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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Dec 1981

Vol. 331 No. 5

Youth Employment Agency Bill, 1981: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

When I moved the adjournment at 1.30 p.m. I was speaking of the importance of education and I referred to people from industry, trade unions and education being cloistered together. From that I come to the composition of the board as outlined by the Minister in his statement. He stated that they will have two members from the ICTU, two members from the employers' organisations, two from the National Youth Council, one from the Department of Education, one from the Department of the Environment, and three nominees of the Minister, one of whom shall be the chairman.

Very often we are all aware at meetings, wherever they may be, of the problem of money being spent on social welfare. We are aware that this amount of money has been increasing continually, particularly in the field of unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance. I suggest to the Minister that he may on Committee Stage if he so wishes increase the number of people on the board to 12 or 13 or he may appoint one of his nominees a person from the Department of Social Welfare. I would like to see a person appointed who is closely associated with employment benefit and unemployment assistance because, with increases that have been given in social welfare, there are people on social welfare benefits in receipt of moneys equivalent, in some cases, to what a young person would get in his first-time employment. Therefore, it would be advisable if we are going to have this agency, which is an umbrella organisation, to supervise the various schemes we have for youth employment, to have somebody from the Department of Social Welfare, particularly someone who has a knowledge of unemployment benefits and assistance, to see how money paid by taxpayers and PRSI contributors is being spent. Through some of these schemes we might be able to use young people who are on the unemployment register. When I say young people I am referring to those under 35 years of age.

The Minister comes from a constituency which is very like mine and I am sure he is aware of complaints with regard to money paid out in unemployment assistance and unemployment benefits. People feel it should be used to supplement some of the schemes which were put in operation by the Fianna Fáil Government and which are now being expanded by the present Government. If the Minister cannot include one person from the Department of Social Welfare from the three nominees he is going to make, he should extend the board to 12 in order to get someone who has experience in that Department of this terrible problem of people who are on unemployment benefit but who are capable of working.

The Minister said in his speech that these measures were designed to ensure that no young person is left without some sort of work. When we are speaking to young people we should not overplay our hand. Young people today are far more mature than we were. They are aware there is a recession and of the problems we face. We cannot promise them all that we are going to get them jobs. It is a credit to many young people, who have gone to third level education or to regional colleges and who find that there are no jobs for them, whatever their qualifications, that they have gone to work on the factory floors. I admire them for that and I have the greatest respect for them but I would not like them to think that when this Bill is passed the Youth Employment Agency is going to guarantee and will be designed to ensure that no young person is left without a job. The last time we had a reduction in unemployment figures was in May of this year. there was a reduction of 2,500 but, in every month since that, there was an increase in unemployment figures. Bearing in mind that so many people left school in June and July the largest number of people who registered for employment are young people.

Anything that can be done to extend the various programmes which will give employment to young people is very welcome. In his speech the Minister also mentioned the forthcoming report of the OECD team led by Mrs. Shirley Williams which examined our youth employment problems and our existing schemes earlier this year. At that time I was Minister for Labour and I was very pleased to meet Mrs. Williams who was the leader of the group. Since then, as we know, she has become a member of the House of Commons and I presume she will resign her position on the team. That will not stop the document being prepared and I look forward to seeing what the report is like. I am satisfied that when that team came over here they were keenly interested and met all the people they could to find out the extent of the unemployment situation. They were keenly interested in the problem because of our young population and the high percentage of youth unemployment.

I welcome the Bill as an extension of all the schemes that we implemented when we were in Government. The Minister did not mention any new schemes but even an extension of existing ones is very welcome. I am concerned about financing it and taking £63 million by putting 1 per cent on PRSI contributions by every worker and salary earner. He is also going to take 1 per cent which will represent about £7.5 million, from farmers and self-employed by an assessment on health charges. If you are introducing a Bill of this nature, it should be financed by normal methods on budget day. Many people do not realise that when the Minister introduced this Bill, welcome as it is, there was a mini-budget included in it.

The Chair is happy to launch Deputy Ivan Yates on his maiden speech.

It is a great pleasure, as the youngest Member of this House, that the first opportunity I have to make a speech is on the Youth Employment Agency Bill, 1981, which is a special recognition of young people and the specific problems relating to them. We must commend the Minister and the Government for the alacrity with which they met their commitments by bringing in this measure. It would be usual to have Green Papers, White Papers and consultative documents which would stretch for over a year. The Minister has a great enthusiasm for this area of his responsibility and this he has clearly shown by setting up a limited liability company so that it will be in operation in early 1982.

Special mention must be made of the National Manpower Service and their consultative committee which reported in November 1980. This was a very relevant document on youth employment. A contribution from the National Youth Council of Ireland and EEC reports have also been very effective and worthwhile.

Welcoming the setting up of the agency I particularly welcome their concept, their statutory base and their financial independence. In welcoming this the Coalition are not saying it is a substitute for sound economic planning and policy and it will not, by itself solve the unemployment problem. What it does is to clearly meet the specific needs and many and varied problems of the age group between 15 and 25 years.

First there is the transition from school to work that no other age group seeking jobs has; this is a position of weakness and inexperience. In a time of recession we have redundancies. It is common union practice that the last in is the first out and young people are particularly vulnerable in this area. Because we have higher standards of education, our young people are more idealistic and have higher expectations than their parents and those who have gone before them, and it is extra demoralising and disillusioning when they cannot get jobs.

Over 40 per cent of our unemployed are in the age group of 15 to 24. As the Minister said, since January 1980 the growth of this sector of the unemployed has been 80 per cent. The age group 15 to 19 years have problems of lower productivity for the same wage, and there is very little incentive for employers to take them on. We also have demographic considerations and problems which are particular to this country within an EEC context. Between 1975 and 1995 our labour force will double. This is verified by the fact that over 50 per cent of our population are under 25 and recent census figures show that with the increased birth rate this trend will continue.

For all these reasons this agency is urgently needed. There is an urgent need for long-term planning throughout this decade and beyond for proper youth employment policies. In studying the role of the agency we must look at existing services. We must look at all the structures provided under the Department of Labour and other Departments. I believe all these services and agencies provide a disjointed, incomplete and insufficient answer to the problem of youth unemployment.

I have always believed the National Manpower Service should have been a national manpower authority. Because they get their finances from the Department of Labour Vote they are under-financed, under-staffed and totally ineffective in dealing with young people's problems.

In my constituency I meet many people of my own age. Some are graduates and others have diplomas from the RTC. The first thing I ask is if they are registered with the National Manpower Service. Ninety per cent of them are but they still cannot find jobs. The present agency are not providing the required service. The best feature of the agency is the work experience courses, £20 per week being paid to employers who retain these workers. At present there are about 5,000 employed under this scheme. As the placement rate in retainable jobs is about 80 per cent, there is a great need for doubling this figure.

AnCO have an industrial training role to play. The apprenticeship and adult training courses are excellent. I visited the regional centre in Waterford which provides the excellent skilled requirements needed for our new labour force. Like the National Manpower Service AnCO needs to be expanded. I believe there are certain counties which have lost out and have a higher proportion of refusals for AnCO courses.

I am very critical of the community training projects scheme. In Enniscorthy there was a particular development — the Enniscorthy Boys' Club. They have been waiting three years for their project to be completed. Many of the lads come from Waterford and they work very few hours a day because of travelling. There are not a sufficient number of overseers there. This scheme needs to be looked at. If money is scarce this scheme should not be given the priority it is getting at present. This is borne out by the fact that many other local voluntary groups that have proposed developments are not availing of this service because they know of the red tape and delays involved.

In this area of community projects works I welcome the new scheme of capital grants for recreational and sporting facilities announced by the Department of Education. This is a very worthy exercise as will be borne out by the number of applications received before the closing date. When we talk about young people we must also take into account their leisure time and ensure their time is taken up constructively. My only fear is that as these projects are put for tender and approved and inspected in the normal way by the Department, there is no guarantee young people will be employed. The contractor who has entered the lowest tender will get the job. There is no guarantee that young people will be employed. Therefore I do not believe this is an answer to the problem of the young.

Examining the overall agencies and bodies that operate in the area of youth employment we see that they are all doing their best in their own areas, but there is no co-ordination. Each scheme is under-financed and there is no overall or isolated evaluation of the scheme. This is where the agency will have a role to play.

We must examine the existing educational policy at second level. The type of academic curriculum pursued at present is a direct aggravation to young school leavers trying to find jobs. The kind of textbook education they get does not meet practical requirements. Many people do the leaving certificate at 16 and 17 years of age and when they are ready to apply for jobs the first thing they face is a statement in advertisements to the effect that applicants must be 18 years or over. That means that there is a 12 to 18 month gap before they can hope to get official employment, even with State bodies. The problem of young people leaving school too early certainly needs to be examined. The points system for the leaving certificate has no practical bearing or usefulness for when children finish school. I would like to see subjects such as technical drawing, building construction and work study and practice included in the curriculum, so that students in fifth year who are choosing their subjects for the leaving certificate will have an incentive under the points system to take up those practical studies. There is a need for technical and scientific education and there should be an incentive towards that in secondary schools. The RTCs are doing an excellent job in this regard but there is need for further liaison between the National Council for Educational Awards, who present diplomas and certificates through the RTC courses, and industry. That should be done so that we can get in young people who are employable and have the skills needed.

School leavers are ill-equipped to handle even such simple things as filling up application forms or sitting for interviews. Our schemes at present are scattered and as a result many young people must approach local representatives or the National Manpower Service in the hope of getting a job. In many cases they do not get any further than completing an application form because employers do not reply to them. It is no wonder that they are becoming frustrated. That is one of the reasons why I welcome the establishment of the agency. Many young people look to this agency with new hope that it will meet their problems and the problems that will be faced by their younger brothers and sisters. The Minister must establish the extent of the problem and prepare a plan to solve it. The first move the agency must make is to compile a register of those who are unemployed. There is a view that the National Manpower Service should carry out that duty but I reject that because the National Manpower Service did not keep such a register in the last ten years. I do not think they have the personnel, the finance or the structures to keep a proper register. I am talking about a register of those who are unemployed between the ages of 15 and 25. Areas experiencing problems in regard to unemployment could be identified and the agency could put more finance into them to create more jobs. It is the intention that the agency will operate a guaranteed system of a job within 12 months of leaving school and the preparation of a register as I suggested would help in that regard. If the agency is to be as effective as we would all like to see it, it is essential that it controls registration.

I should also like to see the agency setting up a research unit to monitor and evaluate the programmes and schemes that are in operation to help young people get employment. We are producing people for jobs that are not available because of the excess in those areas. At the same time there is a shortage of young people with skills. There is a fundamental need for such a unit to look at the areas that have excesses in requirements and those that need to re-evaluate courses. When considering youth unemployment we must remember that this does not occur only in the lower paid area. Proportionately there are as many unemployed graduates and they, and their parents, have put a lot of money into their education. Such people are utterly frustrated because they cannot get employment. The research unit I have suggested could look at such areas as agri-business, horticulture and so on to see if graduates can obtain employment in them. It should not cater for manual workers only.

We are all aware that the IDA regional offices have projects to help young people or those anxious to set up an enterprise. The IDA is available to grant-aid projects that will lead to a reduction in imports instead of such industries as printing, the bottling of soft drinks or meat processing where there is an excess already. All available information should be given to the agency which would then be in a position to play an advisory role and that role would be monitored by the research unit. I accept that there will be teething problems with the agency as occurs in all new bodies but a research unit must be established to examine and evaluate the overall success rate of each scheme.

The agency should also play an educational role and have powers to investigate and recommend changes in our second level system. The curriculum must be looked at but I would like to see the agencies appointing a career guidance adviser who would be responsible for career guidance counsellors attending at schools throughout the country. There is also a need to make civics courses mandatory in secondary schools so that children are advised on the filling out of application forms and are made aware of social welfare entitlements, tax matters, trade union and work practices and so on. There is a basic ignorance about such matters among young people and they have to approach public representatives. They should undergo a work preparation programme in their schools under the auspices of the new agency. Schools should be visited twice yearly by representatives of the agency and the agency should also invite representatives of the employers so that they can have a complete awareness of all problems. We could call this a count down to careers and it should only be available to young people to see that they are better prepared when leaving school.

I am most concerned about the direct employment role of the agency. Most expenditure should be on specific projects. In the area of agriculture we have the farm apprenticeship board and relief services operated by Macra na Feirme. This morning I attended a meeting between the IFA and Macra and I heard the head of the family farm section speak of the need to train the new generation of farmers' wives. In many cases those people were teachers or nurses before marriage and did not have any direct experience of agriculture. With greater mechanisation on farms there is also a greater role for the farm apprenticeship board to play. The new agency should also assist in those areas. Deputy Allen spoke about inner-city groups and I should like to add that there is a role for direct community involvement in urban renewal, or where there are specific projects that need to be undertaken — either in an urban or in a deprived rural area in respect of which the agency on the basis of their register have assessed the problem and concluded that no individual employer can solve that problem. In such circumstances they could examine the possibility of setting up temporary projects.

In towns there are many instances where both husband and wife are out at work or where there are elderly people living alone and who are not able to undertake essential services in the home such as sweeping a chimney, clearing blocked drains and so on. There is a strong case for the agency to consider the setting up of local agencies, possibly through a network of local committees, whereby services would be co-ordinated and people with the type of problems I have mentioned could approach the agency and they, in turn, would hire young people to do the necessary work. We all experience difficulty in acquiring the services of a plumber of a carpenter. If the agency at local level were to become involved in such activity, they would be contributing directly to employment. When set up, the board should have no reservations in trying pilot schemes. I would hope that they would be courageous in this respect and would not adopt a penny-pinching approach. The only way in which to find out whether schemes might be successful is to try them and test them fully.

In the area of tourism we had in Dublin recently, for instance, a young traveller hotel set up. There is also the area of hostels in which people are required for such duties as caretaking, supervision, domestic work and so on. These are specific employment roles that the agency might consider. However, if there is any question of the board setting up regional type situations as happened in the case of the health boards or of the IDA, I would fear that we would be setting up another layer of bureaucracy. If the agency is to be on those lines I would suggest setting up on a voluntary basis if possible a complete network of local committees who would report directly to the various public bodies and make recommendations in regard to their individual areas.

In certain areas in which there are specific problems the agency would do well to play a direct capital investment role though within their budget it may not be possible to make the type of capital allocation that would be necessary but they could provide the incentives in areas in which neither the public nor private sectors can meet the requirements of young people.

The concept of youth co-operatives is worthwhile and should be assisted and grant-aided directly. As a matter of priority the agency should have the assistance of young entrepreneurs whose talents and time would be very beneficial. Moneys spent in this way would be recouped by the Exchequer in due course. The co-operatives would ensure the retention of young people in employment.

It is very important also that the agency have a strong public relations unit and that they have a very high public profile. The Minister expressed particular personal concern that the agency would operate in deprived and disadvantaged areas so far as young people are concerned. According to the National Manpower Service many of those are not even registered. Therefore, the agencies we have are not helping these young people. Employers in such areas should be notified of the assistance and of the schemes being provided by the agency.

I do not find any reference to the handicapped in the Articles of Association in this legislation. Perhaps it was not found necessary to make specific reference to these people. This Government are continuing the policy of the previous Government whereby a minimum of 3 per cent of all public sector employees are to be drawn from the ranks of the handicapped or of the semi-disabled. I urge that in the projects undertaken by the agency this figure be at least 5 per cent.

There is no reference in the legislation either to equality though I expect that it is assumed there will be equality. I make this point because the AnCO courses have been beneficial particularly to young men. Many of these courses such as bricklaying, welding, mechanical engineering and so on are applicable mainly to young men. The agency must be aware of the needs of young girls in the employment area expecially since there are more young girls than young boys in the country. There must not be this stereo-typing attitude in which girls are trained only for secretarial or clerical work. Other courses must be available to them also.

I am considerably disappointed with the composition of the board in so far as the National Youth Council are concerned. I have been in touch with that body during the past couple of years and I am aware of their commitment in this area. They were the ones who in 1978 first mooted the idea of an employment agency in specific terms. They have furnished the Department with considerable memoranda on the subject and they have had consultations with the officials of the Department of Labour and of other relevant Departments as well as with the Minister directly. In these circumstances I am very disappointed to note that only two of the 11 members are to be drawn from that council. Unless the Minister appoints more young people to the agency specific problems will arise. At a time of recession there are always sectional interests whether on the part of employers or of trade unions. If the textile industry, for example, is experiencing a rough time representations will be made to the ICTU and to the FUE to safeguard the interests of that industry. That is why I ask that young people be given greater representation on the new agency. They will not have any sectional interests. A one-third representation would be fair and reasonable for them. It would be a recognition of the voluntary work they undertake and of the role they have to play in this agency. In keeping with their commitment the Government are to set up a youth committee made up of members of the Dáil which will be the first of its kind in that not only will it comprise Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas but also members from bodies such as Macra and so on. I would like the committee to have a very close relationship with the agency and be directly related to youth affairs and youth problems so that there would be a close liaison between the two and recommendations could go backwards and forwards providing the House with an opportunity to examine these recommendations objectively and constructively.

Turning now to the financial structure, I welcome what the Minister has done. He has not acted in a bureaucratic way. He has used the procedures already there, the PRSI and the health contributions, as the method of collection. This will be effective since collection will be immediate. It will also have the advantage of not entailing the recruitment of more staff to collect the moneys required. I believe the budget of AnCO and the National Manpower Service will not be undermined in any way because the agency will have money. I know the Minister has decided against setting up a youth employment fund and I would have no objection to this decision if I knew for certain that the budget under the Department of Labour to the National Manpower Service and AnCO will remain unaffected. I accept his dilemma from the point of view of speed and urgency and later on, when the agency is established and the financial structures are there, I hope the Government will consider setting up a youth employment fund so that there will be a guarantee of a specific 1 per cent to be spent in a specific way.

There will be no widespread condemnation of this tax measure. I certainly have not heard any criticisms of it in my constituency. Taxpayers realise that it is their sons and daughters and brothers and sisters who will be the direct beneficiaries under this scheme. With the consensus for wage restraint in order to maintain and increase employment it is imperative that we do this in this way to ensure that those already in employment will have jobs and those who have no jobs will ultimately get them.

On the expenditure side I would like a set allowance. Whether it is a training course in AnCO, a work experience course with the National Manpower Service, a job under a specific project laid down by the agency, I would like to see a fixed allowance under which those involved would get the same rate of benefit, not a meagre rate as is the case with certain benefits at the moment. Young people with AnCO do not make PRSI contributions. They get no entitlement whatsoever. I would hope there would be some system of stamp contribution for every week they are with the agency.

The real importance of this Bill and of the agency lies in its financial independence. A minimum of £63 million will be allocated. This sum will be topped off by the EMS. Here we are doing more than any other member state per thousand capita and that shows the Government's commitment and the kind of resources we are prepared to invest in solving this problem of youth unemployment. I understand £10 million is to be allocated for 1982. That will not be enough.

On a point of order, I explained last week that there was a mistake in the brief. It said £10 million. It should have been £40 million.

I am delighted to hear that. The Bill accepts the importance of the first job. That is of particular significance. I would like to see a broad, positive, courageous and clear approach and the money spent directly to aid the young unemployed. If the so-called guarantee system is achieved, that will be a major achievement indeed. If a school leaver fails to find employment in a six-month or a 12-month period there should be four options open to that school leaver. There should be a minimum six months AnCO training course or a work experience course, namely, placement with employers. There should be special projects set up with the servicing agencies in each community, be it farm apprenticeship or inner city development. If all these fail there should be a consensus on some form of capital aid through which these young unemployed could be directly assisted.

The most important point is that the policy of the board must be to define the difference between employment retention as a top priority and a purely training role. If the agency is to have the impact we would like it to have, not only must it co-ordinate all the different schemes, evaluate and improve them, but it must also ensure that all those involved have a set target of 45 per cent each year on the registration system with the prospect of retainable employment for at least a year after that.

I commend the Minister on his speed in introducing the Bill and I wish the board every success.

While we all welcome any measure designed to deal with what must be regarded as a crisis situation in employment, I am sure the Minister will not think ill of me if I have some small reservations about some aspects of this Bill. We are all agreed that unemployment is the single greatest problem we have. If this proposed agency is to be just a continuation of what we have had over the past few years I do not see any great progress being made in solving the problem of youth unemployment. One would be inclined to think from the attitude of the Government that Ireland's youth constitute something of an embarrassment because they have to do something to try to relieve the unemployment situation. We, on this side of the House, regard our youth as our greatest resource and we take pride in the fact that we have such a strong, virile, well-educated youth. It was always our intention to provide our youth with whatever was necessary to give them a worthwhile living and a stake in this country.

The Government appear to be working on two fronts. While the Minister for Labour may have the best of intentions in dealing with this matter, it appears his Cabinet colleagues, particularly the Minister for Finance, do not think in the same fashion. I refer particularly to the recent examples from the Department of Finance of cutbacks in the public expenditure programme, cutbacks as far as the decentralisation programme is concerned, the recruitment to the public service and a range of other cutbacks. It is now becoming obvious to health boards and local authorities that the Government are intent on cutting back in those areas. The Government are saying there have to be severe cutbacks to accommodate pressures on the economic front and at the same time the Minister for Labour is talking about finding money from the new type of income tax to provide job opportunities. The Government should get together and decide there will be a joint effort in dealing with all our problems.

It will be a very small service if the Minister's speech is another plethora of pious hopes and would-be aspirations for the future of our youth. That will be no more than a continuation of the lip service which has been given to youth. It is a popular thing now to talk about youth and what has to be done for them, but very little has been done. The young people are quite happy with the lip service if it is transferred into some kind of positive action. This agency is no more than replacing the existing one which is already serving in this area. It is quite obvious from the Minister's opening speech on this Bill that no positive information has been given to our youth in regard to what areas of activity the Minister will become engaged in to relieve their problems.

On 25 November, as reported in volume 331, column 218 of the Official Report, he outlines from (a) to (i) the suggestions he will be putting to this new agency. This is just a nice collection of generalities and is the kind of fine, bureaucratic terminology one expects from Departments of State but, in effect, it does not mean anything and is only put there to confuse those who are not confused. It is asking too much of our youth to expect them to express confidence in that kind of agency. I am afraid they will be sceptical of anything this agency might do on their behalf. There is no statement anywhere of anything positive the agency hope to achieve.

It is well known that paper never refuses the ink. We certainly get a considerable amount of this in these generalities and bureaucratic statements. I do not believe this problem warrants more of that type of treatment. It has such serious consequences for the country that, if the Minister's statement had only been half as long and if he had isolated a few particular areas in which he wanted to see action, he would have got more kudos than he will from this speech.

The sentiments expressed in the Minister's speech must be taken as somewhat at variance with the statements made by his Cabinet colleagues. It is very difficult for the people to reconcile the two attitudes: cutbacks and non-recruitment in one area and then talk about collecting money from the last of the workers to provide jobs for the others. It is about time the Cabinet did something positive in that regard rather than have the ultra-conservative Fine Gael in the Government carrying out their monetaristic policy of cutbacks and regression and the other side of the Cabinet, the pseudo socialists, doing their best to bring forward socialistic policies, and the nameless party in the Government, who have been going along with the greatest anti-socialist bout of legislation ever introduced in the Dáil. Consequently, everybody is confused, especially our young people, who deserve more than that. I am not saying this in any critical way of the Minister, because I am sure he would like to do what is best in dealing with this problem. Perhaps the Minister would concentrate on his other Cabinet colleagues, particularly the Minister for Finance, and ensure that he gets a freer hand in dealing across the board with all matters concerning unemployment.

With regard to the Government's attitude on decentralisation and contraction in recruitment to the public service, for a number of years there has been a concentration of opportunity in the east coast to the detriment of the people along the west coast. While we do not expect to get any particular favours from the Minister or his colleagues in that regard because they have no electoral support down there, at the same time they will have to understand that a large proportion of the land of the country is west of the Shannon. Even though the west has not the largest population, it is well to bear in mind that it has a certain amount of political clout and is prepared to use it. This might become very evident in the next few weeks.

We have had the movement of many of our young people from the west to the centres of population. It was natural to expect this as all the job opportunities over the last few years have existed in the East. There has been a haemorrhage of the best of our people. It has denuded the west of its talents. We feel aggrieved about that. While there was some redress of that in the last few years under the previous Administration, this seems to have been reversed now because there appears to be a complete draw back from all development west of the Shannon. This does not seem to be in one or two isolated cases but in many areas of which everybody is aware. It brings home to the young people that there is no future in the west for them. Fianna Fáil had channelled some extra infrastructural development into the west over the last few years, but this has been taken back piece by piece and, if there is any truth in the rumours we hear, there will be further instances of that in the near future. That is not the way to generate any kind of hope in the young people of the west in the new agency, which is now being put forward as the saviour of the situation

Our young people in rural areas have been taking their opportunities where they can, in the cities. This denies the rights of young people and creates a social imbalance. These matters are very often slid over because we are only dealing with a small section of the community, but social imbalance has very far-reaching effects on opportunities. The result is that we now have a population imbalance, which must be redressed if we are to get an even development in the west. When the Minister is giving detailed instructions to the agency he should ask them to remember that those areas in which there is a social and population imbalance deserve greater attention than seems to be forthcoming from the Minister's Department at the moment.

A report from the NESC said that between 1961 and 1971 there was an increased concentration of white-collar jobs in the east coast. In 1971 some 49 per cent of the white collar jobs in the country were located in the east as was 59 per cent of office employment. That left very little by way of job opportunities that we would have liked to see in other parts of the country, particularly in the west. There was one specific effort made to help in this area when Fianna Fáil were in government in the 1960's which was reaffirmed in 1972 and 1977 but which was killed in 1981. That was the decentralisation programme.

It is no use talking about economic yardsticks. Other matters must be considered also. The programme had a lot going for it and it is unfortunate that the Minister now finds himself unable to commit his Government to its continuation. Not only did it improve the social imbalance and the population structure in the west but it also brought about the one point that was the kernel of Fianna Fáil thinking even in the late 1960s. It was not so much a question of decentralisation of buildings as decentralisation of decision-making. That is what it was all about in the 1960s and what it is still about, to let decision-making filter through the tiers and strata of the various Departments to enable the ordinary citizens to identify with the Government Departments for which they are paying and from which they expect fair treatment. That is being lost because of the return to centralised government to which the present administration are committed. What the Government are proposing is a retrograde step. It is no use trotting out economics in support of the cutback so far as that programme is concerned. That will not wash with the people in the rest of the country. People in rural Ireland who want to identify with the Government Department with which they are dealing will not be able to do that if there is a continuation of the policy that was outlined recently by the Minister.

I should like to deal with the question of youth unemployment. We are facing very serious economic and social challenges: that is the usual kind of statement one expects to hear in this House. The era of rapid economic growth so far as the economy is concerned has ceased. I hope it will return but we must recognise the present reality, namely, the cessation of economic growth in the OECD countries. When we consider what brought about this situation we will see we did not have that great input into it. The 1973-74 oil crisis started us on a fierce merry-go-round that brought so much hardship to many countries, including Ireland. There was a shift in the balance of the world powers and we suffered in the middle. There were high rates of inflation in the OECD countries and there were high external deficits. Added to that there was the never-ending extension of the dole queues and, consequently, we have now reached a situation where growth has ceased in our economy, as it has in others.

We must provide an effective response to unemployment and that must be made the key priority issue. It must be the first economic aim of any Government. That was clearly stated by Fianna Fáil and we were doing something about it. It involved certain borrowing abroad but it was done to keep jobs in existence, to provide a proper balance in the development of the country and to provide a proper infrastructure so that we could maintain our place when the turn around came eventually. All of that is being put at risk. A new approach is being adopted now but the result is higher inflation, more unemployment and, the worst of all, a cutback in living standards. There is a no-hope atmosphere in the area the Minister would like to deal with by way of this agency, namely, youth unemployment.

This economic crisis was further exacerbated by a rapid growth in our workforce. There are those who consider that a failure, but I regard it as our greatest resource and this will be proved to be the case in the years to come. This growth in our population is a welcome departure from the situation that existed for many years, but while the population was growing our economy was contracting. There was also a growing demand for paid employment among women. This was a phenomenon to us in the past few years and it further aggravated the situation. We also had the coming on stream of micro-technology. This changed industry and is continuing to change it at a faster rate than the workforce can adjust to that change. It is putting enormous pressures on the workforce. In the EEC in 1973 there were about three million people unemployed whereas in 1981 the figure is in excess of nine million. This shows that we are not the only ones caught in this dilemma but we are the only people who have not taken a direct stand to do something about it. I am not as convinced as others that this agency is the complete answer to deal with the problem.

The worst hit in the population and in the changing circumstances that exist on the population front and in the area of technology are people under 25 years. In this country that group comprise the vast majority of the population. Even though they are not working they are willing to work. They have been educated and trained to work and in the long term they will be our greatest resource. We must utilise every facility at our disposal to ensure that we do everything necessary to deal with this matter. If this agency does that I shall be the first to congratulate the Minister. However, there are shortcomings so far as the agency is concerned and I will deal with them now.

Unemployment will not just go away. It is a battle on our hands and if we do not win that battle it will become a war. While I do not want to make prognostications about what might or might not happen if we do not adopt a certain course, it is my view that we will have a battle on our hands so far as unemployment is concerned and it is up to the Minister, for whatever time he is in office, to do what he can. I believe we must share the burdens of the economic crisis and those who are lucky enough to have secure employment must play their part. We must have a better social welfare system for those people who cannot get suitable employment in the short term and that means making a much better effort so far as increases in social welfare are concerned.

We could reorganise working times because it is my view that not enough has been done in this area. Even though it is not always popular to say it, I put it to the Minister that perhaps the time has come for us to do something about limiting overtime and about flexible retirement. All of this has been said before but nothing positive has been done. I would have congratulated the Minister if he had included such matters in his address, even though they may not be popular and even though he may have to fight some sectional interests in doing so. It was not done. Denmark brought in early retirement in 1979 and reduced unemployment by 30 per cent in that year. About 75 per cent of the jobs created by that were taken up by young people. There is a positive area that should be listed. If it was found that it applied to our situation and achieved half that result, it would be worth considering as one of the terms of reference of the agency.

There are areas of economic potential that could have been mentioned by the Minister. Lip service has been paid to small industries and small firms. As far as the USA is concerned, over the last ten years two-thirds of all jobs created were in the small industries sector. If that is the situation in the most advanced technological State, I do not see why we cannot apply the lessons to our situation. Much has been spoken about giving this area special treatment but it is not enough to pay lip service to it. Small industries are usually more labour-intensive and communication is always better between management and the workforce. There is less friction and less man-days are lost. The Minister should bring to the attention of the Taoiseach the fact that if there is one State car left, this side of the House would not think too dimly of him if he appointed a Minister of State responsible for small industries. If that was done it would generate more activity in an area which has served other economies so well over the last ten years.

Another area is education. As far as that is concerned, we must match employment skills to new employment opportunities. This has not been done by the Department of Education. We must have worker mobility. We do not think enough about this. At present young people are the most mobile youth the world has ever seen. They are willing to move around and we should utilise that and put it to good use as far as the location of workers and young people is concerned. To engage in worker mobility we must consider changing labour law and trade union practice. Surely there is no better qualified person than — I shall not say pseudo-socialist — a Labour Minister for Labour in a Coalition to introduce measures here——

It proved so in the past.

It is not proving so today. Our shadow spokesman on Finance had to take the Government to task about having sabotaged the national wage agreement. The Government have not delivered there. The Government lost all credibility, sad as I am to say so, when they spoke about 9 per cent. The wise men were met on the way home and told by the Taoiseach to bring in 6½ per cent. It then had to develop to 12 per cent and I suppose the Government will settle for anything in the end.

The Deputy should not gloat.

I am not gloating. It was the Government who said that each 1 per cent increase would cost in the region of £20 million. If this debacle will cost £300 million it does not seem credible that the Government should allow themselves to be outmanoeuvred and move away so far from their original stand that they left the negotiating parties in no doubt but that there was more available than they were saying. That has been confirmed because the Government are prepared to deal at a much higher figure. The Government have said that things are bad but how can they be so harsh when they can incur——

The Chair would prefer not to have a duel on this.

How can the Minister——

The Deputy should relate his contribution to the measure before the House.

——say there is a crisis in the economy when they can find £300 million to satisfy this demand and another £300 million for their tax restructuring programme and another £300 million for quarter of the budget deficit they will have over the next four years? They will find £24 million to pay the poor ladies £9.60 per week. I suppose there are other developments about to appear which will cost hundreds of millions of pounds. All this when we are told the country is in a state of crisis. We are told Fianna Fáil left nothing. If so where are the Government finding all the money? They have raided all the resources of the State, the banks resources——

The west of Ireland.

They have butchered the west and put the hand of death on it. The clawback is on there because they have no electoral support in it. There is no problem in killing us off down there but we will deal with that before too long.

Labour law and trade union practice will have to be altered and the Minister should study this area. The Minister's speech is notable for one thing only and that is that it suggests nothing. It is a nice Departmental bureaucratic statement which signifies nothing. It refers in the mildest way to job creation and training. We have a situation where people on unemployment assistance have been asked to sell their dignity. The youth are not prepared to do this for a small handout from any Government. They will look with scepticism at the input of this agency. It is a revamping of three or four other agencies which did not have much success but which, if they had been given extra by way of further finance, might have delivered the goods. The Government should not try to confuse people by giving fancy names to old dogs.

New methods are needed to deal with unemployment. One of the areas which the Minister did not refer to and to which he should pay more attention is apprenticeships. Training, apprenticeships and giving special allowances to apprentices and employers would generate new job outlets. If people were trained it would not matter if they had to leave the country, because their training would take them anywhere in the world. Why has he not mentioned this tax rebate to firms providing that training? There was no talk at all about incentives. There was a load of talk about a new agency and who is going to be on it and what they will have to do. They will be diametrically opposed to the other agencies who will be fighting to hold their place in the queue, but in the end, of course, the intention is that they will be swallowed up. This agency is nothing but an umbrella under which all the other agencies will be taken and eventually phased out.

I put a suggestion to the Minister — I do not know if it is new — it could have been referred to by him as a means of dealing with a certain section of the unemployment queue — that a national public works scheme be implemented. This would be of enormous benefit in the big conurbations, the urban areas and rural Ireland. I suggest also training courses which would deal with the whole spectrum of apprenticeships and with an enormous range of jobs that are obviously so necessary to everybody and which run from the industrial side to the environmental side, the tourist side and so on. We could give job opportunities particularly to unskilled people and thus, for half the money that this agency are going to collect by way of levy, eliminate all the unskilled people from the live register. We had national public works schemes a long time ago, during the famine, for instance, and some of them turned out to be very useful subsequently. Why would we not undertake such schemes now? For instance, consider the great volume of renovation which could be carried out on existing council houses. This could be undertaken if first the proper people were trained to direct and supervise. We could undertake a cleaning-up operation. We have public decor, public buildings. Also we might channel a lot of this work into building up the infrastructure in certain parts of the country which have been denied the proper finance over a lifetime. Perhaps £1 million spent on local improvement schemes would produce a great deal of good and I guarantee that it would be welcomed with open arms by everybody. People would not mind paying a levy if they were to see that money channelled into taking people off the dole queues. Traditionally small farmers used to get a month or two months' work of this kind in a year and this was a great support to their farming.

I suggest that a national public works scheme could be undertaken in co-operation with local authorities and health boards and it would bring an enormous advantage. It would kill at least 25 per cent of the live register. With the addition of the flexi-retirement scheme which I mentioned, which has been successful in other European countries, we could eliminate virtually half the live register for half the money the Minister is talking about collecting for setting up a new bureaucratic system. A fresh administration is going to act as an adviser to all the other organisations which have been dealing with this matter without much success because of lack of Government interest over the years.

I refer to the possibility of the Taoiseach giving out his last State car. I am not going to denigrate the Taoiseach for his attitude in this matter despite the fact that when the State cars were given out a few years ago when the 15 Ministers of State were created, we had to listen to the ballyragging and ballyhoo from the Opposition at that time. They said then that there was no need for them. The need has been found now in order to accommodate the people who had to be bought off on the Government side. One last car is left and perhaps the Taoiseach should create a Minister of State for small industry. There is a grave need for such a post which would pay for itself because this phenonemon of small industries has paid off well in all the other developed economies in the western world. We should apply the principle vigorously here, much more vigorously than the county development teams who have been strangling themselves struggling against insurmountable odds. Also it would give a new fillip to the IDA who then would have a certain area of operation with a certain man responsible for the development of that resource.

Small industries are labour-intensive and we should tell the banks that they should be more ready to lend risk capital to them. The banking organisations have been reluctant to deal with the small, isolated person. He does not seem to have the Government's support. The county development secretaries have supported him as did the county councils, and the IDA set up a new structure a few years ago in support of him. His biggest difficulty was in attracting foreign investment in the big operators and the multinationals. The banks should be requested perhaps no more than that — to look more favourably on lending that risk capital to these small operators. It could even be State guaranteed. Why not? We guarantee many other things, and if that guarantee was given the banks might further relax their purse strings. Why would we not create more favourable interest rates on this capital available to the small man? That would be a positive step in attracting the new entrepreneurs about whom we are talking so glibly every day while we do nothing further about it.

Why would we not have an easier taxation system for small industries in general? Why not set up an agency under that Minister of State when appointed to give the kind of advice that is needed by the small operator who has the skill — for that is all he has? He has the technological skill, he has the skill in his hands, but he has no skill as far as accountancy is concerned and his operation would not warrant recruiting an accountant. He has no skill regarding tax or in marketing, but he can produce in co-operation with his brothers and perhaps two or three operators. Why do we not have a decent way of advising such people? It will be said to me now that such advice is there. The kind of advice available is a sheaf of documentation in typical bureaucratic terminology that would frighten off even some of the managing directors from the larger companies. We should not try to frighten off those small operators who, if they got the right kind of tax advice and incentive, would gladly set up in operation. Let us not cloud the issue by making it more difficult for them to market the product of their operation and to deal with the taxmen. The small industrialist is not interested in spending two days with his accountant and another two days chewing the rag with the local tax inspector. He is interested in being on the shop floor. The job losses in the larger industries are much greater than in the small industries. Small industries are much better able to weather the economic storms and recessions and are much less dependent on the fuel situation and energy resources than are the larger concerns, and consequently they can survive. We have been giving them too much lip service.

Why did the Minister not say that in support of youth employment he would ask the Minister for Industry and Energy to set up a special operation with a new, fresh Minister of State heading it to deal with some small firms and small industries? Why would we not help co-operative marketing amongst small businesses? Nothing was ever attempted on that. We have co-operatives in other areas. Small business could pool their resources and talents and in conjunction with one another they could buy computers, technology and expert advice and divide the expenses over a large number of operators.

With a view to improving the job situation for young people, the Government could encourage the semi-State bodies and organisations, financial, economic and industrial, under State control to buy in from a host of small sub-contractors, instead of retaining the present situation where the big boys operate with each other. Many downstream one- and two-man operations could be encouraged if the semi-State organisations got instructions from the relevant Department of State that this was expected of them. There are job opportunities going abegging but there is no concrete suggestion in the Minister's speech as to how this could be done except that he was going to ask them to review the whole situation of agencies already operating.

There has been a lot of talk about education, school leavers and aids for job creation. Many of the suggestions were worthwhile as far as employment programmes are concerned. The training in our educational institutions is a fundamental and vital area of the whole question of youth employment. We will have to have more practical courses. We have been preaching about this over a long period, but the Department of Education have not yet got the message, and there is no suggestion in the agency formula that they are going to get any fresh ideas about what is necessary to educate our youth to take their place in the new technological era. Youth unemployment is going to remain at unacceptably high levels for the foreseeable future. It should not be thought from the deliberations here that this new agency is going to remove youth unemployment. It would be misleading and mischievous to suggest that we had a panacea for all our ills. We will have to stop unemployment rising any further and, hopefully, retain it at its existing level and then try to reduce it.

What about matching up the types of jobs offered to young people today? A contrast has arisen between the development of our educational system and the higher levels of education and the stagnation in respect of working conditions and responsibilities. That means we must re-establish the type of growth that is more favourable to employing young people. We have never seriously attempted to do that. We have to adapt our education and training to the needs of modern society. We have only paid lip service to that as far as education is concerned. We must also improve working conditions and increase motivation in the work place. No effort has been made by the Government to do that. In fact, one would think they were hell bent on creating division and frustration in the work place. What positive steps have been taken by the Department of Education to develop a proper career guidance service? None. There are people appointed, drawing salaries, who have instructions in this regard in many educational institutions. But in rural areas there is no integrated programme of career guidance suitably adapted to our situation. The Minister must recognise that.

Until such time as young people are motivated in the right direction and given good advice early on from qualified personnel, fully acquainted with job opportunities, and the requirements of this technological era, until such time as we have the backup of an educational system geared to technological training, the Minister's agency is wasting its time. It will be the square peg in the round hole for a few months and nothing at the end of it. If you provide a job at a certain cost for a young person for a few months and suddenly tell him it is to be discontinued, you are doing a disservice to him, to the country and causing further frustration.

The question of youth employment must be seen as a cycle. There is not enough guidance for this technological age in which education has been changing over the past couple of years. I am not denigrating the people who are working in this area. Obviously, they are operating under severe constraints, but it is an area that needs looking at. We also need training for young people so that they will get satisfaction from the job opportunities provided, not just any old job for a few short months to provide pocket money in the hope that something better will turn up later on. Young people are asking us not to sell them short.

They want to be provided with worth-while training and opportunities so that they are equipped for good jobs. The first thing a 1981 employer asks a prospective job seeker is about his training and experience. The answer in the vast majority of the output from our academically geared institutions is "None, sir". There is money going abegging in the European Social Fund. I hope the Minister will tap that source and add it on to some of the money he is going to squeeze out of the hard-pressed taxpayer by way of this levy to make available essential training. If the training went on for two years and it cost £200 million or £500 million it would be an investment for the future and it could have been done without the agency. The framework was already there, but the initiative was not taken. I hope the change of name will provide a change of heart and result in our doing something about it. We have guidance training and a placement service doing its best with limited resources. They have plenty of people to place and nowhere to put them. If all your attention, effort, money and resources are directed in one area without considering others in the cycle, then you are defeating the cause and you will only have a temporary improvement that will fall back when the money plug is pulled out.

Premiums to encourage managers to increase their staff have not been referred to in the Minister's speech. It costs money but it encourages and provides incentives to management to increase their staffs. They are quite prepared to do this if they can see a long term result. It is regrettable that the public service sector has been cut back. It throws the whole question of employment out of balance and suggests to the educational institutions to shift the emphasis from one area of activity to the other. There is a stop-go situation as far as the public sector is concerned, and public sector employment has a bigger bearing on the socially and economically deprived areas than perhaps is readily seen in the city. We must remember that. We do not want this agency to be seen as completely city-orientated. The major outlet for the educational institutions in the west, which are academically geared, has been in the public sector programme and the Minister is now taking it away. The people are angry about this. There is no use saying that when things improve he will allow the stop gap to be removed and let employment flow freely. That is not good enough. There should be a nice, even flow into the public programme. The public sector programme, properly utilised, can generate other jobs downstream in the public sector. I would ask the Minister to reconsider this.

Some action must be taken to make the best possible use of the EEC Social Fund as an extension of our financial assistance in this area. A tentative figure, about £40 million, might be available from this source. There is a great deal of goodwill in EEC countries towards providing extra financial assistance for job creation for young people. All the other countries have experienced the same difficulties in youth unemployment situations and are conscious of the need to make further moneys available in this area. Enormous strides in dealing with youth unemployment have been made in Belgium and Germany. In Germany this was done by the use of better apprenticeship schemes. We should be learning from the systems that worked in EEC countries. I see nothing wrong with sending our specialists to study the methods that have been adopted and used to great effect by other countries. Until we get closer to considering out future educational system on lines similar to the German apprenticeship system, where apprenticeship is welcomed and its proper status respected, we will not be going in the right direction. The Minister should apply himself to that area.

Every country should be in a position to offer one or two things to every young person: either the possibility of working or an opportunity to undertake training. We are not doing that, and that is the kernel of the problem. If we cannot offer our youth work, we have to give them the opportunity to do a training course with something positive at the end — not just a job for the sake of a job to keep them off the streets for six months. We need more than that. I would be happier to see people with the proper educational background getting the opportunity to train for a much longer period so that by the time the training course was over some of our technologically advanced industries would give them employment. This recession is not going to last forever and we are not making any great strides to benefit from the turn around when it comes.

I said the national public works programme would reduce the numbers on the live register by at least 25 per cent. If you were to utilise some of the money you are going to get——

When the Deputy uses the word "you" he is addressing me.

When I use the word "you" when talking to the Minister I am——

The Deputy should talk to the Minister through the Chair.

The Minister should convey to the powers that be that the national works programme has many advantages: it reduces the number of the unemployed on the live register by 25 per cent and provides us with the means of carrying out a range of activities on the environmental, tourist and educational fronts. That programme could gladly be undertaken by local authorities in conjunction with the Department of Labour. It is ridiculous to suggest that nothing can be done, as was suggested by the Minister's leader. It was not helpful when he announced that the recession would be a continuing phenomenon and that nothing could be done. If there is a will, there is a way. I believe the young people have the will, and that they will put their backs to the wheel if they are given some kind of leadership. However, they are not getting it. Hopefully, this agency will provide the means by which a new direction will be given to them.

I do not like to throw cold water on any effort undertaken to reduce our youth unemployment crisis, because any such effort is worthy of the greatest assistance, but I am concerned that there might be some duplication as between the new agency and existing agencies. The Minister should be prepared to state categorically that it is not intended in the immediate future, or in the medium future, to nullify the operations of agencies operating at present, because that could cause a considerable amount of confusion in those agencies which have been doing great work in the area of employment over the last few years.

There is not much point saying that these directions will be given to the agency. I do not care whom the Minister appoints to the agency so long as the job is done. He should pick the best he can, but there is a glaring omission here which the Minister can rectify by way of his own nominees. I do not wish to keep harping on this, but it is obvious that people have forgotten the west. The Minister should have a prominent person from the west nominated to that agency so that he can bring to their attention the plight of the people in the west. Since agriculture plays a dominant role in this country, there is need for an input from somebody well-versed in agricultural matters.

In the small farming area the meaning of the reference to accepted farmers is not readily understood. I presume the Minister had something specific in mind and it would be appreciated if he would give a categoric assurance that those under a valuation of £40 will not be expected to pay this levy because they are not normally in the tax bracket and the vast majority of them are in receipt of unemployment assistance. I take it that those in receipt of unemployment assistance or holders of medical cards will not have to pay this levy.

The Minister did not make it explicit in his Second Stage speech what he meant by accepted farmers paying this levy. He should remove the confusion that exists. I hope that the points raised by this side of the House have impressed the Minister. The Minister's Second Stage speech did not specify anything and offered only the hope that the agency would do a good job in creating new initiatives. It would have been a lot more helpful if the Minister had specified details of the scheme. I hope the Minister will deal with the suggestion of a national public works scheme which is long overdue. He is getting a glorious opportunity to introduce such a scheme now because he has the money and the freedom to do it. It would give a great fillip to the west and do a lot of good throughout the country. I welcome the Bill. I do not believe any Bill was ever introduced here that could deliver 100 per cent on what it proposed but this legislation is a step in the right direction. I hope it will be followed up by real action. If it is we will be happy that we went along with its provisions.

The length of the debate on this Bill is an indication of the extent of the problem of unemployment among our young people. The debate has covered all aspects relating to youth unemployment and I welcome that. I will not attack the Bill but make what I consider to be constructive points which have been made by organisations I have been associated with over the years. A youth employment agency was mooted three or four years ago by a number of groups. It was pursued with the last Government and was picked up by all political parties in the last election campaign. I should like to put on record the main points that were debated at that time in the various youth forums and at meetings that took place prior to the election. Fine Gael stated that they would establish a youth employment agency to integrate youth employment schemes. That party also said that they would prepare a register of the unemployed for information on job prospects. The Labour Party had a lot of details worked out about this problem and undertook to provide a range of continuing education facilities to help young people enrich their educational experience. The party also stated that there was a need for youth facilities, especially in the cultural, recreational, sporting and self-development areas and promised to introduce a national programme. They also stated that they were concerned to guarantee young workers uniform and appropriate conditions at work with proper conditions for all apprenticeships, block and day release facilities, standard work conditions and full integration into the work force in relation to representation.

The Bill goes along that line and it would be unfair to be critical of it. It is welcome in the overall sense because it does something constructive about a problem that was with the last Government, is with this Government and, probably, will be with the next. It would be unwise to be destructive about the Bill and I only wish to comment on the details of it. The Minister has not said anything about the objectives of the agency, its working methods or its relationship to existing institutions such as Manpower, AnCO or the other agencies or schemes that are in operation. There is data available about this. When I worked with the National Youth Council that data was available in the Department and I hope it will be reviewed in connection with the establishment of this agency.

There is an absolute need that the agency have power. One of our main problems at present is that there is a lack of co-ordination between the various bodies and that has tended to undermine a successful attack on youth unemployment. All the bodies concerned with youth unemployment are powerful in their own right with their own strong views and management and their own institutions which they are anxious to protect. It is hard to find any common ground between them. They all seem to give different sets of statistics. That is one of the great arguments for the establishment of one powerful agency. I presume those other bodies will not operate any more and that the Minister will ensure that there will be effective co-ordination between the schools, the agencies, placement services and Government Departments. I hope the existing institutions are broken up so as to ensure that there is just one body. That has always been my view. The most recent report on the problem was carried out by the Manpower Consultative Committee about two years ago. That committee investigated youth unemployment and the difficulties encountered by young people. At that time I was involved in youth organisations and I can recall that the committee met fairly frequently over a period of six months but took a long time to issue their report. They took the internationally accepted youth ages of 15 to 24 but could not come up with any statistics. Some believe that there are between 40,000 and 50,000 people in that age group unemployed but I do not believe anybody has the true figure. I presume one of the first jobs of the agency will be to examine the data sources on youth unemployment and investigate the extent of unemployment in the various age groups so that they can identify the problems they will have to face. The position at the moment is that despite there being a number of State agencies none of them have anything like what are considered to be the correct statistics. Some time ago the manpower consultative body reached the conclusion that the sources of the statistics are insufficient in terms of coverage and frequency and that the service should be improved. That seems a rather odd statement from a body who sat for a long time before producing a long report. On another occasion they said that the unemployment level so far as young people were concerned was unacceptably high. Is it not surprising that a major group would have only a statement in such general terms to make, a statement that would not be of much use to the Minister or to anybody else who had to deal with the problem? The first task of this agency should be to help as much as possible the various people and bodies dealing with this problem of employment for young people. Something should be done, too, in the area of the inter-departmental group on unemployment statistics. The committee to which I have referred concluded also that information on first-time jobs or on first-time registrations with the Manpower Service should be improved since information in this area is not readily available. The group go on to say that the absence of such information can only prevent accurate estimates being made of the level of youth unemployment. This is a point that the new agency must bear in mind but when we reach the Committee Stage of the Bill all these various details can be teased out.

I have had many meetings at which the question of youth employment was discussed. This is an area that always leads to heated discussion but we must bear in mind that this question is not a separate element. It is caused by the lack of job opportunities. There are now about 30,000 people each year entering the labour force from the various levels of education. We must concentrate on improving career guidance facilities in order to help these young people. Regardless of what anyone may say, this problem of unemployment will be with us for a long time. The number of people coming into the labour force is about twice the number who leave it by way of natural wastage — deaths and retirements. We can only conclude, therefore, that the employment situation will become much worse. It is estimated that by 1995 our labour force will have doubled the 1975 level. Such increase is not being experienced anywhere else in Europe. This leaves us with a special problem and presents great difficulty for young people leaving education. However, our job here is to do everything possible to improve the position. If we cannot eliminate the problem we must make every effort to reduce it. The points put forward by organisations such as the National Youth Council and the various other youth groups in the past years in relation to this type of agency should be noted carefully.

There is a need for us to move away from the type of curriculum that we have been following at second level education. We must concentrate on a proper mix of the academic and the practical so that on leaving school young people will be in a better position to find employment. It does not make sense to urge somebody to study Latin or French if he happens to be very good with his hands. Perhaps the Minister would use his influence with the Minister for Education in an effort to change what has always tended to be a bureaucratic Department — the Department of Education. If a student takes academic subjects in the leaving certificate he is more or less confined to jobs in the clerical field, whereas if there was a mix of the academic and the practical his chances of finding employment would be enhanced especially during a period of recession.

Any programme embarked on by this new agency must be geared towards long-term employment and not involved in simply putting people through a six-month course and then trying to pick up the pieces. There must be a follow through into the various levels of the agency. We have heard that the first step will be for the agency to establish themselves on a reliable day-to-day basis and to gather all the information that is available from schools, colleges and other agencies. The next step will be to try to establish a good working relationship with the various schools. Perhaps that is something that is being tackled now by the career guidance teachers. The agency may have to become involved in pre-employment courses, in the preparation of courses and careers and in giving advice to the career guidance teachers. As I have said, there is a need, too, to consider the whole question of the curricula. The emphasis must be on providing courses that will best help people to obtain employment but first the agency must determine the skills that are needed most. That should not prove too difficult.

Industry is crying out in certain areas for qualified people. Many of the career guidance courses I have attended were done by people willing to give their spare time to advising school leavers on what is needed in industry. It is of paramount importance that courses should be designed to meet the needs of industry, but many of the courses run by AnCO and those under the aegis of the work experience schemes have really no relevance. However, the exercise has been useful in that if one does not try something one can never be properly informed.

At the moment interviews can be very short and very snappy. Only the other night I spoke to a chap who went for interview on an electronics course. He struck me as a bright youth. He was given a few sums to do and he was asked to write something to test his aptitude. He had some experience of electricity and knew something about wiring. After 40 minutes' wait those for interview were told that was it. There was no talk about aptitude and no talk as to what this chap might do in some academic field. That was a course in an AnCO training centre. People in these organisations should appreciate that they are dealing with fellow human beings and not just numbers. They have an obligation to young people. They should help them along. They should have an understanding of their problems. The important thing is the link between the agency and the schools on one side and industry on the other. If this structure is not properly worked out, the agency, like so many other State organisations, will turn out to be a misnomer.

Local employment committees can be very important. They should be constituted of representatives from Manpower, AnCO, the local authorities, the schools, the trade unions and youth organisations. They are the people who could examine the particular problems of the area and ensure employment prospects. I represent the inner city area. It has its own peculiar problems. In the last few years Manpower, AnCO and the IDA have tried very hard to help the inner city area, but the projects have not worked too well. Possibly the school leavers in the area are not geared to these projects. In the next few days the Minister will be opening yet another centre in the inner city. I hope he will devote himself to some of the problems that exist. There is not much point in establishing some project without screening. If screening is not done the whole scheme will collapse. Trouble-makers will jeopardise the project and that is why I say those employed must be closely screened.

In Our Lady of Lourdes Parish there is a population of 7,000. Of that 7,000 only 72 are employed. That gives an indication of the severity of the problem. The statistic is almost unbelievable. A town outside Dublin with a similar population would have at least 3,000 or 2,500 employed. That shows the difficulties that exist in the inner city area. These problems must be dealt with and they must be dealt with on a separate basis. I look forward to hearing the Minister tell us about these special structures. The local representative is naturally much better informed about the problems that exist. The AnCO and Manpower schemes do very little while they cost a great deal of money.

The agency should have constructive preparation programmes with courses in schools aimed at developing work skills and improving vocational preparation. That could be of great benefit. These courses could be availed of by pupils who have left school but have not found employment. The course could be an intensive one in co-operation with local agencies, AnCO, Manpower, industry, the trade unions and so on. They could be work experience programmes or projects based on community service. The last Government instituted a number of these. Unfortunately they have now almost disappeared. The available work has diminished. They were good schemes. They provided employment for a limited number in areas where those employed saw the benefit of their work. These schemes worked very well even in areas where vandalism was rife. Not only did they provide jobs but they improved the overall position from the point of view of reducing vandalism. Vandalism was minimal. There was one project — I mentioned it earlier — in Seán McDermott Street. There was a youth employment scheme in regard to the local park. The landscaping was done by the youth and the amount of destruction subsequently was minimal. These schemes helped to reduce the unemployment figures. I would urge the Minister to continue them. They have a dual purpose in that they give people an interest in their own local area and at the same time some work experience.

Not enough information is made available to young people on the various occupations there are and the locations where employment opportunities are likely to arise. That is something that could be done very easily.

Debate adjourned.
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