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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Nov 1981

Vol. 331 No. 2

Protection of Young Persons (Prohibition on Employment of Children) Order, 1981: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the following Order in draft:—

Protection of Young Persons (Prohibition on Employment of Children) Order, 1981

a copy of which Order in draft was laid before Dáil Éireann on 10th July, 1981.

The motion seeks the approval of Dáil Éireann for a draft order under section 4 (6), (b) of the Protection of Young Persons (Employment) Act, 1977, to prohibit the employment of children over 14 and under 15 years of age during school terms except second level students participating in work experience or other similar educational courses arranged or approved of by the Minister for Education.

The 1977 Act generally prohibits the employment of children, that is persons under 15 years. However, the Act provided for the employment of children over 14 and under 15 years for specified periods during school terms and also for specified periods during school holidays. When the Act was introduced in 1977 there was considerable debate on the issue of children working during school term. Those opposed to the employment of children during school term pointed to the fact that work for the under 15s could have a detrimental effect on their education. Those arguing for such employment pointed to the economic necessity of children to supplement family incomes and the need for those who will be leaving school at 15 to get to know the world of work.

The Act stipulates that children between 14 and 15 years of age can do light non-industrial work which should not be harmful to their health or moral development and must not prejudice their performance or attendance at school. The Act therefore in my view attempted to strike a balance between the two opposing viewpoints. On the one hand it outlawed the general employment of children between 14 and 15 on a full-time basis, yet allowed them to work limited hours if such work did not affect their development or education. The compromise eventually agreed was that the provisions which permitted children between 14 and 15 to work during school terms would lapse after two years unless the provisions were extended on an annual basis by affirmative order. Affirmative orders were made extending the life of the provisions in 1979 and in 1980. The provisions finally lapsed on 4 July 1981.

It is my view that children between 14 and 15 cannot work for up to two hours a day during school term without such work affecting their physical and mental development. For this reason I am proposing that such work for children between 14 and 15 be completely outlawed. While children are compulsorily attending school, I believe that everything possible must be done to ensure that they benefit to the greatest extent possible from such education.

I would point out that children will still be free to work for the periods specified in the Act during school holidays should they choose to do so. I believe the present order considerably improves the legislation. A further problem which remains to be tackled is the problem of enforcement of this legislation and I am at the moment examining ways in which this can be improved both administratively and by way of amending the original Act if necessary.

I also believe the terms of the legislation need once more to be brought to the attention of the public in general as almost everybody should in some way be affected by this legislation, especially young people, parents, employers, teachers, youth clubs and trade unions.

A campaign to bring the terms of the legislation to the attention of the public was mounted when the original legislation was passed and I believe the time is now ripe once more for such a campaign. Following a review of how enforcement of the legislation can be improved it would be my intention to undertake such a campaign. I commend the Order to the House.

I want to say on behalf of the Opposition that we welcome this motion for the protection of young people and for the prevention of the employment of school-going children between 14 and 15 years. When the Act was going through the House in 1977 it was argued that, in certain cases, children would have to be employed in order to supplement the income of the home. The most important years of people's lives are the years when they are attending school. It is wrong to allow or to encourage children under 15 years of age attending school to take up employment. I am glad the House realises that. At a time when we have 35,000 young people unemployed there should be no need for children of that age to seek employment.

Some children receiving second level education have to attend courses to gain experience. I am glad the Minister said it is necessary to bring this order to the notice of the public. We are all aware that young people attending school are being employed at the moment. Whether the parents or the employers are to blame I cannot say, but collectively all are to blame. We legislators must ensure by every means at our disposal that these young people are not in employment because we all know it affects their education.

I thank the Deputy. We seem to be in total agreement. I am well aware of the economic necessity which may exist in many cases and which forces young people under 15 years of age to work during school terms. On balance, however, I believe the course I am proposing is the correct one. Young people must be able to take full advantage of the period of compulsory education. For many it may well be the only education they will get. I have no doubt that they will not be able to take full advantage of it if they are allowed to work all the year round which many are forced to do at the moment. I am glad the House is accepting the motion.

Could I comment briefly on the whole question of youth employment?

The Deputy cannot do so now. Before the Minister concluded he could have done so. I am sorry about that. He may ask a question.

In introducing this order, has the Minister taken into consideration the fact that the son or daughter of a working-class family may need to have this kind of employment? I worked when I was 14 years of age. I am totally opposed to the abuse of young people in employment.

When we talk about youth employment during school term, is the Minister aware that in practice the benefit of whatever is paid by the State goes mainly to the families of well-off people? In the case of employment in State companies or other State bodies during the school term, that employment is availed of by well-off families and it is not the families of working class people who benefit.

Whereas what the Deputy says may have some merit, it is my belief that, during school term, children between the ages of 14 and 15 years should not be allowed to work. Previously they were allowed to work for two hours under the Act but we know that two hours was the minimum. It is very difficult to police that type of thing. We are now saying that during school term parents who allow their children to work will be breaking the law.

Question put and agreed to.
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