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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Jun 1982

Vol. 335 No. 6

Finance Bill, 1982: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill confirms the taxation changes which I announced in my budget statement of 25 March and I am also using the opportunity to introduce some improvements in the tax code which are aimed at achieving a fairer and a more efficient system. Some of the new tax measures proposed in the budget, though perhaps of relatively minor importance in the overall context, involve substantial changes in existing tax provisions. These changes are incorporated in the Bill and I will clarify them for Deputies in the course of this speech.

Before I speak on the details of the Bill, I would like to refer briefly to the budgetary and taxation strategy which is being followed by the Government. I do not intend today to give a comprehensive account of the Government's overall approach to the economy. This will be contained in the medium-term economic plan which is now being prepared.

In the course of my budget statement I said that the Government's principal concern was to achieve a proper balance between reducing our borrowing needs and improving employment. I also underlined our commitment to a fairer system of taxation. We are making progress this year in reducing borrowing for day-to-day purposes. In our budget projections we are within the limit for the year recommended by the EEC and I am hopeful that these projections can be realised. The PRSI tax concession of £312 which was introduced in April will reduce tax revenue by £45 million this year. I have said previously that this has to be made good. A major review of departmental expenditures has recently been completed and the results of this review are now being evaluated in my Department. It is hoped that this will provide substantial savings but, if there is still a shortfall on the £45 million, then I will consider taxation options.

As regards the budget targets, I would like to remind the House that the quarterly figures this year do not give an accurate reflection of the trend in the current deficit. The pattern of the deficit this year is unusual in that the budget was delayed and interest payments were higher than normal in the first quarter, while a significant proportion of the additional revenue raised in the budget will not accrue until the final quarter. The deficit at the end of March was 58 per cent of the projection for the year as a whole and was in line with expectations. As estimates of receipts and expenditure are not built up on a quarterly basis, it is not possible to make firm forecasts of the precise level of the deficit in each quarter. Broadly speaking, however, the deficit by end-June should be of the order of 100 per cent of the figure for the year as a whole and this figure should be significantly exceeded by end-September. As I have said, the real impact of extra tax receipts will not be felt until the final quarter of the year particularly because of VAT on imports. In that quarter revenue should significantly exceed expenditure and thus ensure that the budget targets for the year as a whole are achieved.

Borrowing for capital purposes must be viewed in a different light. I am not advocating unrestricted borrowing for capital development as this would be entirely wrong. We must be selective but we must at the same time be prepared to borrow at a substantial level for sound investment projects which will strengthen our economy and provide a worthwhile return in due course. I want to emphasise the need for greater selectivity. There is a growing concern that much of our capital investment in the past has failed to produce an adequate return and we must be more cautious in future about the uses to which this borrowing is put. In short, there will have to be much more exhaustive analysis of proposals for capital investment.

I have mentioned already the Government's concern to achieve a fairer system of taxation. I expect that the first report of the Commission on Taxation will be published shortly. The commission have been conducting a comprehensive examination of our taxation system for the past two years; they are representative of different interests within the community and their recommendations should provide a basis for substantial changes in the tax code. The commission's terms of reference require them to make recommendations which will achieve an equitable incidence of taxation. While we are making progress towards a fairer system, the present arrangements leave much to be desired. We must ensure, more so than at present, that the heavier burden falls on those who are in the best position to pay and that the tax net is more widely spread.

This must not be confused, however, with the issue of the overall level of taxation. Many people feel that there is simply too much taxation and this attitude is understandable. While the overall burden of taxation here is high, it is not out of line with taxation levels in other European countries generally. Comparisons are difficult because of the problems of matching statistics from various countries but the general indications are that our overall tax revenue is set at a reasonable level. One of our problems is that the base for collection of this revenue is too narrow. This base has to be broadened and this means that we have to find new tax sources and that those who do not make a fair contribution at present will have to pay more.

More fundamentally, however, there is now a wide imbalance between the levels of expenditure and revenue. Either expenditure is too high or taxation is too low. If the overall level of taxation in the broadest sense has virtually reached its maximum potential, then the only conclusion is that the level of Government expenditure is too high and must be reduced and policies must be directed to this end. There is no other option. In this regard I would like to emphasise in the strongest possible terms that there is no question of public expenditure being out of control. Public expenditure is high because of deliberate policy decisions taken by successive Governments. As I have already implied, the reality must now be faced that this high expenditure is at the core of our present financial difficulties.

I would now like to turn to individual items in the Bill. Some of the proposals in the budget have been modified and I will draw special attention to these changes. I will also deal at some length with items of significance which were not spelt out in any detail in the budget.

Sections 1 to 3 are concerned with the changes announced in the budget in the income tax exemption limits, allowances and rate bands. Let me clarify once again the purpose of these changes. They are designed to have substantially the same effect, for individual taxpayers, as the tax credit proposals of 27 January. A comparison of the two approaches shows this very clearly. Both the tax credit proposals and the budget changes involve a redistribution of the income tax burden to the benefit of lower and middle-income groups. In the case of the proposals of 27 January, this was to be achieved by tax credits. In the budget it is achieved by improvements in the personal allowances and adjustments to the 35 per cent rate bands. The budget changes have substantially the same effect as the tax credit proposals of 27 January, but without the administrative difficulties associated with tax credits.

Section 4 deals with the benefit-in-kind from the use of a company car and here there is an important modification of the budget proposal. For the future, the benefit to an employee from the private use of a company car will, for income tax purposes, be calculated as a percentage of the original market value of the car. The percentage will vary from 12½ per cent, where the car only is supplied, to 20 per cent, where all costs are met by the employer. Tapering relief will be available where the business mileage exceeds 10,000 miles. Where the business mileage exceeds 25,000 miles there will be no chargeable benefit. In the case of bona fide car pooling arrangements, there will be no charge to tax in respect of any incidental private use.

The proposal to grant income tax relief to elderly persons in respect of private tenancy rents is contained in section 5. Relief will commence in 1983-84 and will be based on the rent paid in 1982. The maximum amount of rent on which relief will be granted is £500 in the case of single or widowed persons, and £1,000 in the case of married couples jointly assessed. The special PRSI allowance of £312 for those who pay PRSI contributions at the higher rates is confirmed in section 6.

There is a concession in section 7 for those who are obliged to pay excess life assurance premiums because of ill-health. Section 8 deals with loans to employees at preferential interest rates. I gave notice in the budget statement of my intention to look at the tax provisions relating to preferential loans. If no changes were made, those with low interest loans would have a considerable extra advantage vis-á-vis persons borrowing at commercial interest rates. Besides, there would be an extra risk that low interest loans would be used as a means to circumvent the new interest provisions and the new benefit-in-kind provisions for motor cars. In future, the benefit from a preferential loan, that is, the difference between paying interest at the preferential rate and at the specified rate of 12 per cent, provided for in the Finance Act, 1979, will be charged to income tax. The borrower will be treated as having paid interest at the specified rate and will qualify for income tax relief on the interest, subject to the normal rules. Ordinary employees with preferential loans should be largely unaffected by these changes. For example, the new arrangements will not increase the income tax liability of a married man with a preferential housing loan of up to £40,000.

Section 9 exempts, with effect from 1980-81, military service pensions paid to veterans of the War of Independence, their widows or dependants.

Sections 10 and 11 bring the limits which deal with recovery of tax from defaulters into line with the new jurisdiction limits of the District and Circuit Courts, and section 12 extends for a further year the residence-related employment scheme which was first introduced in 1979.

Sections 13 to 16 deal with the measures announced in the budget relating to the taxation of farming profits. The rate of stock relief available to farmers in respect of increases in the value of their stock is being raised from 100 per cent to 110 per cent. The special arrangements for payment of income tax in two instalments by full-time farmers is being extended for another year. The credit for rates against tax on farming profits in 1982-83 will be one-half of the rates paid for 1981 and the remainder will be treated as a deductible expense in computing taxable profits. This follows from the reduction in rates. The tax allowance in respect of capital expenditure incurred on the construction of farm dwelling houses is being removed.

Section 17 provides for the abolition, from the date of its inception, of the agricultural resource tax, which was discontinued last year. The tax which has been collected in respect of the year 1980-81 will be refunded. Payments under the employment contribution scheme and grants towards employment in the service industries are exempted from tax under section 18, and section 19 gives effect to the budget proposal to provide tax relief for the cost of repairs to buildings which are of significant scientific, historical, architectural or aesthetic interest. This relief is conditional on reasonable access to the building being allowed to the public. Section 20 disallows business entertainment expenses incurred on or after 26 March as a deduction for income tax or corporation tax purposes.

The new arrangements for interest relief are set out in sections 21 to 23. Because of the serious technical difficulties to which they would give rise, it was not possible to implement in full the earlier budget proposals. Apart from transitional arrangements in respect of loans in existence before 26 March or 6 April, as appropriate, relief will in general be confined to interest on borrowings to purchase, improve or repair the taxpayer's sole or main residence. In the case of other loans, no relief will be allowed for interest on the amount by which the borrowings exceed the specified limits. These limits are £5,000 for married couples, £3,600 for widowed persons and £2,500 for single persons.

For overdrafts and credit card facilities, only the amount of the debt balance on 25 March will qualify for relief and then for the current tax year only. Special provisions will, however, apply where overdrafts or credit card facilities in existence on 25 March are replaced by loans. The existing overall limits on the total amount of interest qualifying for income tax relief will continue to apply. As an anti-avoidance measure the new arrangements are also being extended to companies in respect of their non-trading interest.

Section 24 continues stock relief for a further year. Under the following section, the special arrangements between the Revenue Commissioners and the building societies for determination of tax due on interest and dividends are, broadly, to remain unchanged for 1982-83. However, following the recent agreement on mortgage interest rates between the Minister for the Environment and the building societies, provision is also being made for a decrease in the overall tax payable in 1982-83 by societies which maintain certain interest rate levels on housing loans.

The basic rate of corporation tax is increased from 45 per cent to 50 per cent in section 26. There are consequential adjustments in the small companies' rate from 35 per cent to 40 per cent and in the low rate applicable to certain bodies from 30 per cent to 35 per cent. These increases will take effect as from 1 January 1982 onwards. This section also ensures that the 10 per cent rate for manufacturing companies will remain unchanged. In section 27, the due dates of payment for corporation tax are brought forward by three months and the period of grace during which interest is not charged on overdue corporation tax is reduced from two months to one month.

Arising from the scheme announced by the Minister for Agriculture on 31 March for aiding farmers in severe financial difficulty, there will be a tax credit against the corporation tax payable by the two main banks, Allied Irish Banks and Bank of Ireland. The other participants in the scheme — the ACC, Ulster Bank and Northern Bank — will receive a direct grant and provision has already been made for this in the budget. Section 28 now makes provision for the tax credit.

Chapters VI and VII of the Bill contain the sections relating to the various capital gains tax changes. Section 30 provides for the abolition of tapering relief and for the increases in the general rates of capital gains tax announced in the budget, including the special higher rates for short-term gains. These rates are applied to companies, for corporation tax purposes, in section 31. There has been loud criticism from some quarters about the increases in the rates of capital gains tax and especially the new high rates on short-term gains. The yield from capital taxation has been much too low and substantial increases are fully justified. In section 32, the position of small investors is recognised and there is a substantial concession for them. The present annual exemption limits for capital gains tax are being increased fourfold and the new thresholds will be £2,000 for an individual and £4,000 for a married couple.

Section 33 speeds up the collection of capital gains tax due on disposal by non-residents by bringing forward the tax assessment and payment dates. The procedures relating to the withholding of part of the proceeds on the sale of land and certain other assets are spelt out in section 34. The 30 per cent deduction which came into force on budget day in respect of disposals of development land was an interim measure and will not be continued after the enactment of the Finance Bill. Instead, the pre-budget criteria for clearance certificates will be restored and such certificates will be issued automatically to Irish residents. The section also provides for refunds in regard to the special deductions made since budget day where no liability to capital gains tax arises or to the extent that any deduction made exceeds the capital gains tax liability.

Sections 36 to 40 contain the provisions dealing with the taxation of disposals of development land. The provisions will apply to disposals made after 27 January, the date on which the measures were first announced. The rate of tax applicable to transactions which took place between that date and 26 March will be 45 per cent. The new 60 per cent and 50 per cent rates will apply as and from 26 March. Special provision is made for the disposal by an individual of small sites where the total consideration for all such disposals in any one year does not exceed £15,000. These disposals will be taxed under the general capital gains tax rules rather than under the special development land arrangements.

Indexation relief will apply only to the current use value of development land on the date from which the gain is computed. Roll-over relief will not apply in the case of disposals of development land but an exception is being made where the land in question is being disposed of by sports clubs. While these clubs will continue to be allowed to avail of roll-over relief, they will otherwise be subject to the arrangements for development land transactions. Only development land losses may be set off against development land gains. Losses on other disposals may be set off only against gains arising on non-development land disposals. This prevents the manipulation of losses to reduce the special tax liability now being imposed on disposals of development land. In addition, companies will be charged to capital gains tax rather than corporation tax on gains from development land disposals. If a disposal constitutes trading in development land by a builder or land-developer, the tax charge will, as at present, be to corporation tax or income tax and the new provisions relating to the special capital gains tax on development land will not apply to this situation.

Chapter VIII makes provision for the establishment of the employment incentive scheme. The sections in this chapter provide that a deduction of £10 a week will be allowable in computing profits chargeable to corporation tax for each week in which a new employee, taken on by a company between 1 July 1982 and 30 June 1983, is retained in employment. The base period for measuring the increase in employment will be the previous 12 months, that is from 1 July 1981 to 30 June 1982.

Sections 49 to 57 make provision for the scheme of income tax relief announced in the budget, for shares given to employees under profit-sharing arrangements. The sections provide that ordinary shares appropriated to an employee up to a maximum value of £1,000 in any one tax year will qualify for tax exemption if they are held for seven years. If the shares are disposed of within seven years the full tax charge may be reduced depending on the number of years they are held. This is an entirely new development and I hope that it will make a useful contribution to the evolution of a better industrial relations environment.

There was a strong commitment in the budget to deal more effectively with tax evasion and tax avoidance. In accordance with this commitment, the rate of interest charged in back duty settlements is being increased from 1.25 per cent to 2 per cent from 1 November next and section 58 provides for this. The monetary penalties for a range of offences are being increased in section 59, and section 60 is designed to strengthen existing measures which counter tax avoidance through dividend-stripping.

I announced in the budget that the proposal of the previous Government to impose a charge of £20 on each person leaving the State on a chartered aircraft would not be implemented. I announced that it was proposed instead to spread the tax over all fare-paying travellers by applying a charge of £2 per passenger on cross-Channel sea routes and £3 per passenger on all other sea and air routes. Section 62 of the Bill implements the proposal which will apply to tickets purchased in the State on or after 1 September 1982. The charge will, however, not apply to travellers going to Northern Ireland. As regards disabled persons, the charge will not apply to those who because of physical handicap are transported in wheelchairs or on stretchers, and invalids in general will be exempted when travelling to a recognised place of religious pilgrimage.

Section 63 confirms the budget increases on petrol, road diesel and auto-LPG. It provides that the increase will not be passed on to scheduled road passenger services and that excise duty will be repaid on oil contained in goods which are exported. The section also extends the present duty repayments scheme for excise duty on oil used by the horticultural sector, by providing on a temporary basis for repayment of the total amount of excise duty.

The rate of duty on motor vehicle parts and tyres is reduced by one-third from 1 October 1982 in section 64. The reduction should help to encourage a higher standard of maintenance of the existing motor vehicle stock, adding to its useful life and improving safety levels. I am happy to be able to propose the implementation of this constructive measure which is expected to cost about £5 million in a full year. At the request of the trade, I am reviewing the proposed arrangements for implementation. In section 65 the rate of duty on dance hall licences is reduced. The duty is reduced from £100 to £75 for the annual licence and from £15 to £10 for the monthly licence. This should be of benefit to community halls in particular. I would like to remind Deputies that for dances where drink is served after normal hours the budget in fact provided for a substantial increase in the duty on special exemption licences. This is provided for in section 70 below.

Section 66 increases penalties for betting duty offences. The penalty is increased from £500 to £800 for non-payment of duty or for breach of regulations and for unlicensed bookmaking. The penalty of £50 for obstructing an officer of customs and excise in the course of enforcing betting duty provisions is being increased to £500. Penalties for excise duty offences may be mitigated by the courts to one-quarter of the full penalty at present and, in section 67, this threshold is now being raised to one-half. These changes are being made to take account of the fall in the value of money and to maintain the impact of the penalty provisions.

Sections 68 and 69 provide for the changes in road tax announced in the budget and for increases in the fines for certain road tax and vehicle registration offences. In section 70 a number of orders made under the Imposition of Duties Act, 1957 are being confirmed in accordance with the required procedure including the orders made by the Government which came into effect on 13 March increasing various excise duties.

In the value-added tax provisions in the Bill there are no significant changes from the budget proposals. Section 72 provides for the application of the 18 per cent VAT rate to auctioneers' and estate agents' fees in respect of the purchase and sale of land and buildings. Section 73 is a technical provision relating to the application of VAT to barristers' fees. Section 74 confirms the budget increases in the VAT rates, as from 1 May, from 15 and 25 per cent to 18 and 30 per cent respectively, and maintains the 3 per cent effective rate on building and certain agricultural contracting services. It also extends, from 1 September 1982, this 3 per cent rate to auctioneers', estate agents' and solicitors' fees relating to the purchase and sale of agricultural land and farm accountancy and farm management services. Section 75 confirms the increase, from 1 May 1982, in the flat-rate addition for farmers from 1.5 to 1.8 per cent, maintaining the compensation to farmers for the increase in VAT rates on their business requirements.

Sections 76 and 77 provide for the imposition of VAT on imports. The Revenue Commissioners have already issued an advance public notice giving details of the new system which will take effect from 1 September. The essential feature is that it will apply to all goods whether for immediate use or for warehousing. Sales of goods in warehouse will also become liable to VAT in the normal way. While the new system will to some extent increase the working capital requirements of industry, its dampening effects on economic activity generally will be far less than that of the alternative of increased taxation. It will also help to curb losses from tax evasion, arrears and insolvencies and will remove the advantage imported goods are seen to have at present over domestically produced goods. These arguments apply to consumer and industrial goods alike which is why no exceptions to the scope of the new measure have been allowed. In line with this change, the ordinary domestic system of charging VAT will apply to sales by registered persons in Shannon to persons elsewhere in the State. The monetary penalties for VAT offences are increased in section 78 in line with similar increases for other taxes.

Sections 79 to 81 amend the various schedules to the VAT Act, 1972 to give effect to the decisions to apply VAT to fees of the legal and accountancy and related professions from 1 September, and the reductions in VAT on furniture and joinery, furnishings, floor coverings and books from 1 May. The reductions have been extended to include the application of VAT at the 18 per cent rate to a number of minor items with effect from 1 May.

Provision is made in section 82 for the deferment until next January of the increase in the 15 per cent VAT rate in respect of tourist services to non-residents in accordance with fixed price contracts entered into before 1 January 1982. This concession is expected to cost nearly £1 million and should be of considerable benefit to those sections of the tourist industry with long-term commitments to overseas tour operators.

I would now like to turn briefly to the sections in the Bill dealing with stamp duties. Section 83 provides for the imposition of the levy of £20 million on the banking sector. The base for the levy will be, as last year, the current and deposit accounts of each bank, subject to certain adjustments. The duty will be calculated by reference to the average level of accounts at stated dates in September, October and November 1981. The rates of duty will be 0.2 per cent on the first £100 million of taxable resources and 0.35 per cent of the remainder. A levy of 1 per cent on certain insurance transactions is introduced in section 84. The base for the levy will be gross direct premium income of insurance companies from within the State with certain specified exemptions. There will be no levy in respect of insurance business written abroad as this would affect competitiveness in foreign markets.

Stamp duty on gifts of land to young trained farmers is being removed for a two-year period under section 85. In order to avail of this concession, which will apply from the date of enactment of the Finance Bill, a farmer must be under 35 when the deed of transfer is executed and be in possession of an appropriate training qualification. It is hoped that the concession will go some way towards ensuring that land will pass more quickly into the hand of those who are best equipped to work it with maximum efficiency and skill.

In section 86 provision is made for various increases in stamp duties as well as for the introduction of a fixed duty of £1 for all new insurance policies other than policies of life insurance. Transactions between close relatives, which are at present liable to a maximum stamp duty of 1 per cent, will in future be liable at half the normal rates which range from ½ per cent to 6 per cent. These changes were announced in the budget. The following two sections provide for the continuation of two stamp duty measures which were implemented by Government orders in 1981.

Part V of the Bill — that is sections 90 to 94 — is concerned with capital acquisitions tax. There is a provision that the upper limit on the special agricultural relief for farmer beneficiaries will be increased by £50,000 to £200,000 in regard to gifts or inheritances taken on or after 1 April 1982. Gifts and inheritances received by a beneficiary from different sources on or after 2 June 1982, the date of publication of the Finance Bill, will be aggregated to determine a beneficiary's capital acquisitions tax liability on a particular benefit. This changes the previous arrangements whereby only gifts and inheritances acquired from the same disponer were added together. From now on all gifts and inheritances taken by a beneficiary from all disponers of the same class will be added together for tax purposes but there will be no aggregation of benefits across the four classes in the tax.

There are a few matters which do not arise in the text of the Bill but on which I would like to make some comment. In the budget it was indicated that steps would be taken to ensure that certain earnings paid by way of fees or commissions would be subject to taxation. This is a complex issue because of the wide variety of payment methods. It is, however, under continuing examination and I hope to be able to introduce legislation at a later date to close any loopholes that are used for tax evasion.

Deputies will recall that during the course of my Financial Statement of 25 March last I indicated the Government's intention to introduce taxation on derelict sites and on certain office developments with a view to ameliorating dereliction in urban areas. The Bill before the House does not provide for these taxes.

The main purpose of the proposed taxes is to make a positive contribution to eliminating the environmental blight of urban areas — particularly the inner city areas — by making it less profitable to hoard unsightly areas in anticipation of development and by extracting a levy on completed office developments. The principal public authority agents of urban renewal are, of course, the local authorities and I would, therefore, see whatever revenues might arise from these taxes accruing to the local authorities. The Minister for the Environment, who of course has responsibility in the area of urban renewal and also for the construction industry generally, is at present examining the possibility of developing these taxes on the lines of local authority taxes.

In line with the increase in the basic rate of corporation tax from 45 to 50 per cent, the normal tax credit will be changed from 30/70 ths to 35/65 ths in relation to distributions made on or after 6 April, 1983. I will provide for this in next year's Finance Bill.

I also have under consideration the question of taxation of motor car allowances. In some instances these allowances are extremely generous by any standards. In view of the increase in the benefit-in-kind provision where an employee has the use of a company car, it is only proper that we should consider the benefit where an employee uses his own car for business.

In a few areas the Bill contains significant modifications of proposals made in the budget. These modifications are being introduced either because of technical problems, as in the case of the interest proposals, or because on further examination it became clear that the original proposals were imposing too severe an extra burden on some taxpayers. To put these changes in proper perspective, I should point out that their overall effect on revenue this year will amount to a reduction of approximately £2½ million.

I have outlined for the House in, I hope, reasonable detail the main features of this Bill. Because of the various important changes being made in our tax arrangements, the Bill is quite complex. As I said at the outset, I see it as a significant step forward towards a fairer tax system. I recommend the Bill to the House.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:—

"Dáil Éireann declines to give the Bill a second reading on the grounds of social justice and economic responsibility, and in particular because—

(a) in departing significantly from the terms of the Budget as outlined in the Financial Statement by the Minister for Finance in March, 1982, it confers concessions solely on the relatively well off, while giving no equivalent concessions to the low-paid as was proposed in the Family Income Supplement provisions of the Budget presented to the House in January, 1982,

(b) in granting concessions in regard to PRSI, it does so in such a way as to give maximum benefit to the well-paid, and little or no benefit to the low-paid.

(c) it aggravates national economic difficulties by measures, in regard to payments in advance of Value-Added Tax and Corporation Tax, which will cause losses of jobs in many vulnerable businesses, and will worsen the national budgetary situation for 1983 by using up revenue that would otherwise be available in that year, and

(d) it does not provide for any long-term reform of the PAYE system as was contained in the proposal for the introduction of a system of tax credits in the January Budget, while it fails to seek other sources of revenue by abandoning any proposal to reduce tax avoidance through discretionary trusts."

I should like to open my remarks by referring to the particular items in the amendment, which I believe together constitute a very persuasive case as to why the House should not pass this Finance Bill. First, I think there have been few Finance Bills which have departed as significantly as this one does from the budgetary statement of the Minister introduced such a short time ago. I do not want to give the impression that I believe that Ministers for Finance should not make changes in the Finance Bill from the provisions of the budget. It is reasonable that they should be free to do so, but if they make changes in so many respects after such a short time of discussions, it is inadequate. It is also inadequate that the Minister should fail to give the long-term cost of the changes he is making.

He has told us that the overall effect on revenue of these changes will be £2.5 million this year. As he well knows, the bulk of the revenue to be derived from the original budget proposals would not have accrued in this year. In respect of some of the changes proposed there would not have been any revenue this year because those concerned are taxed on their previous year's income and the changes therefore in respect of this year's income would not yield any revenue until next year. Therefore, the Minister's figure of extra cost to the Exchequer of £2.5 million, though strictly correct, is an inadequate statement of the true position. I invite him, when he is replying, to let the House know the cost of these changes in 1983, 1984 and 1985. It is only then we will get a true picture of the effects of these changes.

In many respects, the changes that have been made are merely putting right mistakes made by the Minister in the March budget. They are mistakes which should not have been made in the first place. The Minister clearly went too far in some of his March proposals. He did not have very long to prepare his budget but he had sufficient time to avoid making mistakes of this magnitude, to avoid having had to come back to the House to mend his hand. If he had not made the mistakes he might have been able to make other revenue provisions which he has not now the opportunity to make.

Furthermore, I believe the change in strategy is one-sided, because all the concessions made will benefit people who are relatively well off. I am not suggesting that people who enjoy company cars are all rich people by any means: many of them may have serious financial burdens. However, generally speaking, such people are not to be found among the ranks of the low paid — there are few low paid workers with company cars, as there are few low paid workers who have the opportunity to enjoy capital gains or to incur significant debt upon which interest payment can be charged against their income tax.

Though it is fair to say that changes should be made in order to promote efficiency and incentive in our tax system so that even people at relatively good levels of income would have an incentive to earn and to produce more, if we are setting about altering the March budget now I do not think we should alter it solely for one section of the people. There is another section whose interests are ignored completely in this Bill and in the changes made in PRSI. They are the low paid at work. The Minister showed considerable solicitude for those who are not at work when he decided to do away with the proposed tax on short-term social welfare benefits. That proposed tax would have removed from our tax and social welfare systems the position that exists at the moment through which many people who are low paid at work would be better off if they stopped working and claimed either disability or unemployment benefit. Surely that must rate as one of the craziest situations one could allow to exist in our tax and social welfare systems, yet in his budget the Minister refused to adopt the first measure that had been proposed in recent times by a Government in substantive form to tackle this problem head on. He abandoned it.

Not only did he abandon that, but when making concessions in regard to the March budget he concentrated them away from those who are low paid at work for the benefit of those who are relatively better off at work. In making concessions in relation to PRSI he did so by way of a tax allowance. As everyone in the House knows, a tax allowance is inherently more beneficial to persons on higher incomes than those on low incomes. If persons pay tax on most of their incomes at 60p in the £, a tax allowance is worth 60p in the £ to them. Conversely, if a person is not paying any income tax on any of his income because he has a low income and a large number of dependants, a tax allowance which increases his tax free allowance further is not worth a penny in the £ to such a person. Likewise, if people are moderately well off and are paying their marginal tax at 35p in the £, a tax allowance on PRSI is only worth 35p in the £ to them.

So clearly the Minister's use of the £45 million which he says is available but which he has not been able to produce yet, gives maximum benefit to the well paid and, as I state in my amendment, is of little or no benefit to the low paid. If the Minister had £45 million available for concessions in this area — until he shows us how he is going to raise it one must question whether it is available — he should have done so by exempting low income people up to a certain level of income entirely from PRSI so that the low paid at work would get direct benefit, those people who find it hard in our present tax system to make up their minds to continue to go to work at all because they would be almost better off staying at home and claiming benefit. They are the people who should have got the benefit of the £45 million instead of those who are better off.

The Minister showed a lamentable lack of imagination and of a sense of reality of what is happening in the real economy in the way he chose to give PRSI relief. He should have helped the low paid. Instead, he helped those who are relatively better off and who have less need of the help of the £45 million. As I said earlier, we do not know where the £45 million will come from. We should be told where it will come from. It is not acceptable that the House is asked to adopt this Bill half way through 1982 in the knowledge that a further £45 million must be found somewhere before the end of December.

We are asked to approve the provisions of this Bill as if it was the last word as far as taxation is concerned. Of course it is not the last word. Before the ink of the President's signature on this Bill is dry its provisions may be altered radically by a further supplementary budget. How can we consider maturely the impact of particular provisions in this Bill if we do not know whether they will be totally altered within a couple of weeks by further taxation amounting to £45 million which must be raised? We have been asked to consider the Bill in an unsatisfactory manner. In failing to tell the House and the country how he proposes to raise this money, the Minister is doing no service either to budgetary procedures here, public understanding of taxation and the necessity for it or his own reputation as a Minister.

This Bill must be rejected on the grounds that it aggravates national economic difficulties by requiring that payments of VAT and corporation profits tax, which in the normal course would fall to be paid in the first three months of 1983, will artificially and on a once-off basis be brought forward to 1982. This means two things: by taking the money out of next year the real budgetary situation will be that much worse and also business will have to borrow the money to carry this additional burden. Business will borrow the money instead of the Government. I ask the Minister and the House to consider carefully, as perhaps his colleague Deputy O'Donoghue did not when he made this proposal, the state of business at present. One does not have to search very far to find in every day's paper news of business collapsing and jobs being lost because they are already too heavily in debt and cannot meet interest payments. Yet the Minister asks them to borrow still more to give money to him to finance artificial transactions because he will not tackle public spending and other problems in our finances. The Minister is asking business, already on its knees, to carry the can for him. His whole budgetary strategy for this year is based on the assumption that they will be able to come up with the money.

In his speech the Minister said he accepted that by the beginning of September we would already have a budget deficit well in excess of the deficit for the entire year and the budget deficit we will have by the end of this month will be 100 per cent of our planned deficit for the entire year. Then he reassured us by telling us not to worry, that he would get the money in during the last three months of the year in advance corporation tax payments and VAT tax payments. If the businesses cannot find the money, the Minister's budgetary strategy falls flat on its face. The whole edifice of the budgetary strategy is built on the assumption that business can borrow hundreds of millions of pounds extra from the banks to pay to the Minister. Has there ever been a time when one could be less confident of the ability of Irish companies to come up with money on that scale to save the Government's financial targets? I do not believe there has been a time, possibly with the exception of the thirties, when business was in greater difficulty than it is at present.

Not only does this proposal threaten the jobs of hundreds of workers who may be laid off because of financial difficulties within businesses but it means the Government's strategy could fall on its face. We are all aware of the inability of companies to meet their tax liabilities at present. Practically every Deputy will have experience of negotiating with the Revenue Commissioners on behalf of companies in their constituencies in an effort to get them to defer interest charges or to phase payments of already due tax over longer periods. How many other companies are there who do not approach us but who have this kind of problem? If business cannot come up with the money at the end of the year, the budgetary strategy will collapse.

As a result of this artificial transaction of bringing forward revenue from next year to this year, the budget deficit for 1983 will be in the region of £1,100 million rather than the £800 million it would have been if we had gone ahead with the January budget. This is a serious gap and we will not be able to escape making a serious effort to bridge it nor will we be allowed to by our partners in the EEC or those who lend money to us.

The Bill does not provide any long-term reform of the PAYE system as contained in the tax credit proposals of the Jamuary budget. The Minister said that he has been able, by restricting the 35p band and other changes, to achieve an incidence of taxation which is not dissimilar to that inherent in tax credit proposals contained in the January budget. In abandoning the system of tax credits on what he described as "administrative grounds", the Minister has abandoned an opportunity to change the whole structure of the system to an inherently fairer basis because tax credits are of the same benefit to everyone. If one is paying £1,000 in tax and gets a tax credit of £500 it is worth £500. If one is paying £1 million in tax and gets a tax credit of £500 it is worth £500. However, with the allowance system if one is paying 60p in the pound because one is on a high income it is worth 60p and if one pays 30p because one is on a low income it is worth 30p. However, the Minister abandoned the opportunity to go ahead with tax credits and adhered to the old allowance system with all its inequalities. The only argument he has made in favour of this is administrative difficulties. I have no patience with Ministers who plead administrative difficulties. Ministers are there to get things done and not to use their officials as an excuse for their own decisions. If the Minister decided to abandon tax credits because he does not like them, he should say so and not hide behind the skirts of officials by saying that there are administrative difficulties. That is not an adequate excuse and should not be used. The Minister made a similar plea in regard to changes in interest payments for tax purposes. He may be right in the changes he is making but he should not use his sole argument in favour of them certain unspecified technical difficulties. There are no technical difficulties if one sets about trying to get around them. Any difficulties can be overcome if there is a will to do so. In this instance clearly there was not such a will. Perhaps the Minister was right not to want to make the changes but he should come out and defend them on the basis of policy, not on technical or administrative difficulties. Whatever they may be he should not be afraid to defend his policies in this House and hide behind administrative and technical problems.

As far as the whole of this Bill is concerned, as far as recent and perhaps even future Finance Bills and budgets are concerned, the critical problem is the fact that the public sector of our economy is costing too much money and somebody has to pay for it. To some extent one can get foreign banks to pay for it but they must be repaid and they will not continue to pay for ever. We have been unable in this House to come to grips with this phenomenon. Perhaps I can illustrate the extend to which our public sector has grown by citing a few figures. Since 1977, that fateful year, public sector numbers have gone up by 13 per cent while the number of people employed in manufacturing, those who must bear the burden of the cost of the pay bill of people in the public sector, has gone up a mere 4 per cent, less than one-third as fast. Similarly between the years 1977 and 1978 remuneration has not grown in an even pattern as between the public and other sectors of our economy. Between the years 1977 and 1980 the latest dates for which I have figures available to me, public sector incomes went up by 27 per cent, farm incomes fell by 37 per cent and the incomes of people in manufacturing industries rose by 9.4 per cent. There is clearly a large divergence in welfare between one sector of our economy and others. It is worth recording that public spending, spending by the Government, represents two-thirds of all spending in Ireland. Yet, in the economy which is the most successful in the world, with an inflation rate at around 4 per cent and unemployment practically at zero, namely Japan, public spending represents 24 per cent only of all their spending, as against 60 per cent here. There is clearly an imbalance in our economy. It is no wonder that PRSI workers in the non-State sector of our economy feel aggrieved at the burden they are having to bear. They are being asked to bear an unduly heavy burden when one bears these statistics in mind.

Where does the fault lie? It does not lie with the people employed in the public sector themselves because it is not their responsibility to manage public sector numbers. Responsibility for the management of public sector numbers, for keeping public expenditure under control rests in one place only, in this House. Collectively we have failed to manage that sector of our economy for which we are responsible. We can preach sermons to industry and tell them they should be more efficient. We can preach sermons to people in the educational system and tell them they should be more efficient but, until we put our own house in order, until we manage that part of our economy for which we in this House are responsible, we have no right to preach sermons to anybody.

I believe that the manner in which this House sanctions millions upon millions of pounds in public spending, in the discussion of Estimates now taking place, is nothing short of disgraceful. I would remind the House that the Estimates we shall be considering on Friday next are for moneys more than half of which has already been spent, the rest of which is already totally committed and none of which can be changed. Therefore the debate we shall have here on Friday about public spending will be so much hot air because we cannot change a line or a penny of those Estimates for the reason I have given. What business, what local authority would scrutinise the spending for which they were responsible in such a foolish manner as we do in this House in our approach to the control of public spending.

If we are to reduce taxation and its unduly heavy burden on people, we must take our responsibilities in this House for the management of public spending much more seriously than we do at present. We must ensure that every item of spending for any year is approved and examined in detail in advance in this House before a penny of it is spent. That is the way that any business, any local authority, would carry out their responsibilities and that is the way we must do it. It was in order to provide for that to be done that the Coalition Government introduced a paper entitled “A Better Way to Plan the Nation's Finances”. I believe one cannot discuss a Finance Bill without discussing the issues raised in that paper. One cannot hope to bring about a lower level of taxation without taking speedy decisions on the issues raised in that paper.

However, having said some hard things about the Minister, his budget and Finance Bill, I should like to say some things which are less hard. I welcome the fact that he has gone ahead with many of the proposals contained in the January budget, proposals of a constructive nature in which I had a deep personal interest and which, in many cases, were contained in the programme of my party and of the Government of which I was then a member. I refer in particular to the reduction in the duty on motor vehicle parts which will encourage the development of a motor repairs industry in this country, thereby encouraging people to keep their cars longer rather than buying new imported ones. I refer to the tax concession for historic buildings which will encourage people to continue to live in them and not allow them become derelict. I refer to the provision of a tax incentive for profit-sharing which, in my view, will redress a very serious problem in Irish industrial relations in which many workers feel they have no stake in the firm in which they are employed. This will give a direct, though not sufficiently generous, incentive to involving those people directly and financially in their businesses as shareholders. I welcome also the provision in the Finance Bill for a tax incentive to firms by way of reduced corporation profits tax to increase the number they employ.

I welcome also the additional stock relief contained in the budget for farmers to encourage them to increase the numbers of cattle and perhaps other stock on the land. We all know that one of the main reasons for our very large balance of payments problem last year and, to some extent this year, has been the dramatic decline in stock numbers on the land. This has caused serious problems for the whole of our economy. That measure — contained in my January Budget and brought forward into this Finance Bill by the present Minister — will give farmers in the tax net a very generous incentive to increase the numbers of stock they carry on their land and bring us nearer a situation in which at least we are utilising our land with maximum efficiency rather than having the present under-utilisation all over the country in practically all types of farming.

All of the measures I have mentioned and indeed some others were contained in my January budget and had I had the opportunity to do so would have provided for them in the Finance Bill I would have introduced. I am glad that the Minister has gone ahead with these proposals. They are proposals that stand on their own merits and ones that any sensible Minister for Finance would wish to introduce. I should not let this occasion pass without expressing my appreciation to the Minister for his not having adopted a partisan attitude in this regard, for not having rejected the proposals because they originated with another party. I will be saying more about the measures later in my contribution.

Section 5 provides that rent paid by a person aged 65 and upwards can be used by him as an expense against tax. A similar proposal was contained in the January budget and it was designed to make a start with a provision for allowing rent more generally to be set off against tax and thereby to remedy the inequity that exists in the system in the sense that people borrowing money to buy houses which they will own can set off against tax the interest on such borrowings whereas if, instead of buying a house they decide to rent, there is no such tax concession. We must recognise that in many cases the renting arrangement is the more flexible. It gives greater opportunity for altering the size of accommodation in line with demand — family size and so on. In this Bill we are going a little way towards remedying this inequity.

However, what concerns me somewhat in regard to section 5 is that the people concerned can claim only if they are keeping receipts in respect of all rent paid this year. What is provided here is that they must have been keeping receipts from 1 January 1982, but that was even before the similar proposal was announced in the January budget let alone brought into law by the passing of this Bill, if it is ever passed. This stipulation is not giving the people concerned a reasonable opportunity to claim the relief. Therefore, the Minister would be performing a useful exercise by asking the Minister for Justice to make available for the purpose of advertising this scheme some of the money that Minister is using currently for advertising. Those people who are over 65 and who are paying rent should be made aware of this change in regard to tax so that they will keep receipts and will be in a position to get relief in terms of tax in the year 1983-84. Because of lack of publicity this scheme will not work. Then at some future stage we will have some Minister telling us that there was no response to the scheme. We cannot get a response to something that the people who would be involved in it are not made aware of. This is the case particularly in respect of a scheme that is directed at older people, people who are not in the mainstream of discussions about tax changes and who are not as likely as others to be aware of their rights. In these circumstances I ask the Minister to consider as a matter of urgency arranging for some publicity in regard to this proposal and also making some arrangement whereby allowance will be made for the fact that rent receipts are unlikely to be available for the first half of this year.

Regarding section 32, I welcome the increase to £2,000 in the amount of capital gains which an individual will be able to make in a given year without attracting capital gains tax. We need to encourage individuals who have some money saved to put that money into risky enterprise, the type that could make either big sums of money or big losses instead of putting the money into gilt edged investment or to investment in property. We need to encourage an active stock market, a situation in which the small saver becomes involved directly in the stock market in the way that the small saver was involved 20, 30 or 40 years ago. Unfortunately the stock market today is dominated by the large institutions who are involved in practically all the big transactions with hardly any participation from the small saver. We must encourage the small saver to put his money into productive investment instead of speculating in property, of building an extension that he does not need or of buying a second home that he does not need either. The arrangement proposed in section 32 will help in this direction.

Section 37 refers to the application of the new development land tax to small transactions. In regard to this tax, which was contained in broad outline in the January budget, I envisaged that a farmer selling a site or two in order to overcome financial difficulties would not find that in order to get the bank manager off his back he would be treated for tax purposes as if he were a property developer. Many farmers find themselves now in financial difficulties and if they sell a small number of sites they will not be in a position to enjoy the money because it will be going straight to the bank in order to put the farmer back into a lineball position. Yet, the Minister is only exempting transactions from tax up to a limit of £15,000. This figure is too low and I should be interested in hearing of the basis on which it was calculated. It may be calculated in such a way as to negative my criticism but I doubt if that is the case. I would consider a figure of £30,000 or at least £25,000 to be more appropriate. However, that is something that we shall have the opportunity of discussing during Committee Stage. At this stage I am only giving the Minister notice of my views on the matter.

I turn now to Chapter VIII, which concerns corporation tax. What is involved here is the relief in respect of increases in employment to which I referred earlier and in respect of which there was provision also in the budget I introduced. If that budget had been passed I would have been concerned in drafting the consequential Finance Bill that the provision in respect of this relief might be so drafted as to be insufficiently attractive to make it work. There have been attempts in the past — I think there was such an attempt in the 1976 budget — to introduce something along those lines but because the conditions for applicability were so restrictively drafted by the careful men and women concerned in the Department and in the Revenue Commissioners there were perhaps more jobs involved in drafting the Bill than were created by its provisions. That is a danger one must guard against. As political head of the Department it is particularly the responsibility of the Minister to ensure that that does not happen on this occasion.

At this point I am not in a position to draw the Minister's attention to certain provisions in this section, provisions which could be deemed to be unduly restrictive but I will be applying my mind to those between now and Committee Stage and I hope the Minister will be doing the same.

There is an opportunity in this regard for encouraging firms to create more jobs but we must not be too careful as to how we draft the relevant legislation. Would the Minister not consider, for example, allowing a deduction of £20 per week per additional employee rather than £10? A sum of £10 a week is not a lot of money nowadays in terms of the number of people employed. When we consider the many problems that face an employer who takes on an additional worker, the fact that he has not only to make very substantial charges in terms of PAYE and PRSI but also, because of the additional rights given to the worker under labour legislation, once he has taken the particular worker on we realise he will find it almost impossible to get rid of him or her without going through very difficult procedures. Many employers are, therefore, not inclined to take on an additional person but rather to employ a machine instead to get a particular task done. To some extent our excess solicitude to protect workers from the depredations of the bosses has led to a situation where there are fewer workers employed and the bosses are getting machines to do the job instead of people. I am not sure that £10 a week deduction on corporation profits tax, if the firm happen to be making corporation profits, will be enough to tip the balance. This tax credit is no use if the firm are not making a profit. I ask the Minister to consider increasing this credit to a larger sum although I realise it will still not be of benefit to firms who are not making a profit and we must look to some other way of tackling that problem.

I would now like to refer to Chapter 9 of the Bill which concerns profit sharing. This proposal was also contained in the January budget. I am worried about one angle of this proposal and I ask the Minister to look at this between now and Committee stage. This may be used solely to benefit a few directors of companies or people at the very top level who will be encouraged to get a share in the company as a way of getting round having to pay 60p in the £ tax and that the profit sharing scheme will not be used for the broad mass of workers. It is better not to have a profit sharing scheme which does not involve all the workers in a given industry because it only creates further invidious comparisons between one category of worker and another, the worker at the top who is involved in a profit sharing scheme and the worker at the bottom who is not. If this scheme is to be used simply as a means for paying a few top executives more money without involving the mass of workers in the firm, it will not achieve the social objectives it is designed to achieve. I would like to see the Minister looking at this to see if he can ensure that its benefits extend to all employees.

Will the Minister, if he has not already done so, find out how this scheme worked in the United Kingdom and compare the section which refers to this in this Finance Bill with the section in the UK Bill? I understand that this system has operated in the UK but that it has not been a riproaring success. The Minister should try to find out why and if there are lessons that can be learned from the lack of success of this scheme in the UK he should apply them in this Bill in appropriate amendments.

Will the Minister look at the restriction referred to in the last paragraph of this section in the explanatory memorandum dealing with this matter where it is indicated that this profit sharing scheme will only be available where the ordinary shares of a company are quoted on a recognised stock exchange? As the Minister is no doubt aware, the majority of Irish industry is carried on by private companies whose shares are never quoted on the stock exchange. I believe if this scheme is restricted to firms quoted on the stock exchange it will only be of benefit to a relatively small number of large firms and their employees. It would be better if the provision could be extended to all companies, whether quoted or not. I realise, however, that where a company are not quoted on the stock exchange it is very difficult to put a value on the shares. There is no market value for the shares because they are not marketed. That is a problem which should be overcome; it is not a problem which should overcome us. The Minister should see if he can find ways to extend the provision to the non-quoted companies as well as the quoted companies.

There are a few small things I would like to refer to in regard to the exemption of VAT. The Minister will probably tell me that I should have thought of this when I introduced this concession. There is an industry in my constituency which makes lampshades. I understand that lampshades are not included as furnishings for the purpose of this reduction in VAT. While lampshades are not absolutely essential — you can look the light straight in the eye — they have some value. They are really analogous to the furnishings which are included and it might be worth the Minister's while including them. If he can include coffins as furniture he can probable include lampshades as well. I note that is the one concession he made in regard to this.

You cannot do without a coffin.

A coffin is absolutely essential, but it is another question of whether it is analogous to furniture. I know the Minister received representations, the same as I did, from coffin makers since the Bill was introduced, who felt they were being unfairly treated. I am not cavilling at the Minister's concession, but as he is in such a generous mood and has been generous to the darker side of things in exempting coffins he might look to the lighter side and exempt lampshades as well.

I referred to the levy on banks and the levy on insurance companies. Although these levies were introduced by both Governments they are a very crude and inefficient way of raising revenue, as the Fianna Fáil election programme rightly pointed out. "These levies will ultimately be borne by households." Those are the well-chosen words used in the Fianna Fáil programme. They are not borne by banks or by insurance companies. They will ultimately be passed on in higher bank charges and higher insurance premiums to the long beleagured consumers. We should not fool ourselves that we are taxing the fat cats in the insurance companies or the fat cats in the banks. We are just taxing people who use banks and people who use insurance companies. It may be a useful way of geting money in the short term — and I am not denying I resorted to that method myself — but as the Minister is resorting to it in an even greater extent than I did. In the end it is the consumer who pays. Inherently levies are not a fair system of taxing any activity or any group of people. I believe we must try to find a fairer system of taxing banks and taxing insurance companies if we feel they are paying insufficient tax at the moment and not resort to levies.

I know the Minister will use the argument that these are matters which are being considered by the very useful Commission of Income Taxation which enables us all to dodge or political responsibilities as long as it continues to sit. I am sure the Minister was disappointed to learn that this report is soon to appear, because he will no longer be able to use it as an excuse when not taking decisions. For the time being there is something to be said for waiting for their deliberations on how we should tax insurance companies and banks. As soon as those deliberations are laid before us let us take decisions to tax these people in an appropriate way, if we feel they are not paying enough tax, but let us not resort to levies which in the end are just borne by the consumer.

I want to refer now to section 85, which is concerned with stamp duty exemption for two years on transfers of land to young, trained farmers. This provision was contained in my January budget and I am glad the Minister has gone ahead with it. Two things must be said about it and in this I may be speaking against the sense of some other Members who may contribute. First, it is important that the concession be restricted to two years. If the impression is created that the concession will continue indefinitely people will not bother to transfer land to the younger farmers. There are far too many older farmers who, for some reason, possibly a sense of insecurity that is understandable, hang on to land long after they have passed the age when they are able to use it to the best advantage and do not pass it on to younger members of the family who could work the land. If we say that indefinitely there will be no stamp duty on land transfers to younger farmers the attitude will be to put off the transfers for a few years. On the other hand, if we say, as is set out in the Bill, that only in respect of transfers in the next two years will the stamp duty holiday apply, that will be an incentive to people to transfer land to younger members of the family. I am confident the Minister will hold the line on this issue.

It is important that young trained farmers should avail of this facility, not simply people who happen to be young and who are related to a farmer. The fact that a person is young does not necessarily mean that he or she will farm more efficiently. Farming is like any other business, it is something that one has to learn. It is also something that one can learn about formally. One cannot learn all aspects of farming simply by practical experience. One can and should learn otherwise. There may be pressure on the Minister to dispense with the requirement that such people do a 100-hour course before they can avail of this concession or have some other form of education in agriculture.

The argument may be made to the Minister that there are not sufficient places available in such courses to enable all those who wish to avail of the concession to do so in time to get the transaction through within two years. If that is the situation — I do not know because I have no way of knowing what demand there may be — the Minister should do one of two things, or perhaps both. He should arrange with the Minister for Agriculture to increase the number of 100-hour courses in the next year or so so that people can undertake such courses before they get the land, while they are getting it or even, in some exceptional cases, after they get the land or, alternatively, he should extend the period within which training is available. If it is not possible to increase the number of places in the course, arrangements should be made to extend the period during which the course may be done so that people might be able to do the course even after the transaction is completed. Of course, if they fail to do the course the duty should fall to be fully payable. It is important that the principle of restricting the period of the concession and the principle that it be available to people who undertake a course of training in agriculture be adhered to and I hope the Minister will do this.

Those are the main points I wish to make on the Bill. It is customary at the end of a speech such as this to wind up by saying it all over again but I will save the Chair and the hundreds of listeners here the agony of listening to me repeating what I have said.

Each year the Finance Bill should be, and for some years it was, central to progressive management of our nation's finances. It should be the pivot on which economic and social progress should advance and it is on that basis that I approach this Bill. I propose to make three broad comments on it.

First, there is the effect that this Bill will have and which Finance Bills in the past three or four years have had on the economic and social climate. Secondly, I should like to outline some proposed taxation reforms as have been advocated and to point out some of their deficiencies. Thirdly, I should like to indicate some taxation reforms that could be introduced in the general national interest.

We have to understand the climate in which this Bill has been introduced. We have a hung Dáil. We have had a period of considerable political instability in the past 18 months. We have a Government who in relation to this Bill are wide open to political ambush in the lobbies in a few weeks' time and we could have a general election as a result of this Bill. We have a Taoiseach whose leadership is once again questioned, but that is not the issue today.

This Bill has been introduced at a time when unemployment is at a peace-time record, when inflation here is still in the top three of the European Community. We have a Finance Bill at a time when the nation's finances are in chaos and this is a cause for real alarm. Admittedly, there has been some recovery in agriculture but tourism is considerably in decline. Unless we get things right in the next 12 months, despite any protestations from the Minister for Finance there will be a forced devaluation of the IR£ unless present policies are changed.

There is also the question of public reaction to the Finance Bill, to taxation and to public spending. Irish society is in a deep crisis. There is tremendous public agitation about crime and vandalism which is on the increase. However, the only way measures are being taken to combat crime is through a Finance Bill, through taxation measures and the provision of scarce money. This is apart from the great need to change public opinion and education.

We have a very serious housing crisis of increasing dimensions now because young people are not emigrating and want to live in their two- or three-bedroom dwellings. A Finance Bill is the kind of measure by which the housing construction industry is encouraged to develop and by which scarce resources are allocated into that industry, and the rest of the community, those of us who are fortunate enough to have houses, assist those who have not. A Finance Bill can reorient public finances in that direction. Finance Bills manifestly have failed to do this in recent years. Our major suburbs in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway are starved of amenities. A Finance Bill, if it was a real Finance Bill in terms of dealing with land speculation and measures to get money deliberately and consciously allocated into the suburbs of our communities to build up amenities for our young people, could provide this kind of money for these areas as could the budget. Manifestly that has not happened either.

Finally, in terms of the social crisis to which I wish to refer, we have a transport crisis and a communications crisis. Our urban areas are choked and our cities are congested. Economic and social life are stifled by our failure to use the taxation system to influence the question of car ownership and car parking by way of taxation of cars in urban areas — even in respect of parking — to end the chaos and nightmare which exist in transport.

These are some of the issues which a Finance Bill could influence. A Finance Bill could influence even, for example, the question of the quality of education in terms of taxation reliefs. A Finance Bill can have a profound impact on the achievement and maintenance of full employment. A good Finance Bill can bring about equality of opportunity at many levels. A Finance Bill of the inspirational type which at this stage one might even perceive, can achieve a genuine overall increase in living standards especially of those on low income, particularly if the Bill has a fair distribution of income and wealth within it. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that, provided there are parallel structural reforms in society, a Finance Bill can go a good way towards having a real impact on poverty. Therefore, it can have a profound effect on and can implement a great many policies for the betterment of our people.

Having made these criticisms of what Finance Bills have not done in the past decade and what they could do, I am not at all a prophet of despair or gloom in that regard. Some politicians — not very many — in this country genuinely hold the view that it is possible to convince the Irish people through a Finance Bill that we have a great country to live and work in and in which to rear our children and develop our nation. Provided we take measures relating to taxation which are vital for the economic and social development of our country, I hold that belief. We have very many distinct advantages in agriculture and in our mixed economy which we could develop further in our trading capacity and in our potential for manufacturing employment. That potential undoubtedly is there and has grown throughout the sixties and the early seventies, but in the past five, six, seven or eight years through successive Finance Bills we have fritted away an enormous accumulation of capacity which we would have had and we are now haemorrhaging. It has been a haemorrhage in terms of potential. What is missing is basically honest, competent, courageous, almost not-giving-a-damn-about-the-electoral-consequences type of political management of the economy. The only trouble about that is that one finishes up perpetually in Opposition, but at least one is honest.

At the moment our country is paralysed in terms of taxation management. It has gone hither and thither with this palliative and that palliative, this reform and that reform, this stroke and that counterstroke from about 1975 onwards. We have got nowhere except to develop schizophrenia within our public sector, because any public servant trying to divine what the politicians are up to and having to reflect it each year in the Finance Bill can become only one thing, a total schizophrenic.

Not a pathological killer.

If he did not have that capacity to become one he would have an irreversible breakdown. Our country, therefore, has declined in leadership, and sectional self-interests and pressure groups now dominate the total political response of the political parties. In that context I come to the Finance Bill.

Will this Bill really cut the current budget deficit projected for 1983, 1984 and 1985 which seems inevitable at this stage? The answer must be that it will hardly achieve that. If anything it looks as though the current Finance Bill will make the opening deficit for 1983 even more severe than it was in 1982. I do not disagree with Deputy Bruton when he says that a projected opening deficit of £1,100 million is not beyond the bounds of possibility at this stage. Will the Finance Bill release scarce current resources to finance the public capital programme for the next decade? Certainly this Finance Bill will not. It is not heading in that direction. To what extent will it assist the productive sectors of the economy? There is no great evidence that this Finance Bill has a thrust in that direction. To what extent does it really fore-shadow any fundamental reforms of the income taxation system? Any objective assessment must be that it does not aim in that direction either. If anything, it is more regressive, and anticipation of the report of the Commission on Income Taxation is, to say the least, a poor consolation. That report will pose more questions than it can answer and will provide information greater in extent than will be the political desire to face up to the facts it may disclose. Does the Finance Bill relate in any way to the widespread demand for the reform of PAYE and the PRSI systems? Again the answer must be in the negative.

These are some of the basic criticisms I make and I do so in the context of the statement made yesterday that 147,000 people are out of work. A significant and disastrous feature is that 42,000 of these are under the age of 25. If that significance does not dawn on politicians we will not be around much longer to see the impact of that figure.

On the question of the taxation measures proposed in this Bill, I would submit very strongly that any country whose citizens can afford to spend £2 million a day on booze can afford to have a decent income taxation system. We can even afford to eliminate poverty. We are now entering the summer season and I suppose many a Deputy will appear at Ballybrit for the Galway races.

And Ballybenidorm as well.

Yes, we spend £300 million a year on charter holidays. Any country which can afford to spend about £5 million at the Galway races can afford to house all its travelling people, some of whom will be there, and relieve this major social problem. People who own a piece of agricultural land worth about £2,500 can lodge an objection with a local authority and by virtue of a decision of that authority the land can attain a value of £35,000. A country which can afford such things can afford to introduce major reforms in the taxation system. Any country which can afford to give mortgages at three per cent or five per cent to many people simply because they work in certain undertakings can afford to build by way of taxation recoupment sufficient geriatric homes for the elderly homeless. Such homes are urgently needed. I am glad to see that the Minister has made a positive effort in the Finance Bill to cope with this situation. Any country whose citizens can afford to spend £300 million on charter holidays can afford to care for the deprived children in the community.

As somebody who would claim to be a socialist, not in the militaristic tradition but the social democratic tradition, I feel strongly that any country whose citizens can afford to speculate £140 million on oil exploration can afford to pay taxation so that the construction industry and other sectors can be helped. A Government who fail to deal with these situations which are manifestly evident do not deserve to be in office.

As a staunch defender of the principle of pay-related social insurance and of the general principle that people must pay for social services, health and education services by means of taxation, I have the greatest difficulty in facing many working people when they point out these manifestations of inequity, of tax avoidance and so on. One has a real difficulty in talking about taxation because there is a danger that so severe is the reaction by PAYE and PRSI payers that the baby will be thrown out with the bath water and we will finish up with an emasculated taxation system incapable of providing sufficient money to run the country. Our taxation system is inequitable and provides genuine grounds for dissatisfaction among those who claim that they are being excessively taxed. I strongly hold that view, yet I will not give ground to the mere wiping out of, say, £200 million in PRSI contributions, or a reduction in income tax of £300 million or so. That is not a solution. PAYE taxpayers have a genuine point when they claim that they are required to carry an undue burden of income tax vis-à-vis other sections. By “other sections” I mean some of the people I have just mentioned and also the self-employed and the farming community.

We need a system of taxation which will be broader than a system based simply on 20p in the £ for excise duty, 27p in the £ income tax and 20p in the £ for VAT. We cannot run a country and provide social services on that tripod alone, on an income tax system which relates only to a relatively small number of people, a VAT system which applies generally but which is limited in scope, and an excise duty system whereby we must become a nation of alcoholics to meet taxation demands. We know there is a severe limit on the amount which can accrue from excise duty.

The present system is manifestly inequitable and we must find a means of achieving a contribution from all sectors in proportion to their ability to pay. We must demonstrate that our taxation arrangements are scrupulously fair and are seen to be so. The inequality in our taxation system in recent years has become a source of increasing friction between different sections of the community. It is up to us to remedy that situation.

We must also examine — I had hoped that the Commission on Income Taxation would have had the report on this issue available — the central issue of which group in society gains most from the impact on taxation. There is very little real information on income distribution here. It is extremely difficult, even after analysing half a dozen Finance Bills, to try to assess with any degree of precision where precisely the net balance of advantage lies for particular groups in the community. The perceptions of people as to where they lie very often are wholly different. If one talks to any person on a door step while canvassing at election time one gets that response quickly. It is arguable in some respects that there has been no great transfer from the relatively better off to the poorer sections of the community. I am talking about those on a low income and other poorer sections.

I was impressed recently reading a comment by Deputy Dukes as reported in The Irish Times. The Deputy courageously said that the average middle-class family considers that it does not get an annual return for the tax paid but, he pointed out, it was getting £5,000 worth of State services and benefits annually. Courageously enough he went on to say that the average family with two children in secondary school and one at primary school, a telephone, a car and a house mortgage conservatively was getting £5,000 worth of services on the State without getting into the social welfare area. He estimated as follows: £700 of subsidised schooling for each child at secondary school; £400 for a child at primary school, plus drugs refund from health boards, subsidised telephone and rental charges, mortgage tax relief on the house and tax relief on the loan on the car. Try telling that on the doorsteps of middle-class Dublin and one will get a quick reaction. Yet, the question arises, is he telling the truth? A very detailed analysis as to who precisely benefits from taxation relief measures in the community is essential.

I should now like to deal with some of the other fundamental issues which arise. There is a serious issue in that in the 1981 General Election we had a major programme of taxation reform put forward by the Fine Gael Party. The Labour Party in that general election campaign told the electorate that there was not anything available for nothing for anybody in the community. We did not promise anything in that campaign. We did not promise any major or massive reliefs on income taxation to the PAYE sector. We did say that there should be substantial increases in capital taxation, and we were right. Fine Gael put forward a major tax programme which was the subject of great internal debate in the Government between mid-1981 and February 1982. It must be put on record that that programme was untenable, was wholly, absolutely and beyond any assessment untenable. That programme contains many proposals and with it Fine Gael in 1981 got a great many votes. People thought they were going to get a substantial reduction in income tax in general. During the succeeding seven or eight months in Government I made it clear that it was far from that. I had to do so. The cost of that taxation programme for a full year was £465 million.

There was also in that programme, as Deputy Manning will recall, a firm commitment on our part to raise social welfare by 25 per cent. That added £125 million for social welfare to the £465 million, making a total of £590 million. That is what the people voted for in 1981. Admittedly, we said that there would be increases on pay-related social insurance. We indicated that it would add on about £175 million, leaving a balance of £415 million to be met for the introduction of the programme of tax reform. That was to be met by way of indirect taxation. A lot of the country voted for that in 1981. In fairness to Deputy FitzGerald, and in particular in fairness to Deputy John Bruton, it was only when they took up office that they realised the magnitude of what they were proposing. They thought, and were advised by their then advisers prior to the general election, that the total cost would be about £200 million. They genuinely thought that could be managed, but it worked out at twice that figure.

I can recall saying in early 1982 that that taxation programme due to be introduced in the last budget, a measure on which we fell in February, was untenable and inoperable. That is the reality, but there was the other reality right through that period: that it was counterbalanced by the pugnacious determination of Deputy Haughey, then leader of the Opposition, and the all-embracing confidence of his economic adviser, Deputy O'Donoghue, coming up to the general election. There were equally profligate promises by the Fianna Fáil side. On balance the electorate in 1982 was more inclined to believe the Government than the prospective Government. In spite of the most difficult budget ever introduced in the history of the State the people said: it is terrible, it is harsh, it is vicious, but at least it is honest and we will go for it. Fine Gael pulled back from the over-expectations of their tax package twice. They had to climb down or otherwise the whole thing would have been in a shambles. Our people accepted that also.

It is important that we note that no one side in terms of electoral promises and what they would do in government is entirely without a good deal of blame. The Labour Party, shining angels as we always are with little electoral prospects, made no promises in the 1981 General Election. We said there was no way we could possibly indulge in this. I wish to say the same today and it is not an exercise to ambush the Minister with amendments to the Finance Bill in a fortnight which could bring down this Government. Deputy Gregory is sounding distinctly, twitteringly nervous in the back benches at this stage and he holds the key because, presumably, the Workers' Party representatives will now enter into principled Workers' Party opposition, comforting as that may be, for a short period before the next general election. In any event if this Finance Bill gets through, the one next year is going to be scuppered anyway as some people will discover that they want to renew their political souls with their electorate, and that is another appalling prospect facing the country along with the appalling paralysis that we have.

We come to what people want in terms of taxation. There is a universal demand to reduce the level of PAYE. Out of about £1,300 million in PAYE tax, people want about £300 million knocked off. They do not want the current tax bands. On top of that the electorate are demanding the abolition of the workers' contribution to PRSI, which is another £200 million. That is £500 million that people want by way of relief. People resent going into the 45p in the pound band so early on and they resent paying 55 per cent and 60 per cent. I am being badgered every day of the week by people saying that it is not worth while going out to work when one is stuck for 60 per cent tax at a relatively low income rate. They also want a massive reduction in PRSI. PRSI is worth £800 million to the Exchequer. Employers pay £400 million; the State puts in £200 million and the employee puts in another £200 million. Whatever about the employer contribution and the State contribution, many trade unions want the workers' contribution of £200 million removed. The three fundamental demands at the moment, £300 million off PAYE and £200 million for PRSI total £500 million. In addition, every manufacturer and importer in the country wants the £140 million of accelerated back payment also removed for 1982. There is tremendous reaction against it. Many manufacturers and importers say they cannot afford to pay it, that they will not have the money in October to pay it. I am referring to the deliberate bringing forward of 1983 moneys into 1982.

Therefore we are faced with demands which total approximately £640 million of taxation relief. Where is that money to come from? Not more than about £90 million could, with a very tough regime, come from capital taxation. For what is being accrued at the moment, about £14 million, one might as well abolish capital taxation altogether because it is not worth collecting. I have sympathy for the number of civil service staff engaged in trying to collect it because they are not getting any money. For example, total tax revenue for 1982 is estimated at £4,387 million. In terms of a contribution towards that money, the few minor remnants of estate duty, which was abolished, consists of 0.02 per cent.

Capital acquisitions tax became law in March 1976 and the income from that this year is estimated as a percentage of total revenue at 0.23 per cent. A capital acquisitions tax bringing in revenue of that kind is only a joke and should be abolished; it would be a joke in a handbook of taxation measures. Capital gains tax, as a percentage of total revenue for 1982, is estimated at 0.18 per cent. In addition there are some remnants of the wealth tax, which was abolished, and it is estimated that the income from that as a percentage of total tax revenue in 1982 will be 0.007 per cent. For all practical purposes capital taxation does not exist here and it is a sham to suggest that it does. If there were major changes in capital taxation we could bring in not more than about 2 per cent of revenue, about £90 million at the most.

However, we are still faced with a total demand of £640 million in tax reforms. If we knock off £100 million which could be got from capital taxation we are left with a shortfall of about £540 million. Where is that going to come from? If we abolish the £200 million, the employees' contribution to PRSI, where do we get that money? We could put 20p on the gallon of petrol which would bring in £70 million; we could put 10p a pint of beer which would bring in £50 million and we could increase the rate of VAT by 5 per cent which would bring in another £30 million or by ten per cent which would bring in £60 million. That is the reality. We could do that or we could increase our current budget deficit from £670 million, which was proposed in this year's budget but which worked out at about £900 million, and then we could go the International Monetary Fund, inform them of what we have done and they will give us a forced devaluation. That is all that will happen in terms of this country's future. The alternatives are 20p on a gallon of petrol, 10p on a pint of beer, increase the VAT rate, and we could comfortably abolish PRSI.

I am opposed to the abolition of PRSI. I believe in the fundamental principle of an income-related, pay-related social insurance system. I have fought for that in the Dáil since my election in 1969. I very strenuously opposed the flat rate insurance system which was manifestly inequitable — a flat rate across-the-board, no relativity to income and the only differentiation was between men, women and juveniles.

I do not believe in glib solutions. I do not agree with what has been said by many others. An official from my union, John Carroll, is on record as saying:

Workers' PRSI contributions should, however, be abolished and the amount of revenue foregone should be levied under a reform tax system on all those with the wherewithal to contribute.

The issue here is the wherewithal.

May we have the source of the quotation?

Liberty Magazine, May 1982: PRSI System Must Be Reformed. The total income for the PRSI fund for 1982 is about £870 million, employers' contribution £448 million, employees' contribution £162 million and the Exchequer contributes about £220 million. Are those who want PRSI abolished suggesting that employers should be relieved of that £448 million contribution? If not, what do we do? We put a further 30p on a gallon of petrol, or 30p on a pint of Guinness or a further 10 per cent on VAT.

These are reforms I would commend to the Minister but they need not come under the ambit of the Finance Bill. I believe the £9,500 PRSI income limit should be abolished. Some relief for those on the very low income bands could then be generated. That means people earning more than £9,500 would have to pay more and those on low incomes would be paying relatively less. That would be a measure of general reform.

I also believe the self-employed must be brought into the PRSI net, and broadening the taxation net is absolutely essential. There are 150,000 farmers who must be brought into the income tax and the PRSI nets. Unless they are there will be continuous massive community reaction, one group against the other. I have suggested three basic reforms of the PRSI system. They do not mean the abolition of the system but the extension and the development of the system in a rational way.

The maximum rate for a contributory old age pension is £70.30 per week for a person over 80 years of age with an adult dependant over 66 years. If we want to pay contributory old age pensions, that can only be done on a pay-related social insurance basis. There is no other way to do it unless we find oil or decide to sell our natural gas at a peanut price to a foreign entrepreneur. The maximum weekly rate of a widows' contributor pension and a deserted wife's benefit allowance is £39.45 a week, with substantial additional payments for dependent children. It is important to point out that unemployment and disability benefit for a married man and his spouse is £52.15 a week, plus payments for child dependants. In addition he can qualify for pay-related supplements.

I am not suggesting that £70.30, a contributory old age pension for somebody who worked all his life and who payed his social insurance, is a handsome amount; it is just enough for a couple to live on. I am not suggesting that a widow's contributory pension of almost £40 per week is a magnificant income. It is not; it is on the poverty line. Equally, a unemployed person and his wife getting £52 of £53 a week are on the poverty line. Many Deputies should try to live on that kind of money for a few weeks and see how they would manage. Then they would know what being on the poverty line is.

There are 3,800 people signing on at the Dún Laoghaire employment exchange, an extra 1,500 over the figure for last year. Many of them are middle income families out of work, 50-year-old sales representatives, no longer getting company cars, and living on £60 or £70 a week, between basic social welfare and pay-related payments. We have to be very careful what we are talking about. That is why I believe pay-related social insurance is the only way to provide fundamental social insurance benefits for those in need.

There is a great deal of misconception and superficial propaganda surrounding this question. I do not object to paying my pay-related contribution. I am a voluntary contributor paying the full 6.7 per cent rate, and I have been paying full social insurance since February 1957 when I first got a social insurance card. I do this because I want to, and must do it to protect my family. I do not object paying, as some people do, health contributions and youth employment levies. Under the Finance Bill we have a very simple choice: either borrow the money from foreign banks — Japanese, German or American — and repay them the money so that they can create jobs in their own countries, or pay for this service ourselves. There is no other choice. The issue is how to broaden the burden so that everybody is paying his fair share.

I come now to the other alternative, and it is a stark alternative. If we want to take £300 million off income tax, as is the popular demand, we must either raise indirect taxation or make a cut-back in public expenditure. It is tragic that some are exploiting the PRSI situation. This puts at risk a fundamental and, in my view, socialist concept of social insurance which is shared by many Deputies, not necessarily of the Labour Party. We must face up to the fact that this £300 million can be raised another way. We can easily abolish pay-related social insurance and integrate the £200 million into the income tax system, but income tax will be raised by another 14 per cent, roughly speaking. The choices are either more indirect taxation, increased income tax from absorption of the PRSI amount — because PRSI is basically a form of income taxation but it is socially insured related, which is the important principle behind it — or a cut-back on public expenditure. There are some horrific alternatives. How does one provide the £450 million to £500 million demanded by way of relief? Does one cut school transport, which at the moment costs £24 million. For the sake of argument, let us abolish it — imagine the reaction. Let us abolish food subsidies and save £140 million — imagine the reaction. Let us reintroduce rates. Currently, rates relief amounts to £120 million. To halve that would save £60 million.

For the sake of argument — and this is purely by way of analysis — let us decide to charge, once again, for primary school education, £40 to £50 per annum per pupil, which would give us another £10 to £12 million. Let CIE cut both rail and road services and increase fares. That would give us another £20 million. Let us abolish, for example, civil defence and save £1 million. Then let us go the whole hog, on a hypothetical basis, of abolishing all pay-related social insurance and save another £50 million. Having gone through that excruciating exercise, one can discontinue medical cards for about a third of the present users and save £15 million. Finally, as a good socialist should never leave out the farmets, let us decide that all farmers will, in future, pay for disease eradication. It is arguable that they should, in any event. We would thus save another £20 million.

Having indulged in that massive exercise cutback in public expenditure, we only gain £200 million, which still falls massively short of the £450 million demanded by way of tax relief. We could even say to the post office workers and the Garda: "No more overtime." Admittedly, we would save about £40 million, but that is only 10 per cent of what is now demanded by way of tax relief and of what political parties are haggling over across the floor of this House in terms of trying to con the electorate into giving them support for something which cannot possibly be delivered. The only way of delivering the taxation proposals in the 1981 manifesto on the Fine Gael side and the Fianna Fáil proposals coming up to the 1982 budget was to indulge in a cut-back on public expenditure or to borrow massively abroad and force the country into a crisis of credit worthiness. That is the situation. Even doing all that, there is a current budget deficit of the best part of £900 million.

We come to a number of areas where reforms can, perhaps, be introduced. I do not wish to sound negative or in any way destructive of some of the arguments advanced. I have put forward one definite proposal, namely, that there should be a substantial increase in capital taxation. However, there should be limits, because there are limits to the amount of money which can be collected by this means. There should be some examination of VAT increases. These should be titled in favour of those goods which are bought predominantly by higher income groups. The yield would not be very much but some of the VAT rates should be directed towards goods with a high import content. There is still scope for re-examination of the categories of goods now included in the different VAT bands, to see if some goods of the luxury or high import content type could be shifted to higher bands. That could be examined, with some benefit to the Exchequer, although the benefit would not be massive in terms of yield. We have already seen a degree of selectivity introduced with regard to video recorders and so on. The Minister might examine this point.

Tax relief on non-mortgage interest should be discontinued. A good deal of the interest relief still goes on items such as cars, which have a high import content. There is no case to be made for subsidising what is, effectively, a negative rate of interest on no specified range of items. On tax relief on mortgage interest for house purchase, I have always held the view that this should be phased out over a period. Certainly, tax relief on mortgage interest for second-time purchase for people trading up in the market should have been discontinued.

There are many ways in which reforms could be brought in. There is no doubt that a number of people who bought houses over the last ten to 20 years, but particularly over the past eight or nine years, would not be caused major hardship by such a change of taxation. We all know that investment in house property, whether owner-occupied or not, gives a very high rate of tax-free return on the equity investment. We must bear in mind also that a great deal of new house building, particularly in the Dublin area, in the past decade has consisted of semi-luxury type housing predominantly availing of tax relief.

An Foras Forbartha surveys have shown that about 80 per cent of all new houses in the greater Dublin area would, broadly speaking, fall into that category of the four- or five-bedroomed detached dwelling. A taxation system which caters for "trading up" and absorbing scarce resources of land, skilled labour and finance should not be continued. These moneys on the tax side should be given to the first-hand buyer, the young people who are screaming to get a decent house and cannot possibly afford it, people who are crucified trying to get £5,000 or £6,000 for a deposit. They should come first, and we should not give tax relief for mortgages to people who "trade up" on the market. Many might not agree with my view, but I think it is a basic way of changing the whole system.

Here I come to a major issue, farm taxation. We should get another £30 million or £40 million per year from the farming community. No Government, with perhaps the exception of one Minister, Deputy Richie Ryan, was prepared to take on the strength of the farming lobby in relation to income taxation. Many people who live in urban areas and pay PRSI know that there is a substantial block of farmers in rural Ireland who, even in times of relatively low income, can still afford to pay a substantial amount of general income taxation. I estimate that about £40 million to £50 million a year should come from the farming community into the Exchequer.

State expenditure on agriculture is very high. In 1980, for example, the State contributed directly about £227 million. Last year State expenditure was £310 million. A great deal of money is transferred both from the National Exchequer and from EEC aid under the common agricultural policy. The total transfers to Irish agriculture per annum from the Exchequer and EEC aid is now running at a rate of about £600 million a year. In 1981 it was £623 million. Very many farmers are on low incomes but I personally hold this view very strongly, I think the political party that makes this a big issue is probably a party which, particularly in urban areas, will get a lot of support. The Labour Party have always tried to adopt a national view. We do not purport to represent just wage and salary earners in an urban setting but workers, whether on the farm or off it, in a broad, national way. It is true that the estimated receipt of income tax in respect of farm profits for 1982 is about £17 million. That figure has to be contrasted, not in a very accurate way because there are derivatory differences, with the fact that about £1,376 million is collected on PAYE, admittedly from a much larger group of people. That £17 million should and must be in terms of social equity increased to about £60 million per year. The Fine Gael Party and our party may not advocate it but somebody must advocate it because I cannot talk in equity and fairness to wage and salary earners about PRSI or PAYE or about direct and indirect taxation unless I am prepared to say that all sections of the community must contribute. I am adamant on that point.

Lest the House be under any illusion, I would also point out that there are other areas of development — for example, net rates payable in respect of holdings of agricultural land. There has been a massive decline in such rates. In 1979 it was £36 million; in 1981 it was £31 million; in 1982 it is down to £18.3 million. There is the old argument that because farmers have to pay rates they should not have to pay income tax. That does not stand up because successive Governments have virtually abolished payment of tax on farm profits and have also successively reduced rates payable by farmers on their land. There is an urgent need therefore to change the system.

I also advocate very strongly that all payments in relation to income taxation should be on a straightforward account system. Notional elements and all the various devices should be abolished and it should be based on an accounts system as required by law in relation to income tax or corporation profits tax. I shall not delay the House much further but I would be more specific perhaps about some of the reactions I have to this Finance Bill. I assure the Minister that my reactions are neither designed in terms of ambush in the future or in terms of amendments which would be purely hypocritical. Any amendments the Labour Party would put down to this Bill will be on the basis that for each amendment demanding relief we shall put down an amendment imposing taxation. That is a fairly tall order in terms of Finance Bill amendments. It would be very easy to put down a half dozen amendments to trap the Independents into going into the lobby on a "Vote No" basis and not have a concomitant basis. The situation is far too serious for that now in terms of political gain but I submit that in regard to mortgage interest — this might make the point generally to the Minister — I believe that where a mortgage is taken out after 6 April 1982 the allowance of interest paid should only relate to a loan for the purchase of the taxpayer's only or main residence. The fairness of that is self-evident.

Again, I think I should advocate that relief should only be allowed at not higher than the 35 per cent rate. I still hold that view which I held in the last budget. I would put the ceiling again at £35,000. Anybody who can afford to pay £70,000 or £80,000 for a house and wants to get tax relief on it can hump off as far as I am concerned. That is fairly ruthless but I would be tough about it. If we claim to be interested in social justice there is no justification for mortgage interest relief for second houses or for mortgage interest relief for somebody who wants to buy a holiday home in the west or the south of Ireland.

That is not anywhere.

I accept that. As regards bridging loans, where a taxpayer is changing his only or main residence there should perhaps be relief but as regards loans generally I would be extremely loth to provide general facilities.

I think the Minister should reintroduce taxation on discretionary trusts. I consider that to be a serious mistake. The rate proposed in the January budget was only 3 per cent on the establishment of the trust.

Debate adjourned.
Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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