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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 17 Nov 1981

Vol. 330 No. 12

Fóir Teoranta (Amendment) Bill, 1981: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

On the last day I was replying in detail to various points raised by Deputies. Deputy Mervyn Taylor made a point in relation to energy costs in his reference to Clondalkin Paper Mills and to the general question of energy costs as this affects particular industries. Hydrocarbon tax has been reduced by the Government from 7p a gallon to 4½p a gallon and that has made some contribution towards industry and energy costs in this area. Electricity costs are fairly high and these necessarily reflect production costs because we import oil. In reviewing our general industrial strategy, the Government will have to look at energy costs to industry. That point was raised and is a matter worthy of very detailed examination.

Deputy O'Malley made a number of very severe strictures on the individual contributions of companies on the question of State assistance. He was critical of the extent to which individual managers had managed to stave off closures, liquidations and receiverships. He was also critical of the calibre of management and of marketing. I share the severity with which his comments were made in that regard. He made a very valid point. In relation to Fóir Teoranta, Deputy O'Malley made an outstanding contribution during his term in office to this work. He was not a man who went in for soft options in terms of industrial rescue efforts and was not beyond telling companies the truth when that was needed. He raised the question of Fóir Teoranta being left short of necessary resources in 1982. I assure him and other Deputies that there will be no shortage whatever of basic funds for their operations during the next 12 months. That goes without saying. Money will be made available and that being made available by this Bill will be of considerable assistance to the industrial sector.

Participation by the banks in financing Fóir Teoranta's operations was suggested in the report of the Joint Committee. This was a sensible operation. I was a member of that committee and we formulated that approach when we made our report to the House. This has been taken up by the Department of Finance with the company and will prove helpful in the future. I do not have any developments on which to formally report but the proposition was a worthy one and was a unanimous recommendation by all members.

Deputy Burke raised the question of sectoral development committees. There is such a committee in existence. It was a useful innovation arising out of the national understanding. I hope it will continue in existence. It has been warmly supported by the trade union movement and is generally seen as an advance in industrial development. Fóir Teoranta are represented on it and on other consultative committees which have been established for marketing, the electronics industry, the building and construction industry and the beef industry. These are the areas where sectoral work is being done at present with the full support of the Government.

Deputy Fitzgerald raised the question of responsible Ministers. They are the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Energy. There was an area of emphasis raised by Deputy Colley. In 1975 when we were debating a similar Bill he stressed the importance of management expertise. Fóir Teoranta will provide assistance at managerial level where necessary. We debated this at length with senior executives of Fóir Teoranta in the Joint Committee. I recall our report discussing the desirable linkage between Fóir Teoranta and the IMI to ensure that the lessons to be learned are passed on. We made a recommendation in that regard. It is in hands at present. If they need additional management specialists Fóir Teoranta should receive them.

There were a number of questions I expected Deputies to raise. When I was a member of the Joint Committee I raised the fact that there was no trade union representative on the board. That is a singular omission. When the Committee asked what the history of trade union representation was in that regad Fóir Teoranta said they had a trade union representative on the board in the past and found his input very helpful. When one gets down to talking about cases such as that of the Clondalkin Paper Mills it would have been singularly helpful if they had a trade union representative on the board.

The Minister is there now and why does he not do it? He is not in Opposition now.

It would be very helpful.

I do not understand this at all.

It would be helpful if there——

This is a pouring forth of the soul of Minister Desmond. He has the power to do it.

Why is there not a section in the Bill?

We must remind him of this all the time.

I am entitled to my opinion.

That is what he is there for.

(Interruptions.)

He was elected by the Department of Economic Planning and Development and not by the Irish people——

I will now give the earth shattering information which presumably will set the Deputies adrift. Therefore, I intend to recommend to the Minister——

Do the thing and do not mind recommending.

I intend to recommend to the Minister——

You are a Minister.

I think Deputy Burke as a former Minister of State will recall that Ministers of State cannot make appointments to State boards. The Minister of the day has direct responsibility for making appointments.

If the Minister of State would spend a little more time in the Department and less time with Dublin County Council we would be better off.

I have every intention of recommending to the Minister and the Government in my capacity as Minister of State——

Why has he not done it up to now?

——that there should be trade union representation on Fóir Teoranta.

After five months.

Lest my colleagues feel in any way that we have been unduly tardy in that regard I would point out that this report of the Joint Committee which raised the issue quite appropriately was published in April 1981 and I think it has been receiving the attention——

The Bill is before us without the section.

——of the Government.

The Minister knows he is talking nonsense.

If the Deputies restrain themselves we will have plenty of time on Committee Stage.

If the Minister of State would sit down we would have more time on Committee Stage.

In relation to the board themselves, the two directors retire by rotation each year.

The Minister can appoint an extra member or members.

This question, therefore, can be considered next time round.

The Minister of State never thought of it until he stood up only a few minutes ago.

The Minister has made a case. I do not think he understands what it is about.

Deputy Lenihan should appreciate that at present there are no vacancies on the board of Fóir Teoranta.

He can appoint an extra member or members under the section of the Bill.

I intend to make recommendations to the Government and the Minister responsible that such a procedure——

Mañana, mañana agus arís mañana.

The Minister knows we are right.

That is one point that I should clarify and the rather simplistic interventions of my colleagues opposite do not gloss over the fact that for years there has been no trade union representation on the board.

Go and do it now.

It is our intention to consider the recommendation which I am making now. We will leave it like that.

Another aspect raised here——

In the report, not here in the House.

——during the Second Stage debate was the question of an early warning system.

I raised it myself.

Fóir Teoranta in conjunction with various agencies have tried to devise an early warning system to pinpoint firms running into difficulties so that support and corrective action could be mounted at an early stage. I do not think that the system has been entirely effective. We could review it. Originally Fóir Teoranta endeavoured to devise an early warning system in consultation with the Department of Industry and Commerce and that was done jointly with the IDA. In evidence the chairman of Fóir Teoranta told the Joint Committee that the membership of the inter-agency group has now been extended to include representatives of the Department of Labour, the Department of Agriculture and Córas Tráchtála Teo. He went on to say that a fresh approach was now being made to the major banking groups and discussions have taken place already with one of the main groups. Our Joint Committee of both Houses of the Oireachtas said that efforts were being made to improve the early warning system through the extensions of the inter-agency group and by discussions with the banks. In the light of comments made here earlier I intend to ask that these discussions be completed and that a report on the current effectiveness of the early warning system be made. This would be of considerable help. These are the main points I would make in response to the reservations of Deputies on Second Stage of the Bill.

My final comment is that the main reason why companies merge into situations of failure, receivership or liquidation has been commented on by Fóir Teoranta in their reports in 1978 and 1979. They spoke clearly about the poor calibre of management and the bad industrial relations in firms applying for financial assistance. These are two critical aspects. A great deal can be done to improve that situation. I have no doubt that the work of Fóir Teoranta over the years in ensuring that firms do not decline into total bankruptcy has been effective. The record is reasonably good. About two out of every three firms assisted by Fóir Teoranta have either gone back into trading profitably or have survived marginally but have not closed down. It is quite a good record. About one-third have failed despite all efforts over the years since 1972-73. The record generally is quite good and the efforts of Fóir Teoranta should not cloud the fact that the IDA have a major rescue activity in operation. Between 1979 and 1980 alone the IDA put together 59 rescue packages and negotiated 53 takeovers. Grants of nearly £12 million were approved and these will have the effect of maintaining about 4,250 existing jobs.

Sorry, what was the last figure?

Grants of nearly £12 million approved between 1979 and 1980 will have the effect of maintaining 4,250 existing jobs and creating 3,700 new jobs. The picture which we Deputies tend to have of the IDA being totally pre-occupied with new industrial endeavour should be tempered by the fact that at any one time approximately 250 firms are being assisted by the IDA to get over temporary difficulties. It is not just Fóir Teoranta. The IDA are in it as well and the early warning system is a key element in the IDA's rescue activities. The IDA make a major effort in that regard. I want to pay tribute to the work done by the IDA in this area.

I leave it at that. I have tried to summarise as rapidly as possible some of the points raised here on Second Stage because I am grateful to my colleagues on the Opposition benches for their agreement to take all Stages of this Bill today. I would be glad if we could do so by 7 o'clock and I would be glad also to deal with any other points raised during the remainder of the discussion.

Question put and agreed to.
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