Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 7 Jul 1981

Vol. 329 No. 2

Business of Dáil: Motions.

I move:

That notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders the following arrangements relating to business and sittings on Tuesdays and Wednesdays shall apply forthwith:—

(1) the Dáil shall meet on Tuesdays at 2.30 p.m. and on Wednesdays at 10.30 a.m. and the interruption of business provided for in Standing Order 20 (2) shall take place on those days at 8.30 p.m. or at such hour as proceedings, if any, under Standing Order 123 shall have concluded and the Dáil shall adjourn not later than half an hour after the interruption of business;

(2) on Tuesdays and Wednesdays——

(a) notice of intention to raise a matter under Standing Order 20 (3) shall be given not later than 4 p.m.;

(b) a motion that the Dáil sit later than the time provided in paragraph (1) shall be moved not later than 6.30 p.m.;

(c) the provisions of Standing Order 30 shall apply with the substitution therein of 7 p.m. for 9 p.m.;

(d) Questions shall be taken from 2.30 p.m. to 3.30 p.m.; and

(e) Government business or Private business, as the case may be, shall be interrupted between 7 p.m. and 8.30 p.m. to take private Members' business: provided that where leave has been given to move a motion under Standing Order 30 the latter shall have priority;

(3) sittings shall be suspended from 1.30 p.m. to 2.30 p.m. on Wednesdays and business shall be interrupted accordingly; and

(4) the provisions of Standing Order 123 shall apply with the substitution therein of 8.30 p.m. for 10.15 p.m.

Is the motion agreed?

No. The motion before us deals with the hours the Dáil will sit. It is necessary that we look at this in some detail because we are starting off now on a new Dáil and what suited the Members of the last Dáil and what they found appropriate may not be so for this Dáil. I do not think we should just rubberstamp this change without asking the different Members of the House to give their views on it. If we do not accept this motion we go back to the old hours of sitting, which are those in Standing Orders. Of course Standing Orders have never been reprinted. But it is worthwhile spending a little time looking at the changes proposed to see whether in the changed circumstances of the House everybody would be satisfied with the sitting hours now proposed.

I am particularly interested in hearing the views of the Independent Members because I understand from the Independent Members that they wish to be fully taken into account in all discussions and consultations, that they would like to have their circumstances and convenience fully considered, and that these matters should not simply be left to the larger parties to decide between them. I should like the Independents to understand fully what exactly is being proposed in this motion, the hours of sitting we propose to adopt. I should like to have their views on whether or not these hours of sitting would be in accordance with their wishes.

What is now proposed is that the Dáil should meet on Tuesdays at 2.30 p.m., Wednesdays at 10.30 a.m. and Thursdays at 10.30 a.m. and that the sittings should conclude normally at 8.30 p.m. and 5.30 p.m. on Thursdays, with a sos between 1.30 p.m. and 2.30 p.m. on Wednesdays. I think most Members would agree that, by and large, these sittings have met the convenience of most Deputies and have been regarded as reasonably satisfactory. But it is true that what is suitable and convenient from the point of view of Dublin city Deputies, for instance, may not be equally convenient for Deputies who have to travel from far distant parts of our country. Therefore before we rubberstamp this change, it is worthwhile our getting the views of those Deputies who are interested in the matter and who would like to have a say as to what particular hours we should adhere to in this new Dáil.

Might I explain briefly, for the benefit of the Independents who were not Members of the House when this change was made and also for the benefit of the new Members on all sides and in response to the invitation just given by the Leader of the Opposition, why this change was made in 1975, in the first instance on an experimental basis, subsequently continued on a year to year basis, then for the remainder of the Dáil, and then throughout the duration of the 21st Dáil?

The old hours and the new hours add up to the very same number of sitting hours weekly, exactly the same amount of sitting time. The Thursday hours were unchanged. In other words, what is in Standing Orders and what we have been doing for the last six years is exactly the same so far as concerns Thursdays. If I may be allowed to put it in a nutshell, the only difference is that, whereas the House used to sit until 10.30 p.m. in the evening in Tuesdays and Wednesdays and did not sit at all on Wednesday mornings, the new arrangement for the last six years has been that the House rises two hours earlier in the evening at 8.30 p.m. and catches up with the time thus missed by sitting on Wednesday mornings as well, whereas formerly Wednesday mornings were free. We also standardised Question Time at 2.30 in the afternoon. On Wednesdays entirely out of consideration for the reporting staff — perhaps other staff benefit from it as well but particularly the reporting staff when the Seanad is sitting on a Wednesday also — we introduced a sos from 1.30 to 2.30 p.m.

That was the reason for the change. It was opposed at the time it was first made. But I think I can say — I would have said until now at any rate — that most Deputies found the new hours more convenient than the old ones. Wednesday mornings did not go to waste for Dáil purposes. It also had the advantage, which will be recognised by both sides of the House, whichever party occupies either side, that one had a better chance of having one's remarks reported and noticed under the new arrangement. Due to press time constraints anything said in this House after 8.30 p.m., or even earlier, just cannot get into the papers. It is lucky if it gets into any news bulletin, let alone the nine o'clock evening one. I would have thought these hours — and I never heard any question raised about them until now — suited most Deputies, though I recognise that there were a few that they would not have suited for reasons of their own.

I quite agree that we should look at these arrangements again and scrutinise our arrangements all the time to ascertain whether they can be improved. But I think that those new arrangements did appear more convenient to most people. Certainly when we arranged to have Private Members' Time at the end of the day it meant that on Tuesday evenings anybody not engaged on Private Members' Time could get away at seven o'clock, go to his constituency, a function, or simply rest himself as the humour took him. Those were the advantages of the system we introduced in 1975. I personally think it would be a pity to abandon them but I accept that there may be other points of view.

In the absence of any counter proposition, I move that the motion be put.

Has the Taoiseach any information from the Independent Deputies as to whether these hours suit them?

I was waiting to see if any of them wish to comment or make any suggestion in the matter. I take silence as consent in the matter. If they have any views or suggestions I will certainly be glad to hear them.

Is Motion No. 4 agreed?

Question put and agreed to.

I move:

That, in respect of any Bill of the present session initiated by a member of the Government having as its main object the imposition of a charge upon the people, the motion approving of the charge may, notwithstanding Standing Order 118 of the Standing Orders of Dáil Éireann relative to Public Business, be taken at any time prior to the Committee Stage of the Bill.

Could we have an explanation?

It affects Standing Order No. 118, a conflict between the first and second sections. This now brings the two into line. This was done in the last Dáil.

I do not follow that. It seems to me that this short circuits financial business in some way. I would like an explanation from the Government as to what exactly they are proposing here. Is it envisaged that financial business, legislation, which imposes a charge can be taken without leave to introduce in the House?

At present, before Committee Stage a motion is introduced approving the charge despite the fact that subsection (1) of the Standing Order prohibits the circulation of a Bill until a motion approving the charge has been approved. This was done in the last Dáil by agreement.

Am I to take it that the purpose of this is to enable legislation to be circulated before the Financial Resolution is moved? Is that the purpose of it?

The Deputy can take that from it. It was done to expedite business in the Dáil. It was agreed on a proposition from the Deputy's side of the House.

Can anybody give us an explanation as to what exactly is involved?

An explanation has been given.

I am afraid the explanation does not make sense to me.

The proposal was originally from the Deputy's side of the House. If it does not make sense to him now I do not know how it made sense to him then.

With respect, it is the Government who are putting this proposal before us. As I read it, it enables something to be done during the recess in regard to financial business. It seems to me that in some way financial business will be short-circuited and something can be done during the recess which Standing Orders prohibit. Is that so? If so, what exactly is it?

I do not think that is so.

It is not a case of thinking, we want to deal with facts.

The proposition was proposed by the Deputy's party in 1977 and was agreed. The House has worked according to that since 1977. There is a conflict between subsection (1) and sub-section (2) and this is only to bring them into line. The Deputy should read sub-section (1) and subsection (2) of the Standing Order.

It would appear that the Government do not know why they are proposing this?

Perhaps we will leave it over until we get an explanation.

If the Deputy was half as interested when he was over here he might still be over here.

(Interruptions.)

I would be very grateful if the Minister of State would keep his sour grapes over what he did not get——

(Interruptions.)

In the absence of a full explanation about what is technically involved here I am afraid we have no option but to oppose this.

We have given an explanation.

The Minister of State has not. He has not told us why this is needed.

The Minister of State has said why it was done before.

He has not told us why it is being done now. Why is it being done?

The Deputy should not ask awkward questions like that.

I want to assure the Government and the Ceann Comhairle that we have no wish to be obstructive in this but it is important that we know exactly what we are doing in the House. The Minister of State on a couple of occasions used the phrase `I think'. I do not accept that we should do our business here on the basis of what the Minister of State thinks. We are concerned about financial business and that charges on the general public will not be made during the summer recess without our having full access to them. Can I have that assurance or does this involve some charges being made on the general public without our having a full opportunity of debating them and considering them?

May I assist Deputy Haughey and Deputy Colley in this regard? It was during the course of Deputy Colley's term of office as Tánaiste that this proposition arose. It arose in relation to Bills where there were protracted debates on Committee Stage and money was frequently very short and was urgently required time and again by successive Governments in that regard. It was from the Fianna Fáil Party that the proposition emanated and was unanimously agreed by the then Whips, as were the changes of hours at that time. We were all involved in it. I have been Whip in my party since 1973. The purport of the motion is self-evident, is well-known to Deputy Haughey and was exercised on many occasions in the House. If the Deputy is now trying to suggest that there is something particularly unique about it then I suggest it must have allowed the previous Government to obtain moneys time and time again even when people did not know what their parliamentary subjects were about.

I am very distressed that the wealth of experience of the Minister of State was not better recognised in the recent turn-up. The aspect of the financial business, to which the Minister of State refers, is not involved here at all. The procedure of the Departments running out of money is catered for otherwise. Any Department of State can in any year spend a certain proportion of their departmental Estimate related to their previous year's departmental Estimate. It is only when it exceeds that that some special arrangements have to be made. We are here talking about Bills.

I am quite well aware of that.

The motion before us states:

That, in respect of any Bill of the present session initiated by a member of the Government having as its main object the imposition of a charge upon the people, the motion approving of the charge may, notwithstanding Standing Order 118 of the Standing Orders of Dáil Éireann relative to Public Business, be taken at any time prior to the Committee Stage of the Bill.

It seems to me that that involves circulating Bills imposing a financial charge on the people. This side of the House are very distrusting of the Government at this stage because we hear all sorts of rumours of the imposition of an extra 1½ per cent health charge, an additional 3.75 per cent on all incomes over £8,500 and a 2½ per cent on all incomes for some employment fund purposes. With all these indications, rumours and disclosures in the air we are naturally suspicious of what may happen in regard to the imposition of charges, particularly charges being imposed during the summer recess when the House is not in session and in a position to scrutinise and, if possible, reject them. I want to know from the Government what precisely is the reason for the motion before us at the moment.

It is, first of all, needed to provide for the circulation of such Bills. Secondly, the motion for approval will still have to be approved before taking the Committee Stage. Thirdly, it is in line with several changes which enable Government Bills to be presented without seeking leave to introduce them.

Perhaps the Minister for Finance could enlighten us on what exactly is involved.

(Interruptions.)

(Cavan-Monaghan): On a point of order, may I ask if we are in Committee or if we are discussing a motion? If we are discussing a motion how many times may a Deputy speak on the motion? The Leader of the Opposition seems to have spoken on a number of occasions.

(Interruptions.)

I am not speaking on this motion; I am asking questions. I am not in a position to elucidate from anybody on the other side of the House what precisely the implications of our passing this motion are. I do not think this side of the House should be asked to pass a motion dealing with financial business until we know its full implications.

Fianna Fáil proposed this in 1977. It was agreed and it was found to be in order. The proposed motion only allows the circulation of the particular Bill. A Bill has to be debated in the House.

Is the Minister of State now saying that it is suggested here that this motion will enable the Government to circulate Bills imposing a charge during the recess? Is that what the Minister of State is saying?

It can be done during the recess but it has to come before the House and has to be discussed in the House afterwards.

Therefore, the position is that we have to pass this motion so that during the summer recess the Government will be able to introduce legislation imposing charges on the general public.

Only to circulate a Bill—that is all.

I cannot understand why the Government need a motion to do that.

The Opposition now, the Government in 1977, had to introduce the same motion. That died with the end of the last Dáil and it must be reintroduced.

We had better look at the relevant Standing Orders, 118(1). It states:

A Bill which has as its main object the imposition of a charge upon the people shall not be initiated unless a motion approving of the charge has been passed by the Dáil. No such motion as aforesaid nor any amendment thereto proposing to increase the amount stated in any such motion, may be made by any member, save a member of the Government.

Is that the Standing Order the Deputy is concerned with?

Yes, Standing Order No. 118. I repeat that charges cannot be imposed until the proposed charges are approved of by the Dáil.

What the motion proposes is that the Government, despite Standing Order 118 (1) may circulate Bills during the summer recess imposing charges on the general public. Is it the Government's intention to circulate Bills imposing all sorts of charges on the general public?

Charges cannot be imposed until the House meets.

The motion proposes that members of the Government, despite that Standing Order, may be able to circulate Bills during the summer recess which will impose charges on the general public? I am asking the Government is it their intention during the summer recess to circulate a number of Bills which will impose such charges on the general public?

The Cabinet will have to meet to decide that. During the past four years Bills have been circulated but they had to be held until Parliament approved of them. I cannot anticipate what the Government intend to do between now and the resumption of Parliament.

We are being asked to consider a motion which has a specific purpose, to cancel a Standing Order so that members of the Government during the summer recess, when we are all on beaches or in the mountains——

Or on the island.

——will be able to circulate Bills which will impose charges on the general public. Before we give a decision on this motion to enable members of the Government to do that we want to know what is involved. Is it the intention of the Government to circulate a number of these measures imposing charges on the general public? Can we be told if they are going to circulate only one such measure or have the Government a host of new taxes in mind? It is a very reasonable request.

This was proposed by Fianna Fáil in 1977 and it was agreed to by the Opposition. It is the same procedure under which the Dáil worked during the past four years. Is the Leader of the Opposition now claiming that the procedure he asked us to agree to at that time is wrong?

Is it the Government's intention to circulate Bills——

(Cavan-Monaghan): Wait and see.

The Opposition will have to wait and see.

Mr. Crowley

The parrot is off.

We are dealing with financial matters, the most important business the House could be dealing with. We are being asked to give the Government carte blanche to introduce all sorts of legislation during the summer recess imposing charges on the general public. Is it unreasonable for us to ask that the Government give us some idea whether they will introduce a whole host of Bills imposing new taxes, or will there be only one new tax, or what exactly have they in mind when seeking this power?

New taxes cannot be imposed without approval of the Dáil. We are doing this more to help the Opposition than anything else, so that the Opposition will have the texts of Bills that will be introduced after the recess. They complained earlier they had not been given advance notice. That was wrong because we gave them notice in writing last Friday. The Opposition stated deliberately they had not got notice in writing. The Whip over there cannot deny that. This motion is to help the Opposition because under this procedure they will get advance notice. As I have said, a charge cannot be made until it is discussed in the House.

The Leader of the Opposition is enjoying his little game, and he is entitled to it in front of his accumulated personnel.

We have no rooms to go to. We are only itinerants over here.

I am well aware that charges may not be imposed without Dáil approval. I want to know is it the intention to circulate one, two, three or four such Bills imposing charges? Why are the Government seeking power to do it during the summer recess? We are naturally suspicious. All these documents have proposals for taxation and we want to know if these will be foisted on an unsuspecting public during the summer recess.

This is a power which the previous Government found necessary and desirable to conduct the orderly business of the House.

Could we not adjourn so that the Government could be properly advised?

They could go back again to the Gaiety.

Question put and declared carried.

I move:

That paragraph (1) of Standing Order 35 of the Standing Orders relative to Public Business shall not be implemented where the Ceann Comhairle is of opinion that its application in relation to a Question would prejudice the answering of another Question put down earlier.

I want to avail of this opportunity to address myself to Members of the House of long standing but particularly to newly elected Members. The motion relates to the subject of parliamentary questions and I draw the attention of the House to the fact that the parliamentary question is the greatest democratic weapon which individual Members possess and it is the duty of every Member to safeguard and cherish this right if we are anxious to see a democratic Parliament function freely and without hindrance. The opportunity arises particularly on the occasion of a new Dáil and new Government for every Member of the House to consider his rights as an elected representative to table parliamentary questions. The parliamentary question is the greatest democratic weapon possessed by any member. Members new or old should cherish that right and hold on to it no matter what the difficulties or obstacles may be because it is a right they receive from the electorate to take to task and question any Minister on any item of national, international or local importance. The function of a Deputy depends on his freedom in a democratic parliament to ask questions in relation to his constituents, his country and its international standing. Unless the parliamentary question can be tabled without hindrance, without the influence of Ministers of any Government and without the undue interference of the Ceann Comhairle or his staff, Parliament is not free and democracy becomes a farce.

I appeal to every member of Fine Gael and Labour, to each of the Independents and to every Member of Fianna Fáil to ensure that the right to ask parliamentary questions is never tampered with. Unless Parliament can work freely the whole process becomes completely paralysed.

This morning Deputy Byrne raised a question. I shall not question the right of the Ceann Comhairle to adjudicate on whether that question was right or wrong. There was a conflict of opinion. Deputy Byrne maintained he was within his rights to put down a question in regard to the Ballymun flats. The Chair ruled otherwise. I want to know — and here I shall expect to hear in detail from the Ceann Comhairle — what is the machinery behind the Chair for disallowing parliamentary questions. We can put this question to the Chair today but we cannot put it again until this matter arises on the occasion of the election of the next Dáil. The free working of Parliament depends on the rights of Members and Parliament can only function as freely as we allow it to function. If Parliament dies a slow death and if democracy is blotted out of Irish society only the Members occupying their seats here today have responsibility.

The rules are in the Standing Orders. The Deputy has been given a lot of latitude in discussing the matter and has gone outside the bounds of order. It is a very limited motion.

It is a very important question.

It is a very limited motion.

I hope the Chair will take into consideration my experience which is longer than that of any other Member of the House and I have seen the manner in which the parliamentary question is frustrated. I have seen how it has been side-stepped by occupants of the Chair in the past and by those occupying Ministerial posts. Deputies have a right in regard to the parliamentary question and I cannot see how I am out of order in speaking on this Item No. 6—I am aware of standing order No. 35 which I have read as often as I have read the headlines of the morning papers —which clearly states that paragraph (1) of Standing Order 35 of the Standing Orders relative to Public Business shall not be implemented where the Ceann Comhairle is of opinion—this is the important part of it—that its application would prejudice the answering of another question put down earlier.

The House has an opportunity now of safeguarding the Parliamentary Question and of reinforcing it and of stressing the importance of the right of any Deputy to question any Minister across the floor of the House and require him to answer for the acts or omissions of any civil servant in his Department or the conduct or misconduct of any Minister. If the parliamentary question is in any way interfered with or is likely to be, or if there is a misapplication of a misdirected opinion to the Ceann Comhairle, it can mean a miscarriage of justice in Parliament. If Deputies were muzzled or prevented from asking questions or if the Ceann Comhairle's office were such as would prevent a question from being asked, freedom and democracy as we know them would not exist and we would expedite a state of anarchy in which Parliament would not and could not function. A Parliament without teeth is useless and the teeth in Parliament are the rights of Deputies to ask what questions they like when and how they like provided it is within the rules of order.

In the past, parliamentary questions have been disallowed and in future such questions are likely to be disallowed and this is where I want Members to be alert because there is machinery available to prevent the ordinary Deputy from exercising his rights as a Member of a free, democratic Parliament.

The purpose of this motion is to prevent a Deputy taking an advantage over a fellow Deputy to put down an oral question. We should confine the debate to that but I should like to assure the Deputy and every Member of the House that while I am in the Chair there will be no attempt to muzzle any Deputy who wishes to ask a parliamentary question. Here, however, Deputy Flanagan is discussing another subject. I think every Member will agree this motion is very important in the interest of every Member of the House.

I do not desire to embarrass the newly elected Ceann Comhairle; rather do I extend to him my congratulations and good wishes on his election but I am pleased and proud to hear that he will exercise his own judgment as a parliamentarian in relation to questions which are placed before him by his officials. If the Ceann Comhairle gives the House that undertaking, if he gives an undertaking that he will not, and cannot, be influenced by anybody in his office or by anybody holding ministerial office, either junior or senior, I will accept it. That undertaking should be given in the interests of the free democratic running of this Parliament. The Ceann Comhairle had evidence when sitting on these benches that parliamentary democracy is dying a slow death in Ireland because of silence or the prevention of free speech. It is because of that that tens of thousands of people have taken to the streets, farmers and taxpayers. We should remember that the day people take to the streets is a day of anarchy. The place to do the talking is in this House, the supreme authority in the Republic of Ireland. This is where the talking must be done and that is why I want the Ceann Comhairle to guarantee the rights and privileges of the elected Members, young and old. I want the Ceann Comhairle to be the custodian of the rights of all Members in seeing that their privilege of tabling parliamentry questions and asking supplementaries does not prevent them exercising the right, the privilege, the trust and the confidence placed in them by their constituents.

I accept what the Chair has most generously stated, that the Chair will not yield to any influence. Let this be the first new real ray of hope that democracy in Ireland will live on and that democracy in the Parliament will prevail. I express that hope because I have seen grave injustices and grave steps taken to hinder and discourage the right which Deputies have to exercise their parliamentary functions. If the Chair agrees to give that undertaking I will accept it gladly. However, there is nothing like giving notice to all and sundry, to both sides of the House, that we have equal rights and none of us is better or more superior than others. We all want to cherish our right to ask questions when, how and where we like, provided they conform to the rules of procedure.

Certainly, that assurance will be given within the limits of the Standing Orders of the House.

Question put and agreed to.
Top
Share