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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 25 Mar 1982

Vol. 333 No. 4

Imposition of Duties (No.259) (Excise Duties) Order, 1982, and the Imposition of Duties (No.260) (Excise Duty on Video Players) Order, 1982: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann takes note of excise duty increases imposed by the Imposition of Duties (No. 259) (Excise Duties) Order, 1982 and the Imposition of Duties (No. 260) (Excise Duty on Video Players) Order, 1982, copies of which orders were laid before Dáil Éireann on 12 March, 1982.

The effect of these Imposition of Duties Orders is to increase the tax element in certain goods liable to excise duty with effect from 13 March.

The list of tax increases, including VAT at 15 per cent where appropriate, is as follows:

4p per pint of beer;

6p per glass of spirits, or 3p on the normal half-glass measure;

30p per bottle of table wine, with pro rata increases for stronger wines;

6p per gallon excise on cider and perry, with pro rata increases for stronger cider and perry;

10p per packet of 20 cigarettes in the most popular price category, with pro rata increases for cigars and tobacco;

excise duty increased from 50 per cent to 60 per cent for cars over 16 hp;

£17 excise duty on large colour television sets, pro rata increase for other sets;

the full rate of duty on gaming machines increased to £150 per machine, with the weekend rate increased to £100 per machine;

the rate of duty for special exemption orders, club extensions etc. was increased to £50 for orders issued in respect of functions on or after 1 July 1982;

a new excise duty of £20 per player was introduced on video players.

These tax changes formed part of the budget proposals which were put forward during the election campaign. In the interest of minimising the revenue lost by the delay in implementing the budget, the Government, on taking office, decided that these changes should be brought into effect as soon as possible, rather than waiting until today. The extra tax yield in 1982 resulting from this course of action is estimated at about £2½ million.

The taxes were imposed by means of orders under the Imposition of Duties Act. This Act was passed unanimously by this House in 1957 and it gave clear powers to the Government to act in this way, subject to confirmation of the changes in legislation by the end of the following year. In fact, we propose to include the excise duty changes in the forthcoming Finance Bill rather than wait for the period which the Act allows.

The Imposition of Duties Act does not provide for a debate in the House for orders of this type. However, since increases of this nature would normally come before the House on budget day by way of financial resolutions, the Government considered it desirable that the House should be given the opportunity to debate the increases today.

I might contrast the procedure which we have followed with that followed by the Coalition Government in December 1974, when they used the provisions of this Act to increase petrol prices by 30 per cent, involving an increase of almost two-thirds in the tax content of a gallon of petrol. This increase, you will note, was far greater than any of the measures included in our orders. Yet the Government at that time did not offer a debate and a vote on the measure in this House at all. A statement was made to the House by the then Minister for Finance and no debate was allowed. It was only when we put down a motion demanding the withdrawal of the increases that time for a debate was given.

There is no need for me to dwell on the reasons for these tax increases. There is agreement on both sides of the House that the level of Government borrowing must be reduced and it is appropriate in these circumstances that less essential expenditures such as alcoholic drinks, tobacco, televisions and videos should be asked to make a greater contribution. I am aware of the difficulties being faced at present by the drinks industry in particular. The level of tax increase imposed in this area was kept to the minimum for this reason. I will be glad to give the House any further information sought on the increases and to reply to any points raised in the debate.

The excise duty increases being proposed appear to be those that are necessary in order to achieve the budgetary objectives which we set out in January and which the Minister claims now he shares. In fact, he has made that claim since January. However, the increases proposed in the excise duty on beer, spirits and cigarettes are considerably greater in this proposal than those proposed in January. Last January we proposed an increase of 2p on the pint of beer but this evening the Minister is proposing an increase of 4p. The Minister has said that the proposed increases are necessary in order to achieve the objectives of the budget. He also said that the increase proposed is being kept to the minimum possible that is consistent with that. I should like to remind the Minister that on 27 January he voted against an increase of 2p on the pint of beer. He did so in company with other Fianna Fáil Members and a number of others. This evening I want Deputies on the Government side, and other members on this side, to bear this in mind. I also want the general public to bear that in mind.

But we are not removing food subsidies or putting VAT on clothing or footwear. There is a vast difference.

On that occasion it was said that the increases we were proposing were beyond what could be borne. We were told since then that the increases we proposed were cruel, inhuman and a lot of other things but an increase of double what we proposed is now being described as the minimum that is consistent with the budgetary objectives. We have been told that is the minimum needed in order to keep us within the financial targets the Minister was talking about.

Not on beer alone doth man live.

Today it is proposed to replace the proposed increase of 2p on beer by an increase of 4p, replace the 4p on the glass of spirits by 6p and replace the 8p by 10p on cigarettes. Those increases come within the category of what was described by the Minister and his colleagues on 27 January, and since, as being increases beyond what could be borne by the ordinary person, the man in the street, the man who wanted his pint in the evening, one of the few pleasures in life that he could still afford. Deputies on the Government side spent a great deal of time in January castigating us for the other measure we took to alleviate the rate of duty on beer, spirits and cigarettes among other things.

And shoes and clothes.

The kind of excercise we are withnessing now shows the fallacy of the position adopted by Fianna Fáil on 27 January and since. It is clear that the position they took up on 27 January and since is one which they have gradually had to change. It was said on 28 January that we did not need to achieve the kind of targets which the Minister has patted himself on the back for including in his budget. Earlier he prided himself on the claim that he would turn out with a current budget deficit less than the one we proposed in our January budget. He said he considered it a matter of some importance that he should do that. I am not convinced by his argument because his provision for tax buoyancy outlined to us this afternoon is greater than the difference between the £715 million current deficit we proposed in January and the deficit he has said he would come out with at the end of the year.

The fact is that we can now see how little foundation there was for what the Minister and his colleagues said on 27 January. They rapidly came to accept the basic aim of what we were proposing. They also had to accept that what we had been doing since last July was the kind of course that was necessary to achieve the objective the Minister has put before us today as the one which should properly be achieved by our budget strategy. I am anxious to make sure that all Members, and the general public, know that instead of voting against a 2p excise duty increase in January as they did they are now asking us to accept an increase of double that amount. The Minister is not doing that simply because he thinks he took the wrong course on 27 January. It is because he, and his colleagues, have now come to accept that the course we laid out since last July is the one they are forced to accept.

One thing that sickened me more than anything else in the last election campaign was the frequency with which Fianna Fáil repeated a commitment to employment even though their past policies have resulted in us having the highest number of people unemployed. The beer industry is on its last legs; breweries have let hundreds of workers go and there is a danger that hundreds more will be laid off.

Is the Deputy on his knees?

I suppose Deputy Gene Fitzgerald, who as a former Minister for Finance is responsible for the mess we are in today, does not care about Murphy's brewery in Cork or the Guinness brewery in Dublin. I should like to ask him to desist from his ignorant remarks to which this House has become accustomed.

I did not make the remark the Deputy has referred to.

Mea culpa.

Obviously, the Deputy is not so balanced. I did not open my mouth at all. The Deputy is excited.

I am glad the Deputy is out of the Department of Finance and I am sure it is a great relief to many.

There are many glad that the Deputy is now out of Justice.

Including myself. I do not think the Deputy was so glad to have left Finance. Our brewing industry in the Ceann Comhairle's own constituency is in very serious trouble. The work force there has already been halved and it will be more than halved again. There are about 2,500 there and half of those have been told they will be going in another development plan because of the penal taxation that is inhibiting sales both in this country and abroad. The situation is so serious that the likelihood is that our brewing industry will lose the very substantial export market it enjoys especially in the UK. I am absolutely amazed that this Government, that so hypocritically repeated its dedication to full employment and to reducing unemployment, by their very first action make it more likely that even more jobs will be lost in the brewing industry. Has the Minister given this matter the slightest consideration? Has he considered what sort of redundancy he is creating in the brewing industry, what share of the export market we shall lose because of the problems created in that industry? I think that not the slightest consideration has been given to it.

That is why the previous budget which was defeated had a proposal for a much lower rate of increase in excise duty. It was that particular proposal that was defeated and precipitated the general election which brought this Government into power. As Deputy Dukes said, they are back here doubling it or trebling it because the total effect of all this will be to increase the price of the pint by 10½p in the pubs. The Minister, Deputy MacSharry, has introduced the punt pint and will lose hundreds and hundreds of jobs and he will add to our balance of payment difficulties.

I want to address my remarks to some of the people in the opposite benches. They are the people who brought down the Government on this very issue only six weeks ago. The voted against a lower rate.

What about clothes and footwear and the food subsidies?

Deputy Mitchell, without interruption.

I am obviously getting home to some of these Deputies. I ask Deputies who pride themselves on consistency and integrity how can they support today a proposal to increase the excise duty on beer twice or perhaps three times as much as was proposed in the January budget which they voted against especially when it is a proposal which in the cities of Dublin and Cork particularly will cost hundreds of jobs? We know for months back that in Guinness's Brewery in Dublin — in which I must declare my interest because I have a long connection with that company — 1,200 jobs are threatened already. Is Deputy Brennan going to make his maiden speech from the Lobby — motorway Ned?

Will Deputy Mitchell please continue on the resolution?

Listen to Mitchell's "Jail Journal".

I would not wish to transgress the rules of the House but I am sure you will also rule that interruptions from outside the barriers are out of order.

Totally out of order.

I do not suppose Deputy Brennan will be suspended before this vote is taken. However, this is a very serious matter because the major central problem facing the country had been the same for the past five years and will be the same for the remainder of the century and that is employment. Here is one of our few home industries being screwed into the ground by the Government. I appeal to Members, in the interest of employment and in the interest of preserving our market, particularly in the UK to which we export 50 per cent of our stout thereby helping the balance of payments, to reject this proposal.

Deputies on the other side have asked how we can support this proposal and I want to place on record the reasons why I will particularly support this proposal and why my colleagues will do so. Deputies opposite seem to have forgotten what they were about in their budget. I want to remind them of one or two specific items. Deputy Mitchell talks about employment. If their budget had gone through, these proposals produced here this evening, without this extra revenue being introduced by the Minister for Finance now, the health, services would have to suspend 2,500 jobs for a start.

(Interruptions.)

That is the figure that was on the table.

That was due to your 1981 budget.

(Interruptions.)

Let the Deputy take some medicine from the Minister for Health.

Deputy L'Estrange will have an opportunity to speak shortly.

They also proposed having a means test on the handicapped, closing down over 1,000 beds throughout the country including psychiatric, ophthalmic and dental services. These are well known facts and I could go into many more in regard to the health services. The Minister today, by collecting this extra revenue — I want the people outside the House to recognise this——

On a point of order, I fail to see how what the Minister is saying is relevant to the resolution before us. Both yourself and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle have rightly sought to keep debate within the limits of the resolution before the House. I appreciate you have difficulty in doing that and, with respect, I submit that the Minister is talking about problems of his own Department and not directing his mind to the resolution.

He is giving reasons why the present duty is being imposed now.

May we all do that?

Will the Deputy please wait? The Minister is replying in his contribution to what Deputy Mitchell said.

He is doing no such thing.

I addressed myself at all times to the question of excise duty on beer and the problems it will create in the brewing industry and nothing else. I have to support Deputy Shatter in saying that the Minister for Health and Social Welfare is completely off the track and out of order.

I was explaining why. I am trying to say where the money is going, which is the other side of the coin. I want to point out briefly that this money is also going to avoid taxing social benefits which they proposed to tax; to avoid taking away the food subsidies——

You proposed that years ago.

——to avoid the 18 per cent footwear and clothing value added tax which they proposed. In addition to the benefits proposed by the Opposition side, this money is also going to provide for the handicapped. That money was not being provided on that side of the House because, first, they did not intend to provide for domiciliary care increases. They did not intend, or propose in their budget——

On a point of order, may I ask if it will now be open to Members on this side of the House to debate general health and social welfare policy?

I am ruling now. The Minister is explaining why, just as Deputy Mitchell had an opportunity to explain.

Deputies

Not at all.

(Interruptions.)

In conclusion, this money being raised by the Minister for Finance will provide for domiciliary care for the handicapped and for improved mobility allowances. Additional to the proposals of the earlier budget, it will also provide capitation grants for those in training. I have been trying to point out that these moneys are providing for extra benefits. I want those who will have to pay the moneys to recognise that this is where the moneys are going.

I doubt that the general public can provide the moneys for these measures.

It is for a particularly good, valid and human reason, just as improvements in social welfare generally were.

Deputy Boland.

One of the reasons——

A Cheann Comhairle, I was called upon to speak.

I call Deputy Boland.

The Chair called me. How can he call Deputy Boland?

I call Deputy Boland.

The Chair called me before the Minister for Health appeared.

I call Deputy Boland. I am afraid Deputy Harte will have to resume his seat.

The Chair need not be afraid about that. I will do that.

Please resume your seat.

I am saying that the Chair called me before the Minister, Deputy Woods. What is wrong about that?

(Interruptions).

I take exception to that remark, Deputy Harte. I shall have to ask you to withdraw it, or leave the House.

What remark?

You will have to withdraw it, or leave the House.

For what reason?

Because you said that I was biassed. You will have to withdraw that remark.

How could I do that?

Deputy Harte, I am asking you to withdraw that remark, or you will have to leave the House.

Does the Chair really want me to withdraw the remark that he is biassed?

On what grounds?

On the grounds that you will have to withdraw the remark, or leave the House. This is disorderly.

I did not say that the Chair was biassed.

The Deputy is being disorderly. If he does not stop he will have to be put out of the House for disorderly behaviour.

I only interrupted the Chair once.

Would you resume your seat, please?

The Chair.

Sit properly.

On a point of order——

Yes, on a point of order, Deputy.

On a point of order, before Deputy Boland came into the House, I offered to speak before the Minister for Health. The Chair called me and then he saw the Minister for Health and I gave way to him.

I did not call you.

Yes, the Chair did. Of course he did.

Deputy Harte, I am ruling now and if you do not like the ruling, you can do something about it. I am calling Deputy Boland.

I do not care what the Chair is ruling. I am establishing exactly what the Chair did.

Deputy Harte, would you resume your seat, please?

I did not tell a lie to the House.

Deputies

Now, now.

I want to say, Sir——

Will you resume your seat, or else I shall ask you to leave the House? I am calling Deputy Boland now.

I hope that the Chair will call me before midnight, because I have a few important things to say.

I hope you have.

Naturally.

I will not be telling a lie to the House.

Deputy Harte, you had better elaborate on that statement now.

I will not be telling a lie to the House.

If there is anything else intended in that, you had better make a statement about it.

I am surprised at the Deputy. He is not doing the House justice.

I call Deputy Boland.

I am up and down here.

Deputy Boland, I called you. When you are called, you should now make your contribution.

I keep getting caught in the crossfire.

I am asking you now to make your contribution.

I had been about to leave the House when I heard the Minister for Health start to make his contribution. I cannot help but say, even at this late hour, that one of the reasons we are on the third budget in eight months and the prime reason as to why this House and this country are in their present state is because of the previous record of the last speaker. For a man to come in here and seek to justify the additional increases placed now on beer and cigarettes over and above what he and his colleagues voted against on 27 January is just preposterous. For a man to come in here and say that there are so many hospital beds to be closed, so many hospital units which cannot be opened, so many different aspects of the Department for Health and the Department of Social Welfare underfinanced is totally to misrepresent the situation.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The measures which were necessary last July in the supplementary budget, and again in the proposed budget at the beginning of this year were, in such large measure, occasioned by the perambulations of the Minister for Health and Social Welfare around the country, spending, promising, committing funds over and above his committed Book of Estimates to the extent that more than £70 million over and above that provided for his Department last year had been spent by the middle of July last. All of that £70 million was spent and committed, not on the basis of moneys voted by this House, not on the basis of moneys provided for in the Book of Estimates provided for his Department, but on the basis of his individual promises made during his election forays throughout the length and breadth of Ireland.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

How about the July budget?

Deputy Boland, without interruption, please.

The July budget and many of the changes which had to take place in the Department of Health and the Department of Social Welfare, including, let it be suggested, certain personal decisions made by senior personnel there, were occasioned because of the irresponsible attitude of a Minister who overcommitted, overspent his Estimates and——

Nonsense.

——left his officials behind him to carry the can.

Deputies

True, true.

The Deputy must be joking.

It is one of the most irresponsible contributions I have heard in this House for a long time, for a man to come in here, direct from his yoga exercises, presumably in the Department, having, presumably, recently stood on his head while his officials read out his memorandum, and attempt to justify increases over and above what he voted against six weeks ago, on the basis of what was necessary because of his irresponsible attitude during his previous tenure in that Department, is just beyond belief.

It is now late at night and I have been here for some hours. The debate up to that point had been conducted with some modicum of responsibility and people attempted to address themselves to the resolutions before the House. This is the man who during his previous tenure there was so largely the author of the problems now in the Custom House — or indeed, more especially during whichever occasions he got himself released from the Custom House to go on his irresponsible spending sprees throughout the country, committing money left, right and centre which was not provided for either by vote of this House or in the Book of Estimates.

We provided £40 million. The Deputy is very far from the truth.

He is attempting to justify the fact that he now believes, hand on heart and in all sincerity, that it is vitally necessary that these additional increases should be imposed so that he can, once again, run the Department of Health and Social Welfare presumably into the ground — the Department traditionally regarded as having one of the best corps of civil servants, the Department once regarded as being one of the most efficient of the Government Departments, once regarded as being the Department most likely to live within its Estimates, in which the aireacht was established, which was supposed to be the model Department, the Department which, in his short term of office, fell apart, overspent by the biggest margin and had the biggest Supplementary Estimates, the greatest amount of chaos and the greatest amount of difficulties presented to the incoming Government last July. It is totally unacceptable that, of all of the previous office holders, this man, above all others, should come in here in this sanctimonious way and attempt to justify his reason for voting for increases in the cost of the pint of beer, double what he voted against six weeks ago.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I merely intervene because it would be wrong not to express my disgust at this resolution. As Deputy Boland said, this is the very issue which brought down the previous Government. This is the issue which brought down the previous Government. Before the last budget I was inundated with deputations from publicans in Border areas pointing out to me in the aftermath of Christmas that many public houses had not sold a bottle of whiskey as is traditional for Christmas presents, because they were buying it north of the Border where it is cheaper. They were imploring me to point this out to Deputy Bruton, the then Minister for Finance, because we are losing trade, not only from people from Northern Ireland who no longer come across on a Sunday evening but people from the Republic are now going to Northern Ireland to buy drink. Even by paying duty, it is still cheaper to buy spirits and beer in Northern Ireland. Deputy MacSharry should have some knowledge of this. Publicans in Border areas may put up the shutters and close down.

When I rose to say these things, Deputy Woods also got to his feet but a moment earlier than I had and the Ceann Comhairle had called on me, I gave way to Deputy Woods and I am sure he will confirm that that is what happened. I have not told a lie, I have put on record exactly what happened——

Tell us about the bottle of whiskey.

Deputy Harte should be allowed to proceed without interruption.

Deputy Wilson, you go back to Monaghan town and tell the people there that you voted against the budget in January, but that budget was our answer to the problem which you created and have run away from in this budget. Deputy Wilson, you go to the publicans in Monaghan, Castleblayney, Ballybay and Carrickmacross and give them the good news that your party just wanted to get back into Government. That is what it is all about, getting back into Government.

I am getting lonely here. Could you address me?

You are very lucky to be there because, if fair play had been observed, you would not be there.

On a point of order, the Ceann Comhairle has ruled that it is in order for any Member of the House to explain in full all the reasons why he takes whatever view he takes of the increases that are being proposed. He allowed Deputy Woods to give us a very wide-ranging explanation of the reasons why he was going to vote. Deputy Harte is well within the limits of what the Ceann Comhairle set out for Deputy Woods.

While normally I would agree with Deputy Dukes, I think the Ceann Comhairle said he was allowing Government Members to range as widely as they liked but Opposition Members should——

(Interruptions.)

To give the Leas-Cheann Comhairle his due, I think he has better understanding of Standing Orders than the Ceann Comhairle.

You are being somewhat irrelevant and I am asking you to direct your thoughts to the motion before us.

I was paying you a compliment and I hope you will accept it.

Thank you very much.

There are very few people in your party to whom I would pay compliment. You are one of the gentlemen of the party. There are a few more but they are hard to find. On the evening of the last budget a visitor to the House, an Irish born person but living abroad, could not understand how there could be a General Election on the result of a vote on beer and spirits, particularly when the Government that were proposing these items in that budget had attempted to redistribute wealth in a manner in which it had never been done before. No other Government had tried to redistribute wealth in the manner in which Deputy Bruton as Minister for Finance, Deputy FitzGerald, as Taoiseach, and Deputy O'Leary, as Tánaiste had tried to guide the former administration.

(Interruptions.)

I know people who whistle going past graveyards too. The only difference is that they whistle and members of Fianna Fáil laugh. Hyenas also laugh, although they do not know why. In the redistribution of wealth as proposed in the January budget which was brought down on this very issue, there was an increase on beer and spirits. In that budget the poorer sections of our community were being catered for and it is utter hypocrisy for Deputy Woods to say the money is needed to restore those services when he voted against the measure that was to continue those services in January. There is no consistency in what he said and I think the House should take note of that.

My point is that in the few weeks leading up to the previous budget, people came to me in groups and as individuals, representing the vintners of Donegal and Monaghan, asking me to petition the Minister for Finance to take into consideration the price at which drink was being charged for already. That was only a couple of weeks after Christmas and they were able to tell from their Christmas takings that the cost of beer and spirits in the Republic of Ireland was far in excess of the cost in Northern Ireland. Not only had the people of Northern Ireland ceased to come across to buy here but our people were going over there. Deputy Wilson knows that, and Deputy Lenihan knows it.

Nonsense.

What is nonsense? I hope the Northern Standard carries that tomorrow.

I hope so, too.

Whatever the Deputy knows about posts and telegraphs and about school teaching he knows damn all about the price of food, beer and spirits.

I thank the Deputy for that one.

The Taoiseach has told us that Northern Ireland was not an issue in the general election. He has made it an issue since the election. I live along the Border. I have made my contribution to efforts to bring both sides together but I did so in the realisation that you cannot talk about Irish unity and at the same time put divisions between the Irish people, whether they are political, economic or social. That is what Fianna Fáil have been doing since the foundation of the State. They have set up economic, political, social and other divisions, even a monetary division when they broke with sterling.

I know you have the capacity to be relevant to the motion before us. There will be other opportunities when you can be as eloquent as you want and still be entirely in order. I am asking you to confine your comments to the terms of the motion and forget about what previous speakers said, perhaps in error.

The motion is about increases in the prices of beer and spirits and I have been pointing out that Partition is not just a line on the map. It is a thing that separates people, whether economically, culturally, politically or socially. That party over there, of which a decent man like you has the bad luck to be a member, have pursued policies since 1932 which were not consistent with their supposed desire for national unity. Indeed they have done more against unity than the most bigoted Orangeman in the North of Ireland. That is something-they cannot run away from. Any of them who do not know that should pay a visit there and find out.

Fianna Fáil have thrown away their right to talk about Irish unity. Everything they have done and are doing is divisive. They cannot even take into consideration the possibility of maintaining some kind of uniformity of price levels in regard to beer and spirits. Before we entered Europe we were told all about the importance of such membership. We were told that the economies of all EEC nations would be harmonised, that the German mark could buy goods in France, that the French franc could buy the same amount in Germany, and so on. They were the dreams, but we never got that far. If we are serious about bringing both parts of the island together then we should be trying to get harmonisation instead of division and inequality. I protest because a party which cry from the rooftop about unity, do so from the pinnacle of hypocrisy. They have not made a single contribution towards achieving unity, apart from glossy well-phrased remarks addressed to the press of the world in posh hotels in London, Washington and New York. They ignored the fact that —and I am talking now about——

Nothing.

I wish Deputies would stay awake and they would hear me. I am talking about the prices of beer and spirits——

What about the empty stomachs?

For anybody who made a million from selling land you are a fine man to talk about empty stomachs.

Will you allow me to put the question on the motion?

No. I will when I have concluded. I will not be too long. I hope the Taoiseach is listening to me when I say that if we are serious about healing the divisions between North and South we must first of all try to harmonise the economies of both parts of Ireland. We must foster reasonable levels of tolerance. There must be some similarity between the prices of commodities on both sides of the Border. Otherwise the divisions will be maintained, and divisions mean partition. Our purpose in going into the EEC was to enjoy the benefits of harmonisation. Instead, the Irish pound is useless to buy goods in six Irish counties. That is because Fianna Fáil have been in power for the greater part of 40 years. Their hypocritical essays on unity have been with the purpose of keeping Fianna Fáil in power, just like the Taoiseach's remarks last week in the US.

Deputy Harte, please resume your seat.

Because I have asked you to do so. When the Chair rises you are required to resume your seat.

My apologies.

If you do not direct your remarks to the motion before the House, without further notice I will ask you to leave.

I know that what you have asked me to do is correct. I have already said to you that your interpretation of Standing Orders is much more pure than the Ceann Comhairle's, who ruled quite differently when Deputy Woods was speaking. However, I will abide by your ruling, but would point out that there is great inconsistency between the ways you are ruling now and what the Ceann Comhairle ruled. I do not know what the explanation is, but that is for the record. I just want to say what brought me to my feet. I did not intend to speak for so long. I want to appeal to the Government, on behalf of the publicans and the people they employ in Border areas, to reconsider the prices they are putting on beer and spirits. They were bad in the January budget, but before that budget I put a petition before the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Bruton, asking him to take these difficulties into consideration. Those difficulties have been exacerbated by the further increases which were not voted here tonight but announced by the Taoiseach a fortnight ago, two days after he became Taoiseach, and the Minister for Finance did not even know about it until the following morning. It is a deplorable situation that a Government party which when in Opposition voted against this resolution should now do this.

The Deputy is now being grossly disorderly and I am asking him to leave the House.

How, Sir?

You are disobeying my ruling and making little of my request to you. I announced earlier that if you did not address yourself to the resolution I would ask you to leave the House. You did initially, but you have strayed away again. I am asking the Deputy to leave the House.

I am pointing out to the Members now——

(Interruptions.)

I will look after the Chair, Deputy L'Estrange.

You should use a certain amount of discretion. I am now addressing my remarks to the Government Members and pointing out to them that it is wrong for them to do what they are doing. If you see this as irrelevant I will leave the House, but I will leave it in protest. It is wrong for the Government to impose the increases that they did in the manner in which they did it, having voted against smaller increases in a previous budget, having misled the people I am talking about. That is the point I am making. If that is irrelevant I will leave the House.

The propriety or otherwise of it is not relevant on this motion. The fact is that the resolution is before the House and we are asked to and given an opportunity to ask questions to get a certain elucidation on what is proposed. We are not entitled to question or query at this stage of the debate. Later on we will be entitled to do it, but not now.

(Cavan-Monaghan): On a point of order, might I point out that you have been ruling during the evening as you have now stated, but before you came into the Chair the Ceann Comhairle was in the Chair for some considerable time and he allowed a discussion on the effects of these taxes on unemployment and things like that. I just think it right to tell you that. Despite points of order the debate was broadened a good bit.

I was not present during the time to which the Deputy refers. I think Deputy Fitzpatrick and Deputy Harte and everybody else appreciates that on the debate on Financial Resolutions there is a limitation which we all must endure. There will be other opportunities when we can develop points and speak at much greater length. On Financial Resolutions however the requirement is that we confine ourselves to what is in the resolution and not what should be, not the history of it or anything else. We are required to devote our thoughts specifically to what is in the resolution.

(Cavan-Monaghan): I would not disagree with the Chair, but I want to point out that I think it is a bit difficult when one ruling is given for one half of the debate on a particular motion and another ruling given for the remainder of the debate. It makes things very difficult for Members of the House and I respectfully suggest that within standards set by the Ceann Comhairle this debate should be allowed to conclude on this motion.

I do not want to delay the House much longer. These are my final remarks. I accept the ruling of the Chair. In normal circumstances such a debate would not be taking place. But these are abnormal circumstances because this motion before the House is already in operation by a Government directive. So we cannot vote against it. So there must be a certain amount of leeway allowed. For a party to suggest seriously that they are honest in their approach, having voted against increases in beer and spirits in the January budget, having undoubtedly given promises to the people to whom I have referred — and no doubt many of those promises were made to publicans in the Cavan-Monaghan constituency——

Any promises we make to publicans we keep.

Thanks for telling the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to shut up.

I hope we can get this thing finished some time.

It is good job somebody can tell him to shut up. He is a little bit more polite when the Taoiseach tells him to shut up than when someone like you tells him to keep quite.

I never use language like that.

(Interruptions.)

I used a little Latin phrase to my colleague.

The Taoiseach could have picked another European language too.

The Deputy will not come between John Wilson and myself no matter what he does.

Deputy Harte is the only Deputy in relation to whom I have broken my own word. I would ask him to conclude now.

I am concluding. It is wrong in the extreme for a party to vote against a resolution in one budget and convince their supporters that they were against that, and then knife them in the back by introducing it as a Government directive and not putting it in here and letting the House debate it. In one case the increase is 50 per cent and in the other 100 per cent. I hope the publicans in Border counties take note of this. They will know about it because it is hurting them.

On my first budget day in the Dáil I, along with the other Cork Deputies, had to endure a ten minute lecture from the Minister for Labour about the effect price increases would have on the brewing and distilling industries in Cork. I am here representing a constituency that has two breweries and one distillery and a major unemployment problem. I would like an undertaking from the Minister for Finance that he will ensure that employment will not be affected by his proposals here this evening and that he will take all necessary steps to maintain employment in these industries. I would like to hear his comments.

Are there any more questions or can we give the Minister an opportunity to conclude?

Arising out of the motion and the items contained in it there were no specific questions. There were various political statements, which I do not intend to reply to at this late stage. In reply to the last question, I met the parties concerned yesterday and had a full discussion with them. I am prepared to consider certain suggestions they put to me.

I thank the House for its co-operation during the day. Before the debate developed I understood the Fine Gael Whip to have agreed to the motion and I hope it is agreed.

Question put and agreed to.
The Dáil adjourned at 11.45 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 30 March 1982.
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