Deputy David Andrews is in possession and has ten minutes remaining.
Private Members' Business. - Crime Prevention: Motion (resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the extent and level of crime, violence and lawlessness in this country at present amounts to a serious emergency and calls on the Government to undertake immediately, a comprehensive national campaign to deal with the situation as a matter of extreme urgency and for the purpose of this campaign to:
(1) involve local authorities, voluntary organisations and education authorities,
(2) provide all the equipment and resources necessary, and
(3) recruit adequate numbers of Gardaí and other personnel.
—(Deputy G. Collins).
Last evening I referred to the possibility of community councils, residents associations and so on liaising with the Garda Síochána as custodians of their local communities. I referred also to the question of a police authority and other related matters.
This evening I should like to discuss the question of bail and its general effect on the minds and morale of the Garda Síochána and of the general public. In any democratic society there must be a balance between what is good for the community as a whole and the liberty of the individual. There are a number of areas of the legal system in which the Garda authorities and the general public must feel a great degree of concern. Surely one of the most vital of these is that of the granting of bail. How many times have proven and hardened criminals been granted bail only to commit further and probably more heinous crimes? My views are not a criticism of the courts but rather an observation of a curable problem for which we in this House must have the answer.
There are two criteria for the granting of bail arising out of the Supreme Court decision in the O'Callaghan case: (1) will the individual during his bail interfere with witnesses, and (2) will he abscond the jurisdiction or not answer to his bail?
If a person charged with murder is released on bail and commits a second murder totally unrelated to the first charge, then he may well be entitled to bail a second time. Having raised the problem on this and a number of other occasions and having heard the present Minister for Justice being loud in his concern for the whole area of bail, this is an opportune time to raise the subject again.
I now propose a solution which may not find acceptance within the hierarchy of the Minister's Department or on the part of the Minister himself. There is an answer to this gap in the legal system. It is possible for the Minister for Justice to introduce legislation in this House to solve this very serious problem. Unfortunately, that legislation might well fail the test of its constitutionality. On the other hand, crimes committed on bail are usually taken into account when sentencing for the original offence or offences. The sentences usually run concurrently. However there is a view that these sentences, in the circumstances I have just outlined, should run consecutively. I will leave the subject of bail because it is one worthy of a debate in its own right. May I take this opportunity of wishing the Minister of State well in his Department; he is a worthy incumbent and I wish him every success. But I would urge on the Minister to include in the Government's Dáil programme a discussion on this whole area of bail.
Another matter I raised last evening was the position of young people and the drugs menace. We all know, and it is has been stated, that the Garda Drug Squad are doing an exceptional job in attempting to curb this dreadful social disease which may well have reached or will reach epidemic proportions among our young people. My information is that the drugs graph has gone through the roof. that the prevalence of pushers and traffickers has become a very serious problem. Of course the school authorities have a primary role to play in this area and must maintain constant vigilance. They must also maintain the momentum of the courses they conduct on the evils of drugs. Generally the pusher will not be found in the classroom. Rather will he be found plying his deadly trade outside the school grounds and places frequented by school children.
The drugs scene has become such a problem the Minister might consider, in aid of the Garda Drug Squad and in consultation with them and with the Minister for Education and the schools authorities, full-time school inspectors to help stamp out the threat to our adult young from the menace of drugs and the drugs trafficker or pusher. Society is coming round to the idea that drug addicts should be rehabilitated. That is as it should be. However, it is very difficult to apprehend the really evil people in this whole sordid matter — the drug pushers. No sentence could be long enough or hard enough for these people in our society. We can only wish the Garda Drug Squad well in their continued efforts in their war against the drug pusher.
In the short time remaining to me I should like to bring the attention of the House again to a paper laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas in June 1981 entitled Community Service Orders, a very interesting and worthy paper. I mentioned in the course of my contribution last evening that in the event of a crime being committed in the community — in which young or not so young people are involved — the possibility of forcing these people into purging their transgression against the community should be considered, that they should be asked to recompense the community either in money's worth or in work value. This booklet goes a long way in posing the type of solution to the problem I would envisage. For some time efforts have been made to develop that aspect of dealing with offenders which involves their performing work for the benefit of the community. Over the past few years "suitable prisoners"— the expression used in this booklet — have been released on a daily basis from prisons and places of detention to work on projects within the community. The prisoners are released to do work under the general guidance and control of prison officers. The work they perform is of a kind which is of benefit to the community and which would not be done otherwise. Recently, for example, prisoners were released in the custody of prison officers, through a community project in my constituency of Dún Laoghaire, where they did an exceptional job on an alcoholic or rehabilitation centre, the Hanley Centre, in the heart of Dún Laoghaire. Tribute was paid to the work done by these prisoners. I should like to add my vote of thanks for the opportunity they were afforded to rehabilitate themselves in some small way in recompense for the damage they had done to the community. They completed projects which entailed the construction of a school hall in the Dublin area and the refurbishing of a centre in Dún Laoghaire for the treatment of alcohol-related problems. While the number of prisoners employed under the scheme is relatively small in the context of the total prison population, nonetheless the scheme has proved successful, when measured by the extent of involvement and the effect it has had on the prisoners engaged in it, by the standard of the work being done and the reaction of the various local communities for whom projects have been completed. I believe these people will be accepted by the communities so damaged and I strongly recommend the proposal to the Minister of State and the Minister for Justice. I would ask, in conclusion, that an opportunity be given to discuss this excellent booklet on community services.
I welcome this motion and I am confident that the former Minister, Deputy Collins, has a profound understanding of the subject matter of the motion and I commend his concern in introducing the motion.
We are not alone in experiencing an increase in crime. It is a worldwide phenomenon. In order fully to understand the situation we must look at the changing factors in our society. In particular we must look at the changes occurring in the social and moral fabric of our society. What we are experiencing is not a reflection on the Garda Síochána or on the manner in which they carry out their duties. We must look further to seek out the root cause of the problem. Society itself and each constituent member of society has a part to play if we are to get to grips with the problem of crime. Now I am not convinced that a continuing increase in the number of garda personnel will, of itself, solve the dilemma with which we are faced. For too long the public have turned a blind eye to the commission of crime when a small inconspicious gesture would have been of immense assistance to the Garda in rendering the force far more successful and effective in its attempts to prevent the commission of crime.
The important part that can be played by citizens in the protection of their own property cannot be over-emphasised. This is an area in which we need to raise the level of consciousness. The very least people can do is take the minimum steps necessary when, for example, they are away from home on vacation or otherwise. If they take such steps and engage at the same time the assistance of other members of their community they will carry their share of responsibility and that will be of enormous benefit to the Garda.
It could perhaps be said that the Garda are operating at or perhaps below capacity at the moment and it is therefore all the more important that every member of our society should render every possible assistance to them. This assistance should be given without question. In our private capacity as citizens we have a responsibility and a moral duty to assist the Garda. In the absence of an acceptance of that responsibility and duty we are not playing our part and we cannot expect the Garda Síochána, a body of men which commands the admiration of all, to operate to the utmost of their ability if we on our part are not prepared to undertake our responsibility.
The crux of the matter is that we have set standards of behaviour. These standards are the product of a very democratic system. At times we unfortunately do not seem to have the will to implement these standards and, in the absence of that will, we cannot be successful in combating crime. There is urgent need for all public representatives to give a lead in tackling the problem.
I would like now to refer to certain aspects and types of crime. First there is crime classified as armed robbery. This is a type of crime' towards which I have a personal revulsion. All members of our society must share the same revulsion. Over the last few years the use of firearms has been increasing. The use of firearms at any level in the pursuit of crime is totally unacceptable. We should learn the lessons experienced by other highly organised societies where, over a period of years armed crime has become the rule rather than the exception. Any man or woman who sets out to commit a crime with a firearm in his or her possession is to be condemned. Where he or she claims justification under the pretext of some quasi-political pretext he or she should be subject to the full rigours of the law.
In this area of prevention the community should give its full co-operation and assistance to the Garda. Now is the time to call a halt to the increasing crime. I am optimistic that the prevention strategy recently adopted by the Garda will be successful. Good results are already being shown and hopefully in time society will be rid of this scourge of criminal violence.
Another area of crime is the area of crime committed by juveniles and young persons. There is a kind of acceptance that no matter how well social and other services are developed this phenomenon will always be with us. While that somewhat widely held conviction has a certain amount of credibility, I am sufficiently young in years, possibly over-optimistic, to believe that a great improvement can be achieved in this area. This is an area we must treat with great concern. The figure for crimes committed by young people in the Dublin Metropolitan area is quite alarming. The 1979 survey in the Dublin Metropolitan area in respect of nine different categories of offences, showed that almost 70 per cent of those charged were under 21 years of age. This is a truly alarming statistic and one which must give rise to great concern.
As Deputy Collins pointed out, the fact that the commission of crime can frequently be associated with certain areas in which there is a lack of standards and good living conditions is well established. This is a sad reflection on the effectiveness of successive Governments since the foundation of the State. We have failed to create a more equitable distribution of wealth. We have failed to provide adequate housing. The result of this is the rise in our crime rate, particularly among young people. The fact remains that those areas exist and it will require the combined efforts of all branches of Government, not merely the Department of Justice but also the Departments of Education, Health, Social Welfare and Labour, to create the opportunities and the necessary service for these young people so that they will not resort to crime as a first option. We must give them some hope that they will be able to enter the mainstream of society and carve out a career for themselves rather than resorting to what seems to be their only option at present—a life of crime. It is a sad situation and requires the efforts of every Member of this House to remedy it.
While I am dealing with juvenile crime and the unfortunate situation in relation to juvenile offenders, it would be remiss of me if I did not mention the success being achieved by the juvenile liaison officer scheme. While this scheme was initiated to assist and supervise juveniles who were cautioned as an alternative to being prosecuted and to assist those regarded as potential delinquents, the scope of the service has now been broadened considerably. I welcome the broadening of the service. Through continual contact with parents, teachers, clubs and youth leaders, the juvenile liaison officers have become involved in all types of youth work and youth activity. They are of enormous benefit in our efforts to combat and prevent the commission of crime among young people. Consequently, their work has taken on a significantly community relations dimension. They are now working in close contact with many statutory and voluntary bodies, which would seem to be the practical implementation of the terms of the motion. Their work has broadened far beyond what it was originally set out to do and this is to be commended and encouraged. I look forward to the expansion of this service, because we cannot estimate the good which can result from the increase in the juvenile liaison officer scheme. The day to day work of the scheme has helped the Garda immensely. It has also helped their role in the community by removing many misconceptions and misunderstandings and I believe it will play a major role in the Garda response to juvenile crime.
In relation to the prevention of juvenile crime there is a serious responsibility on parents. They must be prepared to make the effort to provide a stable home life and guidance for their offspring. This is their responsibility and it is only fair to say that this responsibility may have been neglected in modern society. Possibly parents should reflect on these duties and re-assess their position vis-à-vis the children in the household and, if necessary, their lifestyle should be changed to give the proper guidance to young members of the family. Without guidance in the home where can children get good example? It is not sufficient that it is provided in schools and in forums for education if it is not given the necessary backup and encouragement in the family. The present implementation of juvenile justice needs an urgent expansion of the expertise available in the educational and health sectors. We could thwart many young people who might have an inclination to pursue the road of crime and follow in the path of many criminals if we provided the necessary backup at a vital and vulnerable stage in their early careers. It is during the formative years that example must be shown and we as legislators have a responsibility to provide the necessary backup, social services and educational facilities which these young people need.
If these services are provided before young people have committed their first act of crime or perpetrated their first involvement in crime, there is some hope that we may be able to turn them from this path before they are classified as criminals. If we fail to prevent them from entering the mainstream of criminal activity, the damage will have been done and the best efforts of society and the Garda will be in vain. We have an ideal opportunity to make an impression on these young people in their earlier years when they are most vulnerable. There is a serious duty on us as legislators not to let that opportunity go by and not to neglect our young people when it may be very attractive for them to get caught up with their companions on the streets and to engage in criminal activity. They do not realise the alternative and the rewards to be gained from entering into the mainstream of a stable society. That should be their aim and it should be the Government's commitment to provide the facilities for them to enter into this mainstream.
With regard to the juvenile liaison officer scheme, I look forward to an expansion of the services already provided and which are doing excellent work. I am hopeful that by expansion of the services the necessary results will be achieved. The problem of juvenile justice was under examination for many years until very recently by the task force on child care services. The enormity of the task with which this forum was faced cannot be underestimated. I am glad to see their conclusions have been presented to the House. The only regret is that, due to various unfortunate circumstances involved in the presentation of the report, possibly there was the tendency in the intervening period to allow necessary reform and legislation to be held over until the task force had presented its report. The report of the task force and the supplementary report have to be commended, but it is regrettable that we had a tendency in the intervening period to wait for the results. Certain steps could have been taken in the interim. However, now that the task force have presented their report we must proceed to implement their recommendations as a matter of urgency. I am aware that the Minister for Health is preparing recommendations based on the task force report and this is to be welcomed.
I appreciate the words of welcome expressed by Deputy Andrews. He referred to the community service orders and to the paper which was presented to the House some time ago. The implementation of the community service orders will add a new dimension to the prevention of crime and to the price paid by the criminal to society. In the instances outlined by the Deputy of where crimes are committed which are very recognisable as being against specific members of society compared with crimes committed against the community at large and where damage is done to housing estates and other private property, I recommend the work done in bringing in the community services orders. It is a very acceptable form of punishment for this type of crime. Legislation in that respect is being prepared and we hope to be able to introduce it at an early date. It is a move that must be welcomed by all responsible Members of the House and I look forward to its implementation.
The question of drugs has been mentioned frequently in the house recently. The problem in this area is one which cannot be overstated. While it is receiving serious consideration from the Garda it remains a very serious problem. We cannot underestimate the dangers attaching to crime in the drugs area. Permanent drug units operate in Dublin, Cork and Limerick and members in each Garda division have undergone advanced courses in drug investigation. The Government view with concern the growth in drug abuse that has been developed in the past number of years. I regret to say that this growth has not been confined to soft drugs. Hard drugs also, such as heroin, began to be sold on the streets on a regular basis during the last half of 1980. Pharmacists are being faced increasingly with demands from youths for drugs. The commissioner is taking special measures aimed at counteracting the break-ins in pharmacies, an area of crime which has been on the increase in recent times.
The abuse of drugs is not confined to any particular area of crime but it leads to involvement in other areas of crime. Inevitably and regrettably the user of hard drugs will become a pusher in order to support the habit. This, in turn, accounts for the rapid spread of the abuse. To support this evil and sad habit the drug abuser requires vast sums of money which on average he has no way of coming by in the normal course of events. Once hooked he will not stop at anything to ensure that he can continue to support his regular supply. This leads to an increase in the general crime rate. The good liaison between the Garda and the customs service will continue to make matters difficult for importers of illegal drugs. The Garda have built up excellent relations with the community from whom information is regularly forthcoming. This is a very important part of crime detection. In this area which can have devastating effects on our community, both young and old, such co-operation is of added importance.
Parents call constantly on Dublin Castle for help and I must make it known that help and advice are willingly given and will be given at all times in this problem. It is the intention of the Garda that pushers and traffickers will be brought to task for their vile crime. These people are making profits out of the unfortunate drug problem and in the process are wrecking the lives of many young people who are unfortunate enough not to be able to resist the temptation to try drugs initially, and will be brought to justice. I expect that many young people take drugs for kicks in the first instance but find themselves inevitably going down the slippery slope until they find themselves with serious medical and other problems.
If these pushers and traffickers can be brought to justice for their vile crimes and put out of commission so that the supply of drugs can dry up, we can expect a consequent reduction in the problem. Mainly the problem is a social one and other agencies and parents in particular can make an even greater impact on it than can the Garda.
I should like to clarify certain points raised yesterday in the debate in relation to the accommodation at the Garda Training Centre at Templemore and in particular to the proposed take-over of the Army block there. I tread warily in this matter having regard to Deputy Collins's expertise in this field. The Deputy referred to plans which he had in mind to increase the intake of recruits to Templemore. He will be aware that the maximum number of recruits that can be accommodated there is 300. When the Deputy was Minister for Justice he was in the position of trying to arrange for extra recruitment accommodation by way of having a large building within the training centre made available for Garda use. This building is used by the Army and they have indicated that they are prepared in principle to hand over this block for Garda use subject to certain conditions. I must emphasise that it has been only since the previous Minister left office that a formal undertaking has been given to hand over this building and that the conditions have been spelled out. Among other conditions, the Army authorities require that extensive alternative Army accommodation be provided before the building in question is handed over. Therefore, agreement must be reached in relation to these conditions and it is possible that the alternative Army accommodation will have to be built before the Garda take possession of the Army block. However, the accommodation position of the Garda will not be improved on the taking over of this building because it is in a very bad state of repair. This includes rising damp and a roof that is suspect to the extent that we do not know how much attention it may need. The building is very old and needs to be completely gutted and refitted. It needs new floors and new stairs as well as plumbing, heating and rewiring in addition to all the other ancilliary facilities. That would be a major job but the question is yet to be decided as to whether the better solution might be to knock it completely and to build a new specifically designed block on the site.
It would be unrealistic to pretend that all the necessary planning, tendering and building work could be completed in less than approximately two years. The accommodation available in Templemore for the time being will impose certain constraints on the level of recruitment. I commend this motion because it will help to raise the level of consciousness inside and outside the House to the need to tackle the problems facing our society, serious crime problems and rising criminal activity. I can say that the Government will tackle this problem with every power available to us.
The introduction of this motion by Deputy Gerry Collins is timely. It is a very important motion and I hope the contributions made in the debate will alert us to the necessity for immediate and positive action to rid our cities and towns of outrageous acts of violence and lawlessness. Deputy Gerry Collins has given tremendous service to the Department of Justice, and the motion in his name must be viewed in that light. I hope whatever Deputy Collins as Minister for Justice embarked on will be brought to fruition by his successor.
We must not be under any illusion that Garda stations and extra gardaí on foot and in motor patrols will solve the problem of crime. It is essential that maximum security will be available to protect our people and our property. But this will be of no avail if people do not co-operate to the fullest extent with our security forces. I believe there is a danger that people are prepared to accept all this violence as part of presentday living. People are searching for a reason for all the turmoil in our community. Is it a lack of education, is it our social living or the frustration of living? It is terrorising the people, whatever the reason for it is, and action must be taken immediately to minimise this upsurge in crime.
Young and old people are no longer safe from the vandals who roam the streets in search of innocent victims or the satisfaction gained from destroying public or private property. Old people who were once respected are now the targets of vandals. People are crying out for action and this must be taken by the Government with the co-operation of all parties in the House.
Nobody is seeking political advantage in this debate. We are seeking a concerted plan where everybody has a part to play in ensuring we have the security everybody desires. Cork city, which I represent, is no different from any other place where lawlessness is concerned. There is an urgent need to strengthen the Garda force, backed up by additional patrol cars. There is an urgent need to expedite the erection of Garda stations which have already been approved in the Blackrock, Gurranebraher and Mayfield areas of Cork city. I would also like the Minister to ensure that the telecommunications system in the Garda headquarters at Union Quay is urgently completed. Those things are essential in every part of the country as well as in Cork city and would be a major step in the prevention and detection of crime.
I want to pay tribute to the Garda force in Cork city especially for their dedication to duty and their alertness recently in preventing major robberies and apprehending the people involved. I cannot lay sufficient emphasis on the importance of the co-operation of the public with the security forces. This is very necessary for speedy detection and the prevention of further acts of violence. Unsolved crime encourages further crime.
Drugs and over-indulgence in alcohol, especially among young people, is now a major problem in our society. The experts in crime tell us that 80 per cent of violence and vandalism is attributable to drugs and alcohol abuse. We can read every day of court proceedings where the common plea very often is "committed under the influence of alcohol". Unfortunately this excuse is too often accepted by some of our learned judges and District Court justices. The Minister should examine the possibility of introducing identity cards at 13 years of age. It is sad to pass a licensed premises and see young people aged 10, 12 and 13 years leaving it. One must ask who is serving drink to those people and who are the people witnessing this taking place? We must give very serious consideration to under-age drinking. I have no doubt the Minister has endless representations from the people involved in the development of young people regarding this very important matter of alcohol drinking at an early age.
Drug peddling and drug abuse is at a stage where people are alarmed especially the parents of young children going to school. I suggest that we ask the Minister for Health to consider reviewing the Drug Abuse Act. I have no doubt it needs updating. I was a member of the all-party committee who formulated that measure under the chairmanship of the then Minister for Health, Deputy Corish. Last week on my way to the station, I was saddened to see from my taxi young boys and girls of about 12 years in a circle sniffing glue from a plastic bag. I do not think the Act I referred to has any provision to deal with such matters and that is why I ask the Minister present to mention this matter to the Minister for Health with the objective of reviewing the Act.
We are fortunate that the majority of young people are responsible citizens. They must be protected from the irresponsible people crawling around our cities and towns, in dancehalls and discos, in public houses, schools, colleges and universities, in search of innocent young people who are unaware of the consequences of drug indulgence. This is the concern of all. Every effort must be made to stamp out this soul-destroying practice. No effort or money should be spared to bring to justice the people involved in drug peddling. They are everywhere.
I have devoted much of my life to young people and I am very interested in their development. I know the part they can play in this matter. In their own interest and in the interest of all other people, if they have information of people involved in drug peddling I ask them to bring it to the notice of the Garda authorities where they will be assured the matter will be treated in the strictest confidence. The young people know the people who are involved in drug peddling. I appeal to all young people, to youth clubs and organisations, to give any information they have to the Garda authorities. This is in their own interests and in the interest of the country generally. I know that young people have this information but they may be reluctant or afraid to come forward. They may be frightened of being brought to court and they may fear serious consequences for themselves. I have no doubt the Minister will assure them that any information given about this matter will be treated in the strictest confidence by the Garda authorities.
I appeal to the Minister to increase the numbers in the Garda Drug Squad in order to ensure effective policing in this area. I have had dealings with the Garda Drug Squad in Cork and I know they are few in number, but their task is great. If we are serious about eliminating drug peddling and drug abuse we will have to spend more money and train more gardaí to carry out this work.
Unfortunately many people involved in crime are the victims of violence and broken homes. Present-day society is paying for its neglect. We have failed to provide an adequate service to help these people. Money does not solve all problems. The involvement of voluntary groups is most important but there is a lack of professional involvement in this area. A well-organised community association can be very effective. When we talk of vandals and criminals we are talking of people who live in our community. I am very disappointed at the lack of professional involvement in the work of community associations. There is a crying need for professional people to help. A Government cannot afford to pour millions of pounds into every undertaking. In my view the voluntary effort is always the most effective. I hope as a result of this debate that doctors, social workers, nurses and such people who have a wealth of experience will become involved in the work of community associations. As I said, as a society we failed to provide an adequate service and we have to suffer for that neglect.
I have been informed that work on the juvenile detention centre at Cork has been postponed. I hope that is not true. I should like an assurance from the Minister that this worthwhile undertaking, which was approved by the former Minister for Justice, Deputy Collins, has not been shelved. I know of the tremendous work carried out in Cork jail. The young people were brought from the jail environment into the community and they performed very useful community work. I hope this worthwhile project will not be postponed because of lack of money. That would be disastrous for all those involved in helping young people. Many a boy or girl who never had the security of a home found some comfort, understanding and dedication to their welfare in the detention centre in Cork. I congratulate Cork prison wardens for their dedication. Their success has surpassed all our expectations.
Further examination must be given by the Minister to a proper back-up service for those released from prison. One can imagine young persons after serving a sentence of two or three years suddenly finding the prison gates open to them. At least they had some security in the prison. There should be greater liaison between the prison authorities and AnCO so that when young people are released they may be admitted to one of the AnCO training centres. We should show interest in young people who have served their sentences. It is important to them to know that on release there is a caring community outside the walls of a prison. We have failed here. We all know of young boys and girls who, within a month of being released, are involved in crime again for the simple reason they had no-one to take an interest in their welfare when they left prison. Some people might say we are talking about money but there are many who would pay substantial sums of money today if they were assured of peace and security.
We failed in the past to use the existing readymade structures such as youth clubs, youth organisations and sports organisations. I pay tribute to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for the work he did while in office. I assure him that it does not go without recognition. What better place than a club or organisation such as scouting and so on for young people to know what is happening in their community? Here they would be face to face with the realities of living.
There is no point in anybody saying after this debate that they will examine this and see what can be done. It is too important for that. I strongly recommend, and I am sure Deputy Collins had the same thing in mind, the setting up of an all-party committee of the House so that once and for all we could bring about an awareness of what should be done, what could be done and the kind of co-operation we will be looking for from people. We would fail now in everything done so far if we were not fully assured that some machinery would be set up to bring together responsible people and those with experience, Members of the House, members of the Garda, health boards and local authorities, to formulate definite plans. Will we wait until it is too late and there is more turmoil on the streets?
The first indication of a young person going on a wayward track is non-attendance at school. More school attendance officers are needed who are specially trained to cope with a situation of advising a young person and his family. This is something we should give careful consideration to because in my work I have found that where a boy or girl does not attend school there is a tendency for them to go in the wrong direction. This is more properly for the Department of Education. Security, which comes under the Department of Justice, is very broad and involves practically every Department. I wish to emphasise the importance of something concrete coming from this discussion. I was most interested in much of what we said and everyone gave their fullest co-operation during the debate.
This motion is all-embracing, to echo the sentiments of the Minister last night. It deals with the level of crime and violence we have at present. Effectively, and this is a very valid distinction, we have two types of crime. There is subversive crime and crime committed by individuals or gangs with no alleged political motive which is not a threat to the well-being of the State but poses one to the well-being of the people living in it. On a motion such as this, and in the circumstances in which we find ourselves with the tragic events that have occurred on this island in the last ten days, it behoves all Members to speak on the motion and condemn the acts that have occurred, and, without hesitation, to call on those whose violent deeds are causing so much sorrow to people living in both communities in the North of Ireland and in the South to put down the gun and try to allow politicians on this island to deal with these political problems. It behoves us in this House to state that the actions that have occurred on this island in the past ten days are merely prolonging the agony and suffering of both sections of the community in the North and adding to the feeling of instability and causing great concern to all of us living in the South. We must come to grips with the problem facing us. It is not easy but I hope all of us in this House can tackle it in a constructive way without trying to score party political points or engaging in politicking with some electoral gain in view.
We have heard for a number of years that it is a matter of concern to the majority community in the North of this island that there are difficulties about extradition. The law does not permit us in this country to extradite persons whom the courts find charged with political crimes. This holds in most European countries. There is nothing different in the approach of this country from that of other members of the EEC and of other democratic countries around the world. It behoves us to find a solution to ensure that the men of violence, no matter in which part of this island they are living, are brought to heel and to justice for the acts they commit. In this regard I hope I have the support of Members opposite. I welcome the fact that the Attorneys General of the UK and this country are investigating the possibility of establishing an all-Ireland court. I see much merit in it, in that it can get round some of the legal difficulties we have in both parts of this island at the moment. It may help not merely in bringing to justice some of these responsible for the acts of murder that have occurred but may, if and when the possibility arises of establishing such a court, contribute to a greater degree of understanding among all of us living on this island.
In the little time I have I would like briefly to make one or two remarks in relation to what I call the non-subversive areas of crime. I do not wish to score party political points, but I view with a certain degree of cynicism some of the comments made by Members opposite. They had four years in Government in which to introduce reforms at administrative and procedural levels to combat crime. Generally speaking there was little change. Some of the legislation was postponed while committees looked into matters. As we all know, on occasion committees are formed simply to postpone decision-making. In this context I refer to two reports in particular which were published and whose recommendations I hope to see implemented in the future. One is the task force report on child care services which deals not only with the problem of children who need to be taken into care but also with children and criminal matters. In that report recommendations were made with regard to changes in the courts as they deal with children, and a variety of other recommendations deal with what the courts suggest should be a special juvenile force within the Garda Síochána. The Minister, the Minister of State and Members opposite have also referred to the juvenile liaison system whose work has made a real contribution to the community not merely in dealing with crime but also after the event. I hope that we can develop a juvenile liaison force in the Garda Síochána on the lines laid down in the task force report. It is difficult to understand why that type of comprehensive approach was not implemented by the previous Government.
I was very pleased indeed with the contributions made to this debate by all who participated in it. Deputy Shatter as a new Deputy will forgive me for not taking up one or two points he raised. He will appreciate that there is a time restriction on me. If he wants to find out why more Garda members are not involved in the juvenile liaison force that can be explained very simply by his own Minister. If men are to go into the juvenile liaison force those men must be taken out of uniform and as it is we have not enough men in uniform.
A number of facts emerged from this debate which is the first debate I have heard in this House which could be described as non-political. Nobody from this side or from the Government side was interested in scoring political points. That is as it should be because the problem is extremely serious. There is a soaring crime rate and the best efforts of our Gardaí — and they are excellent — are not good enough to protect society and the people. That is why I came to this House with the motion in my name and that of the Chief Whip of my party, to have a fair, proper, straightforward discussion of the extent of the problem so that we might come up with something worthwhile and constructive that would assist those who need protection.
It was sad to hear during the course of the debate that despite the soaring crime rate which we all agree is there, the last report of the Garda Commissioner on crime has shown an even higher increase. Despite that it has been revealed to the House that the Garda Commissioner can expect only an extra 300 gardaí by the end of 1982. If the situation is as serious as we all say it is, surely the Government will take upon themselves to look at this in a new light, to find a new approach, a new way to give the Garda Commissioner the additional manpower he requires immediately, and which he has said he does not want piecemeal. He was given a commitment by the last Government that he would be given the 2,000 additional members of the force that he wants. He was given that commitment because in his report to me in August 1980 he set out a blueprint to deal with subversive and ordinary crime. He spelled out the requirements and needs for September and October 1980. That commitment was given by me on behalf of the Government. His complete recommendation and his full report were acceptable to us in Government at the time and would have been implemented by me or by my successor if we were still in Government. I am satisfied that if we are going to give only 300 additional men by the end of 1982 we are not being as determined as we should be to stamp out crime. That is why I said during the course of my earlier contribution to this debate that I had hoped we would have only 300 new gardaí trained by the end of 1982.
Last April when I was discussing with the Garda Commissioner how best we could proceed as rapidly as possible to get more people into the force, he told me — and it should be on the files in the Department — that the Army Chief of Staff, who has since retired, told him there were no difficulties in giving him the Army barracks in Templemore which could be used for training Garda recruits. I accept what the Minister of State said that formal approval of this request has come through only now. If it has taken seven months to get formal approval for something I was told could be done there and then, there is something wrong somewhere. I am not blaming anybody, but somebody needs to be shaken up a little so that progress can be made more quickly and the urgency of the situation can be attended to.
The Minister of State may not have been briefed on this point because it is not an area in which he normally works, but as long ago as 18 months or two years, I was told by the Garda Commissioner that the block in Templemore was a likely site, if we wanted it, for a Garda officer college.
Why was it not done then?
Because at that time part of another building was used for a Garda officer college.
Why was it not used for recruitment?
In a debate of this kind the Deputy should not be interrupted.
I listened to the Minister of State without interrupting him. I have nine minutes to make my case, but if I have a question and answer session with the Minister I will not have time to cover all the points I wanted to make.
Deputy Collins can rely on the Chair to ensure that there will not be a question and answer session.
I am delighted the Chair is alive to his responsibilities.
Tonight the Minister of State and last night the Minister for Justice said they were not convinced that the continuous increase in Garda members would help defeat crime. If they believe that they are living in a fool's paradise. Even with the additional 2,000 members who were recruited in my time there are still not enough members of the Garda. Every Member of this House should know there are Garda divisions in this and other cities where there are not enough men to put even one, two or three men on street patrol. One should look at the places like Ballyfermot, Ballymun and Tallaght and one will see the position. There is not sufficient manpower in these areas because of men on the shift rotation system, men in court and men doing other duties which people like Deputy Shatter believe can be done by waving a stick and transferring men from one section to another. It does not work like that.
There is a need for more men on the force and it does not do justice to anybody in the House, particularly the Minister, to say he is not convinced more garda are needed. If this is the advice he is getting he should look elsewhere, and he cannot look to a better person than the Garda Commissioner because he is the only professional man who can give him the benefit of his professional advice, and he says he wants an additional 2,000 members on the force.
Last night I said I will be the Minister's best friend when he comes to this House looking for extra money to provide extra men, even 5,000, if the Garda Commissioner needs them. I have heard it said that the Drug Squad are doing tremendous work. They are. Everybody knows that if people need money for drugs they will steal, rob, mug and do every criminal act to get that money. The drug problem — and these are the words used by the Minister for Justice in an interview with a journalist of an evening paper about two months ago — is of crisis proportions. Even with the recent increase of an additional six members to the Drug Squad, the entire squad of 26 people is not big enough to deal with the problem. That is why I asked the Minister for Justice two weeks ago to set up a body, perhaps under the chairmanship of a member of the Judiciary, to inquire into the extent of the drug problem. During my term in office, I am on the record as saying that nobody in the Department of Justice could tell me the extent of the drug problem in Ireland today. If there is somebody now in the Department who could give me that information I would be glad to have his advice. I would like the Government to set up a body to inquire into that area and see what could be done in this area.
In our courts today people were charged with the manufacture and having in their possession drugs to the value of £2.5 million. Imagine the havoc this would wreak on our young people if these drugs had not been found. Of course, we only hear about the drugs that are found.
It is common talk amongst the teaching profession and others involved in voluntary organisations that the drugs problem is far greater than we know. We cannot tackle the problem as it should be tackled until we know the extent of the problem. I have suggested that a national campaign should be mounted by the Minister for Justice on behalf of the Government so that we can, as a matter of extreme urgency, deal with rising crime trends. We must involve in this campaign not just the Garda Síochána who are doing their best — and would do better if there were more men — but we must involve local authorities because they have an important role to play particularly in the ghetto areas in our cities and towns. They have an important role to play in the areas of planning, development and the provision of recreational facilities.
There are parts of this city — and it is a shame on everybody in this House and in society — where families of eight or ten are living in one or two rooms without the basic facilities of bathrooms or toilets. I have great sympathy with the Minister of State when he says children must be given guidance from the home. That is a cry in the dark. How can they get guidance from a home where the father has been unemployed for many years, and there is little likelihood he will ever get a job, where the mother too is unemployed, or she might be lucky enough to have an office cleaning job. It is very difficult to get guidance there because these people have no hope for the future and they probably despair for their children's future. Children of 12 and 14 years of age in these ghetto-like areas which we tolerate, steal cars the same as other children play football, and believe there is nothing wrong with that. They steal handbags and snatch purses from old ladies causing terrible distress because they believe there is a need for them to steal and therefore they are entitled to steal. This is their way of life. They feel entitled to steal, especially if they believe they will not be caught.
We must involve the Department of the Environment and the industrial training agencies in these areas because employment is an important factor in keeping people away from crime. Our health and welfare agencies must also be involved because they have an important role to play. Our educational agencies should teach these people to read and write because there is evidence that many of these children when leaving national schools cannot read or write. We must pay attention to this. We have to involve the voluntary organisations. Those who have contributed to the debate have paid credit to those organisations for the tremendous work they are doing.
It is fair to say that in our cities and throughout the country we have voluntary organisations doing very important work and if they were not involved in it many more people would be suffering because of lack of attention of State Departments and State agencies. A lot of work can be done. If we do something now, something that perhaps we should have done ten years ago, we will probably have fewer people involved in crime. If we had the courage, the wisdom and the determination to do something some years ago the situation would be different. Let me truthfully say, and I condemn myself before I will condemn any other man, if we had the interest in doing something things would be different. If we did not have the interest ten years ago, maybe in this day and age we might have the interest to do something now. I will give every help possible on behalf of my party to any worthwhile proposal that comes from the Government in relation to this area because I believe we owe it to the children in those ghetto areas who seemingly are nobody's children and who, as sure as day follows night, will be criminals unless we do something for them.
Question put and agreed to.