Deputy O'Donnell is in possession.
Telecommunications Capital Bill, 1981: Second Stage (Resumed) and Subsequent Stages.
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
Bhí deis agam an Déardaoin seo caite barúil a thabhairt agus dá bhrí sin níil sé i gceist agam leanúint i bhfad mar is mian leis an Teachta Corish agus Teachtaí eile labhairt ar an mBille.
Last Thursday on the introduction of this Bill by the Minister of State, Deputy Killilea, we had an opportunity to look at the contents and the purpose of this Bill, which is merely an interim measure to keep the show going until such time as An Bord Telecom is established. That is one of the two State bodies it is proposed to set up to administer the postal and telecommunications service. In the course of his speech last week the Minister of State said that much remained to be done to improve the standard of our telephone service. That was stating the obvious. We must recognise that we have the worst telephone service in western Europe. The lack of a modern telecommunications service is proving to be a serious impediment to the economic development and social progress of our country. The unsatisfactory nature of the telecommunications service was exacerbated in 1978 and 1979 during the prolonged industrial dispute in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Another aspect is that 40 per cent of our subscribers cannot be contacted directly from Dublin. It is amusing and perhaps significant that I can dial major centres in western Europe and in the US but that I cannot dial directly my own home at Bruree 33 in Limerick.
The Minister gave quite a lot of statistical information in relation to the progress of the telephone service, the enormous increase in the number of applications and the failure of the Department to keep up with the enormous backlog which was worsened considerably during the long strike. It is important that we as a nation recognise the important role that telecommunications can play in our development and progress. It is unfortunate that we have the worst telecommunications service in western Europe because we are a small island on the periphery of Europe and the lifeblood of our economy depends on exports and foreign trade. It is vitally important that all our industries should have available to them the most efficient and sophisticated telecommunications system that can be provided. There are jobs at stake. There are businesses at stake. The entire western seaboard is dependent on tourism. It is constituted of regions to which successive Governments have been trying to attract industry in order to create jobs. Business has been stymied and impeded and severely disrupted because of the inadequacy of the telephone service. When I was Minister for the Gaeltacht I met industrialist after industrialist suffering extreme frustration because of the inadequacy of the telephone service.
Reference has been made to the extension of the data processing service. This is very important. I had a very bad experience in relation to a computer operation established in Furbo in the Connemara Gaeltacht which subsequently folded up because of unsatisfactory telephone connections. The transmission of computer data is done through the normal telephone system. Because the system was so bad the industry was lost. The Minister will agree it is becoming more and more difficult to attract industry to these areas, areas still dependent on manually operated telephones. We must look at this situation very carefully. There are a number of extremely urgent steps to be taken if we are to tackle the enormous backlog in the number of applications, in the technology, in the obsolescent equipment and so on. It is an enormous job to modernise and streamline in order to achieve the most modern technological equipment, particularly digitalised equipment, which appears to be the most advanced, the most satisfactory and the most sophisticated.
A number of steps of grave urgency must be taken. The decision has been made to hive off the telecommunications section to An Bord Telecom and the postal services to An Bord Phoist. It is essential that An Bord Telecom be legislated for, equipped and structured as quickly as possible. At the same time great care must be taken to ensure that the transfer from the present civil service structure to the semi-State structure is done as efficiently as possible in full consultation with the staff, the unions and so on. When the evolution is complete I am sure it will be a case of full speed ahead.
I am very disappointed the Minister did not see fit to supply us with a White Paper. There may be very good reasons for not doing so but a comprehensive debate on communications is greatly inhibited because of the lack of a White Paper. I understand a White Paper is in course of preparation on telecommunications. This will be very relevant to the establishment of An Bord Telecom. Our expectations were raised with regard to the availability of a White Paper. However, I have been long enough here now to know that overdependence on White Papers or Green Papers will not solve problems. This is a very complex area and there is an enormous backlog to be made up. Anything I say in regard to An Bord Telecom is equally relevant to An Bord Phoist. The powers and functions assigned to the board and the general constitution of the board will determine whether or not in the eighties we can develop a modern telecommunications network. Our objective must be to aim at as efficient a system as possible, a system as efficient as that obtaining in our partner countries in the EEC.
There are enormous technological problems involved plus an enormous financial commitment. There were estimates a year ago of £650 million for a four or five year programme. That figure has gone up now to £800 million. It is reasonable to assume that the Bill will reach £1,000 million. The application of new technology is sine qua non. A decision has been taken to concentrate on digital equipment. Having had experience of this in the European Parliament and in Brussels I know it is an almost magic system compared to what we are used to here. The replacement of the existing system will be a very large undertaking. There is then the financial aspect. The money will have to be found. The expenditure can be justified. I have been very worried at our image in Europe because of our telephone service. It has done us no good. The service has impeded the work of An Bord Fáilte, Córas Tráchtála, the IDA and the other agencies whose job it is to encourage industry and promote exports. We must get our priorities right. The money must be found.
The Minister referred to different sources in order to raise finance. I was interested to note he got substantial financing from the EIB. My colleagues and I who are members of the Regional Policy Committee have been emphasising over and over again the vital importance of telecommunications here and the fact that we regard telecommunications as a very intricate part of the basic infrastructure of the nation. Government policy in relation to the Regional Fund — and here I am sure that whatever Government is in power they will have the full support of all the Irish members of the European Parliament — must seek and ensure more financial assistance from European institutions. The European Investment Bank is a different ball game — it is more a commercial operation — but emphasis must continue to be placed on the improvement of our telecommunications services. It must be continuosly presented in Brussels that this expenditure on the development of telecommunications could appropriately be met through the European Regional Fund.
The Minister in a statement some time after Christmas in relation to the financing of the development of our telecommunications said he was proposing to set up a State-financed company — I have been endeavouring to find the reference without success, so I do not have the precise words he used but when replying he might refer to this. It is dishonest or, if you like, we are living in cloud cuckoo land when we talk about the introduction of the most sophisticated technology into our telecommunications services while at the same time being unable to find the requisite moneys. I have referred to two possible sources, the European Investment Bank and the Regional Fund. The Minister referred to the setting up of a State-financed company which would contribute to the financing of the development of our telecommunications. I do not think there was any reference to this aspect in the speech of the Minister of State on Thursday last or if there was, it was not very detailed. Perhaps the Minister when replying would elaborate on what exactly he has in mind here. I think what he has in mind is the encouragement of private enterprise, the private sector, to contribute to the development of the national telecommunications system. The establishment of a State holding company may be the correct way in which to inject private capital into the development of our telecommunications services. The service must be improved, modernised and streamlined as quickly as possible and the requisite money must be found.
In relation to its technological aspects — as was referred to by the Minister of State in his introductory remarks — there have been fantastic developments in electronic science, particularly in digital science and the application of modern electronic science, through digital technology, to the international telecommunications systems. One aspect of this is most important and must be borne in mind, one on which I have laid great stress in this House on previous occasions: with the improvement and modernisation of our telecommunications system, entailing enormous capital expenditure, which creates a demand for an enormous amount of equipment and products of all kinds, new employment opportunities are created in the design, development and manufacture of those products and equipment. It should be a national priority that the maximum amount of such equipment and products be manufactured here by Irish people.
In his introductory remarks the Minister made reference to two developments. In recent years in this country there has been an impressive growth in the development of electronic science. We have succeeded in attracting a significant number of electronic industries here. One of the proposals to which I have referred is for a joint venture between Telectron and a French company. I had experience of Telectron during my term of office as Minister for the Gaeltacht as they have a very large branch in the Gweedore industrial estate agus tá aithne ag an Ceann Comhairle ar an tionscal sin agus sílim go raibh baint aige go pearsanta le bunú an tionscail sin. The progress of Telectron since it was established here is clear proof that we have the potential and the talent here, that given proper opportunity Irish enterprise, skill and talent can be applied to the development of the technology needed to modernise telecommunications and will have a very significant impact on employment, our balance of payments and so on.
The other proposal involves the Swedish Ericsson Company which I understand has a subsidiary plant in Athlone. Perhaps I might make a suggestion to the Minister in this regard. People tend to become emotional about multinational companies; there can be adverse reaction to them and so on. But the main emphasis must be placed on ensuring that the greater part of their manufacturing and production activities be carried out in Ireland by Irish people. Has the Minister considered the possibility of utilising the engineering personnel expertise and know-how existing in the Engineering Section of his Department, which will subsequently become An Bord Telecom. I am not sure whether any facilities exist for utilising that expertise, experience, talent, skill and know-how acquired by such personnel over the years. It might be a good idea to consider establishing a research unit for this purpose. The point I am getting at is this, rather than hand the whole lot over to foreign or foreign-participating industry, we should endeavour to utilise the research facilities, for example, of the National Institute for Higher Education in Limerick where there exists a high level of technological faculties. Perhaps it would be possible to utilise the undoubted engineering skills and expertise existing already in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Aontaím leis an mBille seo. Is Bille gairid é ach déanfaidh sé an gnó go dtí go mbeidh an Bord Telecom bunaithe.
The Minister can be assured that the passage of this Bill will not be delayed particularly in view of the recent information that seems to have filtered through from the Government Party to the effect that the Dáil will be dissolved at 4 O'clock tomorrow afternoon. However, we have heard so many rumours of this in the course of the last three weeks that the possibility remains of it being held in June 1982.
I do not disapprove of the measure introduced by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs seeking permission to borrow and spend as required £350 million over the next five years. It seems only a short time ago, when the Ceann Comhairle was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, that we gave permission to borrow a similar amount. Even though the five years is not yet up, I presume the bulk of the money has not been spent but that during the coming year the £350 million will be accounted for. In the background we have the proposal by the Government for the establishment of the telecommunications board. The Minister in his speech today did not seem very certain as to when this new State-sponsored board would be established. In one part he said "next year" and in another part he was not certain whether it would be another year or two, three, four or five years. In any case, in anticipation of it being established this year or next year I assume it will not be necessary for the Minister to draw on the £350 million from the Minister for Finance.
Expenditure in the Post Office as in many other State Departments is divided into two, the day-to-day operation — maintenance, upkeep, renewals and improvements in the service — and then what we are dealing with here today, capital expenditure which may appear to be a colossal sum but which is needed for the work necessary to give us a telephone service, that is, development works, establishing of new trunk routes, laying of cables whether underground or over-ground, extension of plant and installation of new telephones. I was very interested in that part of the Minister's speech where he said it costs £1,100 to instal a telephone plus other things such as expenditure on cable work and so on. The public might have a greater appreciation of the Minister's difficulties if they realised the actual cost. Inevitably when people approach us about telephones they say it needs only one pole or no pole at all. It is not so simple; it is not a question of connecting one pole with another. That information is revealing as far as I am concerned.
It is worthwhile capital expenditure because as regards current expenditure the better service we have the more revenue will accrue to the Department. Up to recently I believe that expenditure on day-to-day operation, maintenance, upkeep, renewals and improvements was met by income but that has not been so in the last year or two. We would all like to see a situation where day-to-day expenditure would be met by revenue derived from the installation of many more telephones. As an enabling Bill we realise this does not give the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs authority to spend £350 million just like that; he has to go to the Minister for Finance for approval.
The raising of this £350 million will constitute another increase in our borrowing. I think the Minister said it would be repaid over 25 years but I should like him to give us a little more information as to the rate of interest whether fixed or market rate. In the case of this particular borrowing I think it is justified in view of what I said about the revenue that accrues on the installation of more telephones. It is justified in providing a public service for the whole country. For many years the Department has been rightly criticised for lack of progress, for faulty telephones and lack of them. It must be obvious to many people, especially those who have been a long time in the Dáil, that not much interest was taken in our telephone service. We did not give it high priority. I may be wrong but I think that the first real shot in the arm that this branch of the service got was in the 1973 Act which provided for the expenditure of £175 million between 1973 and 1977. It had been the Cinderella section of Government Departments. I suppose it was not realised then how important the telephone service was not only to industry and commerce, tourism and hotel business but to the country generally whether for social or other use.
The £175 million appeared to be a big sum in 1973. We are asked now, as we were in 1977 to approve of the expenditure of £350 million — I suppose that would be the correct amount having regard to inflation. Possibly it is a little more than what was approved in 1973. I note that it is intended to raise £100 million from private sources. Perhaps the Minister could give us a little more detail on that because there was little elaboration of it in the speech of the Minister, Deputy Killilea.
We could make the usual justifiable criticisms and it is true that, as Deputy O'Donnell said, our telephone system is the worst in Europe. Telephone density in Ireland in 1977 was 15 per 100 of the population. We are promised now as we were in 1977 that that would be raised to 28 per 100 by 1984. I presume that is still the objective and perhaps the Minister would indicate whether in view of all the changes that are to take place that result will be achieved. We shall still have the lowest telephone density in Europe. It will take time and quite a lot of money I presume to catch up. We are second to France which in 1977 had a telephone density of 27 per 100.
We are in a telephone age as demonstrated by figures given by the Minister. Between 1969 and 1971 there were 25,000 applications per year; from 1974 to 1976, 37,000 per annum, and from 1978 to 1980, 57,000 per annum. Whether that increase was matched by installation of phones in the last two or three years I do not know but the point is that there is an ever-increasing number of applications.
The former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, the present Ceann Comhairle, predicted that in 1984 there would be 800,000 telephones in the country but we are still at the bottom of the league in Europe, still at 23 telephones per 100 of the population. It must be recognised that we are in a telephone age and that without sufficient telephones we experience great difficulties. They are important to industry, commerce, tourism and hospitals. They are also important for social use. We must appreciate the frustration and anger felt by almost all subscribers, whether they are natives, industrialists or visitors, who experience difficulty with our telephone system. We still have delays and there has been very little improvement in the system. On many occasions one cannot get through. It is very unsatisfactory trying to ring out from Leinster House or to get a call here. The Minister should concentrate on improving the service. Recently I was informed by one of the Minister's employees — needless to say I will not disclose his name — that in Athlone, where there are 25 lines, only two of them are working. That is a ridiculous situation.
Not in Athlone.
That was my information and it is quite possible that the employee has as much knowledge about the telephone system as the Minister has. There are many lines to Belfast but only a limited number in operation.
When the Ceann Comhairle was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs the House voted £350 million for a five-year programme and we were told that the annual connection rate would be increased from 45,000 to 85,000. If that has not been achieved absolutely I believe it is near achievement. The then Minister also said that it was intended to raise to 96 per cent the number of automatic phones, which stood at 87 per cent in 1977. I do not know what the figure is now, but I am sure it is over 90 per cent. While that is not entirely satisfactory, it shows that some progress has been made. In 1977 we were told that part of the £350 million was to acquire sites, place contracts and procure equipment and I should like the Minister to give us some details of how that work has proceeded.
We seem to be in the dark as far as the new telecommunications board is concerned. As Deputy O'Donnell pointed out, we were promised a White Paper, but that has not been issued. We are all concerned as to the type of board it will be. The employees in the telecommunications area of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs are also very concerned. We were told, when it was suggested that the two boards be established, that there would be consultation with the trade unions involved. I do not know whether the consultations have taken place, but if the board is to be established at all it is vital that the interests of the employees are kept foremost in the minds of those who sit on the telecommunications board. One matter that concerns employees is their position vis-á-vis other Departments. At present an employee of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs can get a transfer to another Department, and I should like to know if this will obtain. If nothing is done to maintain that situation those employees would be ranked the same as those in CIE, Aer Lingus and the other semi-State bodies. Employees of the Department have had the right to transfer to other Departments for many years and that aspect should be taken into consideration.
On the last occasion we debated a similar measure I raised the matter of telephone kiosks. The Minister of State at the Department of Posts and Telegraphs repeated what was said in 1977, and before it, that for a kiosk to be established in certain areas there must be evidence that it would pay for itself or that the local authority would guarantee against loss. That is grossly unfair. It must be obvious to the Minister, and to whoever is in charge of the telecommunications board, that in a housing estate of up to 700 houses a public telephone kiosk is an absolute essential. Very few people living in those estates have private phones and if they want to use a phone in an emergency they must travel a long distance. I can understand the Minister saying it would be impossible, or daft, to have kiosks dotted all over the country in areas where they would not in any way pay their pay, but it must be abundantly clear that a kiosk is a vital necessity in housing estates.
I should like the Minister to comment on the laying of telephone cables. Where a housing estate is in the course of construction telephone cables should be laid on in conjunction with other infrastructure such as water, roads and electricity. Is there any sort of liaison or consultation between the gas companies, the ESB and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in an effort to have a joint operation in providing those services? Damage to public kiosks continues apace and I do not know what the Minister and the Garda can do about this. It is absolute vandalism and it is still a big problem. The Ceann Comhairle, when Minister, told us in 1977 that the cost of such damage to the Department was very big. It is possible that the only thing we can do is to erect kiosks that could not be broken except with the use of a sledge hammer.
I should now like to raise a matter which may not please the Minister, and it relates to the increase in the number employed in the Department. With such a huge expenditure there must have been an increase in the number of men working on such jobs as laying cables. How many men were recruited since 1977? How many will be recruited? Above all, what is the method of recruitment? I complained that recruitment to the Department in the capacity I mentioned was dependent on one's membership of the Fianna Fáil Party. The Minister may grin when I say that, but I should like to know if such people are recommended by Manpower or are recruited through the local employment exchange. I am aware that in various parts of the country if one is a member of the Fianna Fáil Party one is almost assured of a job.
I see very few of my own supporters getting jobs, but I would discount that if the Minister could assure me that these workers are employed through Manpower or the employment exchange. This would dispel the rumours or wrong information. At least we should know the method of employment. There used to be a system where I worked many years ago where the Minister for Social Welfare could make a nomination of a special person who had to be registered at the employment exchange, but such people were the Minister's nominees. I would like to be assured that there is a fair method of recruitment through some agency like the Department of Social Welfare or Manpower.
My contribution to this debate will be very brief. I will start on a note similar to that on which Deputy Corish finished regarding the purchase of telephone exchanges by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. I raised two questions in this House in the past couple of weeks, one concerning the purchase of an area of ground for a telephone exchange at Athenry, County Galway, the second concerning the purchase of ground for a telephone exchange at Carna, County Galway. Dealing with the Athenry case, I asked the Minister if he could give me details of the area of ground purchased and the price, and if the Department of Posts and Telegraphs had any dealings or any communication regarding the purchase of any other site in the area with any other individual.
I am the Deputy representing the area and it has come to my knowledge that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs had the contract for the purchase of the site in Athenry, County Galway, for quite a nominal sum from a certain individual whose name I will not bother to mention in this House. If some small technical difficulty could have been ironed out with proper communications between the Department and a certain individual, the site could have been purchased for something in the region of £5,000. With the advent of a new Minister of State to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy Killilea, it would appear that another site was purchased. They forgot about the first site that they were supposed to buy at £5,000, and for a similar area of ground they paid something in the region of £60,000. I know that that is only a rumour. But as a Deputy who represented that area for many years, and even if I never represented it for a day, I am entitled to know what the Department of Posts and Telegraphs paid for that site. I failed to get an answer to a parliamentary question in the Dáil and now I am asking the Minister for an answer. I ask the Minister if any contract was made or signed with another individual for the purchase of a similar area of ground at the cost of £5,000. I will say no more about it except that I want to know the answer. The life of this Dáil may not be too long, but be it long or short I will keep at it until I embarrass the Minister or his Minister of State into giving me that answer regarding Athenry. As far as I and the people of that area are concerned, and many others who do not even know it, it seems that there has been a misappropriation of approximately £50,000 regarding the purchase of a site for a telephone exchange at Athenry, County Galway.
That is a terrible allegation to make for cheap publicity.
Let the Minister follow it up and, if I am wrong, I will say it outside this House.
That is where the Deputy should say it.
This is the place to say it and I tried to raise it by parliamentary question here.
The Deputy is taking the easy way out.
Indeed, I am not like the Minister, trying to take the easy way out all the time. Regarding the purchase of a telephone exchange at Carna, County Galway, from a document I have seen it would appear that there was an official contract between the Department and a certain individual for the purchase of a site, quite a small one, for £2,500. To be fair, I am not altogether sure of these facts, but I am saying it and it is up to the Minister to give the answers because the buck eventually rests with him. It has come to my notice recently that that was turned down. I do not know the reason, because there was a good contract there. Another site was purchased — and I will not mention the name of the individual although, due to the protection given to me in this House, I could do so and no one could do anything about it — for double that amount.
Without saying any more about the sites purchased for the erection of exchanges or whatever type of centres the Department want or need, they are getting the necessary information now and they are getting the whole lot of it. I charge that this Department have misappropriated funds in that direction. I will mention the two of them again, one at Athenry, a big scandal, one at Carna, only a little scandal because only £2,500 was involved. I want this investigated and when the Minister is replying here I want the answer from him.
It is no wonder that the Department are looking for an extra £350 million if they spend money ab lib when there is no need to spend it at the rate they are spending it for the purchase of these sites. Possibly I have used the phrase that is often used in this House, “the tip of the iceberg”. The things that I have talked about may be a small tip in relation to £350 million. I want direct answers from the Minister and I will follow him until such time as I get them. It may be a long time before this is exposed but it will eventually be exposed and it will be on the heads of the Minister and his Minister of State, particularly the Minister of State.
I would like also on this occasion to talk about the kiosks, these little boxes we see around the country here and there. From time to time, like any other Deputy in this House and particularly one representing a rural area more than an urban area — at least I did in the past — I have made representations to the Department and the respective Ministers who have been there with a view to getting a kiosk erected here and there. One instance comes to my mind because I got a very special letter last week regarding representations I made about the telephone kiosk at a place called Anbally, Tuam. Anbally is only a very small village of ten or 12 houses, but at the time I was told by letter and by parliamentary question that the kiosk could not be erected there and certain reasons were given. Lo and behold, I got a letter last week saying that the criteria were changed and as a result of changes in the criteria it is now found possible — at some stage in the future — to erect a telephone kisok at Anbally, Tuam, County Galway. When the Minister gets up to say his few words perhaps he will tell me what changes took place in the criteria. It was not announced publicly The case I am talking about is not peculiar to Anbally; it has happened elsewhere. If there has been a change in the criteria we should all like to know what it is. There are many areas which would not qualify under the criteria used in the past which probably would qualify under the new criteria, as enunciated in a letter to me by the Minister of State.
I agree with several remarks made by Deputy Corish when he spoke about the people employed by the Department. Do they all need a certain type of membership card? It is quite obvious from the personnel in the Department that they are hand-picked. Is there a special criterion for that also?
I remember that, soon after the Minister was appointed Minister for Post and Telegraphs, he spoke about leadership, which was very necessary in the Department. On that occasion, in the RDS, he spoke about the work he would do in comparison with somebody else who was in charge previously and how that particular person could observe from a safe distance. He boasted about the number of phones he would install and about the targets he had set.
There is no point in building one million houses if one does not have enough people to go into them and there is no point in installing thousands of telephones if the telephones do not work. That is the worst problem we have at the moment in relation to the telephone system. The position is bad in Dublin, but it is much worse in the west. If one had a good loud voice, like I have, one would be as well employed standing on the highest roof and shouting as trying to use the telephone system in operation at the moment.
The Minister carried out his boast because he installed telephones, but he forgot that the people who had the service before he took up office were unable to get calls from their telephones. The service is very poor and the position is the same in relation to the new telephones which have been installed.
With regard to the repair of telephones, certain categories of people such as doctors are on a special list so that when their telephones break down they are in category one for repairs. I believe that several politicians are on the same list. I would like to see certain politicians on the list of no repairs.
Did Mark put the Deputy on it?
No. I am happy to think that as his telephone is on the same trunk circuit as mine his service is as bad as mine. That is the one consoling factor about it. That cheap remark by the Minister does not explain to the people I represent why their telephone service is so bad. The telephone system in this country is the worst in the world. I believe if one went to the most undeveloped country in the world, and if that country had a telephone system, it would have to be better than ours.
I appeal to the Minister to stop installing telephones. I appeal to him to try to get those which are already installed working. Apart from the fact that we have the worst telephone service in Europe and that the Minister of State in the Department seems to have some special reason for changing the criteria for the erection of telephone kiosks and instals telephones at an enormous rate, the cost of the telephone call has risen enormously. When one pays a high price for something one expects to get a good service. I do not mind what the Minister does in the rest of the country, but will he please stop installing telephones in County Galway and will he get those which are already connected working?
Will the Minister explain the difference in the purchase price of the site for the telephone exchange at Athenry, County Galway, from £5,000 to £60,000? Perhaps those from whom it is being bought have been haggling about the price, but I should like to know the facts. I want the facts also about the purchase of the site for the telephone exchange at Carna, County Galway.
Before Deputy Donnellan came into the House we had a very constructive debate but he seemed to adopt the role of making it a very destructive debate. I have no intention whatsoever of stopping the installation of telephones. If Deputy Donnellan had any interest in the debate he would have looked at the very comprehensive details in the speech of the Minister of State about every aspect of the telephone service and studied it. He did not bother his head to do that and he comes into the House making totally uninformed comments in relation to the quality of the telephone service and the installation of telephones. Nobody would accept as being anywhere near the factual position his statement that we have the worst telephone system in the world.
I will give the Deputy the worst places in the world. I will give him the worst places in Europe, if he wants to know them. If the Deputy wants to go to parts of Spain, parts of Scotland or parts of Wales, he will see a worse telephone system than we have here. But it is an Irish trait to continually knock our own, so we are told we are the worst. That is typical of what I hear from people like Deputy Donnellan and others, who constantly reject any efforts made here to raise our standards to EEC levels or beyond them. If the Deputy wants to go to the west coast of America he will find that in California there are ten party lines, which does not exist in Tuam or anywhere else in County Galway. It was interesting to hear Deputy Donnellan, by and large, confine his remarks to the area in which he is doing battle with a colleague of mine, the Minister of State, in relation to the quality of the service.
The Deputy would know, if he bothered to read the document presented by the Minister of State, that within the next month a new exchange will be opened in Tuam and that a new radio link will be installed as well. He would also know that a new digital exchange is being installed in Galway and that improvements are on the way. I believe he was trying to get his voice into practice for what he expects will be a different kind of contest in the very near future. He is trying to raise all sorts of scares about how Posts and Telegraphs buy sites. We go to locals and auctioneers like everybody else. What is important is that for every site or building we purchase the Valuation Office give a valuation and that is the criterion used.
If Deputy Donnellan had done me the courtesy of advising me before this debate that he wanted particulars about a particular site, I would have endeavoured to get that information for him. He knew I would not have the information at my fingertips; but, as he said, the buck stops with me, and I accept that. I will get the information and communicate with him.
That is fair enough, but it is only fair to say that I raised these matters by way of parliamentary question and the Minister failed to answer them.
Surely the Deputy did not expect me to give information about an individual site? In this programme we are buying over 500 sites and erecting more than 530 buildings, yet the Deputy comes in here this evening asking about two individual cases, Carna and Athenry. I will give the Deputy a full report ——
I put down specific parliamentary questions about each site and failed to get a satisfactory answer.
The Deputy should have taken the matter up when I was dealing with his parliamentary question.
We cannot have a debate across the House.
(Interruptions.)
If the Deputy reads the very extensive document dealing with telecommunications he will see our approach to the development of telecommunications. We are working to a programme which, on the one hand, is developing the quality of service and, on the other, is accelerating installation.
There was one district where we fell short of our target, and deliberately so, and that was Portlaoise, because there was not the capacity to meet the target. I repeat 62,584 telephones were installed and working, 7,000 additional phones were installed for people who moved premises and 15,000 extensions were added to our telecommunications service. When a Deputy comes here to talk about facts he should get them right because I know them off by heart. The review group which looked into the Department of Posts and Telegraphs produced a target for ——
The Minister is the only one who believes that.
It is hard for the Deputy to have to listen to the truth. The review group produced a fault factor of one telephone per day for every instrument, that is 1,500 faults per day. We are below 1,000 and that is below the target set as the acceptable level. These are the facts. Deputies should not come in here with loose chat because it will not work. We are working on a planned development programme to accelerate the installation of telephones and to raise the quality of service to EEC standards by 1984. We are on target and we intend to make it.
Deputies asked how people were employed by the Department and how many employees we had. There are approximately 17,000 employees. They are recruited as follows: trainee installers are interviewed by the engineering section of my Department, passed through the interview board, sent for medical examination and, if they pass the medical test and the interview board, they are recruited. There is and has been no change from that situation, and nobody should try to allege otherwise. Trainee technicians are recruited by the Civil Service Commissioners, and nobody here would say that anybody could interfere in that area. Temporary labourers are recruited by Manpower and recommended for employment. That is the truth of the situation.
They are recruited by Manpower exclusively?
Manpower recruit labourers, the Civil Service Commissioners recruit trainee technicians and an interview board of the engineering section of the Department recruit trainee installers.
I am glad Deputies recognise this is a very serious problem, that an immense programme has to be carried out and that this Bill is specifically designed to provide the money needed. The question of the £350 million was raised by Deputy Corish. Up to £270 million of that money had been spent by the end of December. The money provided in this Bill is to enable the Department to continue with this work until the two semi-State boards and An Bord Telecom take over, which I expect will be next year.
The White Paper is in print at the moment and will issue early next week. It is a major operation because a significant number of submissions were made on the basis of the Green Paper which issued last year. A considerable amount of consultation took place and at the end of the day 33 Government decisions were involved. Everybody will agree that no time was lost in getting it out. Consultation with unions started some time ago and will continue, because I recognise that when you attempt to take more than 50 per cent of the people out of the civil service and put them into semi-State bodies there has to be a considerable amount of consultation and a great deal of work is involved.
The heads of the Bill are well advanced and I expect to introduce legislation dealing with the splitting up of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs into two semi-State boards in the autumn. Deputies will appreciate that over 100 legislative amendments have to be made. Most people will recall that it took a very long time to pass similar legislation in the House of Commons.
The question of maximising the manufacture of the equipment, cables and so on in this country was raised. Deputies will recall that early last year we ran exhibitions to show Irish manufacturers, or would-be manufacturers, the opportunities that existed in this development programme for them to avail of products which could be added to their existing production lines or possibly to start a new industry. That has had considerable success. At present we are self-sufficient in this area to the extent of 60 per cent and our aim this year is to further improve that to 75 per cent. There will always be a certain amount of highly technical products needed but the phasing out of old technology and the introduction of new technology would not warrant the setting up of a production line either in Ireland or anywhere else. Many of these components are common to telecommunications all over the world.
Every effort is being made in this area and there will be a considerable spin-off from this development programme right through the economy. Everybody knows telecommunications are very closely related to the development of the electronics industry, which is one of the brighter spots on our industrial horizon. It is expected to expand faster than any other sector of the economy in the coming years, and the development of telecommunications side by side with it is and will be a very significant contributor to the development of the entire economy. I agree with Deputy O'Donnell that one of the greatest impediments to the full development of our economy has been a totally inadequate telecommunications service. The financial commitment needed to take on this massive programme has been made by the Government. Last year and this year £343 million will be spent on it. I was asked about the company set up. It was established on 1 April, Irish Telecommunications Investments Limited. That company will raise up to £100 million from the private sector. Many times since I became Minister various people in the private sector have put forward the idea that they should be given an opportunity to invest in it. Therefore, in future years this area will not be starved of the necessary capital to develop it. This is the way it will be done in the future.
This company will raise up to £100 million this year. They will merge with and become part of An Bord Telecom when that semi-State body take over to run the service. Telecommunications is very capital-intensive and much of the investment made in the earlier years will not bear fruit or show revenue until later. However, the whole secret of developing the industry and getting it into a revenue-earning position is to get the infrastructure right, to get the network right. It is no use coming in here to make childish statements about this thing being wrong or that thing being wrong. The whole programme has to be developed. It involves a big building programme, a big trunk-laying programme, a big line-laying programme. It involves the purchase and installation of major trunk switching exchanges. Then the question of subscriber exchanges comes into it.
At the moment there are 450 manual exchanges still left, representing 10 per cent of the total subscribers. More than 300 of these will be converted to automatic dialling in the next two years and the balance will be fully automatic before the end of 1984. One of the major developments in recent times to improve the trunk service out of Dublin has been the opening of the Adelaide Road trunk switching station. Already a number of trunk circuits have been routed into Adelaide Road and this will be finished progressively in the next couple of months. Consequently Dublin people who have found difficulty in ringing parts of the country will see a perceptible improvement by the end of June when Adelaide Road will have become fully operational with 4,600 additional circuits. In the other major trunk switching areas throughout the country — they are the key to the whole network — new exchanges will be installed this year, in Galway, Naas and other centres where there has been congestion in recent times.
That is only part of the job. We are installing 5,000 additional trunk lines. Deputy Corish asked about Athlone. He spoke about 25 trunk lines of which only two are working. There are approximately 65 or 70 trunk lines to Athlone. Some of them will always be withdrawn from service because of maintenance being carried out but there is nothing like the position there that Deputy Corish described. Naturally I would look after my own — charity begins at home. I cannot confirm Deputy Corish's question about 4 o'clock tomorrow afternoon. It is for somebody else——
How many lines are there to Athlone?
Sixty to 70. Twenty-five would not be in any way adequate to meet the number of calls through Athlone. There will always be a certain number of trunks under overhaul. Major trunk replacements are going on throughout the country and this is being supplemented by microradio links. Incidentally, we will be putting a microradio link in Tuam, Deputy Donnellan's home town, next month. This will help to relieve congestion and improve the service.
Deputy O'Donnell may not be aware that earlier this year I inaugurated a telecommunications council involving industry, our people in Posts and Telegraphs and others, to provide the interaction necessary. I have covered most of the areas referred to. I will have a look at Deputy Donnellan's allegations in relation to Galway and I will communicate with him.
The Minister spoke of very large sums being raised by the new company. Where does the Minister expect the money to come from?
Already they are processing applications to the value of £92 million. From the interest that has been expressed, to my knowledge, by Irish financial institutions, pension funds and so on, and many foreign institutions, there is more than adequate evidence that the development company will get their £100 million.
Has any money been committed with a legally binding quality by anybody so far for this programme?
The company were set up only a short time ago and it can be expected that they will be entering into legal contracts in a matter of weeks for the money needed.
Presumably these private interests will be expecting a return for their investment. Who will provide that return?
They know what they are investing in. Private interests do not invest unless they have confidence in a project.
Will it be the State who will be funding this investment? Is it part of a budget set of plans? There has not been one penny committed so far.
That is what the Deputy thinks.
Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment and passed.
This Bill is certified a Money Bill in accordance with Article 22 of the Constitution.