It is proposed to take business in the following order: Nos. 3, 11, 12 (resumed), 13 and 14. By agreement the proceedings on Fourth and Fifth Stages of the Finance (No. 2) Bill, 1981, if not previously concluded, will be brought to a conclusion at 6.40 p.m. today by putting from the Chair the question necessary to bring them to a conclusion and the question to be put from the Chair shall be, as the case may require, that all amendments set down by the Minister for Finance, including any requiring recommittal, and not disposed of, are hereby made to the Bill, and recommittals on Fourth Stage are hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed. If the proceedings on the Finance (No. 2) Bill have not concluded before 6.40 p.m. Private Members' Business will commence immediately on the conclusion of the proceedings of the Finance (No. 2) Bill. Otherwise Private Members' Business will be from 7 p.m. to 8.30 p.m., Item No. 30.
Order of Business.
When does the Taoiseach propose to bring the Criminal Justice Bill before the House?
As soon as this Bill passed through the Seanad the matter was taken up with the Opposition through the Whips with a view to it being taken in this House tomorrow but we have not had agreement from the Opposition on that at this point in time.
The reason the Taoiseach has not got agreement for taking the Bill tomorrow is that the Order of Business for the week has already been settled between the parties and the whip has gone out to our Deputies on the basis of that agreement. Is the Taoiseach aware that we have been circulated with a schedule of the legislation it is hoped to complete in the current session and that no further Finance Bill is included in that schedule? Is it proposed to bring forward another Finance Bill before the end of this session?
Yes, it is proposed to do so but given the time schedule it does not appear possible to get it through the House in the time. The Revenue Commissioners are satisfied that if the Bill is settled and published and they have a clear indication of the basis of the scheme they can take the necessary precautionary measures to prepare for it in advance of the Bill being enacted. In those circumstances and given the pressure of legislation, we do not think it likely that this Bill can get through although it will be published in this session. If the business of the House proceeds more rapidly than seems probable we will be happy to have it through but realistically it seems to me, and the Leader of the Opposition seeing the list of legislation may agree, that it would be difficult to get it through in this session as well.
I presume we are both talking about the Finance Bill to give effect to the proposed transfer of income allowance from husband to wife?
Yes.
Is the Taoiseach informing us that this Bill will only be published and circulated before the end of this session and that it will not be taken? Is this not at variance with the undertaking given many times by both the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance that this legislation would be enacted during this session? Can the Taoiseach inform us whether it is possible that this scheme can be brought into operation next April if the legislation has not been passed through the House this session?
We have been advised that it will be possible to do so if the legislation is prepared and published. The Revenue Commissioners can take the necessary precautionary steps that we contemplated if the Bill was not put through in this session. If it is possible to get it through we will still aim at that but there is a difficulty because of the number of Bills that have to be passed, and if we are satisfied, as we are, by the Revenue Commissioners assurances in this matter then it has not the same priority as it had when it was previously indicated to us that unless it was passed there might be difficulty getting it into effect. It will be brought into effect next April and that is the guiding principle behind the Government's approach in the matter.
When is it proposed to have the Bill circulated to Deputies? Is it necessary, and is it the intention, that the legislation should be passed before next April or is the Taoiseach now saying that the scheme will come into operation next April even though the legislation has not been passed through both Houses?
No, there is no question about that. The scheme could only come into effect if the legislation is passed. The question was whether it was necessary to have it passed or merely published in order for the necessary administrative action to be taken to prepare for its implementation. It is on that issue that the position seems to be somewhat different from what we were originally informed. It would be preferable for the legislation to be put through in this session as a separate Bill to the Finance Bill following the budget. If we can get through the legislative programme we have and deal with this Bill as well I would be much happier. The Bill will be published in early December.
Is the Taoiseach aware that there are some Bills in the schedule of legislation which are not of great importance or significance and could be postponed if there was real anxiety on behalf of the Government to take this third Finance Bill? Is it intended that in the post-Christmas session we will have two Finance Bills, one to give effect to the budget and another to give effect to this transfer proposal?
As regards the legislation I am informed that it is all urgent and requires to be got through before Christmas for a variety of reasons. If the Leader of the Opposition wishes to go into that I would be happy to discuss it with him or deal with any questions subsequently. I do not have the list before me. As we have only recently been advised of the change in position and the feasibility of the measure being brought into effect in April even if not enacted by Christmas the Government have not had the opportunity to take a decision on whether it is to be one or two Bills. The intention as it stands is to produce a Bill dealing with tax reform in this session and to deal with it separately. We could review that and see whether we will do the two together, but for the present that is the procedure we intend to implement. As I said, the Bill will be published in early December.
It seems to Members on this side of the House, and I am sure to many members of the general public, that in these areas this Government do not know whether they are coming or going.
As the Deputy will have seen from the list of legislation, we are going ahead very rapidly indeed with the series of reforming measures. By the time we have them plus the tax reform measure through, very fundamental changes and reforms will have been effected none of which would have happened if the Government had not changed.
Will the Taoiseach accept that it is unusual and, I believe most people would agree, most undersirable that before the details of the legislation are published — we are told now that this legislation will not be published until early December — advertisements are appearing in the public press which are giving rise to certain impressions among the general public with large questions unanswered? Will he accept that from the point of view of the general public the whole situation is very confusing and that this is a most unorthodox and undesirable procedure for the Government to adopt? Will he at least endeavour to convey to us and to the general public the full details of what is proposed in this taxation transfer? If we have to wait to get the full details until the publication of the legislation early in December the general public will be very confused as to what exactly is going to happen and how the scheme is going to work. Is there any way in which the Taoiseach even at this stage could give details of what is going to happen, who is to be included, who is to be excluded and so on?
We have been advised that the advertisements are necessary in order that the new measures will be brought into effect. Unless adequate notice is given — we are advised it should be given at this stage — so that people who would be entitled to the £9.60 per week can apply in time, the administrative processes cannot be completed in time for next April. That is why the advertisements are necessary at this stage. The whole procedure will be carried through and the tax reform, however much the Opposition may regret it, will be through this House and in effect next April.
On a point of order, are we still on Question Time or on the Order of Business?
We are on the Order of Business. It is pertinent to raise matters like that on the Order of Business.
The advertisments which appeared in the public press seems to indicate that the basic rate of income tax will be 25 per cent. All the tables and everything else in the advertisements seem to predicate that the basic rate of income tax will be 25 per cent. Will that be given effect to in this about-to-be-published third Finance Bill of this year or will it be given effect to in the budget and the Finance Bill following the budget?
The measure as published will be self-contained for the purpose of tax reform, setting out the reform in the income tax procedure, although the Deputy will understand that the measures to raise revenue in connection with it — some of them in any event — would be part of the budget and it would not be proper to give them here.
What is the answer?
The Taoiseach has not answered my question. Is the basic rate of income tax next year to be 25 per cent? Has that been decided? That is what is in all the advertisements which have appeared in the public press.
The Deputy should wait until the Bill is published to see the full scheme.
This is fundamentally a serious matter. All the advertisements which appeared in the public press indicated that the basic rate of income tax is not to be 35 per cent but 25 per cent. Has that firm decision been taken by the Government?
That is a matter for the Government. The Bill will come forward in early December, as I have said to the Deputy.
Then we cannot take these advertisements at their face value?
The Leader of the Opposition seems a little perverse on this subject. I have explained to him that the reason the advertisments were issued was to ensure that people would apply for the £9.60 in time because it is necessary that they do so. The Revenue Commissioners do not have available to them the names of people who would be entitled in every case, more particularly because of the extension of the scheme so that it will apply to people in lower income groups who are not paying or liable for income tax at present. For that reason it is necessary to advertise early to get the people to apply. We had to take the advice given to us on that and insert the advertisements accordingly. For the rest, it is a matter for the Bill which will be published in early December.
I accept what the Taoiseach said, that the main purpose of these advertisements is to get the housewives to register for the purpose of the scheme. That is self-evident. I must draw the Taoiseach's attention to the fact that all the tables and all the explanations given in these advertisements indicate a basic income tax rate of 25 per cent. Is the Taoiseach now telling me that that is misleading and that the Government have not yet decided that the basic rate of income tax for next year will be 25 per cent?
I am not misleading the Deputy or making any statement except on the purpose of the advertisement, which I have explained to the Deputy.
I am a new Member of this House and I have some difficulty in understanding some of the convoluted procedures here in the House.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
It strikes me as unfortunate——
Have you a question?
I have. There was a useful and mature debate on the Criminal Justice Bill in the Seanad. It is a great pity that we have this delay now in the continuation of this plot in this House. I ask the Taoiseach to ensure that this matter is dealt with fairly quickly as it is of public concern outside where it is resulting in some idle and useless speculation in the media.
We are very anxious to do that and the opportunity for that would be to take the Bill tomorrow. The Leader of the Opposition has said that the reason for refusing to take it tomorrow is that it was not on the Order of Business as sent out. The difficulty is that we could not put it on that Order of Business properly until it had passed the Seanad. As it was sent out last Thursday, having passed the Seanad at that stage, it could not be on that Order of Business. The following morning as soon as we knew it had passed the Seanad we contacted the Opposition with the proposal that the Bill be taken tomorrow. If I recall correctly the Leader of the Opposition asked me in this House how soon after the Seanad we would take it and I indicated to him immediately. I was disconcerted on proceeding to take it immediately to be told that we could not take it immediately. As the contents of the Bill are well known it seems unreasonable, but I have to tell Deputy Kemmy that that is the position as it stands.
I must say something in this for the benefit of both the Taoiseach and of Deputy Kemmy, who finds himself a little perturbed about procedures. I am a little perturbed about the procedures. It is well settled practice in this House that the Order of Business for a week is settled between the Whips and on the basis of that agreed settlement a whip is sent out to the members of this party and, I presume, to Members of the other parties. Our spokesmen have to prepare themselves for the legislation coming before the House. It is quite unacceptable to us, as it would have been unacceptable to Fine Gael when they were in Opposition, that an arrangement is arrived at by the Whips to settle the business for the coming week, a whip is sent out on that basis and subsequent to that the Government decide to change their mind and take other business. That procedure has never been adopted in this House and it cannot be accepted.
The Deputy impressed on me that the Bill should be taken as soon as it left the Seanad, or at least I understood him to do so. Accordingly, as soon as it so passed we put the matter to the Opposition Whips on Friday with ample notice for any spokesman to get ready to discuss the Bill which has been published and debated fully in the other House. If the Opposition wish to be difficult about it they can be difficult.
The Taoiseach changes his mind from minute to minute.
No. The Leader of the Opposition asked me when we would bring the Bill in. I said we would bring it in as soon as it left the Seanad. We have sought to do so and he has sought to prevent that.
As we gave ample notice of it on Friday there was no difficulty about their spokesmen being ready in those circumstances and it was not at all unreasonable to ask that it be taken tomorrow.
We have to have some procedure.
I raised the subject matter of Question No. 24 of Thursday's Order Paper on the Adjournment and I understand that for obvious reasons it could not be taken. Do I have to raise it in the House again today if I wish to have it taken this evening?
The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.
On the order of business, is it the Taoiseach's intention to give Government time, at the latest next week, to debate the EEC mandate on the review of the budget and the changes contemplated in the common agricultural policy?
I do not have such proposal before me nor would that be normal practice. Normally the Taoiseach reports what has happened to the House after the European Council meeting.
Is the Taoiseach aware of the critical proposals in this review and how they will affect our agriculture and its future? I am sure these proposals are as important, if not of greater importance, than the major public interest mentioned by Deputy Kemmy.
Some public interest.
I am fully aware of what is involved and the House can be assured that the interests of our agriculture and our national interests will be fully protected by the Government in the discussions about to take place.