Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Jul 1981

Vol. 329 No. 3

Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Bill, 1981: Second Stage.

Minister of State at the Department of Energy (Mr. E. Collins)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Braitheann tionsclaíocht agus eacnamaíocht na tíre go mór ar chumas agus éifeacht Bhord Soláthar an Leictreach-ais. Ó bhunú an bhoird sin nuair a cuireadh tús le Scéim na Sionainne go luath tar éis bhunú an Stáit féin, is mór mar a chuir BSL le dul chun cinn na tíre.

Mura mbeadh an tslí ina mbíonn an bord ullamh chun freastal ar riachtanaisí fuinnimh a bhíonn ag dul i méid i gcónaí ní thiocfadh an borradh agus an fás sin, san eacnamaíocht, ar a bhfuilimíd ag braith chun fostaíocht a sholáthar dár ndaoine óga. Is chun deimhin a dhéanamh de go mbeidh sé ar chumas an bhoird leanúint leis an dea obair sin atá an Bille seo á chur ós comhair na Dála agam inniu.

The purpose of the Bill is to raise from £1,200 million to £1,400 million the limit on total expenditure by the ESB for capital purposes. Deputies will be aware that the primary function of the ESB under the Electricity Supply Acts is to ensure the adequate supply and distribution of electricity throughout the State. The board have a number of other subsidiary functions but we are concerned here with the board's main responsibility, to ensure that electricity will not be in short supply at any time.

The history of electricity generation since the establishment of the ESB more than 50 years ago has shown that although there were periods when demand levelled off, overall there has been a steady increase in electricity consumption over the years. This is illustrated as follows. In 1930 the ESB had 50,000 customers and sold 43 million units of electricity. In the year ended March 1980 the ESB had one million customers and sold 8,560 million units of electricity. This means that a 20-fold increase in customers created sales almost 200 times greater.

To meet this demand there has been an essential and continuing capital investment in electricity generating plant and networks. Today generating capacity stands at 3090 MW. compared with something in the region of 85 MW when the ESB were in their infancy. This reflects our increasing reliance on electricity in industry, commerce and the home and demonstrates its essential function in the economic and social expansion of the country. Electricity now accounts for about 31 per cent of our energy requirements.

It is in the nature of things that demand for electricity can be expected to increase, but planning to meet that demand is now more complex that ever. The long lead time of eight years or more required for the construction of base load plant means that we are now building to meet expected electricity demand at the end of the decade.

Planning over such a long period requires flexibility. This is why flexibility is an integral part of the plant programme currently approved in respect of the ESB. The plant programme envisages an additional capacity of 1,435 MW, towards the end of the decade. About 32 per cent of this is in the form of combustion turbines. These are intended to meet peak demand. Because of the relatively short lead time of about three years their construction can be put back in tandem with any fall-off in electricity demand, for whatever reason. This is the flexible element of the plant programme.

Of course increased investment in plant entails expansion and improvement of transmission and distribution networks. A significant proportion of the ESB's capital investment goes into such works.

But there is another direction which our energy strategy must take. We must decrease as much as possible our dependence on oil. At present, generating capacity is about 54 per cent oil-fired. In the knowledge that oil is rapidly becoming scarce it is only prudent that we should not keep all our energy eggs in that particular basket. This is why base load plant recently constructed and currently under construction is intended to be fired by fuels other than oil.

A significant diversification away from oil will have been achieved when the 900MW coal-fired station at Moneypoint has been commissioned between 1985 and 1988. Construction of an additional 80MW of peat-fired plant and the prospect of over 45MW of plant burning low grade native coal will ensure maximum use of native resources and make a further contribution to the programme of diversification. Thus, towards the end of the eighties we will have reduced to just over 40 per cent the amount of our generating capacity which is dependent on oil.

While the plant programme which I have outlined is the mainstay of our strategy in relation to diversification for electricity generation we would be lacking in responsibility if we did not assess the prospects of alternative energy sources in the face of finite and shrinking conventional resources. The ESB are playing their role in this regard. A practical example of this is the board's current windpower programme. Four medium sized wind turbines will be sited in four different locations to gain first-hand knowledge of the economics, efficiency, reliability and availability of wind energy in the Irish environment. The programme will cost an estimated £630,000.

An alternative source being examined is biomass. This project is EEC supported and is being carried out in conjunction with Bord na Móna and the Forestry and Wildlife Service. The ESB in fact have been successfully using wood waste and thinnings combined with slack in their smaller stations. In the field of wave energy, the board participate in tests being carried out in Japan and Britain and monitor developments world wide. A number of rivers have been surveyed for small hydro potential and work on a project for the Ballisodare river is continuing.

In the past few years the ESB have played an important role in energy conservation in the domestic and industrial sectors. Since 1974 the ESB's advisory service for industry has been helping industry to achieve economies in energy usage through conservation and efficient usage.

In the domestic sector, the board have launched publicity campaigns with various conservation themes, including the issue of leaflets and booklets on the efficient use of energy. It is interesting to note that many of the applicants for grants under my Department's attic insulation scheme are the result of promotional activity by the board.

Since the early seventies the ESB have been interested in the prospects of district heating and a project demonstrating the commercial use of residual heat derived from electricity generation is now well advanced at the Lanesboro power station. This extracted heat is sold to tomato growers to heat specially constructed glasshouses adjacent to the station. District heating studies are being undertaken in the Dublin inner city areas and the Mahon Peninsula near Cork city. The ESB have been commissioned by Dublin Corporation to study the possibility of incinerating refuse to fuel the Ballymun district heating system. This system at present uses oil.

There is also the prospect that natural gas will be piped to Dublin and other centres of high population density within the next couple of years. All these developments taken together should contribute towards bringing down the level of peak demand for electricity. This, in turn, should contribute to a reduction in capital investment on new plant in the long term.

It is a matter of considerable regret that the electricity interconnector with the North has been out of action since 1975. The interconnector proved its value when it was in operation in the early seventies. If it had remained undamaged it would have enhanced our security of electricity supply, provided considerable savings in fuel consumption, created the prospect of significant savings in capital investment in plant and provided profitable opportunities for trading of electricity. I am sure it is the will of this House and of the people as a whole that those responsible should realise the immeasurable damage to the economy their action has caused. The Government are determined to pursue their efforts to achieve maximum security of supply and efficiency of operation which interconnection with other electricity grids can provide.

Deputies will be aware of the capital and labour intensive nature of the electricity supply industry. For example the capital budget of the ESB in 1981 is expected to be about £209 million. The bulk of this is for construction of plant but some £70 million will be spent on improvement of networks. The number of new jobs arising out of that expenditure is expected to be in the region of 1,350.

The expected breakdown of capital expenditure in the period 1982 to 1985 is as follows: generation projects £700 million; transmission, £150 million; distribution, £200 million; premises and general, £50 million. The existing statutory limit on capital expenditure by the ESB was increased by £500 million to £1,200 million under the Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Act, 1979. This was sufficient to meet the ESB's requirements for about two years and the stage has been reached where capital expenditure by the ESB in excess of the present limit is unavoidable.

It is necessary, therefore, that the limit should be raised to enable the ESB to get on with their capital programme. The increase now proposed will meet the ESB's requirements for only about a year. However, the ESB have put proposals to my Department that future statutory limits should be expressed as a borrowing limit as in the case of other State bodies such as Bord na Móna and Bord Gáis Éireann and not as an expenditure limit. The proposed increase in the expenditure limit is therefore an interim measure until my Department, in consultation with the Department of Finance, have considered the ESB's alternative proposals.

I commend this Bill to the House.

Mr. Colley

Ba Mhaith liom an deis seo a thógaint chun comhghairdeas a dhéanamh leat a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, as ucht do thoghadh inné. Tá an-áthas ormsa gur toghadh tú agus fáiltím romhat ins an Chathaoir annseo. Ba mhaith liom chomh maith comhghairdeas a dhéanamh leis an Aire Stáit as ucht a thoghadh agus as ucht an deis atá tugtha dó bheith páirteach i gnothú agus forbairt polasaí fuinnimh, obair fíor-thábhach-tach atá le déanamh aige agus obair an-suimiúil ar fad. Tá mé cinnte go mbain-fidh sé taitneamh agus sásamh as an méid is féidir a dhéanamh ar son na tíre san Roinn ina bhfuil sé ag gníomhú.

We welcome this Bill and I personally welcome it since I think it was my Bill. It meets a particular purpose that has to be met—and urgently, as the Minister has explained—but for reasons he mentioned it is an interim measure and probably by the end of the year or next year there will be perhaps a more comprehensive and definitive Bill coming before the House in regard to the limitation on the capital expenditure of the ESB. I refer to limitation in relation to the normal procedure followed in cases such as this whereby limits are laid down which generally ensure that the affairs of the State company involved—in this case the ESB — come before the Oireachtas every two or three years. The Minister has taken the opportunity in introducing the Bill of giving us a fairly wide-ranging account of the activities of the ESB and other activities which impinge on those activities. It is useful that he has done so.

Perhaps I should begin with a query that I want to put to the Minister and on which he may be able to give some information. I understand that the result of a ballot by the group of unions in the ESB was expected about the end of last month on proposals for a comprehensive agreement which involved in many ways quite new concepts in industrial relations. If the Minister can give any information on the outcome of that ballot I would appreciate it. The potential of the comprehensive agreement is very considerable and its importance for the ESB and for the economy in general cannot be overestimated.

There has been an assumption in the past and there is an echo of it in the Minister's speech, although he does qualify it—correctly in my view—that growth in demand for electricity was a necessary concomitant of growth in the economy. That may not be so in future and certainly is unlikely to be so to the same extent as in the past. There are other reasons for saying that but if one considers the development of natural gas one can see by definition that if natural gas is developed on anything like the scale envisaged it must of necessity mean lower demand for electricity than would have otherwise come about. I mention this because it affects the planning of the generating capacity of the ESB in the future.

As the Minister said, when one talks about the generating capacity of the ESB one talks of something that is (a) very expensive; one talks of millions of pounds and (b) something that has a very long lead time. It is true, as the Minister said, that part of the programme on which the ESB are embarking is designed to give a degree of flexibility in that regard. That is as it should be. But I mention this point because I wish to urge the Minister to satisfy himself that the necessary account is being taken in the planning of the ESB generating capacity of the changes which are likely to occur as a result of the development of natural gas and any other developments that may take place. I am not saying that adequate account of that has not been taken but the programme was drawn up without regard to the developments that are now about to take place in regard to natural gas. The question is whether the degree of flexibility which is built into the ESB programme is sufficient to ensure that we do not embark on very heavy and unnecessary expenditure in the provision of generating capacity which will perhaps turn out to be considerably surplus to our requirements. That situation must be re-examined and the re-examination must take place in the Department of Energy and not merely in the ESB.

The Department of Energy are now geared to carry out such an examination effectively. It was not always so. One of the aims in setting up the Department was to ensure that the Department dealing with the ESB and other State bodies was geared to deal with them on a level of professional competence that had not been possible in the past. It is not putting the case too far to say that for many years past the relevant Department dealing with, say, the ESB and to some extent with Bord na Móna was in no position when proposals were put forward by the ESB for the development of generating capacity and other long-term developments to assess those plans and proposals. In effect, it simply acted as a conduit pipe passing on the proposals to the Department of Finance where they were assessed primarily on a financial and, to a lesser extent, economic basis. The Department dealing directly with the ESB was not in a position to assess the proposals put forward.

That position, I am glad to say, is changing, and changing fast. The effect of the change is certainly of benefit to the taxpayer but is also of benefit to the ESB and similar bodies. The ESB are finding it more satisfactory to deal with a Department which is geared to talk to them than was the case in the past and to discuss on their merits proposals which the ESB put forward.

The Minister mentioned in the course of his speech the subject of interconnection. I agree with all he has said on that topic. However, I should like to enter a small caveat in relation to a reference to interconnection which was made in the agreed policy document referred to yesterday as the “Gaiety Theatre document”. There seems to me to be a reference in it to the effect that the Coalition Government are going to go ahead and restore the interconnector and ensure its protection. There is an inference in that, which I hope was unintentional, which was echoing some of the propaganda we get from time to time from certain sources on the other side of the Border. It cannot be stressed too often that the destruction of the inter-connector on each occasion it was destroyed took place on the Northern side of the Border, not on the Southern side and not in a way that could be controlled in any way by the security forces answerable to Dáil Eireann and the Government elected by Dáil Éireann. The question of restoration of the interconnector is not one within the control or the competence of the Government. If it were it would have been restored a long time ago. I fully support what the Minister has said about the desirability of restoring the interconnector and I fully support what he has said about the considerable sums of money which could be saved to people in both parts of Ireland if the interconnector was operating but I reiterate that the responsibility for the destruction of the interconnector and the responsibility for its restoration does not lie with the Irish Government.

The Minister mentioned the ESB involvement in the development of alternative energy sources and I should like to avail of this opportunity to congratulate the board on the work done in this regard. I hope it is not unfair to say that the ESB was not over-enthusiastic about the development of alternative energy sources for some time but the board has tackled the problem in a workmanlike way and in a manner that will be of considerable importance in the future. The Minister has detailed what the ESB is doing this year in regard to wind power. I do not know what the outcome will be of the work being done by the ESB and other bodies, including the Department of Energy, on the development of wind power. Nobody knows that but I am aware that that work is necessary in order to establish what potential there is for the development of wind power in Irish conditions. Those conditions are quite different from conditions experienced in other countries. We are aware of this from practical experience because some of the wind generators which were designed for and suitable to conditions in other countries are totally unsuitable to conditions on the west coast. Indeed, they collapsed under the conditions prevailing on the west coast.

We have to establish the kind of wind generator that will be suitable to our conditions, the kind of electricity generation one can expect in such circumstances and the most appropriate area for development. One possible area, of course, is feeding into the national grid and that is being explored by the ESB. However, on the face of it that is unlikely to be the major use for wind power. The generation of electricity for an average sized farm, particularly one operating a milking parlour and the other paraphernalia of a modern farm, seems to have considerable potential. Water-pumping and drainage also seem to be an area of considerable potential. I should like to pay tribute to the ESB for the manner in which it is tackling this problem. It could be argued by the ESB that it is not really part of their function to develop alternative sources of energy but while that might be strictly true the ESB is one of our major State agencies with a degree of professional competence available to it as well as financial resources which are unique. As an agency of the State it is perhaps better placed than almost any other body to tackle a problem of this type.

Over the years the ESB have been willing to take on tasks which, strictly speaking, are not within their basic terms of reference but which in the national interest should be tackled. In this connection I might mention that not so very long ago I had occasion to be abroad and to meet some of the representatives of the ESB, in the Middle East particularly, where they were carrying out consultancy work. I was particularly impressed with the calibre of the people concerned and of the work they were doing. We tend not to know very much about this here and we undervalue the contribution that the ESB have been making in this area. If I mention one aspect of this it will underline the value of the contribution that is being made. I do not think I am disclosing any secrets when I say that the previous Government were very concerned about the fact that in certain areas of engineering we had a considerable shortage of engineers. As a result there were bottlenecks developing in areas where there were pockets of unemployment which could have been relieved if we could supply one of two engineers and hundreds of people could have been employed. We studied this matter. A very considerable effort on the part of the previous Government went into this to try to identify the problems and to see how they could be tackled.

In the course of this effort it was learned that a number of foreign firms were recruiting engineers even before they had graduated, even though we had a shortage of engineers here. We surveyed the availability of engineers in all walks of life and the output of engineers of our various institutions of third level education and the output of technicians. One of the matters that we quickly came up against was that the ESB had a considerable number of well qualified engineers operating abroad and we had a shortage of engineers in our own country and were trying to devise methods of getting more Irish engineers available to our economy. On the face of it the ESB should have been told to stop their operations abroad and bring the engineers home and thereby help to relieve unemployment. But in fact when the whole thing was assessed and the value to the overall national economy was assessed it was found that despite the difficulties that I have mentioned the contribution of the ESB engineers abroad was immeasurably greater than if they had been brought home, considerable as the contribution at home could have been. I mention this to underline the importance of the work that is being done by the ESB abroad although it was not started upon for that reason at all. The importance of that work is not generally realised here at home. The whole policy was started during the recession in the mid-seventies when the ESB found itself with a surplus staff and set up consultancy work abroad merely to find employment for that surplus staff and the whole operation has developed since then.

I want to refer also to the biomass experiment to which the Minister referred. Again there is work being done in that area which is not generally known but which also has very considerable importance and has been partly assisted by the European Community because of its potential importance for the whole community. Basically what is involved is the effort to grow trees which would be capable of being mechanically harvested in three to four years and would grow again and be harvested again in another three to four years without re-planting, and so on for about 20 years. The timber so harvested would be used to generate electricity. That is basically what is involved. Within that simple outline there are of course a number of areas of uncertainty, areas for working out and determining the optimum method of approach, for instance, the type of tree, the soil, the type of mechanical harvester, the type of generating station most suited to the combustion of this type of timber for the purposes of generating electricity, and so on.

A lot of work has been done in all these areas but further work needs to be done and is being done. Again I congratulate the ESB on the work they have been doing in this area. They have not of course worked alone but in conjunction with Bórd na Móna, an Foras Talúntais and I think NBST. The work is very worthwhile and has considerable potential for the future. I suppose the potential that is most appropriate in the minds of some people would be that the cut-away bog would be used for this purpose so that areas which have traditionally been supplying fuel would continue to supply fuel to the whole nation through the ESB. But the growing of biomass is not of course confined to cut-away bog.

In talking of some of these activities of the ESB the Minister mentioned the Lanesboro' project. Here I want to strike a different note to the one I have been striking up to now in regard to the ESB. I am not happy that the Lanesboro' project has been tackled with the same degree of urgency and commitment that has characterised some of the other activities of the ESB. I hope I am not wronging the ESB in saying that but it seems from what I have known of it that the progress in that area was much too slow or too leisurely. We were talking about a development over the next five or seven years and that should have taken place by now or certainly by next year at the latest. I would urge the Minister to pursue that aspect of the ESB's activities to see can it be speeded up and brought to a successful conclusion more quickly. I know it is all experimental but that is an area where the ESB, the Department of Energy and the European Community are subsidising the operation. So it is not as though the people who are taking glass houses in Lanesboro' to be heated by surplus heat from the Lanesboro' power station are being asked to make huge and risky commitments. If such people feel that that is so, it should not just be confined to people within a short radius of Lanesboro'. It might be thrown open to people from any part of the country who would be interested in tackling this experiment to their benefit.

The Minister mentioned the likelihood or the possibility of the piping of natural gas. The situation should be that later this month it should be possible to determine the successful tender for the laying of the pipeline from Cork to Dublin. The tenders were opened before I left office and I know there is more work to be done analysing them to find out the full story of each one. However, it seems to me that the work done to date on the project has been very satisfactory. I do not want to go into detail on the matter now. Apart from the fact that it would not be in order, I think it would be premature, but I can say that all the indications are that as a result of the approach I adopted as Minister for Energy the taxpayer is likely to save many millions of pounds—perhaps £50 million. I am anxious to see that project to ahead as quickly as possible, hopefully without cost to the Exchequer.

The provision of natural gas as another widespread source of energy in the Dublin area and in the towns adjoining the pipeline from Cork to Dublin, with extensions to other towns and areas, represents potentially a very substantial change in the pattern of energy consumption. As I said earlier, it is of great importance to the forward planning of the ESB.

The House will be aware that there have been discussions in connection with the possible extension of the pipeline to bring natural gas to Belfast. I was interested to note recently a statement made in the British House of Commons to the effect that as a result of discussions at ministerial and official levels there seemed to be at least a prima facie case for the laying of a pipeline to Belfast, that it was to be examined in detail by technically qualified people and, that as a result, the proposals of the British Government for closing down the town gas industry in Northern Ireland were being postponed for six months to enable this work to be carried out. I think in the rush of recent events that announcement may not have obtained a great deal of publicity but I think it is one of some significance.

Another activity of the ESB which the Minister touched on and which has considerable potential relates to Arigna. I do not think the Minister mentioned Arigna but I am sure that is what he had in mind. I am talking about the development of native natural resources. Up to now the ESB have been so dependent on oil that the escalating price of oil has affected very considerably the cost of industrial production and of commercial and domestic heating and cooking. Already a change is envisaged primarily arising out of the use of natural gas by the ESB for the purpose of generating electricity. As a result the percentage of units generated by the ESB from different energy sources for the year ended March 1980 was 64 per cent from oil, 16 per cent from peat, 11 per cent from gas, 8 per cent from hydro and 1 per cent from coal. I do not have the final figures for the year ended March 1981; the Minister may have the verified figures but, as I understand it, they are likely to work out at oil 55 per cent, peat 16 per cent, gas 20 per cent, hydro 8 per cent and coal 1 per cent. The switch there is a reduction in oil use and an increase in gas use and that is as it should be because we are talking about using natural gas which is a native resource. There is a question as to whether that is the best use of our natural gas but I am not going into that matter now. I am simply adverting to the switch in the use of native resources from imported resources.

All of this brings me back to Arigna because the ESB have a considerable role to play in that regard. We must accept that on land at any rate, whatever about offshore, our resources of coal are limited, certainly in quality. Recently a study of those resources was completed and a further more detailed study is under way on the question of the most effective way of developing our coal resources. What has emerged so far is that we have quite extensive coal resources in different parts of the country, most of which are low grade. One of the areas in which we have substantial resources of low-grade coal is the Arigna area. There the coal is approximately 55 per cent stone and it is almost impossible to imagine it being usable for the generation of electricity. The application of flouridised bed techniques in conditions appropriate to the burning of that coal in the Arigna area — I say that because the flouridised bed technique is international — meant a good deal of work by the ESB and the consultants they employ to devise the right method of utilising the crow coal available in the Arigna area. In effect, that has been done and the technique I have mentioned has been achieved. The ESB were given approval in principle for the building of a generating station at Arigna for the purpose of utilising that low-grade coal. It is estimated there is a supply for at least 25 years in that area to keep the generating station going.

That is not the only coal resource we have. The ESB, in developing the necessary technique for burning low grade coal at Arigna, are performing a useful function which could be extended and applied to other low grade deposits of coal to enable us to concentrate on utilising native resources for the generation of electricity. The degree to which we can do this means we can save on imported oil or imported coal to which the ESB have to switch to avoid undue dependence on oil. It is always possible that we will discover our own oil and I hope we will do so in the not too distant future. If we do, no matter how much we discover, it will be a finite resource. It does not mean that we can let it flow or burn it insatiably for the purpose of generating electricity. That would not be the correct use of it. We have an obligation to utilise all the possible sources of energy available to us within our jurisdiction. If we have the cushion of our oil it will make it easier to tackle the problems of developing our own resources. Whether we have our own oil or not the obligation will be on us.

I have not mentioned the major native resource we have which is used to a great extent by the ESB and that is turf. I did not mention it because we are all familiar with that operation. As I indicated, the ESB generated approximately 16 per cent of its electricity from peat in the year ended March 1980 and the year ended March 1981. We hope to see that stepped up. Bord na Móna are engaged on a development programme of their own. We hope also to see more turf made available through the scheme of grants designed to encourage the private producer of turf. To the extent that we use more turf for domestic, commercial or industrial purposes we are reducing the demand for electricity and imported oil.

In all these areas the ESB have a vital role to play, much wider and of greater significance in regard to our overall energy policy and use of native resources than might be apparent at first glance, particularly if one glances at the degree to which the ESB are at present dependent on imported oil. That does not give the whole picture. I have tried to outline some aspects of the situation to show the vital importance of the ESB and their activities in the development of our own native fuel resources.

I should like the Minister to get his Department to pay attention to the plans of the ESB for the installation of generation capacity, in the light of developments, particularly of natural gas, which I have outlined. With the best will in the world the ESB have to be prejudiced in favour of the development of a generation capacity which people outside the ESB might think excessive. The factors that go into that are many, not least the experience of the ESB over the years where the pressure for growth and to produce more electricity has been enormous.

As I have explained, the pattern the ESB have known all along is likely to change because of the development of natural gas and so on. It is necessary that people other than the ESB examine their programme critically. It has also to be taken into account that they — the Minister mentioned this — have to ensure that at any given time there is no shortage of electricity. Therefore, they have to cater for tremendous peaks of demand in the depth of winter not only domestically and commercially but with industry at maximum demand also. To do this requires a considerable amount of spare capacity, the minimum being the equivalent of the largest generating station because if that goes out the ESB have to be able to cater for it.

I had occasion some time ago to see an electricity generating station operating in Denmark. This station had interconnection to Sweden, Norway and Germany all at the same time. That kind of interconnection where one would be able to switch when the load is heavy in one country and at a lower peak in another is a tremendous luxury. We do not have that luxury. We do not even have interconnection with Northern Ireland. I hope in due course that not only will we have an interconnection there but with the rest of the EEC either through Britain or directly to the continent through the south of Ireland or perhaps both. However, it is probably so far away that it will not affect the plans for installed generating capacity of the ESB over the next seven or eight years. Nevertheless, it is something to be borne in mind and pushed ahead with as soon as possible. With the best will in the world it will be a slow process. I am aware that there are working parties operating on this. There may be a report due shortly from that working party. I will not go into that but would urge the Minister to keep up pressure in that area, because to have interconnection with the rest of the European Community could save us many millions of pounds in the cost of installed generating capacity. It is well worth our while to push ahead with that. If we have an interconnector we can sell electricity as well as buy it.

It would be a bit unrealistic of me, in discussing this ESB Bill and the programme for generating capacity in the future, to sit down without referring to the nuclear option. The proposal for a nuclear power station at Carnsore originated with the ESB, naturally enough, because they are the only body who are supplying electricity here and therefore are interested in this area. The procedure which would be necessary if there were to be any progress with a proposal to erect a nuclear power station has been outlined on a number of occasions. Basically it involves the publication of a report by an inter-departmental committee which has not yet been completed. Hopefully it will be a factual report on the various aspects of electricity generation by nuclear power including not just safety aspects but financial and economic aspects.

With the provision of that hopefully factual information, it would then be possible to have legislation enacted in this and the other House which would provide for the setting up of a tribunal of inquiry. The powers of that tribunal would incorporate the powers vested in the local authority in Wexford under the Planning Acts and one or two other Acts as well. When the public inquiry takes place interested parties will be able to make their submissions. A report will then be prepared and submitted to the Government of the day. Then and only then will a decision be made on whether or not a nuclear power station should be proceeded with.

It is clear enough from the figures available to us on the likely demand for electricity and the likely sources of supply that the urgency which some people thought existed in regard to the provision of a nuclear station does not exist at present. We have a greater amount of breathing space in which to consider this matter. I have no desire to preempt any decisions which might be made in that regard. However, I want to draw attention to one aspect of this matter which does not often get much of a public airing. Usually when this matter is referred to we are told about the safety aspects and people get very worked up on one side in particular, and sometimes on the other side.

The safety aspects are very important but there is another aspect which has to be considered also. Even if the safety aspects were satisfactorily dealt with —and that includes the disposal of waste, and so on—the proposition would not make any sense unless it were an economic proposition. This brings me back to what I said earlier when I referred to the fact that we have no interconnector. We tend to forget that we are a small island. I am talking about the whole island now. A nuclear electricity generating station, if we had one, would be more than adequate at full strength for the whole island. To be economical it would have to be able to supply electricity outside this island for considerable portions of its running time. If it were not able to do that—I have not got the final figures— I doubt very much from what I know that it would be an economic proposition.

There is a growing case for interconnection to a source which has a nuclear power station available to it and taking electricity from that source. In economic terms it is doubtful that a nuclear power station can be justified in this country. I am not offering that as a definitive opinion because I do not know, but I suspect it strongly from what I do know. I mention this topic merely because it would be unrealistic for me to conclude on this Bill without referring to it. I want to underline this: the fact that I have referred to it does not mean I think a nuclear power station is likely to come about here in the near future. On the contrary I believe that is not so. Apart from any safety aspects I have considerable doubts about the economic aspects of it.

Having said that, I should like to reiterate my support for this Bill and my admiration in general for the work the ESB have been doing over the years, and are doing now. I want to refer also to the importance that I believe attaches to the role of the ESB in the whole economic life of this country, a role which is far greater than would appear on the surface. I have considerable pleasure in supporting the passage of this Bill.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I should like to join in the many tributes paid to the ESB in this House and outside it. Since the foundation of this State they have rendered a national service and discharged their duties in a manner which has won the admiration and affection of all our people. They have made a wonderful contribution. Having regard to their record of work, service and dedication, any legislation introduced to deal with the ESB should meet with the approval of every Member of the House and the entire population.

It is right to salute the founders of the ESB and their technicians, advisers and engineers of the highest standard who have won respect and admiration far away from Irealnd where the ESB have been carrying out extremely constructive work at international level. Due to the vision of those early pioneers in the ESB a tremendous amount has been accomplished and achieved within a very short time, because 50 years in the lifetime of any country is a very short period. For that reason I salute the ESB past and present and express the hope that all their future efforts will be crowned with success. Their great contribution to this country and in recent years on the continent of Africa and elsewhere is remarkable.

That brings me to a very important point. Since we became Europeans— I should not say that because we were always part of Europe geographically— in recent years all our minds are directed towards the activities of Europe as members of the Community. Many in public life seem to be directing their attention and energies far from the shores of this country, at the same time forgetting that we are Irish, that we have our own country to look after, our own nation to develop and likewise our own energy resources to develop. We Irish are an extremely generous people when it comes to helping others, when it comes to speaking and assisting in the propaganda of other countries abroad, but we seldom display the same courage in the development of our own resources and our own country. Every Irishman, no matter what kind of European label may be tagged on to his coat, has an interest and duty to look after the development of his own country. The former Minister for Energy will forgive me for making this comment, but it appears that much energy had been devoted towards our European co-operation and advancement and development of the Community as a whole while at the same time forgetting our own national interests.

Some time in the future we will be brought to a realisation that our first duty is to our own country. It is a fact that we must import oils. I gather that in recent times the energies of the ESB have been devoted to cutting down on imports. Governments present and future in planning for the next decade and into the 2000s, will, I presume, likewise devote their energies towards cutting down as far as possible on imports. We should be able to cut down very drastically on imports of oil without our people suffering inconvenience. It is to be hoped that we will have our own energy for heating and light and that we will examine new methods of producing our own fuel for transport. If the present Minister is not already aware — I am sure that the former Minister is — I can tell him that at present one or two nations in this world do not have to import any petroleum or oil whatever because they are able to manufacture their own oil from sugar cane. If that is possible in these countries — two of them in particular — has it been examined at any stage here?

There is a close relationship between sugar cane and the sugar beet that we process in this country. Has any investigation been carried out into the suitability of sugar beet for the manufacture of petroleum? Have the ESB, with their high standard and supreme quality of engineers and technicians, given any consideration to that aspect? It may be that they have and found it to be unsuitable or uneconomical. I do not know. But I cannot recall reading any report or comment regarding the association of sugar beet with sugar cane from which in at least two countries a supply of petroleum of a very superior quality can be manufactured. These countries have no transport problems because this type of fuel is cheap for them. It may take, say, four tons of sugar beet to produce about one ton weight of the petroleum and perhaps it would be completely and entirely uneconomical for us. Nevertheless, it is worthy of some investigation.

The cost of oil will never again be as low as it used to be. If we are anxious to cut down on our imports of oil we have to depend on the ESB to present us with a new situation in the provision of energy for heating and cooking for the normal family, for transport and particularly for industry. In recent years since our farms have been modernised the farmers have been depending completely on electricity for milking machines and agricultural equipment.

The time has come for a complete review of the whole structure of the ESB. We are now presented with supplies of natural gas. When the pipeline from Cork to Dublin and, it is to be hoped, from Dublin to Belfast, is completed the contribution of natural gas will have changed the situation rather drastically for the ESB. For that reason the ESB will be embarking on a new period of history. Before I leave the question of natural gas, which we all welcome, I pay tribute to everybody who has been connected with it. I hope and trust that when the tenders have been examined and work is put in hands the responsible authorities will provide a map for the public showing the course of the pipeline, the towns and cities, as the case may be, which will be supplied with gas from the main line. If this is done, there can be planning not alone at regional level, but also at county level and local authorities will be able to help and advise, particularly the district offices of the ESB. With a measure of co-operation we should be able to cut down drastically on our imports of oil.

The ESB have been working closely and satisfactorily with Bord na Móna. Everybody — not just in Parliament — should be four square behind the ESB in their efforts to utilise our natural resources. How often must we plead in the House for the full development of our own natural resources? The good Lord may not have blessed us with an extraordinarily exciting climate. Nevertheless, our weather is never too hot or too cold, too dry or too wet. For that reason, we are in a great position to develop the natural resources we have, namely, our fuel which is buried in the bottom of the earth. While the rest of Europe and, perhaps, the rest of the world, with the exception of the Third World countries, has developed all its natural resources, we, with native Government since the early twenties, are approaching the year 2000 with the greatest part of our mineral deposits undeveloped. What has been done in the last 50 years is merely scratching the surface. I wonder what the future holds in relation to the development of our mineral resources. I am anxious to know what contribution will come from European funds in order to develop our coal, bogs, light and heat. The less we depend on the outsider, the better. We have to stand on our own two feet in relation to this matter. The ESB and Bord na Móna have made a wonderful contribution. Together they have changed the face of my constituency. If I were asked to paint a picture of the constituency of Laois-Offaly from the late thirties and forties and compare it with today, it is doubtful if any of the present generation would believe the transformation which has taken place as a result of the activities of the ESB and Bord na Móna and the co-operation between them.

We have the ESB power station at Shannonbridge which has been extended and is one of the greatest developments which has taken place. I wonder what has happened to the report of the late sixties in which the area of the Blackwater bog was recommended as one of the most suitable sites, on a par with Mount Lucas and Littleton in County Tipperary, for the construction of a briquette factory. For some reason or other, whether it is the present development of the power station at Shannonbridge or whether it was the policy of Bord na Móna and the ESB to spread their custom around in order to provide employment and to satisfy local demand, there was never any mention since of the construction of the briquette factory convenient to the Blackwater bog in the Shannonbridge area. Could there be a more important area for development? The Brosna River has been drained in recent years, where there is the greatest vein of turf and fuel in Ireland. The ESB have one of the most satisfactory power stations standing on lands on which I often spent pleasant evenings, before there was ever any question of a power station being constructed in these areas. The amount of employment which has been given by the ESB in the Shannonbridge area has enriched probably every home in the locality. The activities of Bord na Móna have, likewise, enriched community living in the area. It meant more houses, more people, more schools, more children, more playgrounds, a greater demand in the local shops, a demand for more shops and consumption of more food. It has completely changed the face of the Shannonbridge area from the time when I first visited it in the late forties.

Nobody could compare Rhode, County Offaly, today with what it was like in the forties. It can now be described as a town with vast new housing estates, lively activity and a growing parish, simply because the ESB constructed a fine new generating station in the locality. This was in the midst of one of the greatest bogs in County Offaly. These bogs have been used for feeding the ESB generating station. The amount of employment which has been given in that locality has changed the whole face of that area. There is a briquette factory at Mount Lucas in the heart of County Offaly. Before it was constructed there was no activity to be seen. From time to time the gentry might be seen walking the bogs among the heather for the purpose of shooting and raising the necessary wildlife in order to enliven their sporting activities. Today there is a vast difference and a great change because one of Ireland's great turf producing briquette factories is there, giving employment both permanent and temporary. For that reason, the whole face of that locality has been changed completely as a result of the activities for the development of what was down in the ground and what was considered, many years ago, to be bogland. The bogs in those areas have been turned into gold for many families. It is pitiful to see hundreds and thousands of acres of undeveloped, virgin bog which neither the ESB nor Bord na Móna have worked on. What has been done in one area can be done in other areas. There is a great future programme for both Bord na Móna and the ESB to undertake jointly plans which may result in the cutting down of our oil imports and the obtaining of all our requirements from native turf.

The town of Portarlington, once a town with few industries, was greatly improved by the arrival of the ESB and the construction of the great power station there, with the ensuing increase in employment and business for the community. Perhaps the most dramatic change in my constituency brought about by the ESB is the new twin tower ESB station at Lumcloon, near Cloughan, County Offaly. I often stood on the very land which that power station now occupies. During the ESB chairmanship of the late Mr. Browne, I can recall making representations to a number of local farmers, one of whom is still alive at 95 years of age, in an attempt to encourage them to give their land to the ESB for the construction of this power station. There was great hesitation then, because people did not realise the importance of these great electricity generating stations. Four farmers eventually agreed to give their land and when the ESB completed the contract at the Lumcloon station, the town of Ferbane and the village of Cloughan were changed as a result of the employment given in what was the heart of the boglands. Because of the development of Boora Bog, it was eventually necessary to build a new Catholic Church in Boora to accommodate the local people. Business was vastly increased. The young people there had a hope which their fathers and grandfathers never had and a pay packet coming in each week which was far removed from the £2 or £2.10s for the sale of their grandfather's cow at the fair of Banagher or Birr. These developments should continue at an even speedier rate because we have all the resources in other undeveloped parts of my constituency and of the country in general.

I pay tribute to Bord na Móna and the ESB for the changing face of the counties of Offaly and Laois, of Coolnamona town below Portlaoise, where an individual was seldom seen but which is now a hive of activity because of its peat moss industry. In addition, in recent years, drainage of the River Brosna in Offaly has helped the drainage of the bogs. There is little use in draining bogs if there is nowhere for the water to go. Here again, the Board of Works made their contribution. With Rhode and Portarlington, Shannonbridge and Mount Lucas, with the new briquette factory at Derrinlough, near Birr there has been a change in the heart of the country where nothing could be seen but a desolate and lonely expanse of bogland and heather. Derrinlough can now be described as a hive of industry, producing briquettes for the home market and for export. I am extremely proud to represent the constituency of Laois-Offaly, and that I have lived to see such extraordinary development, unbelievable when compared with the lack of development in the early forties.

I want to emphasise something which has been covered already by the speech of the former Tánaiste. I refer to the necessity for the construction of coal-burning stations. If native coal is to be used alongside turf, it is vital that we mine our coal and anthracite deposits. There are coal mines in my constituency which have coal for at least 200 years, in many parts of the Rossmore Collieries, at Woodhill, Doonane and Mayo in County Laois, bordering Carlow and Kilkenny but within County Laois.

According to a survey undertaken many years ago by the British Government, some of the most productive coal areas are in County Laois. The ESB and other Government agencies may think it uneconomic to take part in the development of that coal-mining industry. May I place this project before the Department of Energy and, in particular, before the present new, young and energetic Minister? Coal-mining has long been a tradition in the Rossmore area of County Laois. Old miners still tell of their efforts down under the ground, mining coal and anthracite in the past. Their fathers were coalminers and their sons and grandsons still are. However, there seems to be a very limited amount of this work available now.

I want to pay special tribute to the assistance given by the former Minister for Energy, Deputy Colley, during his period of office. He may recall the deputations of which I was a member. He was extremely helpful in the re-opening of the coal mines in the Rossmore area, which gave a new ray of hope to the young miners of the area. It takes a great man to be a coalminer. It is skilled, traditional work which every man could not undertake. The young and old miners, some of whom visited Deputy Colley when he was Minister, love the mines and can talk of nothing but the shafts, the flooding of the mines, the ways of raising coal. Is it not regrettable that, whilst we see the development of coalmines in parts of Luxembourg, Germany and Britain, the people of Luxembourg, Germany or Britain do not seem to have cared about the development of our coalmining industry? If we do not look, we will not get. In the period which lies ahead, if we are eventually to have a drastic cutback in our oil imports, we must have energy.

We must do something about the energy situation, irrespective of cost. What is cost when it comes to developing our natural resources and taking out of the earth what God gave us for man's use and benefit? It must be remembered that national housekeeping is only bookkeeping and the same can be said for banking. The custodians of our national housekeeping do not appear to put sufficient emphasis on the development of our energy resources simply because we do not have the necessary financial wherewithal.

We have a duty to our people and to future generations to develop our bogs and to mine the anthracite and coal, which are in abundance in the Leinster coalfields. When the Castlecomer mines closed I did not believe that was the end of the coal in that area. The old miners said there was coal there and I believe them. Recent surveys tell of anthracite and coal in these areas. If only we had a Coal Board with the enthusiasm and dedication that exists in the ESB. We do not have a Coal Board. Neither Bord na Móna nor the ESB are responsible. I suppose it is not possible to get private enterprise to invest in coal development because of the cost of opening shafts, providing security and the cost of insurance and protection of the workers, but the State has a responsibility in this area.

We have a young enthusiastic Government anxious to undertake new tasks and new responsibilities. This is an area in which they could become involved. They may say that our fuel and mineral resources have not been developed in the past but they should not be too critical because some efforts were made in that direction. With new life, energy, faith and hope, there is no reason why they cannot develop our bogs and mines and so make a contribution to the national economy.

We need the coal and anthracite which lie under the ground. There are many virgin bogs all over this country. Bord na Móna say that because of financial restrictions they cannot do what is necessary but must work to a plan. The more money we invest, the more employment we create. The greater the contribution of coal and turf to our economy, the fewer balance of payments problems we will have.

I do not know what plans the ESB and Bord na Móna may have for the development of our fuel resources. When the Bord na Móna Estimate is discussed in this House I hope Deputies on all sides will ensure that serious efforts are made to develop every bog in this country. These bogs could provide fuel which could be converted into briquettes and, if necessary, transported to our ESB stations. It is wrong to have such wealth under the soil while there are so many people, 140,000, unemployed. How many more people in rural Ireland could Bord na Móna employ?

I want to pay a tribute to the scheme which will provide grants to private bog owners to develop their bogs. Some of these owners will avail of these grants, and I would like to see Bord na Móna qualifying for the extra money. They have the machinery, the skill and the qualified personnel to help private bog owners. Their staff could work as agents for the development of private bogs because this work must be undertaken on a large scale and using the most modern machinery. This machinery must be used by experts and such skills can only be provided by Bord na Móna. I hope another look will be taken at this area.

Before the change of Government I intended meeting the then Minister, Deputy Colley, about this matter because of discussions I had with Bord na Móna workers in my constituency and with a number of private bog owners. The owners told me they could not undertake the necessary preliminary work because of the lack of skilled workers and up-to-date machinery and that the grant would not enable them to engage the services of such skilled workers and hire the necessary machinery, which is not available to the general public. This means we must get Bord na Móna involved in this scheme. They have seasonal and permanent workers who could be engaged developing private bogs and if this were done the temporary workers would be permanently employed.

There is endless work to be undertaken in rural Ireland. Any Government who do not undertake these tasks will have to account to the public every three or four years. The development of the midlands and every part of Ireland depends on political will. If the political will exists, anything can be done. A country with 140,000 unemployed, with undeveloped bogs and untapped mines, with energy problems and with a home market which can use any energy sources produced, should be able to utilise these resources and so solve its problems.

We have thousands of acres of cut-away bog suitable for planting a certain type of tree needed by the ESB. I realise this pilot scheme is in its infancy but steps can be taken to prepare the cut-away bogs for these plantations. With the co-operation of the Department of Fisheries and Forestry, Bord na Móna and the ESB there is an unlimited amount of productive work available.

I would ask the Minister to bear in mind the matter of industrial relations within the ESB. We have now reached a stage where people cannot do without an electricity supply and in the event of an unofficial strike the whole country can be brought to a standstill within 24 hours. The farming industry can be paralysed; cows cannot be milked and there is a high death rate in hatcheries. Every form of agricultural activity now depends on electricity. Heat is also necessary in the home, especially for the sick and the elderly, and it is tragic that they are sometimes deprived of it. The wheels of industry grind to a halt when the current is cut off. Steps must be taken by the ESB to see that this never again takes place. There is too much to lose.

There must be an improvement in relations between workers and management. Poor industrial relations are caused by lack of understanding and commonsense and by a failure to give and take. One side cannot settle an argument or a dispute without the co-operation of the other. The people will never again tolerate directors sitting in boardrooms taking all and giving nothing. They have a duty to protect their employees and to look after their interests. The disputes which happened in the past must be looked on as history and avoided in the future.

Deputy Colley referred to nuclear power and there has been much talk in recent years in connection with the ESB's proposal to embark, with Government approval, on the construction of a nuclear power station. Every Member knows my views on that subject — I am strongly anti-nuclear. Deputy Colley did not wish to give a decision on the matter without going through the rounds of a public inquiry at which different interests would express their views and following which a report would be submitted to the Government for a decision. Why waste all that time and personal energy? Nuclear energy is dangerous. It takes five years to construct a nuclear power station and it has a life of only 20 years. Such a project would be uneconomic and would not make sense. An accident could occur, such as that at Harrisburg, which would involve loss of life, grave danger to the health of many thousands of people and the destruction of bird and fish life. Who would take the decision to go ahead with such a project in the light of all the possible dangers? It should also be remembered that the number of jobs involved would be very limited.

The Government of Austria decided, following the building of a nuclear plant, to hold a referendum on the subject. The people voted against nuclear power and the plant cannot now function because of their rejection. We will not put the people to the trouble of having a referendum on whether or not to have nuclear energy. It will be rejected out of hand if I have anything to say about it. A nuclear station here would put the environment at risk, the very air we breathe and the water we drink. The whole environment could be destroyed by the nuclear hand of death if somebody forgot to pull a switch or pulled the wrong switch. Let us not take the risks of Harrisburg or the risks that have been taken in other areas where nuclear stations have been erected. I have read every document issued by the Council of Europe on nuclear plants and I am convinced that the quality of life in the locality of such a plant is at grave risk. I appeal to the Government to reject out of hand the erection of a nuclear station and not waste any more time with inquiries. I am sure the House will agree that we are living in an age in which we must consider a degree of economy. I recommend that the Department of Energy exercise economy by not wasting time or money on inquiries about nuclear stations.

If he can do so, will the Minister say what is the position in relation to the study being undertaken in connection with the Leinster coalfields, apart from the coalfields in my constituency that I have already mentioned? Is this a study from which there will be a 500-page highly technical report above the heads and intelligence of the ordinary man to digest or will it be a report which will facilitate the immediate development of the Leinster coalfields? Will we have to await this report for another three, five or seven years and when it is received will it be left on the shelves of Government offices to be taken down and read for the convenience of a variety of politicians? The Department of Energy should take the necessary steps to ensure that the production of the report is not delayed and that decisions are taken to implement whatever part of the report is practical. This is vitally important.

The ESB are charged with the responsibility of providing heat and light to homes. I have pitied and sympathised with young married couples who, having erected and furnished their homes, then find that in rural Ireland vast sums, ranging from £500 to £1,500, have to be paid to the ESB for connecting the current to the house. This has meant considerable hardship in some cases. People who are being encouraged to set up homes and rear families in rural Ireland should be given more consideration and they should get lighting and heating without first having to pay for the poles and the wire. The Department of Energy should introduce a scheme through the ESB so that people setting up house need not pay for the wire and poles but would only have to pay for the supply when they started using it. If the ESB are to give a service it behoves the State to ensure that people only pay for the lighting and the heating. There should be an additional subsidy to the ESB to eliminate this penal cost so that people can have electricity supplies connected to their homes without additional penury. Many young people have to borrow money for this or else spend a long winter in cold and darkness. Steps should be taken to eliminate such hardship.

I salute the ESB on their contributions to date. They have a new future ahead of them. I admire the quality of our engineers at home and abroad. Irish engineers from Bord na Móna and the ESB go abroad and are looked upon as the pride of Ireland.

I hope future years will prove fruitful for the ESB in relation to the development of our bogs and alternative power requirements. I do not know if the Minister referred to how far they have gone in researching power from tidal waves, or what are those prospects. For example, has there been a full examination carried out of what additional power might become available through harnessing of additional rivers apart from Poulaphouca and Ardnacrusha on the Shannon? There must be other sources of energy capable of development by the ESB to contribute to our energy requirements.

I should like to pay tribute also to the industrial concerns and trade unions who co-operated in the appeal for the saving of electricity. The former Minister, Deputy Colley, toured the country in a campaign to advise people not to waste electricity. I do not know whether other Deputies have referred to that campaign but I think it was effective and has borne results in many industries and private homes in which a saving on electricity has been effected.

I should like to see the day — though it is extremely doubtful that I shall live to see it — when we can stand on our own feet without the necessity to import oil, the day when we can meet our energy requirements through the fullest possible development of our peatland and our coal and anthracite resources which are there in abundance. Do not mind the reports that contend it is not of high quality; one does not know its quality until it is mined, and a market can be obtained for it no matter what its quality. In the meantime it would create worth-while employment giving young people an assurance that they could obtain a day's work in the vicinity of a coalmine or an undeveloped bog. Before long I hope we will see an effort being made by the ESB, in conjunction with Bord na Móna — a survey having been carried out — to develop all our bogland. Such would constitute an enormous contribution by the ESB towards this nation, to Irish men and women, giving us the power necessary for our factories, industries, farms, homes and so on. However, a lot more awaits doing. This is where the Government can give a courageous lead by entering into consultation with the management of these boards, saying, "Present us with the plans, we will give you the money, get on with the work". I would also hope that our Ministers travelling abroad, particularly those who are Members of the European Parliament, will stress continuously the need for more money from our wealthy partners because we are the poor relation and must be looked after. If wealthy European countries are prepared to share in the transition of the face of this country no better way can they do so than through the development of our bogs and coal resources thereby cutting down on our oil imports in accordance with the policy laid down by the Department of Energy.

Mr. Keegan

I will give one commitment, that I shall not speak as long as the previous speaker. He dealt with many aspects of our energy problems not peculiar to this Bill. Nevertheless I agree with most of what he had to say.

I should like to avail of this opportunity to welcome the new Minister for Energy here but I should say I was disappointed that this ministry did not carry the full rank of Cabinet member. It is now one of the most important ministeries in this and in every other country throughout the world. Therefore, I was indeed disappointed that the new administration did not see fit to have a fully fledged Minister for Energy. However, better times may lie ahead.

I want to wish you, a Cheann Comhairle, well in your new office. I can assure you that I will not be one of the people who will give you any undue cause for concern.

I welcome the opportunity of making a few observations on this Bill, its introduction rendered necessary because of the continued expansion of the ESB and our continued industrialisation over the last 20 or 30 years. The ESB are in the fortunate situation that, unlike other industries, they have unlimited demand for their product, namely electricity, with which to generate power for industry, agriculture, horticulture and indeed hospitals and clinics throughout the country. Therefore, they are more fortunate than other industries in that they do not have to worry about a recession, a declining market or any of the other enormous problems confronting other industries here and throughout the world. The ESB were fortunate in that they were founded at a time when the country began to develop, when our economists felt it was time we modernised our economy, ensuring that the talents available to us were fully utilised and additional ones encouraged and developed. The ESB were fortunate also in that they had an important role to play in the development of our economy. They have been successful in that role for many reasons, the first being that their product was in ever-increasing demand. Anybody requiring power had to get it through one of their networks and had to pay for it. That is why they have expanded and developed as has no other semi-State enterprise.

There have been many references also to Bord na Móna, who have expanded and developed side by side with the ESB because their activitives are complementary to each other. That is why those two great State industries made such rapid strides over the last quarter of a century. The importance of the ESB and Bord na Mona has become apparent to all of us now more so than ever. This importance has been emphasised even more because of the world oil crisis we have experienced in recent times. Most Members will recall that perhaps 12 or 14 years ago the ESB found it was uneconomic to produce electricity from our bogs, rivers, coalfields or any other source. However, the wise Arabs changed that situation. There has been a complete transformation of the energy field worldwide in recent years. We realise now it is no longer profitable to buy oil on the high seas. It was bought for as low as $7 a ton, transported here, used for heating our homes, generating our power stations and so on. We could not produce energy from our bogs or other resources as competitively, bearing in mind oil purchased for as low as $7 a ton on the high seas. All that has changed and every country has to find other means of producing energy. We are fortunate in having at our disposal many ways of producing energy which if properly harnessed could provide us with our energy needs for many years to come.

Deputy Flanagan mentioned the hydro schemes which were first set up in the late twenties. Those schemes were successful. I am very surprised that very little attention has been given to those hydro schemes in recent years. The Minister referred to the micro hydro schemes which are being operated by private enterprise. I am surprised that there is not more emphasis on this in the Minister's speech. He may refer further to the importance of generating electricity from micro hydro schemes. We have an abundance of water in our rivers and waterways throughout the country which should be looked at. There is no difficulty in establishing those micro hydro schemes to generate electricity which can be fed into the national grid. This is an example of private enterprise complementing state enterprise.

I am disappointed there is no mention in the Bill of financial assistance for private enterprise in areas where they propose to establish micro hydro schemes. We have thousands and thousands of old corn mills throughout the country which are idle. The water courses with them are available and could be utilised now. We have a plentiful supply of turbines. If those turbines were brought back into use and more turbines manufactured, I am confident we would have another source of power supply which nobody thought about a few years ago.

I hope the Minister will refer to the importance of the micro hydro schemes and outline the plans he has to compliment the efforts of those people. I feel this area needs attention. As far as I know, a survey has been made in recent years but I believe a great deal more needs to be done in this field so that we can avail of the enormous amount of power which can be generated by those hydro schemes. The turbines to power those generators can be manufactured here. Recently I heard of turbines which were manufactured 50 years ago which are still in operation and capable of producing power. We should encourage people to install more of this equipment to ensure that further sources of energy are available to the ESB.

We know what happens to the ESB when there is industrial unrest. The ESB have no reserves to call on when there is a complete power failure. Deputy Flanagan mentioned the farmer unable to milk his cows, the housewife unable to provide heat for the chickens in the hatcheries, the workers in the factories without power and the patients in hospitals. There is a never-ending list of problems which occur when there is a power failure. The Minister of State is new to his office and has not had time to examine all the problems associated with energy. That is why I am disappointed he does not hold the rank of a full Minister. However, as he is charged with responsibility for energy, I urge on him the importance of exploring all the avenues made available in this field. Our climate ensures that we have an everlasting water supply. Our biggest trouble seems to be that we have too much water and that we have too many drainage problems. The state resources are not adequate to keep our land drained to ensure it is used to its full potential. This is one area where water can be used to its full potential. I appeal to the Minister to regard it as an area which has huge potential, because private enterprise can play its full part and complement the activities of the ESB.

I would like to see some broadening of the terms of reference governing the financing of the ESB. I would like to see the ESB brought more under the umbrella of the Dáil because it appears the board operate on their own and have enormous powers which cannot be questioned even in this Parliament. That matter needs to be looked at in future. The situation exists because nobody realised when the ESB were first established that they were creating the monster the ESB have become today. This monster has played a very significant role in our economy and Irish society generally.

We all welcome any opportunity for co-operation between the electricity board in the North and our ESB here, because that is a step in the right direction. They are both producing something which can be used throughout the whole of this small island. We would like to see greater co-operation in this field so that in an emergency we will have available unlimited supplies to keep the wheels of industry revolving. I feel that in these difficult times there is need for this House to have greater control over the entire operations of the ESB, although I am satisfied this is one semi-State body that has worked well because the ESB have been successful in having in their ranks men who are dedicated to the task, who had the necessary skills to create expansion and to ensure that the Board kept pace with their obligations and duties to our expanding economy in recent years.

We do not know a great deal about wind power. Experiments are being carried out and small generating plants are being installed. We hope this will be successful because this is another way of generating electricity at low cost. That is what we want because we know it is very expensive to produce electricity from turf fired stations or oil-powered stations.

The decision to establish turf-fired stations has proved to be a wonderful asset. Like Deputy Flanagan, I come from the midlands where we have thousands of acres of bog and where thousands of valuable permanent jobs have been created by the ESB and Bord na Móna. No words of mine are adequate to praise the work carried out by the two organisations during the years. They have become an enormous help to stabilise the rural population. This House should pay a tribute to the founder members of the two bodies because of the contributions they made. Many of them have gone to their eternal reward but they did excellent work. We cannot take such institutions for granted and therefore we should say how delighted we are with the way Bord na Móna and the ESB have been able to expand their activities. Bord na Móna have succeeded in finding world markets for their products.

Peat briquettes have been referred to and Deputy Colley spoke about obtaining energy from biomass. Two private individuals in the midlands are researching the possibility of manufacturing wood briquettes and we may be seeing such products on the market before long. People in the joinery industry decided to do something with the bits and pieces of timber left over which were not suitable for the manufacture of chipboard. Now those two individuals in the midlands have established a small plant for the manufacture of briquettes from such waste. It is experimental and I suggest the Minister would request the ESB or the Department of Energy to give some assistance to this research work. Those people have been prepared to install machinery and they need encouragement. In Europe they are experimenting with all sorts of alternative sources of energy. They are setting up big open furnaces to bale sugar cane stocks which can be used for the production of heat. Therefore, it is important that we make every effort to provide money for research into the manufacture of the timber briquettes I have been speaking of which could be manufactured from sprigs, branches and even the leaves of trees.

I should like the Minister to tell us if a survey has been made of our rivers and the possibility of setting up micro hydro schemes. That is another area that needs attention if we are to utilise all our raw materials for the production of energy. We will all welcome the day, if it ever comes, when no longer will we be dependent on the Arabs to sell us expensive oil with which to generate the energy to power our factories and heat our homes. There will always be a need for some oil for cars which we see on our roads in ever increasing numbers. But we need more experiments like that at Lanesboro and we need greater awareness of the possibilities of such experiments. Every encouragement should be given to enterprises like that at Lanesboro which is using by-products to produce steam which can be used locally in horticulture houses. We spend millions each year importing vegetables and such experiments could save us millions in our balance of payments. We hope that money will be made available for such efforts. We all know that there is not a bottomless pit of financial resources — we will know more about bottomless pits before the Dáil goes into recess, but, the ESB should receive all encouragement in their programme of development and expansion. We have here the necessary expertise and the necessary raw materials.

Deputy Flanagan spoke of nuclear power and expressed strong opposition to it. Its development is only in its infancy, although it is being used in Britain, throughout Europe and in Russia. Greater research will have to be done to ensure that ultimately nuclear power will be as safe as the internal combustion engine which was invented in the eighteenth century in the face of fierce opposition when people said a man's body was not capable of withstanding the energy thus generated. In 50 or 100 years nuclear energy will be as safe as the internal combustion engine which was so feared nearly two centuries ago. In the meantime, we have unlimited supplies of peat, of wind, which we are never short of, and water, but I do not see any need to fear a holocaust if nuclear power was introduced here.

Future generations will probably live to see nuclear power made safe for mankind and properly harnessed and available in every progressive and expanding country requiring power. We have been told that oil will run out. We know the bogs will run out and possibly in 20 years we shall have no further peat reserves. That is why we must turn the clock backwards — history has a knack of repeating itself — and go back to hydro-schemes. We can do a great deal more in hydro development. I believe the Shannon can accommodate further hydro-schemes. It was the first scheme to be established and I do not know why further such schemes were not developed. In a changing situation it was necessary for the ESB to look at all the options open to them. This is one option I am sure they will fully investigate as time goes by. Possibly in our time we shall see the end of peat and that is why it is important to encourage the development of biomass. It is something that can grow rapidly in this country; it can be machined and used. That is why experiments being carried out by private individuals in regard to timber briquettes are so important. If these are successful such a development could operate side by side with the production of biomass.

I am satisfied that the ESB must be given every encouragement to expand and develop. They have now become part and parcel of our economy and of our daily living. They have been taken for granted for too long. Like Deputy Flanagan, I conclude by saying that I hope we shall see continuing improvement in industrial relations in the ESB. Thank goodness they have now come a considerable way without any industrial unrest in that industry which is so vital for all our needs. We hope goodwill and understanding will prevail at all times and that we shall see an end to industrial unrest in the ESB and Bord na Móna. I compliment Bord na Móna on being one of the most successful semi-State enterprises we have. We hope their work will continue until all our bogs have been utilised for the benefit of the national economy.

Mr. Sherlock

The Deputy who stood here half an hour ago covered the ground very well. In supporting the Bill and realising that it is designed to provide finance for capital projects in the ESB I cannot allow the opportunity to pass without reminding the Minister that a very serious situation is now arising — I am not exaggerating — in that people cannot afford to pay ESB bills. I have seen people on fixed incomes having to "go without" in order to pay the ESB. The fear in their minds that they will be cut off and be left without electricity is a very real fear. It causes much unrest and disturbance among the people concerned. If costs continue to rise under the fuel variation clause there will be a situation where people will say they cannot afford to pay and will resort to some other means of getting light and heat. I wish to have note taken of that.

There is great need for a subsidy to enable people, particularly young couples, who want to build houses and who find that in order to get electricity they have to get one or two poles at a cost of £500 for just one pole, to do so. It is extraordinary how that cost could be so high. Unless it is subsidised I believe people will have to try something else. This is a real problem. Recently in a small co-operative housing scheme in my area all the costs were estimated at the outset but the one that spiralled was the cost of supplying electricity from the public lighting system to that area and its installation in the houses. Had that cost been known before the project was undertaken it would not have been undertaken because extra finance had to be sought to cover that expenditure. It was the last straw that broke the camel's back. These were people who could only barely afford to build their own houses.

I make these points because there is need to speak about them now. The increasing cost of electricity, if it continues to increase as it is at the moment, will create a very serious situation. I may be digressing somewhat from the business we are discussing which concerns capital projects but it is rather surprising that the position should be as I have indicated. I would welcome an opportunity at some stage of going into this matter because ESB customers pay their bills. It is amazing in a body which is long established and has a great volume of customers and corresponding revenue that some of this money cannot be utilised for some of this capital work. How are costs increasing? Is management at local level what it should be? Are the services being rendered compatible with the amount paid for these services? These are questions that require examination. Is it right to have a situation in which a person is ready to have a connection made to his home but because an application may have been a little late in arriving the local official can say, "We have a programme to carry out and we will not deviate from it no matter what your circumstances may be. You must wait for two months until we are ready to provide a service for you." That kind of service is not good enough for the public and there is severe criticism of it. I should like the Minister to take a serious look at the points I have made. Perhaps these matters are a problem only in my area but they are definitely a problem there and that is why I have spoken about them.

Mr. Calleary

My contribution will be very short. First, I sincerely congratulate the Minister of State on his appointment which is well due to him. I hope his tenure of office will be of great benefit to him and that he will enjoy it but he will forgive me if I say I hope it will be a short one. I also congratulate the Leas-Cheann Comhairle on his election to that office. Deputies who have contributed have made comprehensive speeches but my contribution will be brief. I also vow that I will never speak after Deputy Flanagan again. I will be more careful in the position I take. The Bill is welcome and is an indication of the tremendous amount of work the ESB have undertaken in recent years, particularly major capital works. Two years after the limit of the board was extended it must now be extended again. I note that the ESB, in consultation with the Departments of Finance and Energy, will have another look at how they might finance capital works. I am aware that in the main the money is required for the large capital projects which the ESB have in hand but I should like the Minister to stress to the ESB the need for the development of existing capacity and enlarge the capacity in existing stations.

To be somewhat parochial I should like to ask the Minister the position in relation to Bellacorick. Much has been said over the last five years about that station. Up to 1957 that area was a wilderness but the station now plays a vital part in the economic and social life of the area, particularly in relation to the town of Cross-molina. The economy of that town depends on the works being carried out by Bord na Móna and the ESB in the power station in the Bellacorick region. On the occasion of a recent visit to this station I got the impression that the staff felt it could play a greater role in the ESB network than it enjoys. In an area with many square miles of bog the ESB should have closer consultation with Bord na Móna as to the development that can take place. Having discussed this with the staff I believe there is a greater need for such consultation. There are great prospects for that station. I am aware that biomass experimental work is in progress at Bellacorick but fears have been expressed by a number of the operatives at that station as to what might happen there. The Minister should request information in relation to this from the ESB and I would be grateful if he would pass it on to me.

The station I have referred to is a monument to the foresight, determination and dedication of the late Seán Lemass. It plays a tremendous part in the social and economic life of that area. On the occasion of the opening of a festival in Crossmolina recently I was glad to see that the local station had played a tremendous part. Officials of the station had on show a scale model of a wind turbine. That represents a step in the right direction. Such work should have been done a long time ago but I should like to compliment the ESB on their drive to find alternative sources of energy. As other Deputies have stated a number of our natural resources are finite and while they can still be developed we must seek alternative sources of energy. Such alternative sources must be found in areas like Mayo where the excuse has been that the bog is not deep or large enough. With the huge increase in the cost of imported oil bogs in the Ballycastle and Glenamoy area and in the area between that general route and Bellacorick should be developed. The bogs in the area bounded by the three towns, Charlestown in County Mayo, Tubbercurry in County Sligo and Ballaghadereen in County Roscommon should be investigated now because of the increased cost of importing oil.

A lot has been said about labour relations in the ESB but to be fair it must be stated that those relations have improved considerably. The board are at pains to improve them. Others could look to the ESB for guidance in relation to labour relations. I am referring to the big construction sites which suffer a fair amount of labour relations trouble. I am surprised that those in charge of those sites did not ask the ESB, having regard to the experience of the board, for guidance. The ESB has been involved in many major civil engineering construction works, particularly at Turlough Hill, and those sites were relatively free of labour relations problems. It is amazing that the ESB was not consulted on their role in regard to labour relations and on how they were able to carry out projects like Turlough Hill without any loss of working days.

Mr. E. Collins

The Deputy will appreciate that I, as Minister, have no responsibility for labour relations on any site.

Mr. Calleary

I accept that but I was hoping the Minister might pass that information on to those concerns that are experiencing such labour troubles.

Mr. E. Collins

It is not my responsibility.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair would like to state that during the day it has been somewhat tolerant on what, strictly speaking, were transgressions. The Chair's faith in the speaker has not been unfounded in that the speaker moved away with a certain rapidity which allows me to give to Deputy Calleary a slight licence which he is enjoying. I know he will not create a precedent.

Mr. Calleary

I accept the ruling of the Chair but I am anxious to point out that labour relations should be a matter of concern for us all. I agree with a lot of what was said by Deputy Sherlock. The ESB has a monopoly in the provision and installation of current. I have had similar experiences to him in dealings with the board. Because they enjoy a monopoly the board should be at great pains to ensure that the estimates they give to people are proper and they should detail how the estimates are arrived at. I am sure the Minister has come across problems in relation to such estimates. It is strange how bills are presented to people for two or three poles at a cost of between £600 and £800. It is because nobody else can carry out this work that the board should be fair in the preparation of estimates.

I cannot understand some of the delays by the ESB in making connections to houses. I know there seems to be a rule all through the country, that they have plans and that they work in an area and will not deviate from that area except for ordinary repairs no matter how urgent the situation is. But again because they have a monopoly they should take greater care and pay more attention to connections.

The question of subsidies was raised. In the early part of June Deputy Colley, as Minister for Energy, was able to persuade the EEC to bring in a subsidy which will be of great benefit to people in rural areas because they will only have to pay approximately 20 per cent and the EEC and the Government can pay up to 80 per cent between them.

There is very little more that I can say. The operatives and the people who work in Bellacorick feel that they can play a greater part and look forward to playing a greater part in the generation of electricity. It is a station that can be expanded and its capacity increased with very little extra cost. There is a tremendous amount of fuel there. I know that there have been problems. But having said that, and taking into account the tremendous cost involved, I feel that it is much better to spend the money in areas like Bellacorick and in all the other smaller stations to keep people in employment and to increase the employment potential in those areas.

Let me, like the other speakers, offer my sincerest congratulations to the ESB staffs, from the chief executive officer down to the newest recruit, on the tremendous job they have done. Let me also congratulate and thank the various executives who through the years, through their expertise and their dedication, have made the ESB the tremendous force that it is in Irish life today. I also would recommend the Bill to the House and have no hesitation at all in agreeing to it. I hope it gets a speedy passage.

Mr. Callanan

I want to say a few brief words on this Bill. First I want to congratulate the new Minister and wish him well in his job. I would also like to congratulate the outgoing Minister for Energy. No man was more dedicated to his job or did more to study the whole question of energy. This is a subject which we could talk about for a long time but I do not intend to do that because I understand that it has been debated very thoroughly here this evening.

I am very keen — and I know that Deputy Colley was very keen — on the whole question of energy from our bogs and for the ESB to continue to get the utmost amount of energy from our natural resources, the boglands. I hope the Minister will continue this trend and come in with a bog development Bill. I believe the outgoing Minister had this Bill ready to introduce.

There is a lot of talk about solar energy and alternative energy from wind. I come from an area where there is a factory in a small place called Woodford. I would like the Minister to take a look at this. They have done a lot of research on energy from wind and alternative sources of energy. There are 20 or 30 people employed there in a very isolated part of the country and they are doing a good job in research. I understand that in this country for nearly two-thirds of the year we have wind. The only danger with alternative energy from wind is that there are certain periods of the year when there is frost and no wind so that we would have to use other sources of energy. I would like the Minister to go down to Woodford to see what is going on there. His predecessor took a great interest in that development which is taking place in my area.

The main reason I stood up this evening was to remind the Minister of what this company is doing in research and to ask him to have a look at this, to support this company and give it grants to carry out research which is in the interests of the country because otherwise we will be talking about other, maybe dangerous, sources of energy. I will not go into them but I heard Deputy Colley speaking on them this evening. It is to his credit that he did not rush into anything that might be bad for the country as a whole in future years.

Having said that, I believe that the ESB are doing a good job. But it is still very costly to bring electricity to certain isolated areas which still have not got electricity. Everybody should be entitled to electricity. The Minister should — and I believe he will — have a look at the cost. A Bill was brought in three years ago which helped in the really isolated areas but it is still very costly. There are also problems with group water schemes in relation to getting three phase current. It is impossible to get it from the ESB. When people have a group water scheme with pumps operating and they need extra current the ESB should be able to supply it. It is not that easy to get it from the ESB and it is very costly. These are things that the Minister should consider. Like all State-sponsored bodies, and like CIE which was discussed last night, the ESB are providing a service for the people and the funds for it are coming from the public purse so they should be able to provide an even better service. They are certainly providing a good service and I would like to pay tribute to the staff of the ESB.

One of the greatest things to the credit of the outgoing Minister is his efforts in bog development. We have a whole area of natural energy here. I was in on the bog development Bill which the former Minister had in mind and I know what was in it. It would be a terrific substitute for other energy. I would like the Minister to continue along those lines because the amount of employment which would be created by developing these bogs would more than justify expansion along these lines.

Energy is of vital importance. I heard the outgoing Minister stating the cost and suggesting that there might be a link up between this country and other countries whereby when climates are colder in one place than in another energy could be bought or sold. This is the type of thing that the ESB should be looking into. They have done a lot of research. But there is a wide field of research which the ESB must continue to do, particularly in relation to our natural resources for supplying energy. I could go on and on but I do not intend to because I do not believe in long speeches.

In my county there is a company who are doing everything possible to provide alternative energy from wind and I appeal to the Minister to ensure that the necessary grants are paid to them. Grants were paid to them by the previous Minister. The company are carrying out valuable research and I hope the Minister will be as liberal about the payment of grants to them as was the previous Minister. I welcome the Bill and I hope it will have a speedy passage through the House.

Minister of State at the Department of Energy (Mr. E. Collins)

I should like to thank in particular Deputy Colley for his comprehensive contribution to this debate and to thank him also for his kind words of congratulation and good wishes. It would be remiss of me not to say a word of praise for the work of Deputy Colley as Minister for Energy in the establishment and development of the Department of Energy. The staff whom I met are a very good staff and I am confident that the direction in which Deputy Colley was bringing the Department was, by and large, the correct one. I wish to thank him for his involvement in the Department when he was Minister.

This Bill is an interim measure. A comprehensive Bill will be put before the House when the Department have reviewed the financing of the capital expenditure of the ESB.

Deputy Colley raised the question of the result of the ballots from the group of unions involved in the ESB. The proposals put to the unions and considered by them were comprehensive and wide-ranging with wide and possibly beneficial repercussions. I have not yet got the result of the ballots of all the unions and, therefore, it would be unwise of me to make any further statement on the outcome. I am sure Deputy Colley will understand my position and will not press me on this point.

Deputy Colley commented on the historical assumption that the growth in the consumption of electricity could not in future be seen to be a reflection of growth within the economy. It is my view that that would be the case in future. When the Cork-Dublin gas pipeline is installed and is seen to be working fully, a broader look will have to be taken at the relationship between growth in electricity consumption and growth within the economy. It is estimated there will be a drop of 1 per cent in the consumption of electricity in 1981 as compared with the 1980 figure. I believe this is a direct reflection of the negative growth in the GNP. That cannot be denied by any fair-minded person or expert observer. I consider it is a direct reflection of the direction in which the economy has been and is going. We hope the downward trend in the economy will be reversed and that a solid and consistent growth rate will be re-established in the very near future. That growth rate will have a very considerable influence on the number of people employed in industrial and commercial concerns and also on our farms.

Deputy Colley also referred to forward planning and the matter of expenditure. I should like to refer the Deputy to my speech where I made it quite clear that planning is an important aspect of the functions of the ESB. I pointed out the long lead time of eight years or more required for the construction of base load plant. I stated there was flexibility in the plant programme currently approved in respect of the ESB and that that programme envisages an additional capacity of 1435MW towards the end of the decade, about 32 per cent of which is in the form of combustion turbines. This is intended to meet peak demand. I stated that because of the relatively short lead time of about three years, construction can be put back in tandem with any fall off in electricity demand for whatever reason. This is the flexible element in the plant programme. I am sure Deputy Colley realises there is a certain flexibility in the capital expenditure of the ESB that can be pushed forward or held back in accordance with the energy needs of the economy.

I agree that the Department of Energy are well qualified to forecast energy needs and are well equipped from the point of view of manpower and technology to monitor the energy needs of the economy. I will be considering this matter in depth to ensure that the Department are fully staffed and have available the most modern technology and machinery to ensure that information will be available to me at short notice and will be given by well qualified people.

Deputy Colley raised the question of the interconnector and he entered a caveat in relation to the electricity link with Northern Ireland, referring to the Coalition programme. Point 8 of the Industry, Commerce and Energy Programme stated that a gas main will be constructed to transport Kinsale gas from Cork to Dublin and that the 300 MW electricity link with Northern Ireland will be repaired and protected. I take the point made by the Deputy that the interconnector was damaged on the Northern Ireland side of the Border and that the security forces under the control of our Government were not involved in any way with its protection and, therefore, could not be blamed in any way.

In relation to the interconnector between Northern Ireland and the Republic and also the east-west interconnector prospects, negotiations at top official level have recently reached agreed draft report stage. I have not had a full opportunity to examine the report but I understand that there is considerable economic and strategic justification for an east-west link. I am considering the most appropriate next steps to advance the matter. This is true even if, as is my earnest hope, the North-South interconnector is restored and put into operation. This would enormously enhance the continuity and security of supply in both parts of the country and would save consumers millions of pounds. I hope those concerned will appreciate the grave damage they are causing and will desist from interfering with its repair. I look on it as a priority to take whatever steps I can with the relevant electricity authority in Northern Ireland to reach agreement on the repair of the North-South interconnector and on the steps that would have to be taken to ensure its security. There would be great economic benefit for the country and for the ESB in having it repaired and made secure. This will receive my full and urgent attention.

Deputy Colley and others referred to the question of alternative energy sources. I take his point and join with him in saying that the ESB have thrown the great weight they have in expertise behind the number of projects which would not necessarily come under a strict interpretation of the Act under which they work. I thank them for their goodwill and dedication in carrying out experimental works on behalf of the people. The consultancy services of the ESB contribute to their finances.

Biomass is at an experimental stage and I should not like to go beyond saying that the earliest and most practical biomass possibility in Ireland, is trial burnings of forest thinnings and waste sawmill products for firing by ESB stations. I intend pursuing this possibility to the fullest practical extent and to explore more fully its possibilities. I should also like to have an in-depth look at the possibility of short rotation forestry as a high priority in the biomass programme.

The district heating scheme was referred to by Deputy Colley. This is an important experiment. I am confident that it is showing a degree of success and may prove to be fully viable as an economic venture. I share his view that there are other locations where similar type projects could be replicated. I am awaiting results of a survey on this matter which is almost completed and the initiation of suitable projects will be supported by my Department.

One of the major tasks facing my Department relates to the laying of the natural gas pipeline from Cork to Dublin. The tenders for this are being evaluated at present in the Department. It is hoped in the near future to be able to come to a conclusion on this. The tender selected will be put to the Government who will decide to award the contract to whichever company or group of companies are acceptable to them and are technically capable of carrying out the project. It is hoped that wayleave acquisition will proceed speedily through the coming autumn with the goodwill of landowners along the defined routes. I am anxious that the commitment, preparation and tasks, including the conclusion and implementation of a comprehensive works agreement, will be competently advanced at the Dublin city end by the Dublin Gas Company. I should like to state clearly that it is vital to the whole project that the Dublin Gas Company speedily conclude a comprehensive works agreement. This is a sine qua non of their being supplied with natural gas. This is a matter which at present is receiving my urgent attention and because it is at negotiation stage I am sure the House will understand if I make no further comment on it.

The question of extending the natural gas pipeline to Belfast is an interesting prospect. I welcome the statement made recently in the British House of Commons by the Government who had obviously been in consultation with the Northern Ireland authorities. They are pursuing their own study and will continue the discussions carried on over a number of months to try to realise the possibility of an extension of the Kinsale gas supply to Belfast. That statement also indicated that the town gas utilities in Northern Ireland — the principal one would be in Belfast — may defer a closure or a number of closures for a few months pending the outcome of the examination into the possibility of extending the natural gas pipeline to Dublin. This is a welcome development on the British side. I should like to see the natural gas pipeline going to Belfast and being a co-operative project between the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland authorities. It would be a welcome and pleasant task for us to bring the pipeline to Belfast. It would be a project which would be seen as a great co-operative effort between the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland authorities.

The question of dependence on oil was raised by Deputy Colley. The percentage of units generated from different energy sources was as follows: to the year ending March 1980 oil, 64 per cent, peat 16 per cent, gas 11 per cent, hydro 8 per cent, and coal 1 per cent; to the year ending March 1981 the consumption of oil was 55 per cent, peat 16 per cent, gas 20 per cent, hydro 8 per cent, and coal 1 per cent. I referred in my speech to the long-term planning of the ESB generation plant. I said that, towards the end of the eighties, we will have reduced to just over 40 per cent the amount of our generating capacity which is dependent on oil. We are going in the right direction rapidly in the context of what must be seen as a massive investment programme. We will be going from a position of dependence on oil of 64 per cent for generating electricity in the year ending March 1980. By the end of the eighties that dependence on oil will have been reduced to 40 per cent. That shows a commitment on the part of the ESB and the Department of Energy. The whole question is being examined and conclusions are being reached. The ESB are going in the right direction in relation to the use of oil and a further reduction in the use of oil for the generation of electricity.

The question of coal reserves was also raised. The position is not very clear, as Deputy Colley knows. It will take at least two years for the survey of the Leinster coalfields to be completed. At this point I could not take up any position with regard to the development of our coalfields. The Arigna area has been a success. I do not wish to go any further into the extent of viable coal reserves pending the outcome of the survey of the Leinster region.

Deputy Colley mentioned the need to have generating capacity reserves. Obviously he is aware of the need to have spinning reserves equal to the largest electricity generating unit. That will always be the case if we are to ensure a continuous supply of electricity. Deputy Colley referred to the nuclear option. I share his views in that I too have doubts about the question of a nuclear station being built here. I should like to refer to the Government's policy in this regard and in particular to point 5 of the Government's programme which refers to a nuclear power station. Point 5 states that no nuclear power station will be approved as long as any doubts remain about the environmental hazards or waste disposal risks of such a project. The Government's position is quite clearly defined.

Deputy Colley and Deputy Flanagan can be assured that we will take a long hard look at the nuclear option. In the context of the expected growth in the economies not only in Ireland but throughout Europe, a decision on the need for a nuclear station can be put on the long finger. There is no rush whatsoever to make a decision with regard to the establishment of a nuclear station at Carnsore. In any event, this will be a Government decision taken only after a public inquiry and long consideration of the technical problems and the capabilities of such a nuclear station. The decision will be examined at length and in depth by the Department of Energy in consultation with other Departments and scientific bodies who will have an input into such a decision. These examinations will have to be carried out before the Government will take any decision on a nuclear station. I do not expect that there will be any quick move on that front. There are other urgent problems in my Department which await my attention and which will have my attention before the question of the establishment of a nuclear station will be considered and a decision made by the Government.

Debate adjourned.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 9 July 1981.