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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Oct 1981

Vol. 330 No. 5

Finance (No. 2) Bill, 1981: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

(Dublin North-West): When I started my contribution on this I indicated that I had approached the subject of the Finance Bill from two angles, the national position and the effect that it directly has upon my own constituency of Dublin North-West. The Minister said yesterday that he does not have the figures for unemployment in the Dublin North-West constituency. Indications are that this is four times higher than the national average and that our population under the age of 25 years is twice that of the national average. It is with these figures in mind that special attention should be paid to areas where unemployment and age statistics of this kind indicate the total poverty of opportunity in an area. If we are members of such a large organisation as the EEC I would think that, where there are very special areas of deprivation both imposed and of a natural nature, the EEC should be in a position to help finance solutions to this problem.

During Question Time today the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment indicated to me that he was not aware of ill effects from a health point of view, from a social point of view or from a cultural point of view on families with young children living in high rise flats in Ballymun despite the fact that, as I pointed out to him, of the 3,200 high rise flats, over 600 are occupied by single parent families and that there is an annual migration from these flats of 33 per cent of the occupants per year compared with an average throughout the city of 12.5 per cent. This is nothing short of scandalous. It defeats the total aim with which this type of accommodation was initially built. The highest rate of school absenteeism in the Republic of Ireland occurs in the schools which the children of the high rise flats attend in Ballymun and the highest rate of unemployment in the country exists in the Ballymun area. The highest density of infants is in the Ballymun flats area and the highest concentration of people under the age of 16 is in the Ballymun flats area. The highest number of medical card holders, which can be an adverse indication of the social and economic standing of a family, in the Eastern Health Board area is in the Ballymun flats complex.

With these figures in mind I asked the Minister for the Environment to set up an independent inquiry to ascertain the degree to which people, young children and mothers, are adversely affected in Ballymun — not to see whether they are affected or not but to see to what degree they are affected adversely. Every local authority in Europe knows and every meeting of the world health planning authority that I have attended in Europe since I became a member of the local authority in 1974 has, without one exception, condemned the provision of high rise flats for accommodating young families, yet we have persisted here in this House since 1969, when I became a Member of it, in ignoring the fact that a Government Department — the Department of the Environment, formerly the Department of the Local Government — build these flats and hand them over to the corporation.

What I am proposing is that a committee be set up to investigate the possibility of knocking down these flats and having an emergency housing programme in that area so that people can have a proper house to rear their families in. This might be related to the kind of advice given to successive Governments by economists. A place like Ballymun only creates further housing crisis. By definition it encourages people to have children that perhaps they are not ready for, both economically and physically, so that they can obtain transfers from these flats. We know the second most traumatic thing for a child after the death of a parent is a change of address. Yet most of the children who go into these flats will have changed their address at least five times by the time they are seven years of age and will not have settled into school until they are ten years of age. The crowded isolation and the deprivation that can occur in high rise flats throughout Ireland and the United Kingdom have been very well documented in medical papers and the Department of the Environment should be well aware of these documented medical reports. The Department of the Environment should be well aware of these documented medical reports.

This Finance Bill might lean towards the monetarist policy rather than towards the Keynesian policy of economics and certainly not in my opinion towards the most desirable policy, which is one between those two doctrines, the policy of common sense where one can trim one's sail to the wind, where one can change the line of one's tack. As circumstances prevail we should try to keep our economy in as fluid a state as possible where rapid changes of a small nature can be made as often as necessary.

We all know that economists have misdirected Governments in the past. They have also misdirected health boards and other semi-State bodies. They are not accountable to anybody for the mistakes they make with regular monotony and at horrific expense to Governments and semi-State organisations. One great example of that is the McKinsey report on the health services in the UK which cost an astronomical sum. Five years later they were brought back and paid by the British Government to outline where their first advice had been wrong.

The same firm of economists came to this country. They were paid out of the public purse to set up our health boards. Nobody questioned their decisions. What have we got? We have a series of health boards that are so bureaucratic, so cumbersome and so over-elaborate that one county does not know what the other county is doing in those health board areas. I believe these boards will never function at the optimum the local health authorities functioned at although they may be much easier for a Government Department to document and with the semi-autonomy they propose to have they may not present as much of a problem to the Department of Health as was presented by their predecessor, the efficient local health authorities.

The late Professor George O'Brien who was a Member of the Seanad for many years, said that economics was about scarcity. If we look at our country and at our qualities we will see we are the eighteenth richest country in the world. I cannot see, when we are in that position, why we cannot borrow some more. The average man purchasing a house valued at £40,000, if he got his maximum mortgage, will have to pay approximately 25 per cent of his gross income in mortgage repayments but the second year, the third year and fourth year that initial 25 per cent has become approximately 20 per cent, 17 per cent and less. This means that as his years of ownership go on the percentage out of his gross earnings is less and less.

We have tremendous credit-worthy assets. The latest winner of the Nobel prize for economics is a man called James Tobin, who was nominated recently. This prize was won five years ago by Milton Friedman. The present recipient is a disciple and student of John Maynard Keynes who formulated the Keynesian period of economics, a theory I consider it would be wise of the Government to give further attention to. This theory is that the assets, all tangible buildings which a company can have, are taken into consideration and not just plain and simply the amount of hard cash which a company have in the bank, the amount of investments they might have abroad and the amount of money they owe. I would like to quote from The Irish Times of today's date what the Taoiseach stated in Trinity College last night:

The Taoiseach said the combined effects of wasteful patterns of public expenditure and of the loss of competitiveness by the Irish economy had been retarded growth,——

This is obviously a misprint.

——massive unemployment, falling living standards and, tragically, resumed net emigration. However, he pledged that the Government would never fall prey to any economic doctrine which made unemployment the price of progress. "That price is too high to pay and it need not and will not be paid," he declared.

The Milton Friedman doctrine of economics by definition has unemployment as one of its side effects. If this is an indication that the Government will move more liberally and more expansively then I welcome the Taoiseach's statement at Trinity College last night.

During the sixties and the seventies our economy expanded at a rate of about 4 per cent, 3 per cent being sufficient to maintain employment and to provide a small degree of extra employment. However, in the eighties this has dropped. Our inflation rate has gone over 20 per cent. As we have less than a 2 per cent expansion in our economy this year, next year it could be a minus quantity with all the undesirable side effects. Some people say it is possible to spend your way out of trouble. I believe, with our present rate of inflation we will end up in terrible trouble. The building industry could face increases of up to 30 per cent between January 1982 and January 1983. Much of their materials are now imported. The cost of houses will rocket over the next eighteen months. The cost of the materials that go into the building of those houses and the cost of providing labour to build them will escalate to 13 per cent over the next twelve to eighteen months.

It costs £5,000 to produce an industrial job here. If we are considering providing new jobs for people at that cost out of the taxpayers' money, we must also look at the wastage in existing industries which are becoming computerised and in which the micro-chip has made great inroads so far as employment is concerned. While we are providing more jobs on the one hand, on the other hand there is a wastage of trained personnel. We have to gear ourselves to this. It is an inevitable fact of economic life. We should not attempt to be modern Luddites pretending that this is not an inevitable fact of life particularly in the urban areas of the Republic, and we should plan accordingly.

Some policies introduced recently to try to rectify our economy were possibly 30 to 40 years out of date, and made very little allowance for the inflationary type of economics which prevail particularly the further west one goes in Europe. The rate of inflation is higher throughout the Mediterranean and the western and southern parts of Europe. We are not tremendously well equipped. We have a very bad infrastructure. We have possibly the worst roads in Europe and the worst telephone service. We have the hardest planning laws in Europe. We have a very widespread population. We have the youngest population and at the same time the oldest population in Europe. A high percentage of our population is under the age of 25 years, and a high percentage of our population is over the age of 65 years. The taxation burden is carried by those in between, the burden of providing education, health, defence, security and other services. We have not looked after our old people as well as might have been expected. We must improve and strengthen our family circle to enable elderly people to be looked after better at home.

With dismay one reads that public service employment increased by one-third over the past ten years. There has been an increase of approximately 300,000 employees in the public service. The increase in the labour force was 4 per cent in the same ten years. The cost of pay in the public sector is now £1,900 million, which represents 20 per cent of the national output. We have had this massive increase in bureaucracy with no comparable increase in employment in the industrial sector and no improvement in our balance of payments. One becomes very dubious about where this little ship we are sailing on is travelling to and whether it is heading straight for the rocks. The crew and the captain hope for a favourable wind of change. This is not unique to this Government. It has been the case for almost ten years. It is getting worse and worse and getting closer and closer to the sandbar.

In 1979 public service pay was increased by 25 per cent compared with 15 per cent in the private sector. In 1981 public sector pay increased by 34 per cent compared with 18 per cent in the private sector. A combination of public service pay and repayments on Government borrowing abroad account for three-quarters of every £1 paid in income tax. These are some of the disastrous figures before us today.

The number of unemployed is nearly 130,000. When we look at the Finance Bill we must attempt to see the effects it will have upon the working class in Dublin, their housing, their education and their standard of living. It is certain that their standard of living will drop. The standard of living and purchasing power of a husband, wife and three children living in a local authority house and eanrning an average industrial wage of £6,000 a year will drop under this system. There is no doubt about that.

I want to refer to the way in which these people can obtain credit. It has been said that we cannot get any more credit, that it is dangerous to look for more credit. Wage earners have to subsidise their children in university, in third level education, in secondary schools. Generally teenagers have an earning capacity which can be included in the overall picture. We should consider making school fees and university fees tax deductible to ease the strain imposed upon families. Surely the extra expenses we have to meet by virtue of the fact that we are in a state of civil war present us with very logical arguments to present the our partners in the EEC.

Our economy is potentially viable. Until recently it was expanding at a rate of 3 to 4 per cent which helped us to provide our school leavers with gainful employment. Not so long ago one-third of our national revenue was spent on providing security at the Border, on vital installations, and the Army and the Garda. Our farmers now have their backs to the wall and have almost sold their seed corn. We have to export all our products by sea or by air. Surely all these factors represent a special case which we can present to the EEC for assistance in financing our security forces.

If they can finance our fishery protection vessels and provide us with money to buy more corvettes and minesweepers to protect our fishing stock — fish which they like to eat themselves — they can provide us with money, arms or equipment to assist us in securing the Border and our installations, instead of that cost having to be met directly out of taxpayers' money. We made our contribution abroad in a military sense with our brave troops in the battalions that served overseas on many occasions, notably in the Congo, Cyprus and the Lebanon. Surely we deserve some return, some way in which the financial squeeze we are experiencing as a result of the recession can be alleviated. Surely we can seek this type of aid. Surely our EEC partners will not cut our throats or knife us in the back on a common agricultural policy which was never more needed by our farmers. Our security forces never needed greater subsidisation than they do at present.

B & I have gone bankrupt. CIE are in terrible debt and other industries are going rapidly to the wall. Guinness, our single largest employer, taxpayer, purchaser of barley, exporter, announced plans today to lay off nearly half their work force as a result of modernisation. Such people must be re-absorbed into the work force.

If the EEC are prepared to protect our fish I do not see why they cannot help us protect our country and its security in a monetary way. One way we could ensure our security is by the introduction of a national service for school-leavers. Finland, Norway and Sweden have a national service and we do not hear many complaints from those countries of the quality of person ensuing from a year or one-and-a-half year intensive training and discipline, education and conditioning for after-life that national service automatically provides. The Minister should give this proposition careful consideration at Cabinet level. I am sure he would find agreement to such a proposal in the House, when our country and its people would be that much better for its introduction.

The Chair is reluctant to interrupt the Deputy. I do so — as has been done with previous speakers — to say that while all of this matter is relevant peripherally the main thrust of the debate is to the taxation proposals envisaged in the Bill.

(Dublin North-West): I was referring to Part I of the Bill and to the raising of taxes — the increase in taxation on beers, spirits and tobacco products, wines, hydrocarbons, motor vehicles, rates and so on and how I thought this money might be spent best by way of obtaining some return to the Exchequer and, consequently, our people. Much of this money will be spent on our health services, which are possibly the most archaic in Europe. Seventy-five hospitals and institutions exist in the greater Dublin area alone. One has merely to look at the telephone directory to see the massive duplication of hospital facilities obtaining in Dublin city and county. We know the cost of maintaining a hospital, not just physically, but with the appropriate manpower, with porters, kitchen staff, equipment and so on. Indeed the duplication of these facilities renders this type of bureaucracy utterly inefficient. When I came into this House in 1969 the health bill was £45 million whereas now it amounts to approximately £700 million. This illustrates the massive increase in bureaucracy of these health boards and in the over-staffing of the different departments. One area of the civil service where extra recruitment has taken place is in the Department of Health and in the health boards and local authority areas. We warned at the time these health boards were being set up that this would be one of the side effects. Much of the £700 million income tax collected as a result of the provisions of this Bill will go merely to paying ancillary, non-medical staff, who may have received inflated wage increases because of membership of a trade union, to which most doctors and nurses now belong.

There is then the question of the provision of extra money for the Garda Síochána. One has merely to look at the figures for drug convictions, for drug charges, in recent years to see that our society is being totally undermined by its liberal section, those liberal in their attitude to the taking of drugs, in their attitude to self-discipline and indeed to employment. The total number of persons charged amounted to 991. We must ask ourselves how does that compare with the three people charged ten years ago. Nine hundred and ninety one people were charged last year under the Misuse of Drugs Act, 950 of whom were Irish. I shall not read out to the House the number of drugs they were charged with having; it is like a pharmacopoeia. This is where our youth are mis-spending their energies. This is where much of our educational facilities are being undermined, like the example of the massive haul of drugs in UCD recently. Heretofore it occurred only in Trinity or some other university.

I wish the Minister well with his Bill and hope it will raise sufficient money to fulfil his programme. I hope he does not pay too much attention to the amount of money we owe overseas. We have a fairly buoyant economy. We are the 18th richest country in the world and we should not spread panic too far too fast. We have very many assets not documented. I wish the Minister well in his tightening up of the economy but I hope he does not do so at the expense of the employed. The courage with which he has presented this Bill is perhaps second to none in modern times. We hope for a certain amount of relief for the housewife in the budget after Christmas. I hope equally the Minister will give some consideration to the fact that money is not the only thing in life, rather that the quality of life experienced by people can be terribly important. Indeed the most important thing in politics is not just to be a Member of this House, just as the most important thing in a home or family is not the huge wage package coming in each week. The quality of life, of the environment, of schooling and other aspects that help improve our well-being are worthy of equal consideration apart altogether from just having the books balanced.

Somebody referred to long-winded speeches. I can assure the House I shall be brief. I should like to congratulate Deputy Dr. Byrne on an excellent speech. He has said what a lot of sensible people are saying, contrary to what the Minister for Finance has said. He has preached a tale of gloom and doom but, as Deputy Byrne pointed out, we are the eighteenth richest nation in the world. It is very bad to give the impression abroad that we are stony broke but that is what the Minister for Finance has been doing.

Deputy Byrne also mentioned that there were two lines of thought with regard to our situation. One was the attitude of the economists and the other was the viewpoint of the people, and the Deputy stressed the latter. He mentioned also that there was an in-between commonsense approach. That is the approach we should adopt but I am sorry to say the Government are not travelling on that road. This is particularly the case with regard to the Minister for Finance. I have great respect for him and wish him well in his job but I think he panicked with regard to our finances.

When Fine Gael put forward their tax reform programme they said the economy was in a bad way. We pointed out it would cost £500 million or more to implement the programme in one year, but they said there was no problem. I should like to put on record what they said before the election. Fianna Fáil were told on many occasions that their election manifesto of 1977 was extravagant, and personally I thought it was somewhat extravagant. Things went wrong in that we had an oil crisis to deal with, but we implemented our programme. Fine Gael went around my area before the election and said what they would do, but they are not doing what they promised. I shall refer to a few of those promises which are relevant to the discussion before the House.

Fine Gael promised to do many things in the Department of the Environment and they obtained votes as a result of those promises, but they have not implemented them. For instance, they promised that they would provide house improvement grants of £1,000 but they did not say that they would deprive single people of getting a local authority loan. They are giving some grants, and I am glad about this, but they are not giving them across the board. A man in a rural area whose house has bad windows and no roof but has a chimney — and practically every house in the country has a chimney — is not entitled to a grant other than for the provision of a water supply. If he has a water supply and sewerage facilities and if he does not need an extra room to relieve overcrowding he is not entitled to any grant. I contacted the Minister's office regarding house improvement grants and was told an announcement would be made before the resumption of the Dáil. That announcement was made but the scheme is confined and is not available across the board. People were not told about any restriction. Fine Gael told the people before the election that they would make house improvement grants available and they got votes as a result of that promise. I wish to make quite clear that the scheme is limited. The people were deceived.

I asked for leave to raise a question on the adjournment but it was ruled out of order on the grounds that it was dealing with finance. My question related to young single people who are deprived of a loan. Young men of 22 or 23 years are marrying girls of 19 and 20 years but it is not possible to get a loan when the person is under 21 years. The position was clarified here yesterday by the Minister in answer to a supplementary question I put to him. At the moment a young couple must put down both names on the loan application and the person under 21 years will not qualify. I know of one case where the young man was 25 years and his fiancé was 20 years but she is not eligible for a loan. If both young people are working it is highly unlikely that their joint income will be less than £7,000.

If a young couple succeed in getting a loan the title of the site must be in both names. If a father gives a son a site for a house he may not like to put down the girl's name on the title because something might happen and the young couple might not get married. If that happens what is the position with regard to the house? The whole scheme is unworkable and I hope the Minister will realise it. Extra taxation has been imposed and the poorer sections will suffer as a result. It is obvious that a change from direct to indirect taxation will hit the less well-off section to a greater extent. This was done because promises were made at the doorsteps. It will hit thousands of young people. In order to qualify for a loan from a building society it is necessary to have £1,000 or £2,000 on deposit with that society for 12 months beforehand. The Building industry will come to a standstill. I am talking about the situation in rural Ireland. There are many houses in the cities without chimneys but very few in rural Ireland; in fact, as far as I know there is only one house without a chimney in the area between my constituency and Galway. Therefore the reconstruction grant does not apply to every house improvement across the board. The Government have prevented the ordinary person from getting a loan to build a local authority house. I want to emphasise that.

We should borrow a certain amount of money. None of us here is saying that the economy is in great shape. No way. The farming community are in a very serious situation. The main reason for this is inflation. Is not the policy of the Government increasing inflation? They said they would bring down inflation. Inflation is going up. If inflation continues to rise all sections of the community will be affected but particularly the farming section. It is not prices that are killing farmers; it is inflation. The policy that the Government are pursuing will not reduce inflation. I farm 50 acres and I have to pay the bills and I know that the cost of production has gone so high that prices do not count any longer. Eight years ago the price of 10-10-20 per ton was £30. The price today is £200. The Finance Bill will not reduce inflation. No attempt is being made to reduce inflation. We should ask the Government to adopt the commonsense view, as Deputy Dr. Hugh Byrne said. There is a view held even by economists that in a recession such as this when we are in a position to borrow and are the eighteenth richest country in the world we should borrow rather than impose hardships. I warn about one thing that will happen. The change from direct to indirect taxation will hit the poor, the people with big families. Why not borrow? I do not understand why the Government should not borrow. We are dealing with people and it is important that we should borrow at the present moment.

I am very worried about the national wage agreement. There are over 130,000 unemployed. This is a very serious situation. I am worried about democracy. The young people are fed up with the promises made at election time. The parties promised the sun, moon and stars knowing well that they could not deliver except in a limited way. I am probably the oldest Member of the House. I am worried that the young people will forget about democracy and will try some other way unless we as public representatives tell the truth. The truth is not being told. There should be lectures given. We made an attempt to tell the truth. We pointed out that the Government's programme would cost £500 million in one year. Government speakers were saying that that was cod, that that was not so. The Taoiseach could not have had time to look at the books when he stated that things were worse than they had thought. They knew how bad things were. I would ask the people who are supposed to be socialists a straight question which I have asked before and the Minister agreed with me. In giving wage increases do you not think it is immoral to give them on a percentage basis? Why should I or any public representative get a percentage of my salary which represents more than the worker who has one-third of my salary gets? The person with the lower income is entitled to an increase from £8 to £10 and that should be paid across the board to everyone. The cost of living does not go up more on me or on the Minister or the person with £20,000 a year than on the man with £3,000 a year. I have put this to the trade unions. No one seems to have accepted it. I would like serious consideration to be given to that matter. Percentage increases widen the gap between the lower and higher income groups. The Minister at one time said that he was one who agreed on that. I cannot see where the justice is. In my view it is immoral. I have stated time and again that I do not advocate that everybody should be on the same salary. Not at all. The person doing a responsible job should be paid more. I am talking about increases resulting from inflation.

I should like to ask the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs a question. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle may remind me that it is not relevant to the Finance Bill. I have spent a couple of days listening to the debate on the Bill and every item that one could think of has been mentioned. I am trying to be as relevant as possible.

The Chair explains to the Deputy that the Deputy is not precluded from saying anything providing he can relate it to the provisions of the Bill. In that area some are more astute than others.

One could relate practically everything to the Finance Bill because finance is needed for everything. I want to refer to the deplorable state of the telephone service. An exchange was erected by the previous Government in Ballinasloe and it has not been equipped. It is even difficult to get business phones in that area. If there is not the necessary infrastructure there is no use in talking about bringing industries into an area. It is most important that money should be spent on improving the infrastructure. In the west the roads are not great; the telephone service is not great. I would not mind borrowing money in order to improve the infrastructure.

I was on the question of agriculture a few minutes ago. Finance is involved. The area I represent is a disadvantaged area. There is a big difference in the grants available in disadvantaged areas and severely handicapped areas. In a severely handicapped area the grant for ewes is £9.50 for the first 150 and £6 for the next 50. There was a poster outside the polling booth near where I live. It was on a telegraph pole until recently. According to this poster, Fine Gael would pay £10 per ewe whereas Fianna Fáil paid only 92p. The reason that Fianna Fáil paid 92p was that the ewe grant for the lowlands is tied to the price of sheep by EEC regulation. At that time the grant was £7 if the price of sheep was below a certain level, but they were going fairly well and all we could pay was 92p. Fine Gael knew the ewe grant was tied to EEC prices but they said on their posters they were prepared to pay £10. I am paid 75p by Fine Gael, which is less than I got from Fianna Fáil 92p on the £7 grant. These posters are not giving the true facts. The people who ordered that these posters should be put up all over the country knew sheep grants were tied to sheep prices.

Until about three weeks ago these posters could be seen four miles from my home. I was talking to a large farmer and told him he should take down the poster for shame's sake. That poster was not in a severely handicapped area but in the lowlands — Fine Gael will pay £10; Fianna Fáil paid 92p. This is the type of thing I object to because it is unfair.

The electorate are no fools. From now on all politicians should keep as near as possible to the truth because they will be judged on that. Do not forget that we have educated young people and they will look for higher standards from our politicians than they are getting. I would like to see higher standards in high places.

I appeal to the Government, particularly the Minister for Finance who should know better, not to put out this doom and gloom policy. The economy is not great at the moment because we are in a recession. I would not agree with borrowing too much money but Deputy Byrne hit the nail on the head when he said we should use our commonsense. We should not make the social welfare recipients suffer. Again I appeal to the Minister for Social Welfare and the Minister for Finance to pay the prescribed relatives allowance not only to strangers but to relatives who keep old people at home. If old people want to die at home they should be allowed do so. Justice should be done for these old people. This is the third Minister for Social Welfare to whom I am appealing for this allowance.

I want to put these points on the record because when a party is in Government they have to be fairly accurate but when they are no longer in power they have to make promises to get back. I want to discuss the £9.60 allowance which has been promised to the housewife. We told the people in our area that unless the husband was a PAYE taxpayer the wife would not get this money. Small farmers' wives thought they would get it, but of course they will not. I wonder if people on social welfare who had no other income thought they too would get it. I am in favour of paying a wife to stay at home and £9.60 is not very much, but if I were going to give this allowance I would give it to everyone. We pointed out to the people that the £9.60 would come from the husband's tax but still Fine Gael got a large number of votes on the strength of that promise. The Government are very slow to implement it but when they try there will be a great deal of trouble because it will be paid only to the wife of a PAYE taxpayer and not to the small farmers' wife or the wife of a social welfare recipient.

Although I have criticised the house improvement grant because it is not across the board, I welcome all the grants that are available, but they are not what the Fine Gael promised. That is the point I am trying to make. Why promise to do something when they do not have any intention of implementing it? I appeal to the Government in the January budget to forget about the tax package because it is against the ordinary poor people, and there are many very poor people in this country.

My name has been taken in vain during this debate and I am very glad to have an opportunity of replying to some of the points raised. My support for the Finance Bill, the budget and this Government has also been questioned. I am grateful for the opportunity of replying to some of those questions and to make my position known on the Government's financial policy.

I came to this House as a socialist and looked round for allies. There are three socialist Independents in the House and if we had allied ourselves with the Labour Party we could not have formed a Government. Effectively I had two choices: first, to vote with Fianna Fáil and, second, to vote with the Coalition. I took the view that Fianna Fáil had looked for a mandate from the electorate but had been turned down. I interpreted the wishes of the people as a vote for change. The only way I could ensure a change was by supporting the Coalition. That support is not unqualified, it is not uncritical and it is not forever. I believe the new Government are entitled to a fair term in office in which to prove they can provide a better government. My support is on that basis.

While my options in this House are very limited I am not happy with them but I have to exercise them, and I have done so. I accept some drastic action was needed because of the state of our economy. PAYE taxpayers may be sitting ducks in terms of taxation and the PAYE system merely a machine to take money from workers but there is a great difference between taking money from the workers and the workers' asking for a refund. Other people can use all sorts of dodges to avoid taxation. Money was being funnelled out of the country to pay interest charges on huge foreign debts instead of being used productively. This had to be stopped. For me the last budget was certainly very unpalatable medicine, as was the increase in mortgage rates. However, following the philosophy I have accepted, I had to support the budget, although it was unpleasant as a socialist to do so. However, further increases in VAT would be unacceptable to me and would be counter productive since they would lead to higher inflation in direct contravention of the Government's policy to control the cost of living. Increased rates of inflation would be most undesirable and would not induce the trade union movement to settle for a moderate wage increase.

During his speech Deputy Callanan asked me to respond to a point about national wage agreements and percentage increases. He referred to the disparity in the amount of increase received by two people, one earning £300 a week and the other £50 a week. Of course he is right. The percentage increase widens the gap between these two incomes. The only flaw in the Deputy's argument is that Fianna Fáil have been in office for 40 of the past 50 years and have not done anything about national wage agreements. Lower paid workers need more than lip service and, unless there is a radical redistribution of wealth, these disparities will continue and become more pronounced.

Increases in VAT are blunt instruments for raising revenue because they are indiscriminate and hit hardest the lower paid sections. Certain goods, such as books, newspapers and house building materials should be either exempt from VAT or liable to a substantially reduced rate. Other speakers have mentioned the distress of the book trade at present and I am very conscious that hardback books are so expensive as to be almost impossible for most people to purchase, while even paperbacks are going beyond the reach of ordinary people. There is a case to be made for the reduction or elimination of VAT on books and I am available to those engaged in the business if they wish me to make representations to the Minister for Finance.

Houses are becoming dearer because of the increased cost of building land and building materials and ordinary couples are finding that prices are beyond their reach. A reduction in VAT on materials could help ease the situation.

The Government must also examine the changing categories of luxuries and necessities. This is an area in which there is much fluctuation and the Minister for Finance undertook recently to consider the matter.

The banks have taken advantage of all sorts of loopholes to avoid their obligation to pay taxes. I am in favour of taxing them because they could represent a very important source of revenue. I disagree completely with the remarks of Deputy Richie Ryan in this matter because he spoke from the point of view of an adviser to these institutions and not from the point of view of PAYE workers. The banks contribute little or nothing to the State and some are getting more from the State in the form of IDA grants than they are paying in corporation tax. Last year the Bank of Ireland made a profit of over £50 million and they paid less than £5 million in corporation tax. Part of this tax was paid to foreign states. At the same time they received more than £5 million in IDA grants. The exact amount cannot be known for certain because the IDA do not publish amounts given to individual banks. Such information should be made public so that we can know how much each bank receives. The official rate of tax is very low but still the banks do not want to pay it and they are highly skilled tax dodgers. The Government should make a careful study of tax loopholes and close them and the rate of tax on bank profits should be multiplied by six. The first people who should be made tighten their belts are the banks because when the State is in financial difficulties it is unfair to ask the less well-off to make sacrifices.

The conclusions drawn by Deputy Ryan were very much awry in this area. The banks could do much more in the area of job creation and youth employment. The government's programme described the problem of youth unemployment as having reached high proportions and stated that over 30,000 young people under 25 years of age were officially counted as unemployed and that a further 60,000 young men and women would leave full-time education during the summer. The summer has now passed and many of those 60,000 people have not succeeded in obtaining jobs and have little prospect of doing so in the near future. Short-term policies in relation to employment are a help but unless we develop long-term policies there is no future for us. We must aim ultimately at full employment because the right to work is fundamental in any civilised society. Short-term policies could be adopted to help young people to find employment. Those who cannot find work become cynical and disillusioned and there is a large gap between them and politicians. I do not think we are relevant in this area because we pay lip service to them but do very little. Unemployment and peace on this island are the two largest problems facing us a public representatives and unless we find answers to them our future is too disastrous and frightening to contemplate. If we do not have investment in job creation, if we do not devise a crash programme to provide jobs and work experience, we will have further problems that one cannot even begin to contemplate now.

AnCO, the National Manpower Agency, the trade union movement, employers and youth organisations must work together to establish priorities and to monitor Government programmes for youth employment at national and local level. This must be treated with an urgency that heretofore we have not given to it. In the past we solved the problem by emigration which used to be described as a safety value. That has dried up: people now want to work here on this island and we public representatives have an obligation to design policies and frame programmes to tackle this matter.

There must be sacrifices all round. The cliche "Never having it so good" applies to only part of our society. Unless such people are willing to make sacrifices in their incomes and their living standards they must be made to do so by a Government which must design policies and frame programmes that will tackle this problem. We cannot run away from it or shirk it. A decade ago Ted Health, leader of the Tory Party in Britain, coined another cliche about the unacceptable face of capitalism. Irish capitalism has a very unacceptable face today. We cannot allow great wealth, opulence and great poverty to exist side by side. We have this in Ireland. We have people living in mansions, driving very large cars, living high flashy lifestyles, side by side with people who are barely existing. We cannot allow people to enjoy huge incomes and possess large amounts of wealth salted away while other people have not even jobs or houses. That disparity exists here and it must be faced up to. Unless the Government have the courage to do that the problem will not go away. Above all we must have policies to redistribute wealth in our society.

Wise Government financial policies could shape our society for better — in the past policies have shaped society too often for worse. If we are to have a peaceful, progressive society we must have a just and equitable policies, with taxes levied equitably, with all people treated as human beings and not as digits or ciphers in machines. When we are talking about finance we are talking about the people who live in our country, people who need help, people who are suffering. If we are to have a society which we can call a just one, not one which merely pays lip service to the concept of cherishing equally all the children of the nation — a concept that is perhaps too nationalistic for me — we must begin to appreciate that all the children who live here are entitled to the same treatment whether they were born here or not. Unless we seriously decide to cherish all the people living here there can be no future for the country.

Traditionally the Finance Bill has been confined exclusively to the tax measures introduced in the budget. We have tended to introduce a number of Finance Bills each year — this year we have had two — and therefore to lose sight of the purpose of such measures and the extent to which they can influence the day to day management of the economy. I often question the extent to which they exert any real long term influence on economic and social progress, because the more one looks at a succession of Finance Bills the more one realises that the overall pattern does not seem to have changed.

We need a very major change in our whole approach to taxation, to our funding of the public capital programme and to the provision of moneys for job creation. I am not suggesting that this Finance Bill goes a great distance towards achieving these objectives. However, I am optimistic that here we have many concerned politicians who believe that we can provide employment in Ireland for our young growing population. There is an air of pessimism around arising from the prolonged recession which has bitten far deeper and has lasted far longer than many of us thought it would. As a result some people are inclined to throw up their hands in horror and walk away from it. Such people include many concerned individuals in politics.

I do not share that view and, if I did, I would not bother my head about being in politics. As I have said, we have a growing talented population. Our agricultural land is rich in potential. It is enormously rich but massively underutilised. For many years there has been a lot of special pleading about the use being made of and the incomes from that rich valuable, potentially great agricultural land.

Our seas have an enormous potential. Our lakes and rivers have great potential if properly exploited. We still have some reserves of mineral resources. We have potential large reserves of oil which will come on stream in the eighties. Already we have measurable and perhaps far greater gas resources than we originally estimated — we began to take an interest in that area in the early seventies.

Therefore, we have considerable prospects provided we learn how to manage the economy effectively and that we do not succumb to popular political pressures, provided we do not try to cod the electorate, to promise more and more to them on the basis that the electorate would not have to pay a shilling towards it and that they would not have to work harder in order to achieve these things.

As well as the resources I have mentioned, we have a strong industrial arm. We have had it from the late sixties. It has a strong export record which is being sustained even in the middle of a recession. I hope to elaborate on this next Tuesday. I am quite confident that we can provide a high living standard for all our people if we go about it seriously. I am convinced we can eliminate poverty if we are serious and if we face harsh and unpopular choices. There is a substantial degree of poverty which most politicians observe but do not experience.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 3 November 1981.
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