asked the Minister for Finance the number of non-established civil servants appointed in his Department since 30 June 1981; and if he will give their names, terms of appointment, duties and rate of remuneration in each case.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Non-Established Civil Servants.
10.
The following are the relevant details in respect of non-established civil servants appointed to my Department since 30 June 1981 other than those (a) appointed as a result of competitions held by the Civil Service Commission (b) arising in the normal course of promotions and (c) appointed to posts listed as scheduled occupations in the first schedule to the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956:
Names—Mr. Peter Prendergast, Special adviser to the Minister for Finance; Mrs. Eileen Grogan, Personal assistant to the Minister for Finance; Miss Deirdre O'Brien, Personal assistant to the Minister of State at the Department of Finance; Mr. James O'Reilly, Personal assistant to the Minister of State at the Department of Finance.
Terms of appointment—Appointments were made under Civil Service Commission excluding orders and will terminate not later than the date on which the present Government cease to hold office.
Duties—The appointees are required to carry out any duties assigned to them by the Minister for Finance or the Ministers of State at the Department of Finance respectively, as appropriate to the position.
Rate of remuneration—The special adviser is paid at assistant secretary salary level. As his appointment is non-pensionable and will terminate on the date on which the Government will cease to hold office, separate arrangements are being made to assist him in meeting the cost of superannuation cover.
The personal assistants are paid at a rate equivalent to the maximum of the clerical officer scale.
Am I correct in thinking that we have been given the figure of remuneration only in respect of one person?
The personal assistants to whom I referred are paid at a rate equivalent to the maximum of the clerical officer scale.
Is the remuneration of the personal adviser equivalent to that of an assistant secretary in the Department of Finance?
It is.
What is the present maximum on that scale?
It is £21,220.
What did the Minister say about additional emoluments in respect of expenses? What normal expenses are available to an adviser of this kind?
The additional emoluments are not in respect of expenses. There is a contribution of 12 per cent of salary towards the cost of superannuation to put the person in question in an equivalent position to an assistant secretary who has other pension arrangements.
Is this 12 per cent payable in addition to the salary of £21,220?
Yes.
We all know that the gentleman appointed formerly held the position of general secretary of Fine Gael and that he was on two occasions a running mate with the present Taoiseach in the same constituency. Will he now operate from the Fine Gael headquarters in Mount Street or from Merrion Street in the course of continuing the Fine Gael election programme?
He will operate entirely from the Department of Finance. He has become a civil servant and will operate within all the disciplines which apply to civil servants.
I wish to ask the Minister about an appointment which I understand to have been made but which was not mentioned in his reply. The Minister for Health referred us to the Minister for Finance in relation to the appointment of Councillor Eithne FitzGerald. Could the Minister say where that appointment exists?
I understand that this appointment was not included in the reply because the person involved has been engaged as a consultant to advise on social aspects of the national plan. This would not come under the heading of non-established civil servants.
I object to any Minister using that as an excuse. Is the Minister saying that certain information regarding a non-established civil servant appointed in his Department since 30 June will not be made available to this House? We know who the person is and when Deputy Woods pursued the matter last week with the Minister for Health he failed to elicit information but was told the reply would come from the Minister for Finance. The Minister is obviously trying to conceal the appointment of a non-established civil servant within his Department.
This person is not a non-established civil servant. She is appointed as a consultant and an answer in respect of her was not sought in this question. If the Deputy had framed his question somewhat better perhaps he would have got the information. I can assure the House that I have no wish to conceal any information in regard to this matter and I immediately answered the question put by Deputy Woods.
The question does not refer to civil servants; it refers to those who are not civil servants. Such people are being drafted into many Departments. Obviously the appointment of a non-established civil servant, which this person is, is being deliberately concealed from this House. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply. I wish to raise this matter on the Adjournment.
The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.
Now that we have dragged from the Minister the fact that Councillor FitzGerald is employed in his Department in a consultancy capacity, could he tell us what fees are involved for this consultancy? Secondly, could he explain how he can square the appointment of the special adviser, Mr. Prendergast, and of this consultant with the declaration made by the Taoiseach in his last Ard-Fheis speech that he would not become involved in "jobs for the boys"? He did, of course, leave out the girls.
It is very important to have available to us people with political and business expertise to assist us in doing our work. It is extremely important that Ministers should be able to keep in touch——
The Minister should give us the figures.
I am answering the second part of the question first. We must keep in touch with outside opinion. They will be concerned with maintaining liaison with business, professional, trade union, farming and other organisations.
Fund raising.
No. They will provide me with advice. The people concerned will not be involved in political activity. I will take all steps to ensure that that is the case in so far as the non-established civil servants are concerned. The case of Mrs. Eithne FitzGerald is a different one. She is not becoming a non-established civil servant and for that reason the initial situation would not apply. This adviser will work approximately two to three days a week and during the engagement will be paid a rate of £55 a day. She will be required to perform any duties that may be assigned to her from time to time by direction of the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Health and Minister for Social Welfare as appropriate to the engagement and, in particular, as I have said, will be concerned with the preparation of the social aspects of the national plan.
How long will the appointment last?
As the question was interpreted as referring to non-established civil servants and not therefore referring to this particular appointment, I am not able to give all the information I would wish in relation to that appointment. I understand that the appointment will be for no longer than the term of the Government at maximum.
(Interruptions.)
Was there a vacancy for assistant secretary in the Department of Finance? Has there been supression of this post now by granting it to the person named by the Minister? Have the Department of the Public Service sanctioned this post either as an existing post or as a new post? Will the Minister explain to the House and to the people what is the difference between a personal assistant and a personal adviser? Is the Minister aware that in cases in the past where there was necessity for personal advisers they were at assistant principal level and never at assistant secretary level?
The last statement by the Deputy is quite untrue. There have been appointments at that level, as he should be aware. If he wishes me to detail appointments previously made by members of his party when in Government, they were appointments at assistant secretary level and I am quite prepared to provide that information for him.
(Interruptions.)
I did not wish to bring this matter into this discussion because I believe it is perfectly legitimate for the previous Government and this Government to appoint people at a high level to give them advice in the very important functions they must perform.
Particularly if they are Fine Gael general secretaries.
The sanction of the Minister for the Public Service was obtained for the appointment in question. There was no suppression of an existing assistant secretary post and this appointment will not interfere in any way with normal promotion within the Department of Finance of established civil servants.
Will Mr. Prendergast continue to have any function within the Fine Gael Party?
No, he will not, and it is absolutely essential that he should not. I wish to make it clear that his appointment will be as a non-established civil servant for the term of his appointment and he will be subject to the disciplines that apply to non-established civil servants which, as the House is aware, preclude political activity.
Will the terms of the appointment of the consultant mean that the person in question must resign local government membership?
No, that is the distinction I was seeking to make. The restriction on political activity applies to people who become non-established civil servants. It applies to Mr. Prendergast and to the other three people mentioned. It does not, however, apply to a person who is appointed as a part-time consultant who does not become a civil servant, either established or non-established.
Is the Minister now taking a U-turn on his policy of embargo on recruitment to the civil service by the appointment of the former secretary of Fine Gael to the post of assistant secretary? If this embargo is now lifted for this particular appointment will it be lifted in other areas that are even more important than this one?
In view of the fact that previous Ministers for Finance have had special advisers, at least one of whom was at the same salary level and assistant secretary rank as Mr. Prendergast has now been appointed to, I am merely filling a post that in effect has been there in the past. I believe that is reasonable. I believe it is essential for the Government to be in a position to do their work with the best possible advice. As I pointed out when this matter was criticised through the public press, it is quite normal in continental countries for Ministers to have special assistants with a political background. I believe the information and the expertise they have obtained in the course of their political activity is useful to them in performing the functions which are to be assigned to them, but as long as they remain civil servants they will not engage in political activity. I intend to ensure that that is the case.
Would the Minister agree that the Department of Finance are the most influential Department in the State, because this Department control the finances of the State? In view of the very central role of the Department in our public administration it must be questionable, so far as the public are concerned, that the chief organiser for the Fine Gael Party is seen to be in a position of very considerable influence in relation to the activities of that Department and the decisions which are made in that Department.
The Minister for Finance has a political background also and nobody sees any particular objection to putting a politician in charge of that Department.
He has to answer to the people.
The appointee in question has to answer to me and I have to answer to this House. There is no difficulty whatever about that.
Question No. 11.
(Interruptions.)
I have allowed a lot of supplementaries. There has almost been a debate on it.
Is the Minister aware that there is disquiet about the appointment of Mr. Prendergast, the appointment of the daughter of the Taoiseach and the daughter of the Minister of State at the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, Miss Harte? How many more sons and daughters of Minister will be appointed in the public service?
The Deputy is misinformed in his reference to the daughter of the Taoiseach. The lady in question is his daughter-in-law who has made her own independent career without reference to the Taoiseach and is perfectly qualified for the post to which she has been appointed.
I did not get a reply to the second part of my question. Does the embargo on recruitment to the public service still operate?
The embargo on recruitment still operates. This appointment has been made, as have the other appointments of special advisers, exceptional to that embargo, because quite clearly the embargo was introduced within a few weeks of the Government coming to office. It was not possible for the Government to decide whom they wished to appoint to all of these posts in the short time available to them between the time they took office and 21 July when the embargo came into operation. It is quite normal in that situation, because of the political transition involved, that appointments of this sort, subject to the consent of the Minister for the Public Service, should be made. I am convinced that this is a correct appointment and that such appointments, so long as the people involved do not directly engage in politics, is a very useful contribution to public administration.
There are two points I wish to make arising from what the Minister has said in relation to this particular appointment and the necessity for advice on political and other matters. Can we take it from that that the Minister no longer takes any advice from the Members of his party or his backbenchers? With the number of those new appointments at the government table and in every Minister's office has it become clear now to the members of the Government that they are incompetent and cannot manage their jobs?
Quite the contrary. The Government recognise that they need to bring in people of talent who can advise them on the extremely acute problems they inherited from the previous Government. If the previous Government had appointed some good economic advisers the country might not be in the mess it now is in.
Could the Minister give the House details of previous similar appointments? Could he give the grade and salary of such appointments?
It would take quite a time to get through all the appointments made by the previous Government.
(Interruptions.)
I am calling on the Minister to answer Question No. 11.
May I ask a final supplementary question?
We have had a debate on this matter.
The Chair allowed 14 supplementaries from the other side.
Will the Minister please reply to Question No.11?
On a point of order, I should like to ask the Minister to have the information circulated.
That is not a point of order. Will the Minister please reply to Question No.11?
The Chair has got through ten questions in one hour. This is the second time that I rose to ask a question. The Chair allowed 15 minutes on one question.
I am sorry. I had decided before the Deputy offered that it was the final supplementary question I would allow. Will the Minister please reply to Question No. 11?