asked the Minister for Education when he proposes to fill the vacancies in Kildare vocational schools for teachers of practical subjects.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Kildare Vocational Schools Vacancies.
3.
Appointments to teaching posts in vocational schools are made by the vocational education committees.
My Department operates a system of allocation of posts as woodwork and metalwork teachers to ensure a fair distribution of the available teachers. An application was made by County Kildare Vocational Education Committee for an allocation of a woodwork teacher to its scheme in 1981/82, but priority had to be given to other committees where it was considered there was greater need.
Is the Minister aware that there is always a shortage of teachers of practical subjects? This has existed for many years and it is no nearer a solution now than it was when it first came to my notice 15 years ago. Kildare Vocational Education Committee indicated in May that they wanted three teachers for practical subjects. Their forecast proved to be correct but, in July, they were notified by the Department that no teacher of practical subjects would be allocated to Kildare this year. I think it is the policy of the Department to supply replacements only and that no new teachers will be made available, even in an area like Kildare where the vocational school population has increased by 16.7 per cent.
Does the Minister feel that it is within the compass of his Department to provide sufficient teachers of practical subjects? We have an embarrassment of BAs, we have hundreds of national teachers who cannot get jobs, and surely the Department could go the whole hog and provide enough teachers of practical subjects, particularly now when there is a recession in the building industry which should mean there are qualified people available to undergo training to equip them to teach these subjects in our vocational schools.
The Deputy is correct in pointing out that there is an acute shortage of teachers of practical subjects. The situation can only be described as deplorable. However, the Deputy will be aware that there is a long period of training. In the case of most teachers of practical subjects there is a four-year period of training and therefore any change I hope to make in the intake of teachers of metalwork and woodwork during 1982 cannot have an improved effect on the system until four years hence. That is very regrettabe. The Deputy suggested that the situation has not improved in any way. I am afraid the situation will be worse in 1982 because of the change-over in the training system from the colleges in Wexford and elsewhere to Thomond College and because of the manner in which that was implemented.
In 1982 there will be no output of teachers in metalwork and woodwork. That will have an even greater adverse effect on the system because there will not be an output of teachers to meet even the normal vacancies through retirement. As the Deputy will be aware, every year all of the trained metalwork and woodwork teachers get employment because there are far more places than trained personnel. I have been examining the position in County Kildare in particular and I can only indicate to the House that there is a possibility that a woodwork and building construction post will be made available there because of a particular situation. If that can be effected I will communicate with the Deputy to let him know. I hope the House will understand that this is a difficulty that exists because of the shortage of teachers and it will be compounded because in 1982 there will be no output whatsoever of trained teachers of these subjects.
As a member of a vocational education committee I am appalled to hear about the position in 1982. The situation is very difficult already. After 1982 will there be an improvement?
In 1982 there will be a short-fall of 53 woodwork teachers and 255 metalwork teachers. That is by the autumn of 1982. The output of metalwork teachers from Thomond College in 1982 will be nil and the output of woodwork teachers will be nil. The output of woodwork teachers and metalwork teachers in 1983 will be 22 and 28, respectively. In 1984 the output will be 25 and 32, respectively. After that time the changes I intend to introduce there should be an improvement in the situation.
Does the Minister intend to follow the policy decisions taken that all post-primary schools, whether under the VECs or not, will be provided with teachers of practical subjects in the eighties?
I intend to take the necessary steps to endeavour to get people into training to fill the posts required so that such training can be provided in those schools. There is no point in making pious aspirations unless you do something about it.
I am sure the Minister will accept that I was not trying to blame him for the shortage of teachers, just as he would not blame his predecessor. However, would he try to get it home to the Department of Education that they have an academic bias, which is quite obvious, and that they have never succeeded in providing enough teachers of practical subjects. This has not been happening for only four years: it has been going on for 20, 30 or 40 years and it has not been solved. Surely the Department should apply themselves to this. Ministers for Education are migrant birds of passage and the Minister now there will find that is so, but the big machine will go on. It is high time somebody impressed on the Department that they have a duty to provide teachers of these practical subjects.
As Question Time goes on, I have been given the image of being a baby doll with a lamp and a migrant bird——
The Minister has a forked tongue as well as a forked tail.
I accept there is a serious short-fall in trained metalwork and woodwork teachers. There has been such a short-fall over a considerable number of years. The Deputy asked me to try to impress this on the Department. It has now been impressed upon them very clearly, and from now on I hope there will be a realistic attempt to put sufficient people in training to meet the real needs in this area. In the second level curriculum, unless and until we have a wide range of practical subjects throughout the schools and an appreciation of the needs of technology in modern society, we as a nation will be lost and I do not intend to allow that situation to develop.
Would the Minister agree that the decision to extend the period of training was a good one, welcomed by the teachers and the trade unions, and will he reassure me that the policy decision in regard to the intake to Thomond College — it was not easy to get recruits in the early seventies when there was plenty of employment around — will result in recruiting enough trainees to cater for all our schools? Most of the post-primary schools are demanding that we provide teachers for such practical courses. Does the Minister agree that the facilities in Thomond College for such training are among the best in Europe?
I have pointed out the situation that exists in Thomond. Though changes were made in the duration of the courses——
It was doubled.
——and they will have a beneficial effect, I think that at the time that decision was arrived at the difficulties brought about by the change-over should have been dealt with so that the change could have been phased in a different way. It is my intention to encourage and facilitate the ending of sufficient young and adult people to training so that our needs will be met. We must be realistic about this. As I said in 1983 and 1984, 28 and 32 people will come out as trained metalwork teachers to cater for a shortage of 255 posts. I appreciate the short-fall and the difficulty and what needs to be done. I will say no more than that. It is regrettable that others did not have the same appreciation four, three and two years ago.
That is not true.
In view of the fact that there is a shortage of these teachers, would the Minister consider allowing holders of full technological certificates, who are able to teach at third level but are not accepted as teachers at second level, to be eligible particularly during 1982 when the college will not be turning out trained teachers? There are many people who have full technological certificates who can teach apprentices but cannot teach at second level. This is an area in which we could easily fill the gap created by the lack of trained teachers.
I will look into that suggestion. In the meantime, if it is possible to provide a teacher of woodwork in the County Kildare VEC during this school year, I will do so and communicate directly with Deputy Power.