Questions Nos. 1 to 9 on today's Order Paper were answered yesterday and it was agreed that supplementaries on those questions would be allowed today. I call on Deputy Keating.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Housing Finance Agency.
In the light of the Minister's reply yesterday, does he agree that the delays or prevarications by the Government, and the difficulties being caused for local authorities, mean that many hundreds of people who have submitted applications and who have applied for bridging loans have been misled, and would the Minister arrange for the immediate allocation of finance——
On 2 May 1982 the Government announced that local authorities may approve loans under the Housing Finance Agency Act, 1981. The Deputy can take it that all applications that have been accompanied by the necessary legal documents, such as title, will be processed by the local authorities.
I thank you, Sir, and the Minister for having agreed to take the supplementaries today on these questions. The Minister has said that he would advise only people who cannot raise conventional loans in the ordinary way to use the agency. Is not that precisely what I said on the Second Reading of the Bill — that when people have not the deposits for what we might call conventional loans they could apply to the agency for accommodation? What is the difference between the position then and what the Minister said on 2 May last?
I would point out that the agency is still in its infancy. I have told people in my constituency to look at the regulations——
Does the Minister agree that what Deputy Connolly, the Minister of State, has just said is different from what the Minister of the Environment said on 9 March, that he would have to amend the scheme because of its obvious defects?
I did not read that. My recollection is that a statement was issued that the Government would be making an announcement on it in due course, and on 2 May we announced that local authorities may approve loans——
Can we take it, then, that the Government see the merits of the agency and that they will provide the money to clear the applications——
There is no problem. The Minister will meet the agency next week to finalise and to sort out any outstanding matters in that regard. As far as we are concerned, applications will be processed as quickly as possible. I assure the Deputy that the money is there.
Will the Minister agree that the agency was founded to cater specifically for people who would not get loans from standing lending agencies or who would have extreme difficulty in getting bridging finance, irrespective of guarantees their solictors might give to standing finance institutions? Is he aware that Dublin Corporation are not clear when they will be given the money by the agency, and that people who have applied for agency loans will not get bridging loans on foot of housing agency contracts? Can he give a guarantee to Dublin Corporation on how much money will be available monthly?
I can assure the Deputy that there will not be any undue delay in regard to money or to applicants when title and other legal requirements are in order. Dublin County Council and Corporation have been told to go ahead with the processing of all applications. Deputy Mitchell has a question down which I will deal with when it arises.
Does the Minister agree that this has caused dismay and distress to many people? The Minister is pouring cold water on the distress of many applicants.
I have asked local authorities throughout the country to explain the position generally to the people who are about to undertake mortgages under the scheme. I have asked them to explain the position in plain language. It will then be a matter for the applicant to decide whether he wishes to enter into a contract. Deputy Birmingham said I was pouring cold water on the thing. My views on this became well known when the Bill was going through the House last December. On that occasion I spent more that 14 hours in the House——
Is the Minister aware that applications are not being processed despite the 2 May announcement referred to by the Minister and despite the directive given by the Department? Kerry County Council have sent 20 queries to the Department. Why have those queries not been answered?
That matter has not been brought to my notice. Any case brought to my notice or to the notice of the Chairman of the Housing Finance Agency will be dealt with.
Is the Minister washing his hands from it?
I never washed my hands from anything.
Agency loans have been processed by Cork County Council but there is no money there to meet the loans. When is it intended to provide the money? When is it intended to make advances to Cork County Council to finance applications?
I can assure the Deputy that the money will be there for applications which have been processed, and when the necessary legal documents are in order. When all the criteria have been met the money will be available.
The Minister still has not replied to the questions. It is rubbish. Will he make the money available, and if so, when?
I refer to Question No. 8 in which I asked the Minister the number of applications received for housing loans——
The Deputy said I was telling lies, and I want to say——
Deputies
He did not say that.
My credibility is at stake. I am well able to defend myself inside and outside the House. I said yesterday that I would give as much information as possible and I am giving it. I will give the good news as well as the bad.
A good performance, but still rubbish.
I want to verify what the Minister has said. Deputy Quinn, on a number of occasions, stated that the Minister was telling lies.
I did not hear that. Deputy Shatter has been trying to get in for some time.
The Minister has said he is happy to be the purveyor of good news and bad news. In this context I refer him to Question No. 8 part of which asked the number of loan approvals granted so far pursuant to the scheme. I note that a reply has not been given to that question. I want to know how many loan approvals have been given under the scheme. Will the Minister confirm that between 350 and 400 such loan approvals have been given to date by Dublin County Council? Will he further confirm that no funds of this nature have been made available to the county council for the purpose of providing money pursuant to those loan approvals? Will he explain the reason for that?
If the Deputy reads my reply he will see I said that further data in the form sought by the Deputy was not available but I gave the number who had applied, which was 1,600.
Rubbish.
The Minister should be allowed to speak.
Where the legal title is in order the money will be made available.
(Interruptions.)
The Deputies can take it or leave it.
When this agency was set up it was envisaged that 2,000 applications would be approved in one year. The fact that 1,600 applicants applied in a three-week period — the scheme was in cold storage for five or six weeks after the change of Government — is proof that whatever Fianna Fáil may think of the scheme the public want it and appreciate its merits.
I wish to be as helpful as I can. I will help in every way to see that the applications are processed and that the money is allocated.
Does the Minister acknowledge that the public see the merits of the scheme and wish to avail of it?
There is a difference of opinion about this scheme across the political divide.
It is only in this House that there is a difference of opinion.
In view of the fact that the Minister on a number of occasions said the the whole procedure is no problem, can he deny that up to date not one penny has been paid to any applicant under the scheme? In his reply yesterday he referred to discussions and clarification with local authorities later this month. Will he accept that this means that not one local authority is in a position to deal with anyone, either from the point of view of the clarification required or because they have no resources? Will the Minister come clean and tell people if he will give loans?
The answer is yes.
When?
As soon as possible. I think Deputies understand plain English. It will be done as soon as the legal documents are completed and the usual criteria complied with in the matter of loan applications.
The Minister is a hyprocrite.
The Minister has repeated the same answer over and over again. Will he not accept that at this stage he is deliberately misleading the House?
The Deputy may not say that.
I have just said it.
The Deputy must withdraw that remark. I am adamant about this.
Like the Chair I happen to be an elected Member of this House.
That does not entitle the Deputy to make statements like that.
I am entitled to an honest answer.
I am asking the Deputy to withdraw the remark.
I will withdraw it in order to maintain my representation in this House but I do so under protest.
I will ensure that the Deputy may ask supplementaries but I am telling him he must withdraw the remark.
In deference to the Chair I will withdraw it. I ask the Minister a question in the following context. There are constituents of mine, and the same applies to other Deputies, who are on bridging finance they cannot afford but we are getting nonsense in the form of replies.
The Deputy must ask a question, not make a statement.
I ask the Minister a simple question. When can I and other Deputies tell our constituents they can go off bridging finance? If the Minister tells me he does not know I will accept that as an honest answer but he should stop playing around with this matter. If the country has not the money applicants should be told they will not get the loans. Giving answers such as, "as soon as possible" or "in due process" is insulting. I know the Minister has a difficult job but the answer he is giving us is not worthy of him. He should tell us the truth so that, in turn, we can tell the truth to the unfortunate people on bridging finance.
It is regular practice that when a person acquires a loan from a lending institution in respect of a house he goes on bridging finance. Looking around here I see some people who are in the legal profession and they know the situation. Money is not handed over by any institution if the legal documents are not in order. I stated earlier that as soon as the legal documents are in order money will be made available. That is all I can say.
(Dún Laoghaire): Is the Minister trying to say that every single application has some legal problem? It is all very well for the Minister to give a very vague answer which may annoy the House and then the Ceann Comhairle looks after him——
The Ceann Comhairle is not looking after the Minister.
(Dún Laoghaire): As Deputy Quinn pointed out, there are thousands of people on bridging finance who cannot afford it but the Minister is not giving us the real information. Local authorities are being hounded day after day by people who want to know when their loans will be processed and paid. Yet, the Minister comes here and tells us that there is a legal problem with regard to every single application. That is a joke.
I did not say there was a legal problem with every application.
That was the implication.
In every mortgage taken out the legal documents must be completed.
The Minister is saying that none of them can be completed.
In every transaction the legal documents must be in order. In my own area, Laois-Offaly, applications were made that were withdrawn subsequently.
What was the reason? It is because the Minister is strangling the scheme.
I am not strangling anything. The Deputy cannot have his loaf and eat it.
The Minister has no trouble in convincing us that there are legal problems involved in the processing of loans but he is putting a smokescreen over this matter. He must accept that these applications are not being processed by the local authorities. They have not been moved from the desks they were piled on when the applications were sent to the local authorities. Will the Department do something about it?
I do not know if the Deputy got a copy of my reply. On 2 May 1982 the Minister announced that local authorities may approve loans under the Housing Finance Agency Act on the basis of the scheme already announced.
What are they doing about it?
Is the Minister aware of a single person anywhere who has received funds of any nature pursuant to a loan approval being granted through the national housing agency's scheme?
If the Deputy puts down a question on that, I will answer it.
(Interruptions.)
Is the Minister aware that Dublin Corporation have applied to his Department for finance for 150 loans under the Housing Finance Agency? Could he tell me if and when he will make that money available to Dublin Corporation, who have processed the documents as of this date?
If they have applied to the agency, the money will be made available.
When?
As soon as they want it.
When?
Immediately.
I hope that answer is on the record as it is very important.
I have allowed this to go on for 20 minutes. We must go on to the next question.
The Minister said he issued a circular on 5 May to local authorities and that the authorities looked for the money. It is now seven weeks later and no money has been paid out. Could the Minister explain why that has happened? In other schemes, if there is approval to a loan authority and if they apply for the money it is paid. Why has it not been paid in this instance? What special factor is at work in the Minister's Department preventing the payment of money, something in respect of which he says loan approvals have been authorised by his Department?
I do not know of any undue delay.
Seven weeks?
If any county council or corporation look for the money they will get it.
They have looked for it. The Minister is misleading the House.
(Interruptions.)
I have given 25 minutes for these supplementaries. I know it is important. That is why I made sure that everyone who had a question down got an opportunity to ask it.
People could be on bridging finance for 25 years.
We must go on to Question No. 10.
10.
asked the Minister for the Environment the reason a person with, for example, 20 weeks unemployment in the previous tax year may not be qualified under the projected income clause of the Housing Finance Agency scheme and is restricted to previous years earnings; and if he will give a directive to the agency to ensure that such cases are processed on a projected income basis.
11.
asked the Minister for the Environment if he will agree to vary the conditions stipulated by the Housing Finance Agency to allow persons to go on projected earnings where they have been on substantial social welfare earnings for the previous year or where they did not have earnings at all; if he will consider introducing amending legislation or making an amending order if necessary; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 10 and 11 together.
Certain guidelines were issued to housing authorities by my Department on 26 February 1982, to advise them of the general policies and principles to be adopted in dealing with applications for agency loans. This document stated specifically that the maximum amount of loan available under the scheme will be three times the gross income (including overtime) of the borrower or his spouse in the previous tax year, subject to this amount not exceeding 90 per cent of the net value of the house or the appropriate upper loan limit; provided, however, that where the income of a borrower or his spouse in the previous tax year was derived mainly from social welfare payments the amount of loan may be based on a multiple of up to three times the estimated income in the current year. To alter the scheme along the lines recommended by the Deputy would increase liabilities under the scheme. The agency considers that it would be undesirable at this early stage to alter the details of the scheme in a manner which would lead to increased liabilities. The agency will, however, keep the operation of the scheme under review and introduce amendments to the scheme in due course in the light of experience. Any such amendments will be subject to the consent of the Minister and the Minister for Finance.
I share the agency's view as regards their general approach to the question of amendments to the scheme, and I am not disposed at this stage to issue a directive to the agency along the lines proposed by the Deputy.
Is the Minister aware that when Deputy Barry was Minister for the Environment and introduced this legislation, he wanted to make finance available as widely as possible and to as many people as possible, especially to those most in need? It is not helpful to restrict benefit to someone who is unemployed for 20 or 23 weeks or, in the case of one constituent of mine who was a voluntary lay preacher, and had no income in the previous year——
I am sorry, Deputy Mitchell, you cannot make a speech, ask a question.
Would the Minister instruct the agency to allow these people to qualify and stop the nonsense?
The Minister is meeting the agency next week and, because the Deputy mentioned that matter before, the Minister is raising it with the agency next week.
Would the Minister also raise with the agency the position of people who were apprentices last year and came into mature employment after that and whose incomes for the year would be very much lower than £7,000?
I will do that.
Would the Minister communicate the outcome of that meeting to the House because of its obvious interest and importance?
I will write to the Deputy and let him know.
(Dún Laoghaire): Is the Minister aware that when the multiplier is applied to a previous year's earnings it is the only time that such a system is used with regard to housing finance loans? If one gets a loan from a building society it is based on the current year's earnings. Surely the original design of the scheme was that the £9,000 income limit was based on the previous year's earnings in order to qualify? Would the Minister agree to apply the multiplier to this year's earnings in the circumstances which Deputy Mitchell has outlined?
In view of what Deputy Barry has also said I will look at this question. With regard to general income it is generally the income on 5 April 1982, which is taken into account for loans. I take the Deputy's point and I will raise it with the agency next week.