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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 17 Nov 1981

Vol. 330 No. 12

Finance (No. 2) Bill, 1981: Report and Final Stages.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 3, to delete lines 18 to 28 and in page 4, to delete lines 1 to 5.

This section imposes the duty on beer as a result of the July budget and this is consistent with a case we made here last week. We believe that in this area there is a diminishing return and that the budget is contributing to the CPI figures and their effects on the possible effort to save the national wage agreement or centralised bargaining. I welcome the Government's change of heart which has moved from the damaging 6.5 per cent report I referred to so often. Apparently an air of realism has at last entered Government thinking on pay, pay negotiations and centralised bargaining. I hope this belated effort is successful because it would be far more acceptable than a free-for-all which might create a great deal of industrial chaos. It was an indictment of the Government who did not have the necessary commitment in this area and produced unrealistic figures and possibly encouraged equally frightening figures on the other side. At last they have now shown a sense of reality. Centralised bargaining and a new wage agreement would be welcomed by all.

Last week we heard revenue was increasing and gallonage was increasing less rapidly. As I said, we are reaching the stage of diminishing returns, the budget is contributing to the CPI index and unemployment in the State generally. Therefore I recommend that my amendment be agreed to.

When Deputy Gene Fitzgerald was Minister for Finance he was fully aware of the problems that existed. In his January 1981 budget he imposed a tax of 6p on the pint. If he was concerned about the problems he is listing here today he would not have done that. That puts his proposals in the proper context.

Our proposal is based on a recognition that revenue had to be obtained quickly to fill a yawning and widening gap in the nation's public finances — what was obtained in revenue and what was being spent by the Government when we took over. We had to decide on a range of tax options to get some revenue into the Exchequer to offset, in part at least, the dramatic imbalance that had grown up in the six month period between the January budget and when Fianna Fáil left office. The budget target, which had been set a few months previously, had gone completely out of line.

In making our decision we had a limited choice because in a budget introduced in the middle of a year one is confined to indirect tax measures. It is not possible to introduce changes in the income tax system in the middle of the year. That must be done in the annual budget because it is income which is computed on an annual basis. Therefore we were forced by events to turn to indirect taxes. One of those taxes to which we had to turn was the tax on beer. I readily concede there are problems here. Beer consumption has decreased, not so much because of this budget but because of the two previous Fianna Fáil budgets which imposed taxes of 6p in February 1980 and another 6p in 1981. That obviously causes problems not only for those engaged in the manufacture of this product but it poses problems for the Government because the buoyancy of revenue from this tax is diminished. As I said, I recognise those problems but we were forced by a very serious financial situation to take this action. It would be impossible for us to withdraw this tax at this stage because it would throw our budget out of joint. In this budget we provided money for improvements in social welfare benefits and to maintain services which would have ground to a halt if the previous Government's budgetary dispositions had been allowed to stand. I have no choice but to reject the amendment.

I regret the Minister's rejection of the amendment. His whole theme throughout the debate on this Bill is being maintained. This budget was an over-reaction by the Government. It was a simple plank in the propaganda exercise against Fianna Fáil. Fianna Fáil were their first target and the public service generally was the second. I am glad to see that there has been some easing in the second attack and that is not difficult to understand in view of what we heard in the House today, all the imports into the Department of Finance and elsewhere. I am glad that to some extent the attack on the civil service has been lessened.

Of course the Government are blind to the fact that because of a decision taken by the last Coalition Government in the seventies a census of the population was postponed, depriving two administrations of vital statistics. We were not able to ascertain how many schools were needed, if extra teaching posts were necessary and so on. In rejecting this amendment the Minister is displaying all of the inconsistencies he has imputed to me. I have not denied that the imposition of indirect taxation had become more and more unpleasant, but the Minister may remember his comments early this year about the charges we were imposing. Remembering such comments it is hard to understand how he can reject this amendment. I do not see why the words I have selected should not be deleted.

Question "That the words proposed to be deleted stand" put and agreed to.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 4, to delete lines 6 to 19.

Amendment No. 9 is consequential. Nos. 2 and 9 may be debated together.

This refers to the increasing excise duty on spirits. Whatever may be said about diminishing returns on beer, it is evident that that theory applies particularly to spirits after this budget with the consequential increase in VAT as from 1 September. When on these benches a few months ago, Deputies Bruton, Fitzpatrick and others described the duty on spirits as too high. Those people who then attacked us so strongly have now imposed this huge increase in excise duty on spirits, another over-reaction by the Government which brings us on to diminishing returns. It is another item that will contribute to the CPI increase and that is of tremendous importance.

The Minister knows as well as I what the effect of this will be on the CPI. He knows that by mid-February inflation will have reached 22 per cent plus, and a considerable proportion of that will be due to budgetary actions taken by the Government since they came to office. If the Government had not imposed unnecessary increase on the CPI through this budget the Minister's colleague who is trying to rescue the wages pact might have some hope of success.

I am afraid the argument made by the Deputy here is similar to that made by him in favour of the previous amendment, and inevitably the argument I will make in response will have to have certain similarity with that which I made on the earlier amendment. I will try to avoid repeating myself.

The Deputy should cast his mind back to the budgets of 1980 and 1981 and compare them with this budget which introduced an increase of 2p on the price of a glass of whiskey. That was followed by increases amounting to 7.2p per glass, making the total increase 9.2p, a modest increase by comparison with the last two budgets of the Government in which Deputy Fitzgerald was Minister for Finance. In January 1981, when he was Minister for Finance, he increased the price of whiskey by 12p, 25 per cent greater than the increase I have imposed. In the February budget of 1980 he increased the price of whiskey by 16p a glass, almost twice the increase in the July budget this year.

The previous Minister brought the duty content of the price of a glass of whiskey to more than 54 per cent. This budget, which we have admitted to be a difficult and a hard one in difficult and hard times, brought the duty content of the price of a glass of whiskey to 52.2 per cent. The increases in Deputy Fitzgerald's budgets were a good deal more severe, though they were imposed in relatively easy times economically, which is admitted. I should like to point out to the Deputy opposite that his protestations about the effect of the increase on buoyancy of sales of whiskey ring rather hollow when one bears in mind that during 1980 there had been a decline of 7.3 per cent in the consumption of spirits and yet in full knowledge of that trend in the consumption of spirits he proceeded to impose 12p on a glass of whiskey. The Deputy opposite was claiming at the time that the economy was in good fettle and there was no need for hard measures. He proceeded to have a budget with a substantial current budget deficit which, in fact, was far exceeded in practice during the year, while he remained Minister for Finance up to June.

It is appropriate to recall those facts and to bring them to the Deputy's attention. They put the Deputy's case in some context. I do not see a lot of point in a tit-for-tat discussion across the House. All Ministers for Finance have to introduce tax measures which, if they were in Opposition they would find themselves having to condemn. That is par for the course and I do not think Deputy Fitzgerald is making an original discovery in finding that fact of political life. If the Deputy was on this side of the House and some other members of my party, or myself, was on the Opposition side obviously one would have to go through, as is one's duty as an Opposition, the measure of criticising whatever the Government were doing because it is only through such criticism that improvements can be made in the policies concerned. I accept that but neither of us should try to pretend that we are holier than the other in this type of comparison. I do not think that would be the case.

I recognise the problems there are in regard to the consumption of whiskey and I recognise the problem of diminishing returns. It was, therefore, with great reluctance that the Government decided to introduce the budget containing increases in the price of those products but we did it because we felt we had to get the revenue in order to put the finances of the country on a somewhat better footing than they were when we took office. Unfortunately, the process is not by any means complete. There remains much to be done in the matter of giving Ireland sound public finances upon which we can defend the value of our currency and defend living standards on a predictable and secure basis for our people. We intend to continue with the work we have in hand even though from time to time that may bring with it some unpopularity and worse still, the condemnations of Deputy Fitzgerald.

On the last day I do not think I availed of the opportunity of congratulating the Minister on his appointment or on his recent marriage and I should like to do so now. The Minister made the point that in all budget debates there is a tit-for-tat discussion, that it was remarkable the flexibility one got when one changed sides in the House. I can recall listening to Deputy Bruton when in Opposition lambasting the former Minister for Finance regarding increases in the price of spirits but I suppose that is politics. The point I should like to raise about indirect tax increases is whether they are appropriate at all. We seem to have assumed on all sides that we should keep loading more and more on to indirect taxes. The reasons for this are obvious because it is by far the easiest way to collect money. Officials in the various Departments can tell what a percentage increase, whether it is in VAT or in exise duty, will realise in revenue. Since the purpose of indirect taxation is to collect money it is a ready source for Ministers for Finance to collect revenue. There has been a recent phenomenon in Irish political life in regard to indirect tax increases in that people seem to want less direct taxation so that they can have more money in the pockets to spend in whatever way they wish. We seem to have come to accept that we should give people more control over their own spending. There may be some political benefit in doing that.

Since I became a Member of this House there have been mass street demonstrations by the PAYE sector demanding that the level of direct taxation be reduced. I can recall when Ministers for Finance at budget time thought about increasing the appropriate rate of tax. At one time a 10 per cent surcharge was put on the tax rates from 35 per cent upwards. That surcharge made the 35 per cent rate 38½ per cent and the 45 per cent rate 49½ per cent and so on. However, in recent years pre-budget leaks do not talk of an increase in direct taxation because it is accepted that we must give more to the taxpayer by reducing direct taxation. We seem to have strayed away on both sides, from the idea of ever again increasing direct taxation. If I hold a point of view for a number of years and I do not see it working I do not stick rigidly to it and since everyone has gone down the road advocating less direct taxation and more indirect taxation we should examine the situation to see if we have gone too far down the road of indirect taxation and forgetting to consider direct taxation.

I am sure I will not be popular nor will anybody else, for hinting that there might be an increase in direct taxation but we may have gone too far in one extreme just as we did in regard to direct taxation. Then, we were taking too much out of pay packets. Just as I believe we went too far in regard to direct taxation some years ago I believe we are now going too far in the other direction. It is time we examined this matter. In the context of all indirect taxes I am certain that the law of diminishing returns has been breached not alone in this budget but for the last two years. I am sure that figures will show that the volume of spirits, beer and cigarettes consumed has gone down and it may not be as effective any more for Ministers for Finance to turn to indirect taxation.

A most alarming thing about this return to indirect taxation is that it has a disastrous effect on the consumer price index. I can appreciate why workers want their wages to increase in line with rises in the CPI but the effect that the price of drink has on the CPI is disproportionate. I believe it represents a weighting in the CPI of about 11.1 per cent. It is a reflection on our people that we spend that proportion of our income on drink. If a new household survey is carried out I believe it will show that the percentage of people's income now being spent on drink is decreasing. I do not think it will continue at that level. The consumer of drink has been hit so hard over a number of years he has changed his attitude a little. Nowadays a drink and a box of matches cost £1.

We must examine the effects this increase will have on the CPI. Perhaps the CPI should not include increases in the price of drink. I am not making that case on this Bill. If an increase in the CPI due to an increase in the price of drink means that we will have higher inflation, people will look for more wages. Logically this means we are encouraging people to look for increased wages so that they can drink more. Drinking forms an important part of our society, but it is not all that important. We must ask has the time come to consider taking increases in the price of drink out of the CPI. It is used for everything nowadays. A person drawing up a five-year rent agreement puts in a clause about the proportion to the CPI. We are not getting to grips with inflation. Increases in the price of drink play a more important part in increases in the CPI than increases in the price of meat or food. For those reasons I am against increases in the price of spirits in this section of the Bill.

The Chair does not wish to interrupt the Deputy, but increases in all drink prices are not dealt with in this section. I was allowing the Deputy a certain amount of latitude. I know that the word "drink" encompasses beer, spirits and wines but on this section we are confined to a discussion on beer.

We are on spirits now.

Gabh mo leithscéal. I hope the House will accept that I am not under the influence.

I thought I was getting my drinks mixed.

My point is that we should have a look at the effect indirect tax increases have on the CPI. This imposition may bring in a certain amount of money this year and that is the intention but, looking at the matter realistically, we have reached the point of diminishing returns.

I am disappointed that the Minister has not accepted my amendments. All the arguments I put forward were used by him when he was on these benches. It is not good enough for him to say to me: "You did X percentage and I did Y percentage." I do not believe these increases should be allowed.

Question, "That the words proposed to be deleted stand", put and agreed to.
Amendment declared lost.

Amendment No. 10 is consequential on amendment No. 3 and they may be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 4, to delete lines 20 to 32.

The point has already been made in relation to this amendment.

Question: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand", put and agreed to.
Amendment declared lost.
Amendment No. 4 not moved.

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 5, to delete lines 2 to 22.

We now come to the penal imposition on motorists in this Bill. It is not good enough for the Minister to say X pounds, shillings and pence were imposed in January 1981 or in January 1980. On these benches he and some of his colleagues spoke with vigour, sympathy and compassion about the farmers, the workers and other sections of the community when they said motoring was no longer a luxury. Over the past decade the burden on motorists has been too high. This is an easy way out in a budget which I submit was not necessary. I do not want to go over the old arguments. This imposition on petrol and other oils should not be proceeded with. I appeal to the Minister to put into practice what he was saying in this House in the early months of the year.

I should like to reiterate what Deputy Fitzgerald said. The price of motoring has been increased consistently not only through increases in taxation but through ordinary price rises. Every few months the price of petrol seems to go up. The imposition on people who have to use their cars to go to and from work is too heavy. When the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Ryan, introduced an increase of 15p on a gallon of petrol he said it was to encourage people to walk to work. It is not possible for people in my constituency in Kildare or the Minister's constituency in Meath to walk to and from Dublin.

It was done at one time.

The Minister's colleague, the Minister for Defence, used to recommend that workers in Kildare and Meath who travelled to and from Dublin should get a tax allowance for their motoring costs. Because this section increases the cost of motoring, I would ask the Minister to endeavour to devise some system under which people living in County Kildare who must travel up to 100 miles daily are compensated. As the Minister is aware, there are many people also in County Meath who must make similar journeys. Perhaps some system could be devised under which such people would be allowed travelling expenses to and from work. I am aware of the difficulties the Revenue Commissioners would encounter in endeavouring to frame such a section. Suffice it to say that the present income tax laws preclude a person in employment from claiming the costs of travelling to and from his or her place of employment whereas their neighbour in business may be allowed such costs. It is not as simple as saying that he will always be allowed the cost because of the wording of the PAYE section of the income tax code, schedule E, and under schedule D in regard to self-employed people. However I do not think it should be beyond the competence of the Minister and his officials to devise some way of allowing such people some compensation.

The traditional argument advanced is that such an allowance would be abused. Questions have been raised as to how it could be enforced and so on. Certainly motoring costs constitute a severe imposition on people in my constituency, in that of the Minister and also those living in County Wicklow, who must travel to Dublin daily to their place of employment having a round trip of, say, 100 miles or a minimum round trip of some 40 miles. In the light of this section, which increases the burden on those people further, I would ask the Minister to consider such allowance at a future date and request his Department to devise a system under which these people could be granted some compensation for their motoring costs.

This is another section which increases the indirect taxes, excise duties or whatever one likes to call them, but which in any event increase the costs of motoring. We have arrived at the stage when motoring is no longer a luxury; people use their cars out of necessity. We are now crippling the ordinary person who must travel to and from his place of employment by car. Perhaps the Minister would consider this point when framing his next Finance Bill in an endeavour to relieve his constitutents and mine, which would be much appreciated.

I am afraid the £9.60 one will be even worse.

Having made much of the case made by Deputy McCreevy in the past on behalf of motorists from my constituency and his who must travel considerable distances to and from work I have a lot of sympathy for the case he is making.

I shall deal with the section first and then with the point made by Deputy McCreevy. The increase in the price of petrol as a result of the budget, it would be fair to say, was the one aspect of the budget about which I had the greatest reluctance. I do recognise that for many people there is no choice but to travel to work by car considerable distances at considerable cost or else not work at all. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out earlier in this debate — and I think agreed in part on both sides — first of all the Government had no choice but to turn to indirect taxes in a supplementary budget, because one cannot introduce other taxes in a supplementary budget.

Secondly, we could not have put on more taxes on either drink or cigarettes than we did because we were already in the position of diminishing returns. Therefore we were left with no option but to return to the main residual source of taxation, namely, that on the price of petrol. Had it been possible to introduce other taxes which would have avoided this eventuality and still achieve the relatively modest rectification of our financial position which the budget did achieve, obviously I would have done so, because I did not wish to introduce a substantial increase on the price of petrol. There was no choice whatever but to introduce the tax that was introduced or otherwise face the prospect of not doing anything significant about putting our finances in order. It was in that context that the Government reluctantly had to introduce the measures they did.

Deputy McCreevy made a point about the possible introduction of an allowance against taxation for motoring expenses incurred by employed people going to and from their place of employment. I have a lot of sympathy with this concept because I recognise that employed people are at some disadvantage in that a self-employed person may be able to charge such expenses against his work or business and use some petrol expenses in that context. In fact he may be working from the moment he leaves his home. He may be working at home and legitimately may be able to claim expenses of that sort not open to the employed person to claim to quite the same extent. Obviously this imposes a problem as far as the PAYE person is concerned.

However, I should like to say two things: first of all, any allowance of that sort would be very difficult to administer because there would arise the necessity to have vouching for petrol expenses. Also the attribution of petrol expenses as between journeys to and from work and other journeys which would not be allowable would impose a massive paperwork burden on the Revenue Commissioners who have already more than sufficient such burdens. Secondly, there is the fact that under our present tax system anything like that given in the form of a tax allowance would be essentially regressive in operation because a person with a very high income paying the bulk of his tax at the 60p rate would receive far more benefit from such allowance — because it would be worth 60p in the £ to him — than would somebody with a relatively low income paying in the 35p band, when it would be worth 35p in the £ only to him in terms of an offset against his tax. I know this is an objection which is inherent in the whole concept of tax allowances. The addition of a new tax allowance would merely constitute one further step in aggravation of what is an inherent injustice in the system.

The major purpose of the Government's tax reform programme is to move away from the allowance system to the tax credit system which will not have the same regressive effect. But, as the tax system stands at present, those objections stand against the suggestions made by Deputy McCreevy.

The third point I should make is one that is very obvious indeed, that is, that any tax allowance reduces revenue substantially. Deputy McCreevy I know appreciates that the scope for reducing revenue in present economic circumstances is very limited indeed. I suppose that is an overriding and almost conclusive objection, at present at any rate, to the proposal he is making. I have urged what he has urged in the past. I am sympathetic towards the case and should the opportunity arise I will be more than happy to introduce it, but I cannot see that happening in the immediate future.

I regret the Minister has not seen his way to accepting my amendment.

I want to refer briefly to a few points raised by him when he referred to the tax allowance and the changes he is now introducing by way of tax credits instead of the old tax free allowances as we knew them. I said in the House last week, in anticipation that if he was introducing these advertisements at the weekend we in the House deserved to be told what they would contain in advance of their being publicised, as they were in Sunday's papers. The Minister refused to be drawn in the House. He played his cards very close to his chest. Not only was he unfair to the House but it transpired that the composition of the advertisements published, as was indicated in the House earlier today, seemed to give the impression that certain decisions had been taken by the Government because of assumptions made in those advertisements. The Taoiseach was not forthcoming. He was non-committal in his replies to our leader in the House today.

To say the least of it, the advertisements that appeared since last week are confusing and difficult to understand. I suspect that they will be the subject of debate in this House at some time although now, judging by what we heard on the Order of Business today, not as has been promised by the Minister for Finance when he said that we would have a discussion on this whole new tax system before Christmas. According to the Taoiseach today it will be much later than that. Here is a section which is imposing an indirect tax charge on the CPI and obviously the introduction of any of the commitments of Fine Gael's programme last June will involve considerable transfers to the indirect taxation system with a consequent pushing up of the CPI and a fuelling of inflation. This will have serious repercussions in the economy. As the Minister has refused to accept my motion, I regret that I must put it to the House.

Question: "That the lines proposed to be deleted stand" put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move Amendment No. 6:

In page 5, to delete lines 23 to 30.

This relates to the extra duty on motor vehicles. Coming from a city like Cork where assembly of motor vehicles has been of considerable importance to employment for so long, I believe that the attack on motorists in this budget has been so severe as to have serious effects on employment. I hope the Minister will accept this amendment.

I would like to bring the Minister's attention to something of which he is perhaps aware. That is the fact that for one reason or another the car business has in the past couple of months suffered a serious decline. We are again increasing duty on what is termed a luxury, the tax being at such a high rate. But for the majority of people a car is not a luxury but a necessity. I covered this point before and I do not want to go over it again. With a 50 per cent tax imposition the cost of motoring and the cost of motor vehicles here is higher than anywhere else in Europe due to excise duties and so on. I am afraid there will be a serious downturn in the car industry. Whether it is directly attributable to the increases here or to a number of other factors, I am aware from a number of garages in my constituency and everywhere else that there has been a serious fall off in business in the past couple of months and they do not expect it to pick up again before the end of the year. This may be for seasonal reasons. But again we are killing the goose that lays the golden egg and there may be some lay-offs in the car industry in the next few months.

This is just a re-run of what I said before. The Government did not particularly want to introduce this increased taxation. I find all tax increases difficult to defend because we would like to avoid them all if possible. But I found the increase in petrol to be the one that I was most reluctant to introduce. I would be less reserved about this one because obviously this duty falls more heavily on people who buy big and expensive cars than on people who buy smaller and less expensive cars, whereas the duty on petrol falls more heavily on people who use their cars of necessity whether the car be small or large. I feel that in a sense the duty we are talking about here introduces a relatively progressive element into the taxation of motoring in that it falls more heavily on the larger car.

Deputy McCreevy referred to trends in car sales. It is difficult to interpret these because sometimes the rate of purchases before a budget increases rapidly because people think if they buy before the budget they will get it cheaper than they would get it after the budget. So that does not indicate any underlying increase in the trend of purchases and therefore it is difficult to draw any firm conclusions from the trend in car sales that has occurred this year. But it is worth drawing to the attention of the House that the number of private car registrations has shown a dramatic increase from about 62,000 in 1972 to almost 91,000 in 1980. We have figures up to July and in every month of this year up to July, with the exception of March, more cars were purchased this year than last year. That would seem to indicate an upward trend in car purchases. The overall increase this year over last year in car sales up to July is about 13 per cent. That trend has probably changed somewhat since July, but I do not have the figures for the period subsequent to that.

However, there would seem to be a relatively healthy position in the car sales market. When one bears in mind that the substantial majority of these cars are almost wholly imported, it is not the end of the world when we see some depression as a result of the State getting revenue which it badly needs from the sale of such cars. It may well mean that people will try to use their existing cars for a little bit longer than they would have, and in doing so they will be economising both for themselves and for the economy as a whole in terms of the balance of payments. That is not necessarily a bad thing. In this context I think the imposition of a higher level of excise duty on motor cars in the very difficult set of circumstances which we are faced with was a perfectly defensible and correct measure for the Government to adopt. It is also fair to say that the tax on motor cars is a progressive tax in real terms. People who are on social welfare and on old age pensions or living in poor circumstances rarely buy motor cars. Certainly they rarely buy new motor cars, which is what this tax effects, whereas people who are reasonably well off and have secure jobs and are in the upper income bracket tend to buy cars more frequently. To that extent this is a progressive measure, redistributing to some degree the burden of taxation in our society. It is something which the Government, both on social grounds and on the economic and budgetary grounds which I referred to earlier, can defend heartily.

I have a few comments to make. We are seeing a new style by the Minister for Finance. First there is lack of concern for some of the really important problems that we have here. He refers very lightly to the fact that fewer cars might be sold. Perhaps I am being parochial too. We have a worth-while assemble industry in Cork, our second largest city. It has a tradition going back to 1926. It has given worthwhile employment right through that period, even through the difficult war years, and not only is it a big employer, but allied industries in the immediate area are dependent on it. It is indefensible for a Minister for Finance to say that the imposition of tax on vehicles is of little or no consequence. He also said it was a progressive tax. Perhaps it is but one would gather from what the Minister said that a motor cars is a luxury——

I did not say that; I said a big, new car was a luxury.

I am entitled to interpret what I thought the Minister conveyed to the House. He seemed to say that people in certain sections of our society did not own cars and, because there were others who did, it was a luxury. I do not believe that cars are a luxury. They are essential for workers, farmers, self-employed and all people actively engaged in the ordinary affairs of society. I am disappointed he did not accept the amendment as laid down.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 7:

In page 5, to delete lines 31 to 42, in page 6, to delete lines 1 to 46 and in page 7, to delete lines 1 to 33.

In the reintroduction of car tax, a vendetta was launched against motorists. Since the 1977 election, there were those in the present Government who wanted retribution for the fact that people who got a rebate of car tax had defeated them. Towards that end, they deliberately set out to ensure that, at the very first opportunity, they would take great pleasure in restoring car tax. One remembers Deputy Bruton and Deputy Fitzpatrick in opposition saying how unfair it was that the car registration fee was being increased, what an imposition it was and asking if it was car tax on the way back. Of course it was not but, uppermost in their minds, was the desire to wreak vengeance on a group who they believed had removed them from Government in 1977.

We have gone over this on Committee Stage at some length. The Government felt it was appropriate that this tax should be reintroduced. In 1977, in an election campaign which led the people into a land of unreality, the previous Government promised to do away with motor tax. In so doing, they narrowed our tax base by throwing away a potential source of revenue which up to that had been available to all Governments to assist in the substantial costs of maintaining out roads. In 1977 Fianna Fáil promised they would do away with this tax, notwithstanding the fact that in so doing, they were preventing subsequent Governments from turning to this source of revenue as a means of maintaining the road system, contributing generally towards the revenue of the State, and relieving the burden on tax payers which would be imposed by other taxes which would have to be raised in the absence of motor registration tax.

The new Government, on taking office in June, decided to take action to put our finances right and to reintroduce motor tax. This will bring in much needed revenue and it will also show that the era of unreality, when one could throw away taxes as if they did not matter, has come to an end. Governments can no longer go on trying to outbid one another in promising to do away with this, that and the other tax. We sought, in introducing this measure, to show that this era, which is responsible for the fact that we are in financial difficulty now, is at an end. I hope that will be recognised as being a reasonable and responsible attitude on the part of the Government. It is in the national interest and I make no excuses or apologies for it. I appreciate Deputy Fitzgerald's opposition to it, in view of the fact that it was his party who did away with motor tax. He probably feels perturbed that his handiwork has been undone. It is an understandable and natural reaction but it is not the correct one in the national interest. We simply cannot afford to do away with taxes as happened right through the seventies because, by doing that, not only have we lost revenue but we have created unreal expectations in people's minds as to our ability to pay for the services which the State must provide with a diminished tax base. This budget marks a turning point in the finances of the nation towards reality and making due to provision for the future rather than trying to buy popularity in the present.

This deficit budget was started by the Coalition——

In 1972.

It was continued in far more substantial terms in 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976 and 1977 when the Coalition were in power. The Minister is fully aware of the difficulties which existed in the seventies and of the reasons for such an approach. It is dishonest of him to suggest that the 1977 Fianna Fáil manifesto raised expectations when one compares it with the bonanza offered by Fine Gael in its pre-election programme. The Minister has no idea of what expectations have been raised by the £9.60 promised in the budget. Who is to get this money and how will it be given? How will discrimination and division be avoided? The Minister has no idea of the problems which he has created in that respect. I merely wished to answer the two points advanced by the Minister.

Question "That the lines proposed to be deleted stand" put and agreed to.
Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 8:

In page 9, to delete lines 24 to 26.

This is a short deletion of two lines, but the most important deletion of the whole section because it covers the increase in the rate of VAT from 10 to 15 per cent on the lower rate. All the arguments have been raised for and against this increase, but I still believe that the increase should never have been imposed. Last July I said that the effects of this, commencing in September, would be on-going for some time to come.

The range of commodities and items affected, by short definition standards, exclude luxury goods and essential foodstuffs and clothing but the 10 per cent VAT rating applies to almost everything else. This will affect the farm, the home, the work place, industry, entertainment, services — right across the board. None of the Minister's arguments advanced today change my party's view that that penal imposition should not have been made. I ask why it was the 10 per cent rate which was taken. This was for purely political reasons. The higher rate could not be touched and the income from the 10 per cent rate is enormous. This is a penal imposition on almost every household, concerning items which are for the most part essential.

On Committee Stage, I asked the Minister for the Department's estimate of the total VAT to be collected in 1982 as a result of the increase in the rate from 10 to 15 per cent. Perhaps he will be able to give this information in his reply. I also on Committee Stage asked the Minister to consider on this section giving up the idea of having two rates of VAT, which are now 15 and 25 per cent.

When VAT was originally imposed in 1972 the rates were 5.26 per cent and 16.37 per cent. Subsequently these were increased to 6.75 per cent and 19.5 per cent, then from 10 per cent to 25 per cent, and now the rates are 15 per cent and 25 per cent. When VAT was first introduced arbitrary and subjective decisions had to be taken as to what went into the higher brackets. Over the years I consistently made the point that what were then considered luxuries are now no longer. There are certain items on the 25 per cent VAT rate which were presumably then considered luxuries but which could not today be considered luxuries. I never could understand why we had to stay in the straight-jacket whereby if we increased one rate we increased the other.

The reason why there were originally two rates was that prior to 1972 there was turnover tax and wholesale tax. The 5.26 per cent was the equivalent of the 5 per cent turnover tax and the 16.37 per cent was the equivalent of the 5 per cent turnover tax and the 10 per cent wholesale tax. We have been stuck in this straightjacket ever since. Why should there not be one rate of tax, whatever it might be? Everything else should be put at nought. As the years go on, if the Government of the day need more money and see an item which should have a VAT rate they can include it in the list of items to be taxed.

The enormous bureaucratic cost of implementing these measures is quite unbelievable. The cost to the small business person of keeping sufficient records to make the two monthly return is astronomical. Apart from that the multitudes of officials from Departments checking and reporting to people who report to others are not warranted by the amount collected. The amount collected from 20 small traders with a turnover of under £200,000, in mixed groceries, for example, would not pay the salary of one of these officers. We are putting the cart before the horse. Ordinary business people are demented by this record-keeping and now that we have the rates so near each other — 15 and 25 per cent — there is no longer a case for having two rates. The Minister pointed out on the last occasion that this would be equivalent to one flat rate of 17 per cent. Look at the simplicity of having one VAT rate, the advantages in collecting the money and the advantage to the shopkeepers in simple record-keeping.

In section 12 we have allowed a relief for agricultural contractors in decreasing their VAT rate from 10 per cent to 3 per cent, which I welcome. Finally, again, what is the estimate of the money to be collected in 1982 by virtue of increasing the lower rate from 10 to 15 per cent?

I have already given an indication to the House in my budget statement of the figure involved in this increase for a full year. What Deputy McCreevy asked on the last occasion, and for which I had no reply at the time, was the likely total receipts from VAT——

That is correct.

——for next year, which is a different question. I shall look for the other figure in a moment. It is on the record on a number of occasions in the House.

I am sorry that we are inconveniencing the Minister by asking again for the figure, to refresh our memories.

I am not pleading inconvenience. I am looking for the figure. Deputy McCreevy did ask what would be the likely total of VAT receipts in 1982 from all sources. Our estimate is that that would be something in the region of £850 million at existing tax rates.

At existing tax rates?

That is the assumption on which one always works in giving an estimate for next year. I would not wish that anything whatever should be read into the use of that normal qualification which applies——

The Minister would not suspect me of being suspicious.

——in respect of all estimates of taxation for any purpose. I would suspect the Deputy of legitimate scepticism at all times, but not of being suspicious.

Thank you, Minister.

(Dublin South-Central): Has the Minister considered the figure that an increase of 5 per cent would bring in in 12 months?

Yes, I have. The increase would bring in £28.2 million this year and the total net additional revenue from the increase from 10 to 15 per cent next year will, as I have said on numerous occasions already, be £188.5 million, which is a substantial increase in revenue.

On Committee Stage Deputy Fitzpatrick raised the matter of the application of the increase in the VAT rate from 10 to 15 per cent on goods delivered before 1 September 1981 but not invoiced after that date. This relates to subsection (1) (a) of section 12. In transactions between persons registered for VAT the rate which should appear on an invoice is the rate in force at the time the invoice is issued or ought to have been issued and not the rate in force, if different, at the time the goods are delivered. Therefore if a registered wholesaler delivered goods at the lower rate of VAT before 1 September and properly invoiced them to a registered retailer after that date, the rate of VAT chargeable will be 15 per cent. However, it does not matter that the rate on an invoice may be higher than the rate in force at the time the goods were delivered since the wholesaler recovers the VAT for which he is liable from the customer and the customer, being VAT registered, is entitled to claim in respect of whatever amount of VAT is invoiced.

In transactions between registered and unregistered VAT persons the rate of VAT chargeable is the rate applying at the time at which the goods are delivered. It does not matter whether the goods are invoiced at a time at which the VAT rate is different from the rate in force at the time of delivery.

Deputy McCreevy asked about the new rules governing the first registration of traders. Since this matter relates to section 12, I shall be happy to reply to the Deputy later, thereby remaining relevant.

Deputies opposite have made the case again against the increase in VAT. As I have said so many times before, we had no option but to increase the rates if we were to put the nation's finances back into some sort of shape before the end of 1981. The situation is that expenditure in the first half of this year was totally out of line relative to the trend in revenue that had been predicted in the January budget. Had we failed to take the action we took the current budget deficit which would have transpired by the end of 1981 would have been almost twice the deficit that was predicted in that budget. That was the situation that became obvious not only to us but to the public and to the world financial community when the Exchequer returns for the first half of the year were published. That was on 30 June. We took action immediately on that serious situation and to that end we acted by availing of the relatively limited number of means available to us. These were mainly in the area of indirect taxation. That was why we had to increase VAT in the case in question by a substantial amount, thereby raising a substantial amount of revenue which would contribute largely to putting the finances for 1982 in a much more healthy position than was the case in 1981.

Deputy McCreevy referred also to the desirability of introducing a single VAT rate rather than having the three rates which apply now — the 3 per cent on building and farm contracting and the other two rates of 15 and 25 per cent. I have some sympathy with the Deputy's proposal. There is a lot of force in it. However, it would involve a major reform of the system and that is something that the Government would need time to consider, but we will consider it.

All I wish to say at this stage is that the argument advanced by the Minister regarding the financial situation is purely political. It is not my intention to pursue that line except to point out that the increase in the revenue from VAT to nearly £200 million for 1982 gives some indication of the enormous imposition that has resulted from the increase. This imposition has led, more than anything else in the July budget, to a downturn in activity in many operations in the past month or so. One need only visit a supermarket or any shop or public house to realise the accuracy of what I am saying. This penal imposition will not help anyone in the long run. It was devised to be used in the interests of long-term political gain and because of that I urge strongly that the amendment be accepted.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 80, Níl, 70.

  • Alderman Dublin Bay-Rockall
  • Loftus, Seán D.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joseph.
  • Birmingham, George.
  • Boland, John.
  • Browne, Noel.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Dick.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Byrne, Hugh. (Dublin North-West).
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • D'Arcy, Michael J.
  • Deasy, Martin A.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Donnellan, John F.
  • Dukes, Alan M.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Cavan-Monaghan).
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Fleming, Brian.
  • Glenn, Alice.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McCartin, John J.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • Markey, Bernard.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brein, William.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Ryan, John J.
  • Ryan Richie.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Madeleine.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Tully, James.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Acheson, Carrie.
  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brennan, Seamus.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh. (Wexford).
  • Callanan, John.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Gerard.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Filgate, Eddie.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin South-Central).
  • Fitzsimons, Jim.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harnev, Mary.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Andrews, Niall.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Joyce, Carey.
  • Keegan, Seán.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lemass, Eileen.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Murphy, Ciarán P.
  • Nolan, Tom.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Donoghue, Martin.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael J.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies F. O'Brien and Mervyn Taylor; Níl, Deputies Moore and Ahern.
Question declared carried.

I understand the bells were not ringing in certain parts of the House and I am having the matter investigated. Amendments Nos. 9, 10 and 11 cannot be moved. As they are consequential on amendments already disposed of, they fall.

Agreed to take Fifth Stage now.

Question: "That the Bill do now pass" put and declared carried.

This Bill is certified a Money Bill in accordance with Article 22 of the Constitution.

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