responsible for seeing that fire precautions are properly carried out should pay particular attention to places like this. They usually take it for granted that there are proper fire precautions.

We talk about referring to the fire officer in the Custom House. When I was a member of Meath County Council I was angry when he closed a number of halls because they could not provide panic bolts and secondary lighting. I realised some time afterwards that he was perfectly right and that those places were death traps. I felt at the time that he was very severe on small committees who could not afford to buy the necessary equipment for those halls.

I have always felt that the fire officers should come up from the ranks but I appreciate that the Fire Officers' Association publicly stated less than a year ago that they felt we were heading for a major fire disaster. We thought it was scare talk. While I welcome the introduction of the Bill and feel it is intended to remedy many of the defects in the present legislation nevertheless a lot more can be done only with the assistance of expert advice.

When we talk about fire fighting, people living around the cities and the towns think of the fire brigade. They think of the people who always answer the calls, who are on call and within a reasonable distance. When one talks about the city fire plan or the county fire plan, what about the hall in the heart of the country, the school, the hospital or some old house, like the house in County Clare during the week, where fire brigades are a long distance away? If something goes wrong when the fire starts it is a long time before the fire service can be made available.

A great effort should be made to encourage people to provide some type of fire fighting equipment. It is quite possible that a fire which starts in a small way in a country house, where many people still use open fires, can burn people to death or they can be suffocated. There are approximately 600 houses in the area where I live, where formerly there used only be 50 houses, and we have a cover from the Drogheda brigade. There are two fire engines in the Drogheda station but if one of them is out in County Louth the second one is not supposed to leave the town of Drogheda because it is fairly big. There used be a small fire station in Laytown and a number of other villages in the area. An effort should be made to try to cover the small areas with some fire fighting equipment. If a fire occurs in such an area at the moment in a very short time if the brigade are available they will be there. As we saw recently, it does not take long for a fire to do a great amount of damage.

The Bill puts into operation many of the recommendations of the 1975 working party but it still leaves too many loopholes. There are many things which should be dealt with. I hope that when we have Committee Stage we will be able to tease out a number of those things and possibly arrange to have included matters which people on this side of the House feel should have been included.

Insurance companies are co-operating to a certain extent with advisory services. I have always felt that since they are the people who save most money when a fire is prevented or put out they should contribute a lot more than they do to the prevention of fires. This could be done without increasing premiums. If it were done properly it could result in a reduction in premiums because the fewer fires there are the more the insurance companies are likely to make.

I welcome this Bill because in my view an up-to-date Bill had to be introduced and I am glad it has been introduced now. Section 37 covers almost all the matters raised in the debate last March. No matter why it was introduced, this is a very worthy effort and I hope it will be possible to have this Bill law before the Twenty-First Dáil breaks up.

I welcome this Bill and the speed with which it was brought before the House. It is easy for the Opposition to criticise the Minister for the delay in introducing this Bill, but I do not recall any questions over the last four years asking about this Bill or when it was coming before the House. It is easy to be wise after the event.

This Bill was almost ready when we had that unfortunate disaster. I would like the Minister to draft a section where the chief fire officer, if he found a building was positively dangerous, did not have to wait for the District Court order but could close the building down and then go to the District Court for the order. Perhaps the Minister would tell me if this is done in certain parts of the world.

In America if hygiene is below a certain standard a health officer can close the premises and when the necessary work has been carried out the management must then apply to re-open. The same type of thing should apply here where fire is concerned because we are not fully conscious of the dangers of fire. In 1966 I went to America and visited hospitals which dealt with severely burned cases. I saw young children who had been maimed in domestic fires. They had to undergo many painful operations over a period of years. Some of those children were lucky and died, but those who lived had to endure tremendous pain. We will never realise the dangers of fire until we see such scenes.

Firms should show their staff how to operate fire extinguishers. Most firms have fire extinguishers but how many staff members know how to use them? They should be told when to use a carbon dioxide extinguisher or a water extinguisher. There should be more fire awareness in these companies. In many cases fire extinguishers are not regularly examined.

The task force should be instructed to carry out a survey to find out how fire-conscious firms are. I once worked for Marks and Spencers, a very fire-conscious firm. I remember when a fire officer from head office came to me and said "Do not look round and tell me where the nearest fire extinguisher is". That was the type of training every staff member got. Each week a different staff member was on duty as fire officer. He had to go around the store looking for fire risks, making sure there were no cigarette butts lying around and so on. That kind of exercise makes people very fire-conscious. Even after this horrible disaster we are not fully conscious of the dangers and horror of fire.

I commend the Minister for introducing this Bill but I once again would ask him to see if it would be possible to empower the chief fire officer to close a dangerous building in advance of getting the District Court order.

I thank the three speakers who contributed to this debate and who welcomed this Bill. I agree with Deputy Tully that this is very complex and long legislation and I look forward to a thorough debate on all sections on Committee Stage. I want to reassure him that I will be prepared to consider any constructive suggestions which will improve the provisions of this Bill. Between now and Committee Stage I will take into account many points raised by Deputies today. If, in the light of examination of those suggestions, there is need for amendments, I will be willing to accept them.

Many points raised in the debate — improvement of training, fire prevention, emergency lighting, and so on — are already covered in the Bill and will be dealt with more fully on Committee Stage.

I share Deputy Briscoe's horror of the injury that can be caused by fire. We have re-introduced provisions in the 1940 Act which cover fire notices, the period of appeal to the District Court and so on, but much more important is the provision he is looking for, and which received general acceptance by the media and the public, the power to go to the High Court to get immediate closure in certain circumstances. This is the key section of the Bill.

Deputy Tully asked about our capacity to produce fire fighting equipment, including engines, at home. I am glad the capacity is there and my intention is that the production ability available in Ireland will be taken into consideration when we are designing and specifying equipment for fire tenders. It is also the intention that the 50 per cent subsidy on loan charges introduced to help to equip and maintain fire services will encourage local authorities to improve their equipment and there is hope here for the provision of new jobs.

Deputies Boland and Tully spoke about penalties, fines and prison sentences. The sections in the Bill on this matter are rigid and strong enough. We can look into this matter thoroughly during Committee Stage.

I join the two Deputies in praising the work of the fire services throughout the country, full and part-time. This Bill is designed to assist them in their work. The Bill provides for evolution to assist in building up a modern fire service. I have no doubt that the section in regard to training and the provision to set up a training council will assist fire personnel throughout the country.

Deputy Boland asked about building regulations. Up to last March the building regulations being operated were unamended. It was necessary to make 600 amendments to the regulations and the position is that the regulations being operated by the local authorities are fully amended. Deputy Boland, as a member and former chairman of Dublin County Council will be aware of this. The Deputy made a good suggestion in regard to the register that will be available of inspections of premises. There are provisions in relation to recommendations, the numbers of visits and the times of the visits. I will go more deeply into this on Committee Stage. Deputy Boland also spoke about marquees and so forth. They are covered in the Bill.

The funding of the proposed Fire Prevention Council and the task force were referred to by Deputy Boland. I assure him that the task force are operating now. There is a programme of seminars, conferences and so forth at various centres for managers and proprietors of discos, dancehalls, publichouses, hotels and other places of public entertainment. I opened the first of them on 22 April. It is also intended that there will be radio, television, press and cinema campaigns with the object of educating the public in regard to the exercise of diligence and awareness when attending places of public entertainment. That campaign will be commenced shortly. The preparation of leaflets and posters for proprietors and managers of discos, dancehalls, night clubs and function rooms in hotels giving guidance on fire safety procedures is in hand. Some of them have already been produced.

Conscious of the need for this type of education, particularly after the terrible tragedy, the Government have allocated £125,000 to the task force. Many of the points made by Deputy Boland were not relevant to the Bill but more to the internal operations of fire services in local authorities. He mentioned Dublin County Council and I would remind him that the 50 per cent subsidy on loan charges which I have introduced will be an incentive to the local authority to being their equipment up to date.

I would refer the Deputy to the magnificent response of the control room in Tara Street on the night of the Stardust disaster. If that control room needs new equipment the grants are there for them and I would encourage Dublin Corporation, the body responsible, to get on with the work. The Deputy suggested a review of the general accident plan. On every occasion when the accident plan was put into operation, no matter which part of the country it involved, the whole working of the plan was reviewed, and any desirable alterations or improvements were made.

Deputy Boland made great play of the availability of breathing apparatus, particularly in Dublin city and county. There are seven breathing apparatus instructors in the Dublin Fire Brigade, all of them full-time firemen. I personally took up with Dublin Corporation the need for an adequate training programme and the corporation have made arrangements to train fire service personnel in the use of breathing apparatus at Castlebridge training centre in County Wexford pending the provision by the corporation of their own training centre. I cannot see any reason why the part-time men should not also have this facility.

Many of the other points made by the Deputies are more relevant to the detailed debate in Committee. Once again I want to express my sense of pleasure at having had the opportunity to introduce this major piece of legislation, the first substantial review of the operations of the fire services since 1940. It is unfortunate that it has taken that length of time by different administrations. The Bill has been recognised as a comprehensive review which sets down the path of future fire service personnel. The major industrial and other changes that have occurred are recognised, with emphasis on training in fire prevention. We will be able to deal in detail with the other points made when we discuss the Bill in Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

When it is proposed to take Committee Stage?

Next Tuesday, 12 May 1981.

I would like a longer period.

Tuesday, 19 May 1981.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 19 May 1981.
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