Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Nov 1981

Vol. 330 No. 13

Fire Services Bill, 1981: Committee Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Raphael Burke

Earlier I was discussing the timing of the Bill and when its provisions will be brought into force. I dealt with the history of this legislation which arose from the report of a review of the fire services published in 1975. That report was acted upon by the administration at that time and later by Fianna Fáil between 1977 and 1981. It was a part of a commitment by Fianna Fáil on the introduction of the terms of reference of the Stardust Tribunal in February. There was a commitment then to introduce this legislation in April and that was carried out. There was a commitment with regard to the publication of the amended draft building regulations within six weeks of the setting up of the Stardust Tribunal and that was carried out. There was also a commitment with regard to the setting up of a task force to examine and improve fire prevention activities and assist owners of property in regard to fire prevention, particularly owners of buildings catering for the general public in large numbers. That was also carried out. The Bill was part of the commitment by the Government at the time of the setting up of the Stardust Tribunal. The Second Stage of it was discussed in May and I welcome this opportunity to debate the amendments put down today by the Minister for the Environment. Most of those amendments are of a technical nature but I will be discussing at greater length amendment No. 12 to section 16 which deals with the fire services council, the inquires that are suggested and the operation of the investigations of fires.

I should like to ask the Minister for a commitment that when the Bill passes through the Houses of the Oireachtas and is signed by the President it will be brought into operation. It must be remembered that to bring the various provisions of the Bill into operation will cost a considerable amount of money. In 1977 when the National Coalition introduced their last budget the allocation for the fire services was £694,000 and in this year's Estimate Fianna Fáil provided £2.5 million for those services. That represents a considerable increase. In the period between the general election of 1977 and the change of Government earlier this year 14 new fire stations were constructed and 11 further projects are under construction. A total of 44 new fire appliances were also provided throughout the country. It was a question of continuous progress.

I want to ask the Minister for the Environment to give the House a guarantee that the work undertaken, work envisaged and the expansion of the fire services envisaged within the terms of this Bill — which involves training, fire prevention and all other aspects — will place him in a position to secure from his colleague, the Minister for Finance, and his other colleagues in the Cabinet the necessary finance with which to implement the provisions of the Bill. There is a level of expectation amongst the general public that the fire services generally are to be improved, through reorganisation, as envisaged under the provisions of this Bill. There is expectation of a dramatic improvement. For the sake of the House and the country perhaps the Minister would see his way to giving this guarantee. I can assure him that on this side of the House we will be keeping a very close eye on progress and will be ensuring by means of all the facilities at our disposal, that the provisions of this Bill are implemented once passed. It would be a tragedy were this Bill merely passed and left on the statute book, if the necessary finance were not made available.

The Minister will recall that in April last we introduced a system of subsidisation of local authorities to assist them in the purchase of extra equipment, a 50 per cent subsidisation of the interest rates involved in repayments on equipment, which was of enormous assistance to them. The financial commitments involved in that decision were considerable.

Great work has been done by the fire services throughout the country. This Bill, together with the other measures about which I have spoken, provides an opportunity for what might be described as a great leap forward in the development of our fire services and, in particular, in the development of their fire prevention element. We have all become aware of the absolute necessity for an improvement in the fire prevention element of the fire-fighting tasks. Fire prevention constitutes a key element of this Bill. In the next section there is an amendment in the name of the Minister which talks about "fire hydrant". All of these things are to do with fire prevention. This will necessitate considerable resources both of manpower and finance at Government level.

It will require considerable commitment to financing on the part of the Government with which to implement the fire training facilities of this Bill. It is essential that we get this commitment today during the discussion on Committee Stage, or at least some inkling as to the level of financial commitment of this Government in 1982 when this Bill has been passed.

Minister for the Environment (Mr. P. Barry)

I thank the Deputy for his assurance that he will co-operate in getting this Bill through the House as quickly as possible. As he says, this is a Bill introduced when he was Minister for the Environment.

We are dealing here largely with what might be described as technical amendments. However, there is one amendment of substance, No. 12. I can give the Deputy the guarantee he seeks that this Bill will be made effective immediately it is passed into law and the finance will be there to back it up.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 2.

Mr. P. Barry

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 4, subsection (1), between lines 27 and 28, to insert fire hydrant' includes any hydrant marker-plate, cover or box;".

The purpose of this amendment is to extend the definition of a fire hydrant to include its marker-plate, its cover and the box enclosing it. This means that, for example, under section 31 it will be an offence not only to damage or obstruct a hydrant itself but also the other components, including the marker, which helps firemen to speedily find the hydrant. Other references to hydrants arise in amendments Nos. 9 and 26.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I welcome this amendment. It improves the wording of the Bill and takes me back to the question of finance.

This section dealing with interpretation goes into considerable detail in regard to interpretations of "building", "fire authority", "fire bridge", that included in the present amendment on "fire hydrant", "fire safety", "functional area", "planning authority" and so on. Many of these involve finance. For example, there is considerable pressure within the fire services in the Dublin area — perhaps the Minister would comment on the progress of negotiations with Dublin Fire Brigade on this question — with regard to the fire hydrant. To improve the fire prevention work the staff of the fire services in Dublin Corporation have been pressing for greater freedom, at a time when they are not involved in actual fire fighting, to engage in mapping and acquisition of greater knowledge and awareness of the placings of fire hydrants outside hotels and other public buildings. I heard quoted the case of a recent fire in a hotel on the quays. When the fire brigade arrived it was discovered that some of the hydrants were damaged or at least were not in working order. The danger inherent in a situation like that is self-evident, particularly in a public building such as a hotel. In fact this Bill specifically refers to hotels and places with bedroom accommodation. The provision of finance for this investigatory work and the fire prevention work in which Dublin Corporation want to involve themselves is a key element of this Bill. I shall be interested to hear the Minister's comments on the progress he has made in the negotiations with the fire authorities in Dublin and the staff involved.

Mr. P. Barry

I have already given the Deputy an assurance which I shall repeat now but I do not think it would be helpful to the progress of this Bill if on every section and amendment I have to stand up and give the same assurance. When this Bill goes through the Houses of the Oireachtas and has been signed by the President its provisions will be brought into force immediately and finance provided for them.

The purpose of the amendment with which we are dealing is to ensure that fire hydrant marker-plates are clearly discernible and it will be an offence to obstruct them in any way. But the actual placing of these and the technical aspects of their placement is really a matter for people more competent than Deputy Burke or I to deal with, the actual fire people themselves.

Mr. Raphael Burke

There is not much point in putting down an amendment giving an interpretation of a "fire hydrant", there is not much point in putting a sign on a road or on a corner of a wall showing where the fire hydrant is if, in the event of a fire, a fire brigade arrived only to discover that the fire hydrant indicated was not in working order. The members of Dublin Fire Brigade show a commendable level of concern and commitment to their job when they want to involve themselves in moving out from their stations, involving themselves in the investigation of the operation of these fire hydrants. Further on there is reference to the role of the sanitary authority. Surely it is fundamental that the equipment provided, including hydrants and so on, should be in working order. The Minister has given a commitment as to finance. I am asking him now about the negotiations and where he envisages development taking place.

Mr. P. Barry

The sanitary authorities are the people responsible for the provision and maintenance of hydrants and so forth. While we will be laying down the standards the actual locations and whether these hydrants are in working order will be a matter for the sanitary authorities in the areas concerned.

Mr. Raphael Burke

Surely it is basic to the fighting of a fire that the brigade should know exactly the position of the hydrants in the area in which they are operating and whether these are in working order. What I am asking the Minister is that the fire brigades should be allowed to go out and discover for themselves these basic things. Fire brigades should know exactly where the hydrants are rather than have to search around looking for them. At what stage are the negotiations with the fire authorities on the level of fire prevention rather than fire protection? Surely it is basic that firemen should know where the hydrants are.

Mr. P. Barry

That is not in dispute. Of course it is essential that the personnel should know where hydrants are located but these are matters to be discussed between my Department and the local authorities together with the fire fighting services and these matters are on-going. There is continuing dialogue. There is dialogue now and discussions will continue after this Bill is passed. There will be no finality to that.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I appreciate it is an on-going situation. Surely the Minister has somewhere in his brief or can get from his advisers information on the progress of the present negotiations. I do not have to remind the Minister of the concern about the effectiveness of the fire services. There is a very costly inquiry into the matter at the moment and I would like to hear some comment from the Minister on it. I know it is an on-going situation. I realise the positioning of the hydrants is a matter for the sanitary authority, but would the Minister let us know the state of negotiations with regard to extending the operations of the Dublin Fire Authority and the fire authorities in the rest of the country from the point of view of the request from the firemen that they should be allowed to visit and research the positioning of hydrants, examine buildings, houses and office blocks so that, in the event of a fire, they will be familiar with the building, its equipment and furnishing, the escape routes and the positioning of the hydrants?

An Ceann Comhairle

That would arise under section 31. The functions of the authority arise under section 10. This section defines hydrants.

Mr. Raphael Burke

It does and it also defines authorities and the role of the authorities.

Mr. P. Barry

It would really be a matter more appropriate to Question Time. It is a matter for discussion between the management of the fire services and the authorities concerned. Negotiations are proceeding. They are not finalised. If the Deputy would raise the matter later on, I may be able to get the information for him on the appropriate section.

Mr. Connolly

With regard to markers, many of these are vandalised and have not been replaced and fire brigades have to go round searching for hydrants. Will there be some system of inspection to ensure that these hydrants are kept in proper working order and are clearly marked? For some time now this matter has been a bone of contention between the fire authorities and the local authorities. It may be rather complex but it is something that should be cleared up. Somebody, the fire authority or the local authority, should have the responsibility to see that these hydrants, marker plates and other identifications are looked at, kept in good order and properly marked. I understand that damage can take place but, in lots of cases, they are broken for months and nothing is done. I am not happy with that aspect of it and I think the sole responsibility should lie either with the local authority or the fire authority. I would be glad to hear the Minister's views on this matter.

Mr. P. Barry

It is the responsibility of the fire authority to see that these markers and hydrants are in place and are operating properly. Any deficiency in that regard should be brought to the attention of the county manager who will make it good. I want to thank Deputy Burke and Deputy Connolly for their assurance that they are going to give every co-operation in passing this Bill. When it is passed it will be clearer as to whose responsibility it is and some of the confusing undergrowth which is there at present will be cut away.

Mr. Connolly

Arising from the Minister's reply I am not too happy with the passing of the buck from the fire authority to the local authority. The fire authority should be responsible for maintaining markers and hydrants and to see they are in order. If they are out of order they should have the power to have them repaired. I regret to say it has not been a satisfactory situation in the past. I do not wish to be awkward but there should be overall responsibility in any organisation. I hope arrangements can be made that when defects are noticed the fire authority should have the necessary funds to look after them.

Mr. P. Barry

I am sure the county and city managers will take note of Deputy Connolly's concern in this matter. However, it is their responsibility how they allocate that and I would not dream of interfering with them.

Mr. Raphael Burke

The Bill envisages placing considerable responsibility on the owners of property to make it fireproof. We will be discussing that at greater length when we get to that section. Does the Minister envisage placing legal responsibility on the authorities to make sure that the indication of hydrants is marked in a proper way and that maintenance would not be in a haphazard manner? The Minister has amendments down about the maintenance of fire signs. Is there a responsibility on the local authority or the fire authority to keep the signs and the indication of the position of fire hydrants in a similar manner?

Mr. P. Barry

The local authorities have power and can prosecute.

Mr. Raphael Burke

Prosecute themselves?

Mr. P. Barry

The local authorities have the obligation to see these identification marks are kept up to standard.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. P. Barry

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 4, subsection (1), after line 28, to insert —"`flammable' includes combustible;".

Mr. Raphael Burke

Flammability of furniture, furnishings or equipment on premises is an area of great concern. In the publicised recent tragedies which we have had, without in any way prejudging the reports of tribunals, etc. evidence has been given of furniture in public areas being of a highly flammable nature. Evidence has also been given and accusations made about the type of wall coverings in premises being of a dangerous nature. Section 37 of the Bill proposes to give power to the Minister to make regulations for precautions to be taken in public premises for the protection of persons and property against fire. Has the Minister made progress with regard to deciding upon the specifications and regulations he is going to set down with regard to prohibiting the presence or use in premises of these furnishings or other materials or equipment which could create a fire hazard which, unfortunately, has been the cause of so many tragedies?

Mr. P. Barry

I accept it is necessary to set down standards. The IIRS are at present looking into this and I hope to receive a report from them within the next couple of months.

Mr. Connolly

Where new buildings are erected would the planning authority have the right to specify what type of materials should be used there? They generally refer the application to the chief fire officer of the area. At present the danger lies in buildings which are built for many years. These buildings should be looked at and, before we left office, the then Minister for the Environment asked local authorities to have checks and inspections carried out on all buildings where people congregate for social gatherings. Exits should be properly located and emergency lighting should be in order. I am not happy that in all cases emergency lighting is functioning properly. Where a new building is being erected I am led to believe — I am open to correction — that where planning applications have to be applied for under the law, in a general way the planning authority refer that to the chief fire officer of the area and he then gives his views. In addition, he can examine a building in the course of construction in order to find out whether the regulations are being complied with. In the final analysis the insurance company concerned before issuing a certificate satisfy themselves that the fire officer requirements are implemented.

Mr. P. Barry

Standards can be laid down under this Bill for the older buildings. I thank the Deputies for their co-operation in putting the Bill through quickly. The actual structures as distinct from furnishings can be catered for under the building regulations included in the planning permission.

Mr. Raphael Burke

There has been considerable concern about the continuing use of polyurethane foam seating in so many lounges and hotels. In 1980 a standard was set for the manufacture and sale of furniture in the context of the use of this material but that related only to domestic use. The provision has not been extended so far to the commercial side. The longer the delay in extending the regulations to the commercial side the greater is the danger of further tragedy in places of public resort. The Minister has told us that he is waiting on advice from the IIRS. That is all very well, but surely there are standards available from other sources either within the UK or within other member states of the EEC. I appeal to the Minister to take advantage of whatever existing standards are available in respect of the use of these materials and then, if the IIRS produce higher standards, the regulations can be tightened further. In the meantime some improvement is needed. These foams are used to a large extent in such places as hotels, lounge bars and restaurants as are various types of plastic coverings.

Mr. P. Barry

There is much sense in what the Deputy says but I can assure him that to my personal knowledge fire officers in Cork are visiting all places of entertainment and laying down standards on the spot in respect of materials already in use. In the event of non-compliance with their directions, premises are closed down. That is the sensible approach to adopt until such time as the IIRS produce set standards.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I am delighted to hear that, but I would remind the Minister that not so very many months ago when his party were in Opposition I was criticised by them, and by others outside also, for directing the fire authorities to visit hotels, restaurants, nightclubs and so on for the purpose of investigating the situation in regard to fire regulations and with having premises closed when standards were not complied with. I was told that there was no power on the Statute Book to take that action. Therefore, I am glad that the Minister has set the record straight this evening. I compliment him on continuing the work I started but which met with a barrage of criticism from the then Opposition.

Mr. Connolly

I agree with Deputy Burke that when we introduced a similar Bill to deal with this matter we suffered a good deal of criticism from the then Opposition.

Mr. P. Barry

The Bill was welcomed by Fine Gael. We may have criticised it in detail but not in principle.

Mr. Connolly

We were accused of bringing in measures that would result in premises being closed. However, it is time we had proper standards in regard to the materials used in seating in public places. Some of the foam being used is dangerous. Instead of going on fire it smoulders and emits fumes that can be lethal.

Mr. P. Barry

All sides of the House share the concern in this area. Regarding what Deputy Burke has said about being criticised on the basis that what he was doing would result in premises being closed, I did not mean a fire officer turning a key in a door in any premises. I was referring to the use of the ordinary power of the law in this situation.

Mr. Raphael Burke

But the Minister admitted that the power is not there.

Mr. P. Barry

Of course the power is available through the courts. The Deputy cannot dispute what the law provides.

Mr. Raphael Burke

What I am saying is on the record of the House.

Mr. P. Barry

The Deputy's memory is defective.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. P. Barry

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 5, subsection (1), between lines 4 and 5, to insert—

owner' includes any person having any estate or interest in premises;".

This is a drafting amendment which proposes to define "owner" and to include a person with an interest in the premises or having an estate in the premises, that is the person having the freehold or leasehold of a premises.

Mr. Connolly

In regard to a freehold this could be the owner or his agent. There are agents in respect of some properties though there may be managers to look after such premises. I should like some clarification in this regard. Is the Minister happy that the wording will be satisfactory, because in some cases properties may be managed on the basis of a fee to the manager?

Mr. P. Barry

In that case he will probably have a lease and he will be covered under the definition.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 2, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 3.

Question proposed: "That section 3 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Raphael Burke

With regard to the regulations under the Bill and the implementation of this section with regard to sets of standards, improvement in the quality of building materials and the implementation of the draft building regulations, when does the Minister intend to bring in the legislation to give statutory effect to the draft building regulations which at this stage are operated on a voluntary basis but as if they had statutory backing to them? Will the legislation be of a self-regulatory type? It is basic to the Bill that the building regulations, the Bill and the standards under the Bill go hand in hand.

Mr. P. Barry

That is really a matter for the Order of Business at 10.30 in the morning. The legislation will be brought in as quickly as possible. I hope it will be possible to bring it in before Christmas, but there is a lot of legislation to be dealt with.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I accept that there is quite a lot of legislation which has to be discussed, but this legislation has been promised for the last few months.

Mr. P. Barry

I hope it will be circulated before Christmas.

Mr. Raphael Burke

Will it be self-regulatory type of legislation?

Mr. P. Barry

The Deputy had better wait to see the legislation. We are discussing one Bill now and it is hardly fair to ask me to deal with another Bill at this stage. It is fairly pointless to do that when the Bill is not introduced.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I do not accept that it is pointless when we consider that the Fire Services Bill is involved with standards, setting down specifications and so forth and a lot of this is covered in the building regulations. The type of materials to be used in buildings is involved in fire prevention. I do not expect the Minister to go into a full debate with me in relation to what is included in his proposed legislation, but I ask him to bring forward this Bill before Christmas and let us see it. When his party were in Opposition they were very vocal on this. I would like to see the Bill because it goes hand in glove with the Fire Services Bill we are now discussing.

Mr. P. Barry

I will certainly bear in mind what the Deputy says.

Mr. Raphael Burke

It is one thing to keep it in mind. I appeal to the Minister to let us have some indication of the method of regulation to be used. I am asking this in a general way and I am not asking for specifics. What type of regulatory powers does the Minister intend to put into the Bill? Will it be regulated by the local authorities or will the regulations be self-regulatory organised through the architects and engineers?

Mr. P. Barry

If we want to discuss the Building Regulations Bill, by all means let us postpone the discussion until the Bill is introduced. It would be most improper for me to give the details of a Bill before the Bill is actually introduced. I already said I was very grateful to Deputy Burke and Deputy Connolly for facilitating me in getting this very important Bill through the House. I am very impressed by the way they have been fulfilling their obligations in that regard, but we should get on with the business of discussing this Bill.

Mr. Raphael Burke

That type of response to what I feel is a fairly elementry question——

Mr. P. Barry

When we are discussing one Bill the Deputy wants me to give details about another Bill it is proposed to bring in.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I am not asking for details, I am only asking for an indication of the thoughts of the Minister on this matter. If he has not given it consideration or has not decided on the system to be used, let him say that he has not decided on the system and I will accept it.

Mr. P. Barry

I will not say anything about it because Deputy Kemmy and other Deputies who are not here are entitled to the information at the same time as Deputy Burke. It would be most unfair of me to give the information to one Deputy and not to all Deputies.

Mr. Raphael Burke

All right. I want to come back to the orders and regulations to be laid before the House. Will this involve laying before the House all the regulations in regard to the flammability of materials and the type of furnishings that can be used? Am I to take it that that is the situation?

Mr. P. Barry

Is the Deputy asking if each one of them will be laid before the House?

Mr. Raphael Burke

Yes. Will each individual one be laid before the House?

Mr. P. Barry

Yes. In practice, they may come together in a group.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I am afraid that within the administrative machinery when a particular standard is ready on the type of foam to be used — I hope no foam will be used in furnishing — this may be held back because there are three or four more regulations in the pipeline. I am asking the Minister to ensure that standards are prepared as fast as possible and come forward as quickly as possible as each one is ready rather than holding on to them for a time.

Mr. P. Barry

I am very conscious of the necessity to do this. I will certainly fulfill what the Deputy desires in this matter.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 4.

Mr. P. Barry

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 6, line 2, before "of this Act" to insert "of Part III".

This amendment deals with a drafting point and simply makes it clear that all the requirements, the contravention of which constitutes an offence, are contained in Part III, sections 18 to 31. The only other offence which arises is a contravention of fire safety regulations made under section 37 and regulations are mentioned separately in this section.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 4, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 5.

Question proposed: "That section 5 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Raphael Burke

With regard to the question of penalties I know there is considerable reluctance to talk of penalties which can be imposed retrospectively. The Minister's former Minister of State indicated that the Minister's amendment to section 16 was to be used retrospectively to deal with investigation into incidents that had taken place in the past. What is the situation with regard to the imposition of penalties in relation to owners of property where fires have taken place? I understand those types of incidents will be looked into under the investigation aspect of section 16.

Mr. P. Barry

It could not be retrospective. We could not possibly do that under this Bill.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I welcome this section and I am glad the Minister has left it as I originally had it drafted. This is a key element of the Bill for those who do not take into account the danger they can create for others in regard to the proper maintenance of their buildings. It sets out the types of penalties involved. I am glad the Minister has left it as I introduced it. The penalties are stiff, as they should be for anyone who is so uncaring and irresponsible as to set the lives of others at risk.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 6 to 8, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 9.

Question proposed: "That section 9 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Raphael Burke

We come to the nub of the Bill, namely, the whole question of fire authorities and the reorganisation of the fire services throughout the country. The Bill revolves around this section. It gives belated legislative force to the recommendations of the review of the fire services in 1975.

It is important that the commitment made by the Minister in response to questions I asked him on section I regarding the availability of funds be honoured. The need for the reorganisation of the fire services is self-evident in a country that has seen such industrial development taking place in the last number of years. Some idea of the scale of that industrial development can be got from the recently published report of CTT, which showed that in 1971 exports were valued at approximately £400 million whereas in 1981 the figure was nearly £4,800 million. Hand-in-hand with that industrial development there has been progress with regard to hospitals, schools and national development generally. The fire services have not kept pace with this level of development. Unfortunately it has taken some major tragedies to concentrate the minds of all political parties — I do not wish to cast stones at anyone on this point — on the need for rapid development of the fire services. Section 9 sets out the structure for improvement of the fire services and I am glad the Minister has not made any alterations in this regard. For the record I should like him to clarify that in the setting up of fire authorities and in the development of the fire services finance will not be a stumbling block.

Pending the passing of the legislation, I should like to know if any discussions have taken place with the various local authorities involved with a view to speedy implementation of the major reorganisation referred to in section 9.

Mr. Kemmy

This Bill should be above party politics. I agree with Deputy Burke that this section is the kernel of the Bill. I am not here to stop the Bill going through the House. In my view it is an enlightened Bill and I will give the Minister whatever support I can.

However, I should like to point out to the Minister that there is a lack of co-ordination in the various Departments concerned with building standards and designs. I have said elsewhere that there should be greater co-ordination between the IDA, the IIRS, the local authorities and the Minister's Department to ensure that the right materials are used in the building of houses and public buildings in particular. I should like the Minister to use his offices to ensure that there is such co-ordination in future.

Better standards of design and building materials are necessary. Deputy Burke spoke of shoddy and cheap materials being used, and I agree with him. People who are out to get rich quickly often cut corners. Some of the planning boards and departments at local government level have been lacking in their duty to inspect premises; in many cases they have turned a blind eye to what has been happening.

There is also need for greater co-ordination between the planning department of local authorities, the section dealing with fire services and the section dealing with water supply. Sometimes there is not even a joint committee of local authority sections dealing with water supply and the fire service. They are two separate branches but there should be a joint committee of the two branches. That would ensure that fire hydrants are not vandalised and are kept in good order.

I should like to refer also to the role of chief fire officers. Sometimes these officers are curtailed and hamstrung by petty restrictions. Their advice and recommendations are not passed on to public representatives in this House or at local level. Sometimes they are filtered through city engineers and do not reach public representatives and sometimes they are censored. I should like to see the role of the chief fire officer upgraded and given more status in society. In the aftermath of the Stardust tragedy fire officers must be allowed to do their duty unhampered by petty restrictions.

There is a case to be made for better training facilities for firemen and officers. There should be a central school for such training. That matter has not received attention in the past. We thought firemen could be trained by exposing them to fires and that they would learn more or less by trial and error. That day is long gone. We can learn much from the experience in other countries——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am reluctant to interrupt the Deputy but on Committee Stage he must relate his comments to what is in the section. Section 9 refers to the appointment of certain authorities. Training and other matters are dealt with in other sections.

Mr. Kemmy

I was relating this to what Deputy Burke said about building materials coming on the market and the fire officers not knowing how volatile they were when exposed to fire. Last Sunday statements were made in the Sunday Tribune regarding the fire services and some disquieting allegations were made. I hope the Minister will deal with that in his reply. This is the central part of the Bill and I have put forward these points now as I may not get an opportunity of dealing with them later.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The convenience of the Deputy is not always provided for. As far as the Chair is concerned any comments made must refer to the section we are discussing. At present that is section 9.

Mr. Kemmy

I prefaced my remarks by saying this was the most important part of the Bill. We have lived in hope for too long. The Minister should address himself to the real problems on the ground.

Mr. Connolly

I hope there will be better co-operation between the fire officers and county councils. In some counties relations have not been the best. This goes back over many years. I hope whatever little differences there are will be resolved. When the Bill passes I hope there will not be any arguments among fire officers, managers and county engineers but that they will get down and do the job and do it well.

Mr. P. Barry

This is a sensitive subject and, as Deputy Connolly said, the differences go back over many years. Deputy O'Brien as Minister of State made a deep study of the problem and interviewed everyone involved in it. He set that out with recommendations in a memorandum which he sent out to all concerned and asked for observations. We have not received all the observations yet.

Everyone knows the problem and how difficult it is to solve. Deputy O'Brien made a big effort at trying to solve the problem and I hope that the talks he had with the various bodies will lead to a solution. As Deputy Burke said this is the central section of the Bill. It gives statutory foundation to what was the position as regards fire authorities up to now. In that sense it is not as Deputy Kemmy seemed to infer a reorganisation of the fire services. It recognises in law what was happening anyway.

Mr. Raphael Burke

The matter of reporting relationships between fire officers and chief fire officers has been discussed and the Minister said that discussions had taken place with interested parties and certain recommendations had been made. In the recommendations I hope that the very important role of the second officer is recognised. This is the non-degree man who has come up through the ranks and is the backbone of the fire fighting service. I hope the promotion opportunities which are so rightly his will be made available.

Much has been written and spoken about this matter. There have been many television and radio discussions and statements from interested parties. Were the proposals that have been made for the solution to this problem discussed with the Minister's chief fire adviser? Is the chief fire adviser in agreement with the line being taken and with the recommendations that have been made? Has the Minister the support of his chief fire adviser on this issue?

Mr. P. Barry

I do not think it would be helpful to say any more on this matter. As the Deputy and every Minister for the Environment over the last five years knows, this situation is sensitive and delicate and should not be probed too deeply.

Mr. Raphael Burke

We may not probe it too deeply but it is central to the Bill. There is no point in passing legislation if having done so we find ourselves stuck in the industrial relations quagmire that has for so long bedevilled the operations of the fire service. At the time of the discussion of the terms of reference of the Stardust Tribunal and the questions that were asked at Question Time dealing with the fire service, it was the view then, and I assume still is, of the Minister's party that the situation with regard to reporting relationships and the position of chief fire officers in relation to engineers and second officers would be resolved. I appreciate the Minister's concern for the sensitivity of this matter. However I cannot but say that the sensitivity was not exactly recognised by his colleagues when sitting on this side of the House.

When discussing the organisation of the fire authority it is impossible not to mention staffing. What is the Minister's view with regard to the future staffing of these authorities? Is it to be done by chief fire officers? What is the role of the fire officer or second officer? What is the role of the fire prevention element of the fire authority? Who is to handle that situation? What is the position with regard to the Minister's own chief fire officer?

I recall last February great political play being made by the then spokesman on the Environment on behalf of the Minister's own party, the spokesman on behalf of the Labour Party and others who, when fire matters were being discussed at the time of the setting up of the tribunal, questioned my sincerity in the matter on the basis that the chief fire officer was not sitting at my right hand to give me the full benefit of his knowledge. I notice today that the Minister has quite an excellent staff of advisers with him and I do not comment in any derogatory manner on their competence. I know them to be excellent men. I know them to be the architects of this legislation, but I notice also the absence from the Minister's right hand of his chief fire officer, a matter which was of such deep concern to the spokesman for his party on the Environment at the time of the setting up of the Stardust Tribunal. I can understand if the man is ill or tied up in some discussions with chief fire officers around the country or something like that, but I wonder at the absence of this chief fire adviser.

Mr. P. Barry

I have nothing further to add to what I said earlier. The difference between the position now and six months ago is that there are problems before the parties at the moment which were not there then.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I have asked the Minister to elaborate somewhat in relation to the proposals before the parties concerned. In particular I would like him to confirm for me, without going into the detail, if promotional opportunities are being offered and provided for personnel holding the position of second fire officer and the position of ordinary fireman, a phrase which does not describe adequately these excellent personnel. Are additional opportunities and on-the-job training opportunities being provided for this excellent body of men in the proposals that the Minister has made?

Mr. P. Barry

I have nothing further to add.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Burke will appreciate that while the Chair will accept that his interest in discussing the section dealing with authorities and in discovering the chain of command and the promotional opportunities would be regarded by the Chair as perfectly relevant, if the Minister is not disposed towards commenting the matter must end at that.

Mr. Raphael Burke

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I do not want to disagree with you, and on the track record I am in no position to disagree with the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. P. Barry

Then agree with him.

Mr. R. Burke

I do not want to disagree with you that it is the end of the matter. I find it extraordinary that we are being asked to pass here a section setting up fire authorities which states that each of the following authorities shall be a fire authority: a council of a county, the corporation of a county borough, the Corporation of Dun Laoghaire and so on. We can be told that staffing is a matter for the fire authority when they are set up and that it is an internal matter. Will the Minister inform the House as to his proposals with regard to staffing, line of command, overall command and promotional opportunities to be offered to existing fire staff, and the position with regard to the existing proposals that have been laid out and sent to the representative bodies, the unions and the professional bodies concerned and if they have the full unequivocal support of his chief fire adviser?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Burke will appreciate that what I said earlier was that I accept entirely the correctness of the presentation of his comments on the section but the Chair could not require the Minister or anybody to make comment if he were not so disposed.

Mr. P. Barry

To comment on your comment, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, while I am not for a moment disputing your ruling, this section is concerned with the structuring of the fire brigades. The management of them is under other Acts.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair accepted the comment by Deputy Burke, as I explained. This section as the Chair sees it deals with the assignment of authority to certain authorities, in which case the Chair took it as a reasonable inquiry to ascertain the chain of command within that authority or the promotional opportunities for people working within it.

Mr. P. Barry

I bow to your ruling.

Mr. Raphael Burke

Does the Minister still refuse to answer?

Mr. P. Barry

It is not a question of my refusing to answer, as I have explained a number of times. This is a very sensitive area which has eluded solution by various Ministers in charge of this Department for a great number of years. A very comprehensive document has gone to everybody involved in this. It would be unhelpful and may be damaging to the chance of success in this area if we were to start debating the various proposals here.

Mr. Raphael Burke

This sense of responsibility that we are now hearing from the Minister prompts me to refer him to the Official Report of Tuesday, 24 March 1981, column 2023, volume 327, when this very question with regard to chief fire officer posts was the subject of a question by the present Minister for Education, then spokesman for the Environment. The question asked the Minister for the Environment:

if he will state in respect of each of the six vacant posts of chief fire officer as per his reply to Parliamentary Question No. 440 of 10 March 1981 the date on which each post became vacant.

We proceeded then into quite a lengthy number of supplementaries and contributions about the vacancies from the present Minister for Defence who came in on it. As a matter of fact, the present Taoiseach came in, as I see his name here also. The level of sensitivity that I am now being asked to show on this matter was sadly lacking at the time of that and other Question Times to which I could refer and in debates on the setting up of the tribunal after that terrible tragedy at the Stardust which we all regret so deeply. I appreciate that negotiations have taken place and that proposals have gone forward. I am asking the Minister if his fire adviser, a man who was talked about at length by the Minister's party when in opposition, is in full agreement with the proposals that have been set out in the recommendations made, and where is he today that he is not doing his chief fire advising to the Minister in the debate taking place here on Committee Stage of the Bill, a matter which seemed to bother the Opposition at that time. The absence of the chief fire adviser was a subject of considerable agitation to the present Minister for Education.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I remind the Deputy that while I conceded the correctness of his earlier inquiries, reference to officials present in the Officials Gallery are out of order.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I accept your ruling, but it was not enforced when I was in office. I would be grateful for an answer about the promotional prospects of the second officers who are entitled to such opportunities. They should be protected under this Bill and I would like a general assurance that their position will be preserved.

Mr. P. Barry

We have been over this ground before. The difference between the position today and that which existed six months ago is that there is a document for discussion now before interested bodies and I do not intend to try to influence their decisions by commenting here.

Mr. Connolly

This is the main section of the Bill and deals with authority. Personnel also comes under this section. There has been a bone of contention between county managers, county engineers and chief fire officers. What will be their promotional prospects. What will be the position when vacancies, by way of retirements, occur? Will they be affected by the embargo on recruitment? This is a very relevant question which many people are asked, and which is causing some chief officers a great deal of difficulty. Will the embargo affect promotions? I do not wish to discuss the differences between managers, the county engineers and the fire officers but I am interested in the personnel aspects. Will vacancies be filled? Everybody will admit that additional personnel will have to be recruited if we are to carry out these regulations.

Mr. P. Barry

The embargo does not aply to any vacancies which exist. Indeed, they are in the process of being filled——

Mr. Raphael Burke

A few weeks ago I asked questions about the Tallaght fire station. Tallaght is a new town with a large population and a fire station has been badly needed for many years. The Minister said staff would be available but it would not mean an increase in staff numbers of Dublin Corporation but that vacancies would be filled from within their existing staff numbers. That indicates staff in other areas would have to be let go to man the fire station. Is that different from what the Minister has just said? What is the position about extra staff? Can extra staff be employed by the corporation, in addition to existing staff numbers?

Mr. P. Barry

The Tallaght personnel are at present being recruited. I do not have all the necessary information at hand, but if the Deputy wishes to put down a question I will give him the information.

Mr. Raphael Burke

The Minister might give the information when we discuss Committee Stage another day.

Mr. P. Barry

If the Deputy wishes, I will tell him what I can recall, I said the posts could be filled within the total corporation structure. That does not mean letting people go because Dublin Corporation employ about 9,000 people. There is a certain amount of natural wastage there and if the corporation wish to fill the Tallaght posts from existing staff they are entitled to do so. They are filling the Tallaght post at the moment and——

Mr. Raphael Burke

The Minister is saying that no additional staff will be recruited to man additional fire stations but that they will be manned by existing manpower, in other words, no additional appointments will be approved.

Mr. P. Barry

Staff are being recruited for the Tallaght fire station. I want to make it clear what is involved here. On 21 July the Minister for Finance made a statement in the House about recruitment to the public service. He said that barring unforseen circumstances, no extra staff would be recruited.

If extra people are to be recruited to the public service they must be paid. They can be paid from only one of two sources — increased taxation or increased borrowing. Fianna Fáil spent the last two days voting against increased taxation in the Finance Bill, and I presume that, after four years, the message has got through about borrowing for current expenditure.

Mr. Connolly

The Minister is dealing with matters relating to the Finance Bill and they are not relevant to this discussion. I do not wish to get involved in that but I should like to remind the Minister that at the end of the year the figures will show that there was no need for the July budget. The population in many towns in my constituency, centres such as Portlaoise, Edenderry, Birr and Tullamore — a town that is recognised as the most rapidly expanding centre in the midlands — is expanding and there is no doubt that additional fire-fighting personnel will be required. There is no doubt that to implement properly the provisions of the Bill, inspect premises and see that fire regulations are complied with in places where the public gather, additional personnel will have to be employed. Is the Minister saying that as a result of the embargo imposed by the Minister for Finance extra personnel will not be brought in except for existing replacements? In other words, if a chief fire officer retires he will be replaced but if additional firemen or other personnel are required they will not be taken on. That is my interpretation of the Minister's reply and I should like to know if that is correct.

Mr. P. Barry

If a special case is made for a service like the fire service it will be considered. In fact, a special case was made for the fire service earlier. I have no doubt that the fire service will be looked after.

Mr. Connolly

The question of a special case leads up to a very grey area. Will the Minister define a special case?

Mr. P. Barry

I did not mean a special individual case of one person. I meant a special case in a fire authority area under the Bill.

Mr. Connolly

Is it true that approval will not be given to the Department to take on additional staff to implement the provisions of the Bill? We are all anxious to implement the terms of the Bill, because there is little point in expressing words of regret after a tragedy. After such occurrences many people come forward and lay the blame at certain doors but that is not what should happen. I am anxious to know if bodies such as Laois County Council or Offaly Council will have adequate personnel to implement the terms of the Bill. I have grave doubts about that. Senior personnel I have spoken to realise that extra personnel will have to be recruited to deal with these important matters and I am worried about that aspect. The embargo should be lifted as far as the fire services throughout the country are concerned. If extra personnel are required to carry out this responsible work, they should be recruited.

Mr. R. Ryan

Deputy Connolly, and the Fianna Fáil Party, are giving voice to a fallacy that to get more work done one needs more people to do it. The truth is often the reverse. It is no slight on public authorities, any more than it is a slight on private enterprises, to say that there is often room for improvement in working methods and systems, that it is often possible by motivating people properly, by reorganising work, to get more work done. If the consequence of the Government decision, or an embargo, is that efficiency in the public service can be increased, we could well end up with a situation which we were moving towards between 1974 and 1977, where a happier public service was doing more work. For the ten years prior to 1974 the average increase in the numbers in the public service was 6 per cent but between 1973 and 1977 that average increase was reduced to 1 per cent, although that 1 per cent catered for a very substantial increase in the number of teachers to cater for the increased child population and a very substantial number of soldiers and gardaí. A much greater volume of work was done by a comparatively smaller number of public servants, who in the process achieved much greater job satisfaction less boredom, and, in many cases, greater pay. If it is considered prudent by all wise businessmen, and it is considered prudent by them, that to achieve greater productivity one should reorganise the work force, cut out unnecessary practices and paper work, it is not wrong that that should also be done in the public service. It is good that it should be done. It is a real tragedy — I am not talking party politics at the moment although it may seem that I am——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am concerned that the Deputy must speak on section 9 of the Bill which deals specifically with the authority given to local authorities in respect of this service.

Mr. Raphael Burke

We are talking about the fire services.

Mr. Connolly

Deputy Ryan is doing a bit of wandering.

Mr. Raphael Burke

The Deputy is welcome back.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are discussing the question of the authority which the local council or corporation may have in respect of recruitment and the Deputy should confine his comments to that aspect. The Chair would be happy if he did so.

Mr. R. Ryan

I am with the Chair. I am here to quell the fires of enthusiasm which Deputy Connolly has displayed for the gross expansion in the numbers of the public service for the purpose of working the provisions of this Bill. The Bill is capable of being worked by the authorities which already exist with the additional powers being given to them under the Bill. The way to ensure a growth in bureaucracy without the additional protection that the Bill seems to give the community is to expand the numbers, but of much more importance is to give job satisfaction and worthwhile powers to the existing authorities, That is what the Bill is doing and that is what it will achieve without the flabby expansion in numbers which Deputy Connolly is advocating.

Mr. Raphael Burke

It has been enlightening to listen to that contribution from the other side of the House, a Fine Gael contribution, leaving aside the Minister. As the Deputy spoke the picture was going through my mind of the happier public servants doing more work on their 1 per cent increase in four years. "Richie's little robots," is the phrase that crossed my mind at the time. The reality of the situation is that the former Minister left a public service with a backlog of wage and salary demands that had to be met by the incoming Fianna Fáil administration. To talk about motivation and fallacy about numbers, to talk about reorganisation of work practices, to talk about extra paperwork and setting up little bureauracies and cushy jobs for firemen is not what the Bill is about.

I might remind the Deputy and the House of one amendment put down by the Minister, which reads:

.... "(10) A fire authority shall, as soon as may be after the commencement of this section and as occasion requires, make a survey to examine the location and adequacy of water supplies for fire-fighting purposes, fire-fighting equipment and fire hydrants.".

The Bill, of its very nature, envisages an improvement in the fire services — otherwise there would be no necessity for the Bill — an improvement taking into account industrial expansion, and the general improvement of standards throughout the country envisages also the construction of new fire stations. It envisages development of the fire services in the new expanding towns and suburbs around the country. This will necessitate extra manpower, and is not relevant to the trite comments made concerning no extra manpower because of public borrowing and the national debt situation we have just heard from a former Minister for Finance. We are talking about extra manpower necessary to implement fully the provisions of the Bill, in particular as they relate to fire prevention. This will involve and necessitate the employment of extra firemen and extra staff within the fire services. We envisage the construction of extra fire stations. They will not be manned by the existing force already stretched to their limit. I would assure the Deputy and the House that that is not what is included in this Bill.

According to the Deputy Richie Ryan's little right-wing philosophy we have just heard, there is no room for the expansion of our fire services. That was not the cry we heard from him and his party when they were sitting on this side of the House a short few months ago. The electorate would have been very interested to have heard those comments prior to the general election. It is only now we hear the full monetarist philosophy — the worker is all wrong and blame the public service. The public service have a productive role to play, not the type of role which seems to be envisaged and which surprises me coming from a former Minister for Finance and, I think, also Minister for the Public Service at the time.

Mr. R. Ryan

That is correct. The Deputy is well informed.

Mr. Raphael Burke

This catchcry that the public service is comprised of people sitting in offices drinking cups of tea all day is altogether wrong. They have a productive role to play and the fire services are a classic example.

Under the terms of the Bill there is envisaged greater involvement of the fire services particularly in the fire prevention area. It is indeed disappointing to hear the Minister say in response to the discussion we have had on this section that the fire services be expanded only with existing staff except in special cases. Everything is a special case when it comes to the fire services. The whole of the fire services should be excluded from the operation of the regulation laid down by the Minister for Finance in July. It is a source of considerable disappointment and worry to hear the Minister talk about the expansion of the fire services in this cheese-paring way. On the first section, when I questioned him about the operation of the Bill and asked for a guarantee that there would be no hold-up in funds, he gave the House that guarantee. Now we hear from the Minister that that wholehearted guarantee is less than wholehearted and can be considered as such only when we consider the manning situation and the manner in which he talks about it.

Mr. P. Barry

Before I reply to one of the points made by Deputy Burke, might I ask him to define the word "monetarist" he used?

Mr. Raphael Burke

He is the Minister and we are discussing the Bill.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

While I might see some relevance I would hope its relevance to section 9 would be accepted by either side.

Mr. P. Barry

I want to know what the Deputy means by it so that I can ascertain its relevance to section 9, if he would define it for me.

Mr. R. Ryan

I think it is an inflammatory statement.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I have made my contribution and I will be interested to hear the Minister's response, particularly to the question of the staffing and how he envisages an improvement of the fire services being put into operation if he will not allow local authorities to recruit extra staff except within their existing allocations.

Mr. P. Barry

I think we can take it by the Deputy's unwillingness to define the word that, like Deputy Fitzgerald and Deputy Haughey, he does not understand what it means. Certainly he used it in the wrong context there, given its accepted meaning.

I must repeat how grateful I am to Deputy Burke and Deputy Connolly for their assurance that they would facilitate the speedy passage of this Bill through the House because they realised how necessary it was to have it passed as quickly as possible. Deputy Burke asked me to give an assurance that when the Bill became law the necessary money would be available. I gave him that assurance, that immediately the Bill was passed its provisions would be put into operation and that the money would be made available for staffing and buildings to do so.

Mr. Raphael Burke

But the Minister is going back on that in what he has just told us on this section.

Mr. Connolly

I think Deputy Richie Ryan was of the impression that I was talking about hundreds of employees. I did not mean anything like that at all. I was talking about additional staff, because many chief fire officers throughout the country have told me that they would not be in a position to carry out the job as laid down under the provisions of this Bill without additional personnel. I can only go on their word. As I know them, they strike me as highly respectable and intelligent men who know their job. That is my interpretation of the situation. I understand now that there will be no extra recruitment. They and the local authorities must now realise that they will not be allowed to recruit any additional personnel.

Mr. P. Barry

If that is the Deputies' interpretation of what I said, I am afraid there is nothing more I can add.

Mr. Raphael Burke

Might I ask the Minister, because it is fundamental to this section dealing with the functions of fire authorities, where are we wrong? Can the Minister now give this House a guarantee that where extra personnel are required for a new fire station or to implement the provisions of this Bill — for example, in respect of all of the fire prevention roles envisaged, the extension of the fire services to outlying areas, the improvement of the fire services, the extra training and staffing that will be required — they will be employed without affecting existing staff allocations in the local authorities involved?

Mr. P. Barry

Let us be quite clear on this. I have given the undertaking that the money necessary to implement the provisions of this Bill will be provided. As I said earlier, we cannot have the position repeated in the next four years that obtained in the last four. As I pointed out, Deputies opposite spent all day yesterday voting against increases in taxation. The cost of the public sector bill at present is over 50 per cent of the total budget. I presume Deputies opposite want more public sector expansion without being willing to vote for the taxation to pay for it. They must make up their minds; they cannot have it both ways. If they want extra staff employed in the public sector they must come in here and vote for the taxation necessary. They did not do that yesterday. Therefore any plea by them to employ extra staff, having refused to vote the necessary taxation, is hypocritical. They do not mean what they say. They are trying to create the impression that they want expansion and the creation of jobs but they will not provide the money. I have already assured the House that the money, the facilities and the staff will be provided.

Mr. Raphael Burke

The Minister refuses to answer a simple question. The Bill envisages the expansion of the fire services to cater for increased industrialisation and other developments such as hospitals, schools and so forth. The Bill envisages the construction of more fire stations. Under the Minister's amendment:

A fire authority shall, as soon as may be after the commencement of this section and as occasion requires, make a survey to examine the location and adequacy of water supplies for fire-fighting purposes, fire-fighting equipment and fire hydrants.

All this will involve extra staff. We have the examples of the Dublin Corporation and Dublin County Council in regard to the Tallaght fire station. Will the Minister give an assurance that the necessary moneys will be available? Will he assure the House that the staff required will be additional to the existing allocations or will this mean a diversion of staff from road maintenance, road construction, lighting maintenance, cleaning and so on? All I ask for is a simple answer. Will the staff be additional to existing staff or will there be allocations out of existing staffs?

Mr. P. Barry

The position will be precisely as I said in reply to a question tabled by Deputy Larry MacMahon. Where a local authority can find the extra staff within their own personnel they will have to do so because Deputies' opposite are not willing to vote for taxation to pay extra staff and we do not want the same kind of borrowing that went on for the last four years.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister is as insistent and persistent in his reply as was Deputy Burke in the presentation of his question and, in so far as we have had repetition for the last ten minutes or more, I would suggest that we could now move on since we seem to have reached stalemate.

Mr. Raphael Burke

Fair enough. I share your view that we should move on but it is patently obvious that this Bill cannot be operated without staff and the Minister is refusing to give staff. I want that on the record.

Mr. Connolly

The position in Offaly is that there is an engineer looking after the roads. He looks after water as well. He is the fire officer at the moment. He is asked to look after three jobs. The Minister is asking for inspections to be carried out. That is quite right but I am satisfied we will not have the necessary personnel to implement the provisions of this Bill in full.

Mr. Raphael Burke

We are dissatisfied with the situation.

Mr. P. Barry

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle will probably rule me out for repetition but I must repeat that the money will be available and, if increased numbers are required, those increased numbers will also be available.

Mr. Connolly

We want sufficient personnel to implement the Bill in full. We say we will not have sufficient personnel to carry out inspections and so forth.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 10.

Mr. P. Barry

I move amendment No. 5.

In page eight, subsection (2) (b) line 3, to delete "purposes," and substitute—"purpose, and

(c) make adequate provision for the reception of and response to calls for the assistance of the fire brigade.".

This matter was raised in a Labour Party amendment put down prior to the dissolution of the Dáil and is already covered by the general provisions of section 10 (2) (b) of the Bill which requires a fire authority to establish and maintain a fire brigade, provide premises and make such other provision as it considers necessary or desirable for such purpose. This duty on fire authorities is expressed widely enough to cover the making of provision for the reception of requests for the service and also the response to such a request. Also section 10 (2) (a) requires fire authorities to make provision for the prompt and efficient extinguishing of fires. This implies an obligation to make arrangements for expenditious response to requests for the assistance of the service. While the amendment is not, therefore, strictly necessary, the provision of adequate facilities for the receipt of calls and call-out of brigades is of utmost importance. The amendment will help put this duty beyond any doubt and will make the statement of fire fighting responsibilities more comprehensive.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. P. Barry

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 8, subsection (3), lines 7 to 9, to delete all words from "the character of the area" to the end of the subsection and substitute "the character of the area and the value of the property liable to be damaged by fires.".

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. P. Barry

I move amendment No. 7:

In page 8, subsection (9), line 35, to delete "In the exercise of its functions,".

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. P. Barry

I move amendment No. 8:

In page 8, subsection (9), line 37, after "not" to add "and where any such fire brigade is sent outside the functional area of any fire authority, the person who is for the time being in charge there of shall have the powers available to the person in control at a fire or other emergency under section 28".

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. P. Barry

I move amendment No. 9:

In page 8, between lines 37 and 38, to insert the following subsection—

"(10) A fire authority shall, as soon as may be after the commencement of this section and as occasion requires, make a survey to examine the location and adequacy of water supplies for fire-fighting purposes, fire-fighting equipment and fire hydrants.".

Amendment agreed to.

Section 10, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 11.

Mr. P. Barry

I move amendment No. 10:

In page 8, subsection (1), line 43, to delete paragraph (c).

This is a purely drafting Amendment. The only reference to local authorities in the Public Dance Halls Act 1935 is in relation to the giving of certain notices to local authorities by applicants for licences. This aspect is adequately covered with regard to public dancing licences in section 24 and there is no need to include the Public Dance Halls Act, 1935, in section 11.

Mr. Raphael Burke

Will the Minister assure the House that the investigation as to the suitability of a premises in which to hold a public dance is adequately covered and all precautions are taken from the point of view of materials used, numbers allowed and, more importantly, the adequacy of the exits and their control, and so on, and that the deletion of the Public Dance Halls Act, 1935, from this section will not in any way adversely affect the situation?

Mr. P. Barry

That is covered under section 24. It does not make any difference.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 10, as amended, agreed to.

Section 11 agreed to.

SECTION 12.

Question proposed: "That section 12 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Raphael Burke

This section deals with the measures to be taken in consultation with the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs about the effectiveness of equipment for calling a fire brigade in the event of a fire. How does the Minister envisage the practical operation of this section?

Mr. P. Barry

The necessity for the section is obvious because of the responsibilities under two different Departments. I visualise that fire authorities, when inspecting their areas, would identify places where there is no public telephone or where a post office is not manned after a certain hour. I would bring that to the attention of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs or his Department or, if practical, to the head post office in that area who would, in consultation with the fire authority, ensure there was a constant availability of telecommunications service in the identified area so that if the fire brigade was needed, it could be called out at short notice.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I included that proposal in the original draft but it is a pious hope when dealing with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 13 and 14 agreed to.

SECTION 15.

Question proposed: "That section 15 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. P. Barry

I move amendment No. 11:

In page 9, subsection (3) (a), line 34, after "facilities" to insert "(including a national training centre)".

I have received representations from a number of interests suggesting that the Minister should be empowered to establish a national training centre, and a Labour Party Member also made reference to a national centre. While it was originally intended that the words "provision of facilities" in subsection (3) (a), would adequately cover the provision of such a centre, I have decided to put the matter beyond doubt by moving an amendment suggesting the addition of the words "including a national training centre" after "facilities".

Mr. Raphael Burke

I accept the amendment but the whole question of an adequately trained fire-fighting and prevention staff on a national basis is necessary because of the tragedies which have taken place and which have concentrated our minds on the need for an adequate fire-fighting service. One area that has been under constant complaint, both from those inside the service and those looking at it, is the inadequacy of training. I know great strides were made with regard to the training centre in Wexford and that training was provided for personnel in centres in the UK but this was only scratching the surface. When does the Minister envisage the national training centre being established? Pending the establishment of this centre, what action is he taking in the meantime for full training to be provided, not just in Dublin, Cork and Galway where they have a full-time fire service, but also in rural areas? There should be training in the use of breathing apparatus. This has been the cause of considerable controversy. Training in types of material should be given for those involved in fire protection work and special attention should be given to buildings in the course of fire protection examinations and reports. Training should be given in the most modern equipment for communications. I understand that at present in the Dublin Corporation area the system of communications on a fire site between the men is literally hailing one another or asking a colleague to carry a message to the fire cheif. There are no walkie-talkie facilities available to firemen working on sites in the Dublin Corporation area. If it is as bad as that in Dublin, how much worse is it in rural areas?

What steps are being taken, as a matter of urgency, to extend training on breathing apparatus equipment to all firemen? In the past there have been industrial disputes with regard to breathing apparatus and I am anxious to hear what the Minister has to say about this.

Mr. P. Barry

I agree with Deputy Burke that the constant retraining of the staffs of fire services is essential but the primary responsibility in this matter lies with the fire authorities. If the Dáil accepts my proposal in this regard and if it becomes law, I will ask the fire council to look at the adequacy of training facilities in individual authorities and nationally. We should also set up courses for part-time firemen who are a very important arm of the fire-fighting service. This section enables the fire training centre to be set up. I expect the council to advise me on this because their views would be very valuable in this regard and a very effective short-cut to getting information.

Mr. Connolly

As the Minister is aware, a number of local authorities have no arrangements for adequate training. I presume a training school would be in a central location where the local authority could send their personnel for courses. If this is so, it would be very welcome. Part-time personnel are doing an excellent job but lack the finesse of special training and if this could be brought about it would be very helpful. How long will it take to put this into operation? The Minister said it is a matter for each local authority or corporation, but I think it would be advisable in regard to training personnel to bring them on courses which cover new techniques in fire-fighting. Could we have, perhaps, three or four locations throughout the country at which these courses would be provided? The Minister mentioned earlier that the matter is one for each local authority but perhaps there could be a central location in Leinster and another, say, in Munster. In any case, adequate training should be provided as quickly as possible.

Mr. P. Barry

We are all concerned that both the part-time and full-time staffs of the fire service receive the highest standard of training. The basic training has always been undertaken by the local authorities in their own areas but more sophisticated and advanced training is needed and this, as the Deputy suggests, could be done either regionally or at a national centre. However, that is the kind of advice I will be seeking from the fire council. They will be advising us as to the best procedure to adopt in the interest of getting the best possible results.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I accept the goodwill of the Minister in this matter but in the interim we should have adequate training and equipment in the area of breathing apparatus. It is becoming increasingly obvious that this is needed, so it is hardly necessary for the Minister to await the setting up of a council to advise in that regard.

Mr. P. Barry

This is something that has been in progress.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I am aware of that but I am asking for an extension of the situation.

Mr. P. Barry

I am not sure that it will be extended much further. There have been about 20 courses in the past four years. That represents one every second month approximately and that I expect is as much as the instructors in the use of breathing apparatus can undertake at this stage.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 15, as amended, agreed to.

NEW SECTION.

Mr. P. Barry

I move amendment No. 12:

In page 10, before section 16 to insert a new section as follows—

"16.—(1) The Minister may by order establish a body which shall be known as the Fire Services Council (in this section referred to as the Council) to perform such services for or on behalf of the Minister or fire authorities as he may specify from time to time.

(2) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1), the Council shall at the request of the Minister—

(a) perform such functions under section 15 (3) as the Minister may assign to the Council,

(b) assist in the preparation of guidelines, codes of practice, standards or regulations relating to fire safety,

(c) undertake or arrange for research in relation to fire or fire safety matters,

(d) carry out an investigation into any fire or any operation of an emergency nature to which section 25 relates and make a report thereon to the Minister.

(3) The Local Government Services (Corporate Bodies) Act, 1971, shall apply for the purposes of this section to a fire authority, to an order under this section as if it were an establishment order and to the Council as if it were established under such an order.

(4) The Council shall make an annual report of its activities to the Minister who shall cause it to be laid before each House of the Oireachtas.".

I have received representations from fire service staff interests which suggested that the Fire Service Training Council to be established under section 16 as originally drafted should be given a mandate to deal with a wider range of fire service matters. I have given this question careful consideration and I agree that the council should be given a wider mandate. I also consider it important that the council should have more than just an advisory role and should be given suitable functions to enable it to make a useful, constructive and practical contribution to the improvement of the fire service. There is, for example, a pressing need to develop arrangements for fire service training. The preparation of guidelines and standards for the fire service is also an urgent priority. I expect that a council on the lines envisaged in the amendment could make a significant and worthwhile contribution in such areas.

The amendment provides for the establishment by order of a fire services council empowered to provide specified services for and on behalf of the Minister and fire authorities. These services can include advice as well as practical assignments. Subsection (2) of the amendment spells out a number of specific services which the council shall provide at the request of the Minister. The first of these relates to training. The basic responsibility for training will remain with fire authorities but section 15 (3) empowers the Minister to assist fire authorities by arranging or providing instruction, providing training facilities, including a national training centre, conducting examinations and granting certificates. The council could assist in relation to these training functions immediately by taking over responsibility for devising, organising and directing central courses. My Department have done a substantial amount of this kind of work already but the programme needs to be expanded and developed to give the maximum assistance to local fire authorities in improving the efficiency of the fire service.

The production of guidelines and standards in respect of many aspects of the fire service is also necessary in order to promote efficiency and standardisation. The Department already use ad hoc groups, representative of fire service and other interests, in preparing guidelines for the fire service.

Much remains to be done in this area and I consider that existing arrangements need to be developed on a more formal basis. Subsection (2) therefore enables the council to assist with the preparation of guidelines, codes of practice and draft fire safety regulations. These documents would still require my consideration and approval but their production could be much more expeditious if the research, drafting and consultation were entrusted to the council.

The council would be empowered to organise research and also to carry out investigations into fires or into operations of an emergency nature under section 25. This latter provision is similar to an arrangement in Britain whereby the Fire Brigades Advisory Councils, at the request of the Home Secretary, carry out investigations and prepare reports into major fires. In addition to the existing powers for establishment in appropriate cases of a tribunal of inquiry, I consider that there should also be a less formal procedure available for use in appropriate circumstances which could quickly produce an account of a particular incident and the lessons to be learned. Under subsection (2) the Minister could request the council to carry out such an investigation.

It is intended that the council would be a broadly representative body, whose members would also possess a fair measure of expertise in fire and related matters. The details of membership would be left to the establishment order. I believe that the council, in co-operation with my Department and fire authorities, can make an invaluable contribution to the advancement of the fire service.

This amendment does not itself establish the council but gives the Minister power to do so. Any establishment order would, of course, have to be laid before each House of the Oireachtas.

Mr. Raphael Burke

This is a very important amendment. While I welcome the extension of what was to be a fire services training council into a fire services council and while I welcome also the terms of reference of the council, since the advice regarding codes of practice and standards of regulations in the area of training are very important, I wish however to question the Minister on paragraph (d).

In his explanation of his reason for tabling the amendment the Minister said he intends that this type of inquiry will be related to matters of what we might call normal house fires but that it would be in addition to the type of tribunal used in the Stardust and Whiddy Inquiries. This paragraph of the amendment concerns a matter which the former Minister of State at the Department of the Environment referred to consistently in relation to the Bundoran fire disaster. Is it the Minister's intention to have a public inquiry into the tragedy at the Central Hotel in Bundoran in August 1979? Is it the intention to have a public inquiry into the incident or is it the intention to use the type of power envisaged in paragraph (d) of this amendment?

Mr. P. Barry

What the Minister of State said was that this was the normal way of ensuring that an inquiry could be held into the Bundoran fire. The Government have said that there will be an inquiry into the fire but they have not said whether that inquiry will be public. The Act under which the Stardust Inquiry is being held and under which, I think, the Whiddy Inquiry was held also, specifies that the business must be urgent and important. That speaks for itself. While the importance of the Bundoran tragedy remains, it is less urgent now than when the motion was tabled originally in April or May of this year.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I do not accept the Minister's comment with regard to the urgency for this inquiry. In recent weeks we have seen the publication of the Garda report on this tragedy. The recent television programme on it and the interviews which took place on that programme highlight the need for a public inquiry into the incident which took place in Bundoran. I would like for the record and for the benefit of the House in discussing this matter, to remind the House of the timetable of events since August 1980. The fire, with tragic loss of life, took place on the night of 8 August 1980. Reports were made by Donegal County Council, the Garda Síochána and by the chief fire adviser to the Department. Papers were referred by the Garda to the Director of Public Prosecutions, who on a couple of occasions requested additional information. At the end of March the Director of Public Prosecutions indicated it was not his intention to proceed with a criminal prosecution.

On 10 April 1981 I announced the Government's intention to hold a public inquiry into this incident. At that stage we were in a position to do so because the Director of Public Prosecutions only days before that had indicated his intention not to proceed with any criminal prosecution. During the debate on the setting up of the Stardust Tribunal and in the two months following that incident the Minister's party continued to call for a public sworn inquiry into the Bundoran fire. The present Taoiseach was involved in the Question on Tuesday, 24 March 1981 as reported in volume 327, No. 12 of the Official Report. Deputy White and the present Minister for Education were involved in this also. Deputy Browne, who was very vocal on this matter at that stage, was also involved in this question. The accusation of cover-up was being thrown about. I refused to accept any accusation whatsoever at that time. After announcing the intention to set up the tribunal the previous Government laid before the House on 7 May 1981 the following motion:

That it is expedient that a tribunal be established for—

1. Inquiring into the following definite matters of urgent public importance:

(1) the immediate and other causes of, and the circumstances leading to the fire at the Central Hotel, Bundoran, on the 8 August, 1980,

(2) the circumstances of and leading to the loss of life and personal injury at the Central Hotal on the 8 August, 1980,

(3) the measures, and their adequacy, taken on and before 8 August, 1980, to prevent and detect and to minimise and otherwise to deal with fire at the Central Hotel,

(4) the means and systems of emergency escape from the Central Hotel, and their adequacy, on 8 August, 1980,

(5) the measures, and their adequacy taken on and before 8 August, 1980, at the Central Hotel to prevent and to minimise and otherwise to deal with any other circumstances that led or contributed to the loss of life and personal injury aforesaid or might have led or contributed to loss of life or personal injury,

(6) the adequacy in relation to the Central Hotel of the legislation, statutory regulations and byelaws relevant to fire prevention and safety, and of the application, observance and enforcement of such legislation, statutory regulations and byelaws.

2. Making such recommendations as the Tribunal, having regard to its findings, thinks proper in respect of the statutory and other provisions in relation to fire, fire prevention and means and systems of emergency escape from fire in hotels, their adequacy and enforcement and any other matters that the Tribunal considers relevent.

We had a general election and that motion was not debated. We had a Second Stage debate on the Fire Bill, but the motion was not debated.

When in opposition earlier this year the present Government parties and one of the Deputies who keep them in power. were very loud in their calls for a public inquiry into this matter. On 21 July last I asked the Minister for the Environment the following question:

Mr. Raphael Burke asked the Minister for the Environment if he intends to proceed with the holding of the public inquiry into the fire at the Central Hotel, Bundoran, County Donegal, on 8 August 1980; if so, its terms of reference; and when he expects the first sitting to take place.

The reply given was:

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment (Mr. F. O'Brien): I have this matter presently under consideration and a decision will be announced in due course.

A further discussion took place as follows:

Mr. Raphael Burke: It is unfortunate that the Minister himself did not answer this question. The Bundoran fire inquiry was a matter of considerable concern to the Minister's party when on this side of the House.

Mr. E. Collins: Not to the Deputy's party.

Mr. Raphael Burke: The previous Government laid down the terms of reference of this inquiry and the matter was on the Order Paper. Is the Minister prepared to honour the Commitment to hold this inquiry?

Mr. F. O'Brien: As I indicated, I am considering this matter and will make known my decision in due course.

On 22 October last I asked the Minister for the Environment if and when he intends to publish the report of the internal investigation into the Bundoran Hotel fire tragedy. At that stage it looked as if we would never get to the public inquiry. The reply given by the Minister of State referred to the reports which had been prepared earlier. I then said:

The Minister will recall that when the Coalition were in opposition there were numerous calls for the holding of a public inquiry into the tragedy at Bundoran. Is the Minister now prepared to publish the reports available to him, one from his own fire services adviser, and will he hold a public inquiry?

The Minister of State then said:

As I indicated in my reply, the report referred to is for departmental use only and in the normal way such reports are not published. With regard to the Deputy's request for a tribunal, that is under active consideration. As the Deputy is aware, it is hoped that the Committee Stage of the Fire Bill will be taken next week and section 16 will set up a Fire Service Council. I hope they will examine that tragedy rather than setting up a wide-scale tribunal which would be very costly.

That is on the record of the House by the former Minister of State in the Department of the Environment. He stated:

I believe a Fire Service Council would do the job adequately. I am pursuing another area because we do not want to set up costly tribunals every time a tragedy occurs.

In my view it is becoming something of an "in" thing to criticise the cost of the Stardust Tribunal. It is indeed a very costly operation and I regret that. However, the necessity for the tribunal far outweighs the cost factor. If it was true in respect of the Stardust incident, equally it is true of the Bundoran fire incident.

A few minutes ago the Minister spoke of the urgency of the matter and he said this was a factor that had to be considered in deciding whether to set up a tribunal. The Government have been in power since the beginning of July. On two occasions the matter was considered in this House. Today we are asked to accept an amendment to the Bill before the House but the Minister will not say if it is his intention under paragraph (2) (d) of amendment No. 12 to investigate the Bundoran incident. The former Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, now Government Whip, said on 22 October it was his intention to use that type of investigation. On behalf of Fianna Fáil I am calling on the Government to proceed with the public inquiry and the terms of the tribunal as set out in the Dáil Order Paper of 7 May 1981.

There is considerable public disquiet regarding this matter. It is in the public interest and the interest of the people concerned in Bundoran that this be done. The terms of reference of the tribunal relate not only to the incident in Bundoran. Paragraph 2 of the terms of reference refer to: "Making such recommendations as the Tribunal, having regard to its findings, thinks proper in respect of the statutory and other provisions in relation to fire, fire prevention and means and systems of emergency escape from fire in hotels, their adequacy and enforcement and any other matters the Tribunal considers relevant. "The hotel and tourist industry is of vital importance to the economy. The second item to be considered by the tribunal which I have quoted is very important to the operation of the tourist industry. In encouraging tourists to come here, in the grading system used by Bord Fáilte, in the incentives given and in advertising for tourists, the most basic thing is to assure people that they will be safe in our hotels.

When the Government were in opposition many of the Minister's colleagues, including the Taoiseach, spoke about this matter and the Deputy who is keeping the Government in power, Deputy Browne, was vocal on this point. We showed our good faith by putting the terms of reference on the Order Paper of 7 May. On two occasions the Minister of State told us that it was being considered and we heard it today again. The good faith of the Government must be questioned when we see that they are changing their attitude on a basic matter such as this.

On behalf of Fianna Fáil I call on the Minister to announce the decision of the Government to go ahead with the holding of this public inquiry. He should state clearly if it is a question of the cost of the tribunal. Is he trying to include it under paragraph (d) of amendment No. 12, as was the stated intention of Deputy F. O'Brien, Minister of State? Why is the Minister so reluctant to carry out what his party spoke about so much when they were in opposition, namely, the holding of a tribunal? I am calling on him now to announce his intention to proceed with the tribunal.

Mr. P. Gallagher

As a Deputy from the constituency concerned, I should like to endorse what Deputy Burke has said. The terms of reference should be similar to those set out by Fianna Fáil in April prior to the general election. If it were not for the general election a public sworn inquiry would have been held and we might have had recommendations from it. We are not particularly interested in having a public inquiry merely for the sake of having such an inquiry. It is our view that the findings would help to prevent further fires in hotels throughout the country. The recommendations of the tribunal should be implemented immediately. This would allay any fears of people who stay in hotels. Unfortunately visitors in our hotels will think of the dreadful disaster that occurred in the Central Hotel, Bundoran in 1980. I know that the local public representatives of the area are most anxious that a public sworn inquiry be held. As a Deputy from the area I endorse what Deputy Burke has said and I ask the Minister to arrange to have a full public inquiry carried out immediately.

Mr. P. Barry

In relation to the last Deputy's contribution I have spoken to public representatives from that area. I was in Bundoran five or six weeks ago and met the chairman and members of the Bundoran Uraban District Council and also the chairman and members of the Fine Gael Party in that area. At no stage were representations made to me by any group of people or any individual I met in an effort to influence me to ask the Government to take a decision one way or the other in the matter. The only thing that was said to me by I think, the chairman of the Urban District Council — I am open to correction on this — was that he would like the Government to announce a decision as soon as possible. That was the only reference made to it during the hours I spent in Bundoran.

Deputy Burke said that the last Government decided to hold a public inquiry into the Bundoran fire some time in April on the basis of an order placed in this House in May this year. The reason for the delay in placing the order before the House was that they were waiting for a Garda report on the fire that took place in August 1980. Subsequent to that the Stardust fire took place and within a relatively short space of time an inquiry was set up without the findings of the Garda inquiry. Any neutral observer would be entitled to conclude two facts from this: the last Government did not decide to have a public inquiry until they felt that because, due to the weight of public opinion, they were obliged to hold an inquiry into the Stardust fire, it would look, to put it no stronger, odd if they did not have an inquiry into the Bundoran fire. They set up the inquiry into the Stardust fire under the 1921 Act which states that an inquiry shall be held in urgent and important matters. That certainly applied in the case of the Stardust fire. It would be reasonable to say that it did not apply at that stage in the case of the Bundoran fire. The matter was important. The Garda report was available at the time and on the basis of that the Director of Public Prosecutions said he would not be issuing summonses. What was to be established was, as Deputy P. Gallagher said, how such a fire could be avoided in future.

When we came to office we looked at this matter and at the decision of the DPP and the amount of money spent on the Stardust inquiry which is just over £1 million. We are not sure if the object was to ensure that a similar occurrence did not happen again and we were not sure if that objective would be achieved by having an inquiry similar to that in the case of the Stardust fire. I say we were not sure. We do not rule it out. At that stage we decided that we should leave a further option open which is the amendment to the Bill we are now discussing and that is the setting up of a fire council. I understand a similar council set up an inquiry into the Woolworths fire some years ago in Manchester. Its findings were accepted by all concerned as being fair and helpful. The Government have not yet decided, because they cannot until the council is established, whether they will have a public inquiry under the 1921 Act, given the fact that the urgency appears to have gone from it, or whether they will use the council. The function of the council is to do what Deputy P. Gallagher wants, set up inquiries and establish a set of guidelines and, by investigating the fire that took place in Bundoran, ensure that such a fire does not occur again. This is one of the reasons the amendment is before the House.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I want to correct a statement made by the Minister. He referred to the fact that the previous Government did not declare their intention to hold an inquiry until April because they were waiting on a Garda report. That was not the situation. The initial Garda report became available much earlier and had been referred to the DPP. He requested considerable additional information on a number of occasions. When he made his statement that he did not intend to proceed with prosecutions, within days the Government announced their intention to hold a public inquiry into the Bundoran tragedy. They were not waiting for the Garda report. In a press conference on the Fire Bill on 10 April I announced the setting up of the inquiry. The Minister referred to the weight of public opinion which was on the shoulders of the Government pressing for a public inquiry into the Bundoran incident.

Mr. P. Barry

That is not what I said. I said the Stardust incident.

Mr. Raphael Burke

If when in opposition the Minister's party saw need for a public inquiry at that time is it now only on money grounds that there is not to be one? It is becoming obvious that if the Government intended to hold a public inquiry into the Bundoran tragedy they would have announced it in July when questioned by me in the House or again in October or they would have announced it today when we are discussing this Bill.

The Minister talked about the further options opened by this amendment which he has here before us today. That envisages carrying out investigations into any fire or any operation of an emergency nature to which section 25 relates and making a report thereon to the Minister. If we were to use that procedure what is the position with regard to the calling of witnesses and the evidence to be given at such an inquiry? Is it to be sworn evidence? What is the legal position with regard to privilege? Is it to be public or private? I find it disturbing that the Government are so reluctant to follow on a basic commitment such as the holding of this inquiry. If the Minister recognises the validity of the case that Deputy Gallagher and I have made with regard to such a tribunal and the recommendations that it might make in respect of fire, fire prevention and means of emergency escape from fire in hotels, why is he so reluctant, in view of the leaks that have taken place and of the general public disquiet about this incident, to announce an inquiry?

The Minister was in Bundoran six or eight weeks ago talking to people in the area. Circumstances have altered considerably since then. They altered with the unfortunate delay by the Government that resulted in part of a Garda report being leaked. The portion of that report which was leaked and published related to the fire doors, fire hoses and materials used within the hotel and general questions about the incident and the tragedy involved. Because of the delay by the Government and their reluctance to call an inquiry, somewhere somebody released part of that Garda report. Following on that report and the investigation carried out by the "Today Tonight" team with all the interviews in that programme there is considerable disquiet about this whole tragedy at the Central Hotel on 8 August 1980. I suggest to the Minister that the matter is still very urgent and important. It can and should be dealt with under the 1921 Act. I appeal to the Minister to ease the public disquiet about this occurrence and proceed with the public inquiry which the previous Government placed before this House on 7 May last.

Mr. P. Barry

I do not want to go over this ground again. It is too tragic for many of the people involved. As I said, the Government are having an inquiry into this. We are opening up a further option, for instance, as to what kind of inquiry to have at this stage. Even though we tried to establish what happened in Bundoran — that would be the purpose of the inquiry — we should be concerned also about the point raised by Deputy Gallagher to ensure that we can learn from that tragedy sufficient to impose standards and laws that will prevent it happening in other hotels. I accept Deputy Burke's point about the Director of Public Prosecutions reporting only in April and for that reason we are waiting for the report, but he said that the Garda report had been available something like two months before that.

Mr. Raphael Burke

It was quite a considerable time before the report was published.

Mr. P. Barry

This was the same Garda report of which a leak was referred to on television last week. If he had considered that report so serious and of public concern at the time he should have brought an order into this House in February referring to the Bundoran fire, but he did not do so.

Mr. Raphael Burke

The previous Government at that time decided to await the decision of the Director of Public Prosecutions. That was announced by me in this House on a number of occasions. I do not want to get into controversy on this because it is a tragedy and so many families are involved. However, the Minister says on the one hand that the Government intend to hold an inquiry. He will not tell us at this stage whether the inquiry is to be a public sworn inquiry or an inquiry under this amendment he is bringing for paragraph (d) under the Fire Services Council. Section 12 which he is amending sets out that the Minister may by order establish a body which will be known as the Fire Services Council. It does not set up this body. It says that it may do so by order. In his reply in the debate part of his contribution was "if the council is established". I presume that the council will be established. I am looking at the timing of it. We are on Committee Stage of this Bill here today. Assuming we finish that Stage the next day, because it does not seem that it will finish this evening by 7 p.m. — then on another occasion we will have Report Stage. Then it has to go to the Seanad for discussion there right through Second Stage, because we are in the enviable position of starting our discussion on it on Committee Stage in this House. It will be at least the Christmas break — or close to it because we are not many parliamentary weeks away from Christmas — before it is completed. Assuming that the Minister sets up this council some time in January or maybe later, because I doubt if it can be set up before Christmas, then one of the first tasks of a brand new body will or ought to be to investigate what happened in Bundoran, and we are heading into the second year after the tragedy at that stage.

It is not only in the Government's own political interests, not only in the interests of keeping commitments made prior to elections by the Government parties, it is not only for the sake of getting to the root of the incident involved, it is in the public and national interest that this inquiry should be held now. Too many questions are left unanswered which should be cleared from all points of view, from the point of view of every party and from the national point of view. It is necessary to have this public sworn inquiry. I suggest to the Minister that he reconsider his stance on it. He should appeal to his Minister for Finance. It may be an expensive operation. However, in the circumstances where we have not had this Fire Services Council in operation, the Bundoran incident should be the subject of a public sworn inquiry. If in the future tragedies happen—and they will —and the Fire Services Council are operating and the machinery is there and can be put into operation immediately, so be it. Immediately you can set up an inquiry using the Fire Services Council. The circumstances of this tragedy are such that it is in the national interest in the broadest sense that this tribunal should proceed under the terms of reference laid down by the previous administration. I think they cover particularly the points to be inquired into. The Minister could broaden them if he wanted to. I appeal to him to change his course on this. Quite sincerely I say to him, Sir "You and your Government are wrong in your attitude to it".

Mr. P. Barry

If the Deputy had followed the advice he is giving me, this inquiry would be over and the results would have been published before he left office, because the fire took place in August 1980 and Fianna Fáil left office in June 1981. The Deputy says I should reverse my decision and not have a closed mind. I do not have a closed mind. The only decision the Government have come to is that they will hold an inquiry. When this Bill is through they will make up their minds what form the inquiry will take. We can make a very quick decision once the Bill becomes law. We may have a public inquiry or we may opt for the council, but if there is a public inquiry we can go ahead with it immediately.

The Director of Public Prosecutions has decided there is no prosecution he can make on the basis of the Garda report. We are trying to learn from this tragedy whether there are rules, regulations or directions we can give to hotel owners that will prevent a similar occurrence.

We have not made as much progress today as Deputy Burke or I would like and I accept his assurance that we are going to get this Bill quickly. When the Bill is law we can decide which course to take.

Mr. Connolly

Paragraph (d) states:

carry out an investigation into any fire or any operation of an emergency nature to which section 25 relates and make a report thereon to the Minister.

If the fire council are carrying out an inquiry can they arrange, in law, to subpoena witnesses to attend the tribunal? If they do not have that right this Bill is useless. The Bundoran inquiry should be held under the 1921 Act, which sets out the necessary guidelines. It will be presided over by a judge of the High Court. He has the right to call witnesses and, if they do not attend, the law is brought into operation. It does not state in the Bill that if the Minister of the day sets up an inquiry the council can subpoena witnesses. Will witnesses give evidence under oath at such an inquiry or will it be an ordinary hearing, like a planning appeal where a person may turn up if he wishes? I would not be happy if the inquiry into the Bundoran disaster was handed over to the fire council because their terms of reference are not wide enough.

Mr. Mervyn Taylor

Deputy Connolly has a very valid point which perhaps needs to be amplified. An inquiry would have little power unless there was power of subpoena. I presume such an inquiry would have made available to it statements giving the results of the findings of technical officers. I would regard it as important that those statements and reports should be readily available to members of the public and in particular to people who might have been injured in the fire or to the relatives of people who might have tragically lost their lives in that fire. When a road accident occurs a members of the public can write to the investigating Garda superintendent, obtain a report on the occurrence and a copy of the statement made by all the witnesses. It is not just the question on the criminal side that is being dealt with in this Bill — making any guilty parties amenable — but there is the civil law side, where the relatives of a person who lost his life, or a person injured in a fire, wish to set about claiming damages against a party who was in breach of his responsibilities under the Bill. What frequently happens in this kind of situation is that the technical reports of the investigators are denied to members of the public and they find themselves at a serious disadvantage when trying to make a claim for damages against a potentially guilty party. They would need access to those technical reports to enable them to put their case together.

All too often in the past when members of the public looked to Government Departments for technical reports of the investigators they were not made available. They were given the reply that this was a private matter in the Department and the reports were not available to the public. That is a wrong principle. I would like to see it written into the Bill that all this technical information should be readily available to any member of the public on payment of a nominal fee.

Mr. P. Barry

I want to say one or two things about the council and the relationship it might have with a public sworn inquiry. Immediately a tragedy occurs there is nothing to prevent the Minister of the day asking the council to investigate the matter. He would appoint somebody technically competent to hold an inquiry into the causes of the fire and see what should be done to prevent such an occurrence in the future. That inquiry would submit a report to the Minister who may decide to make it public. The reason why it is not written into the Bill that it should be made public in all cases is because that would be the first investigation to be carried out. It would be faster than a Garda inquiry and, certainly, would be a lot quicker than a public sworn inquiry. If the Minister published the report it could have a bearing on court cases that might follow afterwards.

Mr. Mervyn Taylor

It was not so much a report I was talking about as the statements of the witnesses, the technical officers who examined the situation. That is what I am concerned about more than the actual findings of the council.

Mr. P. Barry

I would envisage that in submitting their findings to the Minister the council would also submit the documents and the evidence on which those findings were based. They would be embodied into a full report at that stage which the Minister would in most cases publish. Obviously, the Garda in most cases will be investigating a tragedy and that investigation will be operating concurrently with the investigation of the council. If it was decided that this was not sufficient, a public sworn inquiry could run concurrently. The purpose of an investigation by the council is to give the Minister quickly a factual assessment of what happened in a tragedy.

Mr. Raphael Burke

To give a factual report of what happened is only one part of the terms of reference of the tribunal of inquiry into the Bundoran tragedy, as laid before the House by the previous administration. The second part was to make recommendations, not just a speedy report to the effect that something happened or that a hose did not work. The second part was to make such recommendations as the tribunal, having regard to its findings, thought proper in respect of statutory and other provisions in relation to fire, fire prevention and means and systems of emergency escape from fires in hotels, their adequacy and enforcement and any other matters that the tribunal considered relevant.

Mr. P. Barry

That would be part of the report to the Minister.

Mr. Raphael Burke

Did the Minister say he envisaged a Garda inquiry, an inquiry by the fire council and, in a particular instance, a public inquiry would be going on at the same time?

Mr. P. Barry

Yes, it is possible but it is unlikely to happen. It would take some time to set up the tribunal because the order would have to be passed by the House. A month may elapse before the public inquiry would start but an inquiry by the council could be put into motion quickly, possibly on the same day as the occurrence. Memories would be better then. The Garda investigation would also commence very quickly after the occurrence but, because of the machinery involved in establishing a public inquiry, that would take more time. However, there could be an overlap.

Mr. Raphael Burke

It does not take a long time. I should like to remind the Minister that the Stardust tragedy took place on a Friday night-Saturday morning and on the following Tuesday the terms of reference of the tribunal of inquiry into the disaster were debated here. There is no need for delay if the Government act with due care and attention in the public interest, as was the position in relation to the Stardust tragedy. It appears that we are not going to get any further information from the Minister on the Bundoran situation. The debate on the Bill will not conclude tonight and I hope the Minister will reconsider his decision and be in a position to tell us when we consider this matter again that he has decided to hold a public inquiry.

Mr. P. Barry

The Stardust disaster occurred on 14 February and the formal opening of the public inquiry took place on 12 March but it was adjourned immediately and reconvened on 6 April.

Mr. Raphael Burke

But the Dáil had agreed the terms of reference much earlier.

Mr. P. Barry

I am aware of that, but I am referring to the actual inquiry. The duty of the fire council is to establish an inquiry within hours of the event occurring and that is the difference.

Mr. Connolly

If an inquiry is to be set up into any disaster there will have to be legal powers to subpoena witnesses or else it is no use. This comes back to what I was referring to earlier, the need for extra personnel to implement the provisions of the Bill. Extra expert personnel will also be needed for the fire council but the Minister's good friend, the Minister for Finance, has put an embargo on recruiting extra staff.

Mr. Raphael Burke

The Minister is not as good a friend of the Minister for Finance as Peter Prendergast is.

Mr. P. Barry

I should like to ask Deputy Burke to put down a question to me about the number of people who were recruited into the Department of the Environment in the last 12 months.

Mr. Raphael Burke

I will.

Mr. P. Barry

And I will give the Deputy an answer.

Mr. Connolly

The Minister is trying to derail me because of the point I am asking.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will keep the Deputy on the right track.

Mr. Connolly

The Minister is trying to get away from the crunch question, the appointment of additional staff while the embargo is in operation. The Minister has said that he can decide what he is going to refer to the council for inquiry, but that is very vague. It appears that it will depend on the Minister's interpretation of what is a major item. The Minister, and the Government, feel that the Bundoran disaster was not serious enough to warrant a public inquiry, but there is no doubt that the main obstacle to holding such an inquiry is the lack of finance. The Minister for Finance has his hands tightly on the public purse. That is the kernal of the problem.

Mr. P. Barry

It is a pity they did not have their hands tied on the purse in the past four years.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.