asked the Minister for Finance if he will give details of his programme for the presentation of Estimates to the Dáil as outlined in his July budget.
22.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Presentation of Estimates.
21.
asked the Minister for Finance the specific proposals he has to improve the effectiveness of Deputies in regard to their role in the House; the proposals he has for Dáil reform; and the stages at which these proposals are at present.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to answer Questions Nos. 21 and 22 together.
In my Financial Statement in July I outlined the Government's programme for the reform of financial planning and procedures and indicated my intention to pursue this programme as vigorously as possible. I am glad to state that proposals in this regard are now at a very advanced stage and I hope to be in a position to present proposals for the consideration of the House in the very near future.
The Minister has said that he will have the proposals in the near future but I should like to know if we will have the Estimates before the House during the current Dáil session.
I had hoped that that would be possible. It may not be possible — depending on the day the Dáil goes into recess — to have them discussed here but I am still endeavouring to achieve this. However, as the Deputy will appreciate, it is dependent on Government decisions in regard to expenditure levels for next year. We are all aware how difficult and lengthy discussions can be on a matter like this, but it is still my target to have the Estimates published this year and, if possible, to make some improvement. I recognised at the time, and it was acknowledged by the Leader of the Opposition, that it is very difficult in a space of six months to change the Estimates cycle. The proposals I will be publishing in the near future will deal with what we are proposing to do in respect of 1983, by which time there will be an adequate opportunity to change the Estimate cycle.
I did not realise my own question was being taken. I want to thank the Minister for his reply.
Would the Deputy ask him instead of thanking him.
Deputies such as myself, private Members of the House, are outraged at the total lack of facilities for Members to pursue their responsibilities as legislators. Does the Minister intend to bring forward the proposals which he referred to, and which I congratulate him for referring to in his budget speech, at an early date? Will the Minister give them additional urgency because of the way this has been raised in the House today?
I will be publishing the proposals in the immediate future. Before I answer the Deputy's question, let me say that I would hope that these proposals, while being reserved with regard to the detail, will be able to command support from all sides of the House. I recognise that any major change that has to be made in the House should, as far as possible, be made with a wide measure of agreement within the House.
I will naturally be prepared to make myself available for discussions with various interests to discuss the Government's proposals in depth and, as far as possible, to accommodate the various views that may be expressed.
To come to Deputy Mitchell's question, the proposals that I will be bringing forward in the immediate future will deal solely with the financial procedures which come within my direct responsibility as Minister for Finance. These relate to the presentation of the budget and Estimates and the method whereby these shall be discussed and the format of the documants, the information that they give and the outputs to be achieved and other measures that may be adopted to achieve better control by the house and by the public of public expenditure.
Measures that the Deputy is interested in concern facilities available to Deputies here in the House. While the proposals I will be making will put a greater demand on Deputies' time, they do not in themselves actually propose significant improvements in the facilities at this stage. I recognise that this will require to be worked on by the Government, and the Government are anxious to move in this direction to improve the relevance of the House and its ability to act as a guardian over the nation's finances.
Since the Minister has made references to 1983, has he decided that he may not go ahead this year with having the Estimates discussed before budget time? Has the Minister explored the possibility of putting back the budget day to enable this to be done? In reply to a supplementary question put to him, the Minister said that he would be ready for discussion with any Members of the House about these proposals. I understood that he said earlier that the proposals were being brought before the House and would be discussed in the House. If that is the case what purpose is he serving by meeting Members of the House? Was he referring to the other improvements mentioned by Deputy Mitchell?
I was referring specifically to the proposals in relation to the financial procedures. There is no reason why one should confine oneself to any one method of discussion. There is a place for public discussion here in the House. There is also a place for private discussion between Members of the House and various parties. The fact that I suggested one does not exclude the other. I am quite sure that if the Deputy's party wish to have a discussion on these proposals in the House when they are published, the Government will be only too pleased to accommodate their wishes. My concern is to get the widest measure of acceptance of the proposals and of the need to make changes to improve our control over public finances. That is what I am aiming to do and I am prepared to use any means of consultation available to me to achieve that. I think that is a reasonable approach for me to adopt.
What about the date?
The Deputy asked me about 1982. As I said in response to an earlier question by him, it was recognised on both sides of the House that there would be problems. I indicated that it was my objective to have the Estimates discussed before the end of this year. It is not a question now of my deciding that that should not be done. I am still working towards that objective. But there are many problems on the Government's plate. The process of settling Estimates involves very detailed work. I recollect the previous Government having to take one or two weekends down in Barretstown Castle to do this work. It is extremely time-consuming and the Government have a lot of other things on their plate as well. It would be rash of me to say that they would definitely be available for discussion in this House before it goes into recess for Christmas. But it is my objective to bring them forward as far as possible within the constraints which I referred to. But for 1983 it would be my hope to have a completely new regime in being, and by then there will be no excuse.
It is very difficult——
I have called on Deputy Gay Mitchell.
I very much appreciate the Minister's difficulties. I am pleased with the reply he has given and the innovations he intends to introduce. Would he consider bringing to the attention of his Cabinet colleagues the urgent need for reform? From a document that the Minister introduced I know that he agrees that there is need for reform. Would he agree that such reform should only serve the best interests of the people we represent?
I will.
Do I detect a lessening of the enthusiasm of July? There have been quite a number of excuses trotted out as being the reason for the delay. Can we have an assurance of the Minister's commitment? I accept the Minister's point that it may not be possible to go ahead with this in the current session because it is a major change. But we support the move and are open to discussion on it and I would like to know will the Minister have the Estimates in before budget time if he has not got them before Christmas?
As the Deputy is aware, under present procedures they have to be published seven days before the budget. This is completely inadequate; it is too short a period. There should be a much longer time to discuss the expenditure components of the budget rationally in the House. The Deputy has made a suggestion about the matter which I will bear in mind. Perhaps he might wish to convey that through the whips.