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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 25 Jun 1982

Vol. 336 No. 8

Estimates, 1982. - Vote 38: Agriculture.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £265,235,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1982, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain subsidies and sundry grants-in-aid.

The formal motion for the Estimate for Lands and the Supplementary Estimate for Agriculture will be put at the end of the debate but the debate itself will cover all three Estimates. Notes on the main activities of my Department, including the Land Commission, have already been circulated and will, I trust, be of assistance to Deputies. Before dealing with detailed aspects of the Agriculture Estimate I would like to make a few general observations on the current situation in agriculture and the role of agriculture in the economy.

Agricultural output in 1981 was worth over £1,900 million at farm gate value. This represents an increase of more than 15 per cent over 1980. Some improvement in the agricultural cost-price ratio was apparent during 1981; the rate of input price increase was less than 15 per cent while output prices rose by almost 19 per cent. As a result of this development, family farm incomes rose by 17 per cent in nominal terms. Allowing for inflation and for a decline in the number of people employed on the land, the net result was a decline of almost 2 per cent in real income per head. This was not an outstanding result but it compares favourable with the very substantial declines in real farm incomes in 1979 and 1980, and provides the basis for the more significant improvement which seems likely in the current year.

As regards the contribution of agriculture to the Irish economy, I would point out that in 1981 it accounted for approximately 12 per cent of gross national product, while agricultural exports together with receipts from FEOGA amounted to £1,553 million, or almost a third of the country's total exports. The proportion of our people directly engaged in agriculture was nearly 19 per cent of all those gainfully employed. In addition to this contribution from the primary agricultural sector, agriculture-based industry consolidated its role as an important contributor to the national economy employing 15 per cent of all those engaged in manufacturing and accounting for 25 per cent of total manufacturing output. These performance figures relate to a year in which agricultural production was still suffering from the effects of the recession and in which output was still very much below the potential of our soil and our agricultural processing industries.

The years 1979 and 1980 constituted a very difficult period for Irish agriculture. As prices failed to keep pace with inflation, interest rates rose sharply and family farm incomes dropped as a result. As I have said, the farm income outturn in 1981 represented a significant improvement on performance in the immediately preceding years. Current indications are that this improvement can now be built on and sustained. Some independent commentators have suggested that family farm incomes may rise by as much as 25 per cent this year. After allowing for inflation this would mean a return to growth in farm incomes in real terms.

In this context and amid these signs of recovery on the way the Government are setting their priorities for the agricultural sector. The planning group which I recently established will make an important input in this respect. This group is representative of all the main agricultural interests, and it is hoped that its report will be available by about October next. In the meantime the Estimates before the House reflect my concern that the national breeding herd should be expanded so as to lay the foundation for sustained growth over the period of the plan and that agriculture should be a buoyant developing sector of the economy making a major contribution to overall national recovery and expansion.

We are all aware of the influence which the EEC and, in particular, decisions made under the common agricultural policy have on the development of Irish agriculture. The most important of these decisions is the annual farm prices package. I can well understand the concern expressed by farmers at the delay in concluding the price fixing negotiations in most years. The annual price fixing has become increasingly difficult and complex, with issues now being included which have little relevance to farm prices. This year the task was made even more difficult by the action of the UK in linking its agreement on the farm package to a satisfactory agreement on its budgetary rebate issue. In the end, the majority of my colleagues and I considered that this did not justify delaying the agreement on farm prices which had been already supported by nine member states. As a result, the Agricultural Ministers decided the issue by majority vote. I am satisfied that this action was fully justified and in the best interests of Irish agriculture. While the delay in reaching agreement on the prices this year was no worse than in a number of recent years, these delays have a particular impact on Irish farmers because they occur at a time when our milk production is seasonally high. I intend to see what can be done to avoid a repetition in the future of these undesirable delays.

From Ireland's point of view, the farm package negotiated was a most satisfactory one. Its main features included an average increase of 10½ per cent in farm support prices and a calf premium of £22 per head for our producers. In addition, a national calved heifer scheme is being introduced to stimulate growth in our breeding herd. The milk co-responsibility levy has been reduced by ½ per cent and a special scheme of aid is being provided for small milk producers. This measure will involve the payment of £4½ million to our producers, and my Department are in contact with the farmer organisations as to how best this payment might be distributed. The overall benefit of the package to the Irish farm sector is estimated at £235 million over a full 12-month period. This is a huge figure by any standard. It will provide an important boost by way of income support to the farming community and will encourage increased production.

The figure of £235 million represents only part of the Community benefit to our agriculture. It shows the effects of one year's price increase. We should not forget that the farm sector also benefits from the effects of past decisions. Part of these benefits are reflected in direct transfers from the Community. In 1981 my Department paid out as much as £329 million from the guarantee section of FEOGA. Also, there are, of course, the benefits of the higher prices realised from sales of agricultural products within the Community. These sales do not normally involve FEOGA payment but the benefits accruing to our farmers from the higher prices obtained are no less real.

All this goes to demonstrate how vital the CAP is to us, not only for the influence it has on the agricultural sector but also for its impact on the economy as a whole. As we know, there are those who would like to see the CAP overhauled and changed. They want to see expenditure on agriculture curtailed and the Community budget restricted in a way that would be to our disadvantage. The whole issue of Community financing has been brought to a head by the fact that EEC expenditure is approaching its legal limit and there is indeed extremely strong pressure to impose some limitation on the Community resources made available to agriculture. As Minister for Agriculture, I will resist vigorously any attempts to change the fundamental rules under which the CAP operates at present and, so as to ensure that adequate resources will be available for agriculture, I will continue to campaign for the modification of the artificial limit on the Community budget, which is restricting the development of the entire Community.

Turning now to the Estimates themselves, the gross sum for the Agriculture Estimate is almost £356 million or some £65 million more than the amount provided in 1981. The main increases occur under salaries and wages, consumer subsidies on milk and butter, interest subsidy schemes, scheme for expansion of the cattle breeding herd, market intervention, the farm modernisation scheme and the EEC Programme of Special Measures for Ireland. Receipts are estimated to rise by £19 million, the main increases being in contributions from the EEC in respect of the accelerated eradication of bovine diseases, the farm modernisation scheme and the disadvantaged areas schemes.

The gross amount of £356 million which I have mentioned does not, of course, represent the full picture in regard to expenditure on agriculture because it does not include most of the money handled by my Department in respect of EEC agricultural support measures. In 1981 direct payments on these measures funded by the EEC amounted to some £329 million while £92 million raised by borrowings was used to meet the capital cost of intervention purchases of beef, skimmed milk powder and barley.

I should like now to deal with some of the main agricultural products. Although cattle prices recently were at their highest level ever, supplies of slaughter cattle are tight and many of the meat factories are working at reduced capacity, are closed or on short-time working. Factory throughout in 1981 was 883,000 cattle as against 1,368,000 in 1980. Live exports were also down in 1981 — to 431,000 head compared with 474,000 in 1980. Recent changes in the rates of EEC export refunds should prove advantageous to the meat trade. The export refunds on carcase beef have been increased by 18 per cent, while refunds on live cattle were increased by 6 per cent. This has led to a situation where the refund on carcase beef is now approximately £60 higher than that on the live animal, thus enabling the factories to compete effectively for the available supplies of cattle. Also, as a result of pressure by me, a proposal has been put forward by the Commission which will put boneless beef on the same footing as bone-in beef. This will remove a longstanding grievance of the meat industry. However, until cattle numbers are increased, I cannot see a dramatic long-term improvement in the cattle supply position.

An expanded national herd is the essential basis for enabling both the meat trade and the live trade to make their proper contribution to the betterment of the farming community and the national economy. A measure to encourage expansion of the cattle breeding herd has been introduced, and a sum of £5.5 million has been provided under subhead D.6 for this purpose. This measure provides for an interest subsidy of £70 for each additional calved heifer over and above normal herd replacements. Application forms for this subsidy are now available at local offices of my Department and ACOT, and an announcement to this effect is being made in the newspapers. For next year and 1984 the subsidy will be in the form of a straight grant of £70.

In the recent EEC price negotiations I secured agreement to the extension of the calf premium to this country. This is something we have been seeking ever since that premium was introduced in the mid-seventies, and I am glad to have been successful in securing it at last. The premium scheme is now in operation and calves are being tagged throughout the country. Payment under the scheme will not, however, arise until after January next when the first eligible calves will reach the qualifying age of six months. I am confident that the measures now in operation will go a long way towards restoring farmer confidence in expanding their herds and providing the much-needed additional supplies for the export trade.

The beef classification scheme has now been in operation on a statutory basis for just over two years. I regret, however, that as yet it is not adequately reflected in the pricing policies of the factories. It is of great importance for the future of a beef industry that quality production should be appropriately rewarded. This is indispensable if our cattle prices are to be brought more into line with those obtaining elsewhere in the EEC. Work is indeed at an advanced stage in the introduction of a common Community classification system for beef. This will bring a considerable degree of price transparency to the Community market as a whole, but it will also show up more clearly where we fall down on quality and it will emphasise the need to produce what the market requires.

My Department are continuing the various measures for the improvement of the quality of both beef and dairy herds. These include imports of high quality bulls and semen, and an expanded programme of progeny testing. The number of inseminations by the AI service in 1981 was approximately 1.1 million, of which beef breeds accounted for 52 per cent and dairy breeds for 48 per cent. This increased level of usage is at least partly attributable to the subsidy of £4.94 for each first insemination which is available under the EEC Programme of Special Measures for Ireland. This subsidy is continuing and a sum of £5.88 million is provided for it under subhead M.9.

The prosperity of the entire beef industry is affected not only by export market conditions but also by how we market our beef abroad. In this connection the promotional activities of CBF on the main Community markets have been paying dividends. Subhead I.1 shows a significant increase — from £371,000 in 1981 to £765,000 in 1982 — in the provision for CBF. Arrangements are also being made to enable CBF to obtain a bigger income from the levy on slaughterings and live exports. I shall shortly be introducing a motion in the House to provide for this.

Under subhead C.1 over £200,000 has been provided for milk recording, which under arrangements now being introduced will become the responsibility of a new co-operative representative of the major interests involved. It is expected that up to 35,000 cows will be recorded this year under the new system while a further 35,000 will be recorded under the Department's existing scheme. The intention is that the latter should be phased out and replaced by the new system.

Creamery milk production in 1981 was 820 million gallons, a decrease of almost 2 per cent compared with the previous year. The outlook for this year is, however, more promising. On the basis of production returns to date and given reasonably favourable weather during the rest of the main production season, there should be an increase of about 5 per cent. The decline in milk production since 1978 has, of course, led to under-employment of the industry's resources, and this in turn has meant that the profitability of the dairy co-operatives has come under some pressure. We are fortunate in having a highly-developed dairy manufacturing capacity — comparable with any in the world — which has been able to overcome the difficulties resulting from static or declining volumes of raw material.

Our priority now must be to increase milk production. We have some natural advantages which should enable us to attain the levels of development reached by our more advanced partners in the Community. The rewards for doing so would be very great indeed. If we were to raise average milk yields in Ireland to the level of the Community average, we would add over £300 million a year to output from the dairy sector. As virtually all of this would be exported, it would involve a considerable and welcome improvement in our balance of payments situation.

This year saw the 21st anniversary of the establishment of An Bord Bainne. During its 21 years in existence the board's annual exports have risen from £7 million to £450 million, and it has demonstrated commendable enterprise and versatility in the way in which it has successfully marketed an expanding range of Irish dairy products in practically every corner of the globe. I am sure that we can look forward to an equally successful performance by the board in the years ahead.

In the case of sheepmeat the Community system which was introduced in late 1980 is functioning satisfactorily so far as we are concerned. The market support arrangements have increased confidence among producers and there has been an increase in the national breeding flock over the last 12 months.

On the commencement of the new regime member states had the option of market support through a variable premium or a ewe premium. The UK chose the variable premium, while all other member states, including ourselves, opted for the ewe premium. The use of different systems gave rise to smuggling from Northern Ireland to here. With a view to curbing this smuggling, Northern Ireland has now been made a separate region for sheepmeat, and will in future operate a ewe premium system as we do. This should alleviate the smuggling problem and restore normal trading patterns.

Sheep production is now one of the most remunerative enterprises for Irish farmers, and the low initial capital outlay makes it particularly attractive. Good market prices are available for the right product, and producers and processors alike should not miss the opportunity of supplying what Continental markets require. This means giving special attention to producing leaner lambs within a certain weight range. CBF can, of course, play a valuable part in expanding the markets we have and in developing new ones.

The value of pig output expanded appreciably in 1981. While there is a reasonably good market at present, there is some uncertainty about the position later in the year. The EEC Commission has, however, undertaken to introduce market support measures if necessary.

I am sorry to say that there is again a great deal of uncertainty concerning the future of centralised export marketing which has always been regarded as essential for the pigmeat industry. The present problems arise from a Supreme Court ruling in May 1981 which effectively deprived the Pigs and Bacon Commission — the PBC — of its statutory source of income. Contributions on a voluntary basis were not forthcoming, and indeed support for the PBC wanted rapidly. First of all my predecessor, and later I myself, had lengthy discussions with all interested parties with a view to continuing centralised exporting in some form. Following on these discussions the Government decided in March last to assume responsibility for a deficit of £5.6 million which the PBC had accumulated mainly because the non-payment of levies by bacon factories, as well as for the cost of some staff redundancies and pension rights of other retired staff. The £5.6 million is being provided for in a Supplementary Estimate moved today.

For their part the industry have taken over the running and all other costs of the PBC since early April. Discussions are continuing between the various interests concerned on the establishment of a new organisational structure which will replace the present PBC and enable the industry to continue centralised exporting arrangements under the control of, and fully financed by, the industry itself. The sooner a new agreed structure emerges, the better for the industry. The Government have made a very significant contribution to the solution of the problems which exist. It is reasonable to expect that other interests involved, that is the curers and the producers, will make their contribution now.

So far as poultry and eggs are concerned production in 1981 showed a slight increase on 1980. This is encouraging, particularly in the egg sector where confidence seems to be slowly returning. Another encouraging feature is that the response to the scheme of aid measures for commercial egg packers has been much higher than was expected. This scheme enables applicants to seek FEOGA assistance as well.

Both the poultry and egg sectors continue to experience strong competition from Northern Ireland. I am concerned at our apparent inability to compete effectively with Northern produce, although I appreciate that this may not be entirely due to factors within our control. Our first priority in any case must be to recover lost market shares in the domestic area. This is the only certain way forward although we must also be on the lookout for new markets. However, we will not be able to accomplish these aims without improved presentation and more vigorous marketing.

Many of the problems arising must be seen in an EEC context. More orderly marketing would be of immense value and I will, therefore, continue to press in Brussels for the early establishment of an intra-professional body for the egg sector.

I might add that our ability to export and develop in the poultry industry is shown by the duck sector where almost 90 per cent of the output is exported and further expansion is contemplated. This is most heartening. The future also looks bright for the turkey sector with further concentration on added-value products.

About two-thirds of the total acreage under cereals is now accounted for by feeding barley. Over the past couple of years there has been a large swing from spring to winter wheat with the result that winter wheat now represents about 75 per cent of the wheat crop. In this connection, I would like to see the flour millers and the grain growers getting together to ensure that as much Irish breadmaking wheat as possible will be used by the flour milling industry in the future.

Surveys carried out by my Department have shown that, mainly because of a shortage of grain drying equipment, delays can occur at some intake points at harvest time. With a view to improving this situation a sum of £100,000 is provided under subhead M.5 towards the cost of grain drying and storage projects. This funding will enable approved applicants to apply for a FEOGA grant.

In the current marketing year the Department took some 8,000 tonnes of barley into intervention. Intervention in cereals on this scale is a new development here and it remains to be seen whether the trend will continue in the future. All of the barley has since been sold.

The commercial horticultural sector makes a valuable contribution to overall agricultural output. Many will be surprised to learn that the output of this sector had a farm gate value of £57 million in 1981. In general, the quality of our fruit and vegetables has improved appreciably. Energy costs have been a serious problem here and a sum of £200,000 has been allocated in the Budget to relieve the commercial horticultural sector, including mushroom growers. The Finance Bill makes provision for this relief in the form of a remission of excise duty on fuel oil.

Aid for the development of horticultural production units continues to be covered by the farm modernisation scheme. Specific items of aid to horticulture amounting to £30,000 are, however, provided for under subhead D.4 and M.7 — the former for the promotion of marketing, and the later for aid towards the formation and operation costs of producer organisations.

The acreage of main crop potatoes declined by approximately 15 per cent in 1981 — 34,000 hectares compared with 40,400. As a result there was a shortfall in home-produced supplies, which was made up by imports from other member states, mainly the Netherlands and the UK. The acreage this year is estimated to be up on 1981 by approximately 15 per cent and, given reasonable yields, there should be much less need for imported supplies.

As a consumer I must say that the quality of Irish potatoes seems to have deteriorated over the years. It may be that quality is being sacrificed to yield but, whatever the reason, it is becoming increasingly difficult to get really good potatoes. This is one area of production where producers can do much for themselves by improving the quality and presentation of their product. As the current year has shown, competition from imports is now very real. The one sure way of beating that competition is to have a better home-grown product and market it efficiently.

Sugar production in the past season was about 167,000 tonnes which, although up on the previous season, was nevertheless disappointing in that it failed again to fill our A quota of 182,000 tonnes. I am hopeful that this year's production will show an increase although I understand that the full area offered for contract by the Sugar Company has not been taken up. Deputies will be now have seen the Sugar Manufacture (Amendment) Bill, 1982 which provides for an increase in the authorised capital of the company. The Second Stage of the Bill will be moved next week and it will then be possible to debate the sugar industry in more detail.

A major provision in the Estimate is that under Subhead E.1 for the consumer subsidies on milk and butter. These subsidies amount to about 4p per pint on milk in the Dublin area and 4½ per pint elsewhere and 35p per lb. on butter. They have a significant impact on household expenditure on food, particularly by large families, and at the same time they assist the market for dairy produce.

A matter of concern to me is the smuggling of subsidised butter to Northern Ireland, which is costing the Exchequer a substantial sum. The difference in the retail price of about 30p per lb. between here and the North provides a strong incentive to move butter over the Border. I am taking steps towards reducing the subsidy leakage by means of an order limiting to 10 lb. or 4.5 kilogrammes the amount of butter which may be exported in a traveller's personal baggage.

As Deputies are aware, the farm modernisation scheme is now the framework for State aid for on-farm investment. Apart from field drainage in western countries, to which I shall refer later, the scheme covers virtually every type of capital investment by the farmer — land improvement, farm buildings, farm roadways, farm water supplies, and so on. For 1982 a sum of £33 million is provided for the scheme under Subhead M.1. The number of farmers now participating in the scheme is about 102,000, which is indicative of a high level of farmer confidence in the scheme and the willingness of farmers, despite the difficult financial climate, to continue to invest in the development of their farms. Over the eight years of its operation total investment under the scheme has been of the order of £590 million and grant aid from the Exchequer and the EEC has totalled almost £200 million. Despite this high level of investment I would like to see more farmers undertaking systematic development programmes and availing more fully of the advisory services. I particularly have in mind farmers in the small and medium-sized range.

During 1981 the Council of Ministers made certain amendments to the Directive under which the scheme operates. Of particular significance was a decision to allow greater flexibility for the participation of farmers in the development category.

In the past year considerable progress has been made under the western drainage scheme. This scheme came into operation in 1979 and was extended in July 1981. The response to it has exceeded all expectations, over 40,000 applications having been received. So far almost 21,000 approvals have been issued, covering 114,000 hectares at an estimated cost of £60 million. A sum of £7 million is included under subhead M.1 to cover expenditure on this scheme in the current year.

The programme for western development, for which £7 million is provided under subhead M.1, provides for special measures designed to stimulate the development of agriculture in the West of Ireland. The aid measures under the programme include a wide range of development measures, including infrastructural improvements such as roads, water supplies and electricity, land improvement and farm improvement as well as forestry development and aids for agriculture based industries. So far as my Department are concerned 5,400 applications for land improvement schemes have been received.

In August 1981 under the previous Government certain modifications in the levels of grant aid available under the farm modernisation scheme, the western drainage scheme and the programme for western development were introduced. In the recent budget the grant rates were restored to their former levels and a provision of £4 million will be included in a Supplementary Estimate for this purpose.

Under subhead M.2, which covers headage payments in the disadvantaged areas, the original provision of £36.9 milion will be increased by £0.4 million, in a Supplementary Estimate. This extra provision follows from the budget and is in accordance with the Government's pre-election commitment to break the linkage between cattle and sheep schemes introduced by the previous Government. For 1982 an applicant can be paid on up to 30 livestock units for cattle and also on up to 200 ewes for sheep. This should be of particular benefit to those progressive farmers in the west who make the most of their scarce resources by engaging in mixed grazing systems.

For the 1982 headage schemes, the off-farm income limit has been raised from £4,750 to £5,415. Also, and this was decided on by the previous Government, the spouse's income will be taken into account in calculating the applicant's income outside the farm. The decision to include the spouse's income enables the available financial resources to be calculated on those more dependent on farming. I should point out that an income restriction is laid down by the Commission under the EEC suckler cow scheme, the stipulation being that to qualify farmers must earn at least 50 per cent of their income from farming.

There are, however, no income restrictions for the £70 national calved heifer subsidy or the £22 calf premium. A farmer in the disadvantaged areas can now receive under the various cattle headage schemes grants of up to £148 for an additional calved heifer plus calf while a farmer outside those areas can get £116. A sum of almost £24½ million is being provided under subheads C.2, C.3 and C.5 for the disease eradication programmes.

Progress under the brucellosis eradication scheme continues to be highly satisfactory and the overall herd incidence is now down to 1 per cent. There appears to be every prospect that the disease may be eradicated completely within the next five years.

On the bovine tuberculosis side, however, the position continues to be less satisfactory. The 1981-82 round of testing disclosed a disease incidence rate of 2.76 per cent of herds tested, as compared with 2.12 per cent in the previous year. It would be wrong to judge progress under the scheme on the basis of these figures alone, but clearly the situation must be viewed with some concern. At present, all aspects of the bovine TB scheme, including grants and hardship arrangements, are being reviewed and certain changes in procedures and in general emphasis can be expected to result from this exercise.

Included in the Appropriations-in-Aid are receipts from the EEC arising out of our programme for accelerated eradication of bovine TB and brucellosis. The three-year acceleration plans have now expired. The basic EEC Directive dealing with the eradication of these diseases has, however, been extended for two further years and we will, therefore, be able to continue the acceleration process within the terms of the Directive for a further period. In this connection we have to submit a new accelerated eradication programme to the EEC Commission within the next month or six weeks, and it is against this background that the comprehensive review to which I referred is being carried out.

Another disease to which I would like to refer is rabies. With its spread westward across the Continent of Europe, the risk that the disease may reach this country through a smuggled dog or cat or other animal increased. All air and shipping companies, harbour authorities, travel agencies, home and continental yachting clubs etc., have been alerted to the danger of an illegal importation. Continuing publicity in the press, on radio and on television will emphasise the risk to human and animal health that could arise from any evasion of my Department's import requirements.

An Chomhairle Oiliúna Talmhaiochta (ACOT) is the national body set up to provide agricultural advisory, education and training services. A sum of £14.526 million for the general purposes of ACOT is provided under subhead B.15 together with £1.6 million for capital purposes under subhead B.16. In addition ACOT will be receiving about £4.15 million from the local rates.

ACOT is responsible for the implementation of that part of the Programme for Western Development relating to the provision of new agricultural advisory and training facilities. This involves mainly the construction of 22 new agricultural training centres, the provision of additional student places at existing residential colleges, and the establishment of an Advisory Resource Centre at Athenry as a training centre for agricultural advisors. A FEOGA refund of 50 per cent will be made in respect of eligible costs incurred under the programme. The grant-in-aid for capital purposes include a provision towards the implementation of these projects.

Some of their former functions continue to be performed by the county committees of agriculture, which now include representatives of the voluntary agricultural organisations active in each county. These include the operation of a number of livestock premium and other agricultural schemes at county level. In addition, the committees prepare annual advisory and training programmes for the county and monitor the implementation of these programmes by ACOT. Provision is made under subhead B.6 for £300,000 in grants to the committees to supplement their income from rates contributions.

Under subhead B.3 a sum of £13.105 million is being provided for An Foras Talúntais this year. An Foras also obtain financial contributions from various sectors of the agricultural industry, and these constitute a most practical and tangible recognition of the valuable work performed by An Foras for Irish agriculture.

A provision of over £7.4 million is made under subhead B.1 for grants to the University Colleges for the purpose of maintaining the faculties of General Agriculture and Veterinary Medicine at UCD and the faculty of Dairy Science at UCC. These grants include capital provisions in respect of the final accounts for the new Agriculture building at UCD and the new Science building at UCC. Both buildings are now in use.

The grant-in-aid to Bord na gCapall under subhead J. is £950,000 as compared with £1,028,000 in 1981. The reduction resulted from a review of the activities of Bord na gCapall carried out by officials of my Department last year. They suggested that the board should explore possible alternative sources of income and that some of the schemes and other expenditure had limited effects and should be curtailed. The board have in fact identified areas for action more or less in line with the suggestions.

Since last autumn a series of measures has been introduced to assist farmers in difficulties in meeting interest payments on their borrowings. Firstly, an interest subsidy scheme partially financed by the EEC was introduced on 1 September last providing a subsidy of 5 per cent per annum for two years on borrowings for on-farm investment by development farmers under the farm modernisation scheme. Almost 8,000 farmers have applied to participate in the scheme and £4 million is provided under subhead M.1 for it.

A somewhat similar 5 per cent interest subsidy scheme, which is nationally financed, was introduced in 1 December to benefit non-development farmers. Over 4,500 farmers have applied under this scheme, and a sum of £5 million is provided for it under subhead F.3.

It was recognised that a hard core of potentially viable farmers are experiencing serious financial difficulties and that they would require assistance over and above that provided in these 5 per cent subsidy schemes if they were to regain viability. A reduced interest subsidy scheme for farmers in severe financial difficulty was accordingly introduced on 1 April. The scheme provides an interest subsidy of up to 8¾ per cent for three years on loans arranged before the end of 1980 to finance farm-related investment. The scheme is being operated in conjunction with the associated banks and the Agricultural Credit Corporation, who are bearing part of the cost. Some of the Exchequer cost will be met by means of taxation relief, but some will be in the form of direct cash payments to the financial institutions concerned. A sum of £1.5 million is provided for this purpose in a Supplementary Estimate.

Other schemes involving State guarantees on loans for agricultural purposes which are administered by the banks and the ACC are being continued. A sum of £1 million is provided under subhead F.2 to meet the exchange risk of the lending institutions in respect of low interest loans financed from foreign currencies. Under subhead F.1 provision of over £453,000 is made to assist certain advances made by the ACC to agriculture-based industries. On top of this £186,000 is provided in a Supplementary Estimate in respect of a subvention to the ACC to enable mitigation of the cost of implementing the return to work settlement at the Clover Meats Waterford plant earlier this year.

Expenses and losses in connection with market intervention are expected to amount to some £34.6 million and this is provided under subheads M.3 and M.4. These expenses cover such matters as storage, de-boning and transport, as well as interest on the capital borrowings used for the purpose of the intervention products. Intervention activities are carried out on behalf of the EEC and the expenses incurred are recouped from FEOGA by way of allowances based on average costs throughout the Community. These recoupments are estimated at over £22 million as shown under subhead N.15.

The net difference of 12½ million mainly reflects the relatively high interest charges here, compared with the average level allowed by FEOGA. My Department have to provide capital totalling about £100 million for intervention purchases and, while the capital losses on disposal are met by FEOGA, the interest allowed to us falls appreciably short of the actual cost of borrowing. The average rate allowed by FEOGA is only 9 per cent whereas my Department are paying 19.25 per cent for money at present. This difference represents about £10 million and accounts for the bulk of the net expenditure on intervention. Of course, the intervention system is a key element in the EEC price support arrangements and the net cost of it to us has to be looked at against the background of the very considerable benefits accruing to us from the whole operation of the system.

A provision of £19 million is made under subhead M.9 in respect of expenditure under the EEC Programme of Special Measures for Ireland. These measures which include subsidies on silage, A.I. and ground limestone, qualify for a 50 per cent recoupment from FEOGA. Under subhead D.5 provision is being made for winter fodder schemes which are financed in full by the Exchequer. Both of these series of measures were designed to help farmers to meet the effects of the recession and to stimulate the expansion of agricultural production.

To meet our contributions to FAO and certain other international organisations as well as to finance certain aid measures for developing countries, some £2.3 million is being provided under subhead K. This is an increase of almost £650,000 on the 1981 figure. Contributions are also being maintained to a number of Irish agricultural organisations such as the ICOS, ICA, Macra na Feirme, Muintir na Tire, etc. These appear under the B group of subheads.

The balance of the expenditure provided for in the Estimate relates mainly to administrative costs and a number of smaller ongoing schemes and services. The Department of Agriculture are one of the larger Departments of State, with some 60 per cent of the total staff serving outside the Dublin area. While the staff pay and travelling on the Agriculture Vote amounts to about £42 million a further £3½ million will come from Vote 51. This has to be seen in the context of the wide range of services that have to be administered, including a very high level of on-farm and local inspections. In fact, the cost of salaries, wages and travelling of my Department last year represented about 6 per cent of the national and EEC funds handled.

I mentioned earlier that receipts are up by £19 million. This arises mainly from increased EEC recoupments relating to the accelerated eradication of bovine diseases — subheads N.8 and N.9 — the farm modernisation scheme — subhead N.13 — the disadvantaged areas schemes — subhead N.14 — and the Programme of Special Measures for Ireland — subhead N.18. The fees payable to my Department for services have been examined in detail and have been updated in a number of cases. The resulting additional receipts are reflected under subheads N.19, N.20 and N.21.

I should now like to deal with the Estimate for Lands. The gross Estimate is just over £17.3 million, an increase of some £2.5 million on last year's provision. The additional amount required covers such items as increases in wages and salaries under subhead A, in travelling expenses under subhead B and in Post Office charges under subhead C, as well as increased statutory contributions towards the revision of annuities under subhead E.

However, the greatest single increase, almost £1 million arises from the deficiency in income from untenanted land under subhead G. This subhead is a contingency provision to meet the situation where the income from the letting of lands held by the Land Commission while awaiting division and allocation is insufficient to meet outgoings. The outgoings include servicing of the bonds issued for the purchase of lands, rates, wages of herds and caretakers, and such items as temporary fencing to facilitate lettings. Receipts from lettings are also supplied towards meeting part of any losses incurred on the resale of lands at below cost. Up to 1979 receipts from lettings of lands on hands were not more than sufficient to meet all outgoings but since then there has been a deficit each year, which has had to be made good from subhead G.

The fall in the level of receipts is attributable to the difficult conditions in agriculture generally which have affected the level of rents obtainable, to the fact that estates exceeding 40 hectares are now let by private treaty to facilitate smallholders who could not be assured of securing a letting if the public auction procedure were adopted, and to the fact that the burden of financing resale losses over many years has now to be borne by a reduced area of lands on hands. The rents now being obtained average £86 per hectare for grazing and £136 for tillage. These rates are well below what could be obtained two or three years ago. At present, the Land Commission have on hands some 19,400 hectares suitable for letting. For some time past, special emphasis has been placed on disposing rapidly of the lands on hands. As a result, the area at present held by the Land Commission is below what was normal a few years ago.

As Deputies are aware, the land settlement programme is financed primarily by means of land bonds. The Land Commission are required by law to pay market value for land acquired compulsorily. At the same time, the interest rate on the land bonds must be such as will ensure that they will remain at or near par for a reasonable time. In turn, the amount of the annuity which an allottee should pay is determined by the cost price of the land and the interest rate on the bonds issued to pay for it. Take, for example, an acre costing £1,200. That land will be paid for at present in 18¼ per cent land bonds and an annual sum of £222 will be required to pay the interest to the bondholder and provide a sinking fund for the eventual redemption of the bonds. To meet this, the allottee should pay an annuity of £222 for the acre of land. Anything less than that figure would constitute a loss that would have to be covered by taxation. In practice, in order to dispose of lands on hands, the Land Commission are now obliged to offer much of it to allottees at annuities very much below the cost level. In this connection, it is important to note that when lands are sold below cost by the Land Commission, the loss is not a once-off one. The deficit must be made good by the Exchequer during the full period the annuity has to run. At present, this is 24 years. Clearly there is a limit to the extent to which the taxpayer can be expected to subsidise land purchase operations by the Land Commission when heavy losses are being incurred on the resale of the land.

Before concluding, I would like to say a few words in regard to future land policy which I consider has a major role to play in the further development of agriculture. It is essential to devise a system whereby as much as possible of the country's agricultural land can be channelled to progressive small to medium farmers who are making the best possible use of their existing holdings and to young persons with acceptable agricultural experience and education. There is a limit to what the State can do through the acquisition and division programme of the Land Commission and, as I have explained, such Land Commission operations can involve costs for the taxpayers. Any new measures should, I suggest, concentrate on providing the right environment within which deserving smallholders and committed young landless persons are not disadvantaged in the land market in procuring the land they need. Much work on a new land policy has been done by the last Fianna Fáil administration and a White Paper on the subject was issued in December 1980. My Minister of State, Deputy Lorcan Allen, and I have been carrying out a thorough examination of the whole question of land policy, and proposals are at present being prepared for consideration by the Government.

A Supplementary Estimate for Agriculture has now been introduced and at the end of this debate I shall be moving the formal motion for it. In the course of my speech I have already referred to all the expenditure items provided for in the Supplementary Estimate. That Estimate also takes account of savings totalling some £840,000 on subheads E.2 and D.5. The former provided for a grant of £200,000 to the existing statutory Pigs and Bacon Commission. As it is envisaged that that body will now be ceasing operations, the particular expenditure provided for will not arise. Of course, a separate winding-up provision of £5.6 million is being made for the commission under subhead E.3. The saving of £640,000 under subhead D.5 relates to the winter fodder schemes which operated last year. Final payments under these schemes are now being made and the total amount of the claims received by my Department fall £640,000 short of the provision.

The Estimates which we are discussing relate to the country's biggest industry, and I use the word "industry" advisedly as being appropriate in this context. They cover a large and varied range of schemes and services, the impact of which is of vital importance not only to the farming community but also to the national economy. Agriculture has encountered considerable difficulties over the past few years but the prospects are now beginning to look brighter than they have been for some time. The Government's aim is to provide the conditions and incentives that will enable and encourage farmers to improve their productivity and increase production and that will help to bring about a thriving and prosperous agricultural industry. The funds now being sought will contribute to the achievement of this aim, and I confidently recommended the Estimates to the House.

I wonder if I might ask at the beginning if you would be prepared to allow me a little latitude in regard to time. We were presented with the Supplementary Estimate late last night and we have not had time to discuss the matter with the Whips. I am anxious that we would take the Supplementary Estimate because if it is not taken as quickly as possible a number of schemes might well be delayed.

I appreciate that the Deputy has a wide field to cover. I wonder if you appreciate that you are at liberty to speak for one and a half hours. Although that is your position under Standing Orders, there has been an understanding among Deputies in respect of these Estimates, bearing in mind that many Deputies might be offering, that Deputies would not use the full time to which they are entitled. You are entitled to speak for an hour and a half from now.

I should not like to take time from other Deputies. A number of Deputies on this side of the House wish to contribute, but I hope to have enough time to deal with all the items included in the Supplementary Estimate which need a little more examination than the Minister has given to them.

In relation to the general income of farmers, the Minister very briefly viewed the situation as it has developed in the last two years. He said that real incomes in farming dropped somewhat in 1981, by about 2 per cent in real terms. What he did not say is that 1981 was the third year in succession when real incomes in farming dropped, that the misfortune was a good deal less in 1981 than in the two previous years. We are talking about an industry, as the Minister called it, which for three years in a row has suffered a very substantial decline in real incomes. This is an aspect that we must highlight here because it is of importance not only to farmers, though they are the people directly and immediately affected, but to a great many others, for some of the reasons the Minister hinted at in his closing words.

In addition to the drop in real incomes in farming — the causes of that drop have been decreases in production, notably beef and milk; the production decline was not very large, but a decline nevertheless — we have had a decline in the availability of raw materials, and this has had its effects on employment in our food processing industry. That has been evident in many parts of the country. In my constituency one major meat plant has been closed for seven weeks and two other major meat plants have been on short time for a considerable period. In Deputy Hegarty's constituency another meat plant has been closed for seven weeks.

I do not say that all of this was due only to the reduction in our total cattle herd, though there is no doubt that the reduction in our total cattle herd played a big part in bringing about the circumstances in which that happened. The very serious situation in agriculture that we have experienced in the last three years has not been affecting only farmers. It has affected a much wider group, those who work in the food industry and in industries supplying farm machinery. That industry is in the doldrums throughout the country. Merchants and co-ops who normally had the important business of supplying farmers have found that their turnover has gone down because the level of demand for their products has gone down. They have been working on smaller throughputs and smaller profit margins and employment in those industries has been under pressure.

The difficulties we have in regard to agriculture represent wider problems for our economy and society. In the House we should make that clear. We should also make it clear that measures to get over the difficulties we have in agriculture are ones which have much wider implications and, if successful, will mean wider benefits throughout society and the economy than simply in relation to agriculture. It is important that those of us who are called upon to debate these issues and examine these matters should do so in a comprehensive way. When we make our statements and judgments on the measures put before us we should give the full picture and the full implications of what we are doing so that the ordinary people who put us here when they see what we are doing in regard to agriculture will realise that this is not another case, as so many seem to feel, where the farmers are getting something while other people are not. What we are concerned with is improving the health of a basic sector in our economy in order to get an improvement in farm incomes, to improve the situation of farming families but also in order to increase and improve the contribution that agriculture can make to off-farm employment and employment in towns and cities.

As the Minister stated, this is a basic industry. With that in mind we have to approach the expenditure set out in this Estimate in a way which is designed to ensure that we all get the best possible value for money spent, that our farmers get value for the expenditure and that the general public get value because we are talking about substantial sums of money. The gross Estimate for this year, before the Supplementary Estimate is included, is £344.7 million. If one deducts receipts of £65.7 million from EEC funds and £13.7 million from other sources one is left with a net Estimate of £265 million. The expenditure of those amounts of money must be carefully handled. If any of it is being misdirected there will be a lack of return to our farming community and the community as a whole. It is part of our job in these debates to examine the type of value we are getting for this expenditure.

Discussing this Estimate from that point of view is something which I do not have any difficulty doing, having prepared it in the first place and having, during the course of its preparation, had those considerations very much in mind. I should like to make the point that the development of spending in agriculture during the period of office of the last Government certainly showed a concern for making a positive contribution to the development of agriculture. On taking office last year one of the first things we did was to introduce into the House a Supplementary Estimate for £35 million. That was designed purely and simply to cover the shortfall in the Estimate which had been prepared by the previous Fianna Fáil Government earlier that year. In other words, we introduced a Supplementary Estimate of £35 million to make sure that the measures the previous Fianna Fáil Government said they would carry out could be financed because the original Estimate did not provide sufficient funds to finance them. Later in the year we introduced a second Supplementary Estimate of £37 million to provide for a number of new schemes and the improvement of existing schemes in order to begin to make a real contribution to getting the process of development going again in agriculture, to getting output moving up again and making a reasonable contribution to the serious income situation which we then found.

During that period we felt obliged and happy to make an extra £72 million available to maintain and improve the range of services and facilities available to farmers. That was in keeping with our firm commitment to improving the situation for farmers and those in the agricultural industry generally. In preparing the Estimate for this year we were faced with the same choices. Before taking account of the Supplementary Estimate, this year's gross Estimate shows an increase of £53½ million on the figure for the previous year and this year's net Estimate shows an increase of £34½ million on the previous year. In drawing up that Estimate we were conscious of the fact that this extra provision of funds was vital in order to allow us keep the ground we had gained during our period in office and, if possible, to regain some ground on the farm income front but particularly to regain some ground in terms of the ability of the farming sector to expand production, the supplies of raw materials to the processing industry and to provide some hope for maintaining employment in that industry. We wanted to increase the contribution from agriculture to the general economic life of the country.

The Estimate involving those increases in expenditure was built on a number of factors which included reviews of a number of important policy areas and consideration of a number of new initiatives which we had taken up and commenced negotiations on at EEC level. One of the areas where we initiated a review of policy — it is still going on — was in the area of disease eradication, a most important area if we are really concerned with building up our livestock herds, our level of livestock production and the profitability of livestock production. There are two major areas involved here. The first one is brucellosis eradication. In that area we can be confident that we are making measurable progress. The incidence of the disease is declining. It will be generally agreed that we know broadly how to deal with it. We are able to master the development of that disease to the point where the incidence is declining. I do not think any of us will ever be happy that we are making progress fast enough but the record of what we have been doing in that area is good. We need to remain vigilant even when we get the disease down almost to the unavoidable minimal level. At least as far as brucellosis eradication is concerned we know where we are going and we are getting there at a reasonable pace. We can feel happy that, broadly speaking, we have the system more or less right in relation to that disease.

The situation is very different in regard to TB eradication which is becoming, for many reasons which I will go into later, the scourge of the farming population. It is an area where there is a good deal of frustration and fear among the farming population which we must deal with if we are to make solid progress in eradicating this disease. The evidence we have is that the incidence of the disease is on the increase. The Minister has pointed to that fact. We must ask ourselves why. It is clear we need some modifications in our approach to the eradication of this disease. It is not very easy to decide just what they should be. There is no-one who would claim he has the single answer to deal with this problem. In our review of the scheme, we must be open to the views and fears expressed by people because this clearly has an influence on the fact that the incidence of the disease is increasing.

We do not have to travel very far around the country to hear it being said that farmers are afraid to test. We do not have to go very far to meet people who are in a considerable state of agitation when they know that a test is due and more so when they are awaiting the results of a test. We can understand that situation and the worry and fear on the part of many farmers when we look at the economic background to their situation. Herds are locked up and there is a serious economic difficulty for those herd owners. People have suffered the loss of their best cattle. Reactors have to be sold for a good deal less than the farmers would have expected to get for them. If times were reasonably normal and there was buoyancy, it would not be too difficult to absorb this kind of problem but after three years of declining real incomes, it is difficult for people to absorb this kind of loss which results from a breakdown on a test. We must understand that and give weight to it. It is becoming increasingly relevant to the way the farming population look at disease control.

What I am concerned to do is point out the way people feel about this problem and the fear they have about it. There is no doubt that even those people who feel the most trepidation at the prospect of having a test carried out on their herd when they are not sure how many animals will go down, want to see progress made in the eradication of the disease. No farmer wants to see a disease of this kind spreading through herds. It is difficult to expect someone whose income is down and who has been hit for three years in a row with falling income, to take a calm, detached, scientific view of disease eradication when it means he will lose a number of cattle and be paid an amount considerably less than their value for them.

There are other elements in the present situation which are making it difficult to make the kind of progress we all wish to see. I have been considering a number of changes we might make in the eradication scheme which would bring about some improvements. These have been discussed at length with the veterinary profession. I am sure the Minister is familiar with the ideas and reports which have come forward as to how we might go about improving the eradication programme. Over the last few weeks, I have heard about differences between the Department and the veterinary profession on this which seem to be holding up agreement. Having informed myself about this. I came to the conclusion that the differences in question are not so much fundamental differences in approach but differences of degree. There may be differences in timing. This is regrettable. We seem to be held up by the existence of minor differences and I ask the Minister to seriously consider becoming involved in this and clearing up the differences between the two approaches, bringing the two sides together on the considerable areas on which they agree and resolving any differences between them on timing.

The Minister's approach and that of the Department is that we must have a concentrated effort of special testing, check testing and blitzing in the black areas. We all know, to our cost, where the black areas are. They are well mapped. There is general agreement that we need an intensive programme of testing in these areas to define where the disease is, whether it is moving in or out and to make sure that we know where the reservoirs of the disease are so that we can act accordingly and prevent it spreading on a large scale to other areas. It is also the general intention that we must continue with round testing. There is no dispute about that. There seem to be differences of opinion about how much weight to put on special testing and when to start another series of round testing. That is an area of difference where the Minister should get the two sides together and make a decision. The Minister has to carry the can and is the one to whom people will turn for resolution of these problems. The Minister is the person who should weigh the importance of such differences of opinion against the real urgency and fears felt by farmers to get rid of the disease.

I ask the Minister to clear up this problem because it is holding us up unnecessarily. There are differences of degree rather than any fundamental difference in approach. At this stage, it might be mischievous to go any further into these differences

Thank you.

We must try to get over these differences. It is the Minister's job to sort it out and it can be done. The other aspect of the problem is the concern among farmers about the disease problem that they fear they may have to face. Expenditure on disease eradication is a matter to which a good deal of attention has been given in the press in recent months. I shall not comment on the brucellosis scheme today because so far as I am concerned it is a non-issue. We are making good progress in that regard. We are getting value for our money and the incidence of the disease is lessening.

The question of the eradication of TB is different. The estimate in that area this year is just more than £13 million of which £3.3 million will be for reactor compensation. Of the total of £10.2 million for brucellosis eradication, £4,500,000 is for reactor compensation. For the two, we have a figure of about £7.8 million in respect of reactor compensation. That covers the extra payment to farmers who have diseased animals that are eligible for this compensation and which must be sold out from the herds, their value in the meat factories being less than the value of normal healthy animals. It is the loss that will be involved notwithstanding the payment of compensation that is causing the big economic problem. I am asking the Minister to consider increasing the level of the reactor payments.

If we are to make improvements in the disease eradication scheme, we must make the various improvements part of one operation. We have a fairly clear idea of the improvements we can make in our testing procedures and to that we must add an improvement in the level of compensation. Such an improvement is justified in the context of the economic difficulties we are experiencing. To put a figure on it, an increase of £50 in the rate of reactor compensation would, on the present estimate of the number of animals that will come into the reactor category, cost in the region of £2,500,000. In present circumstances that sort of money would be very welcome in so far as those people who will have reactor animals in their herds this year are concerned. It would represent an increase of almost one-third in the total amount of the compensation they would get otherwise. It will be justifiable also since an increase of this kind would have the effect at least of allaying some of the fears farmers have in relation to testing and it could well make them less reluctant to be fully involved in the testing procedure.

We need to know where the disease is. We need to have information on every herd and to know what is the level of the disease in herds throughout the country. If we do not have this information, if there is any gap in the system, we will be left in the position of leaving reservoirs of disease that will cause breakouts just when we think we are making progress elsewhere. We all know that cattle are being moved though they have not been tested. Consequently, there are reservoirs of disease. We know, too, that there are herds that are not complete when being presented for the round test. At least, there is a fair presumption that all the cattle that should be there then are not there. I am not laying the blame anywhere for this situation but we must at least understand the factors that lead to it. If we understand these factors we must take whatever measures we can to overcome the problem. An increase in the reactor compensation would go a long way towards overcoming some of those problems particularly if we combine such increase with the other improvements that I have referred to in the area of testing.

Another aspect that I would ask the Minister to reconsider is the operation of the hardship fund. None of us has all the answers in relation to the disease problem but earlier this year I took a number of measures aimed at improving the operation of the hardship fund. For example, we increased the extra grant per qualifying animal by £20 so that it is now £100. In addition, we increased the maximum payment for herd owners from £2,000 to £2,500 and we introduced a special maximum payment of £6,000 to meet cases where it appeared that the best way of dealing with the problem was to depopulate the herd totally. Some farmers have lost less as a result of these modifications than would have been the case otherwise.

There are other areas, though, that we need to reconsider. There is a problem in respect of cattle which may qualify under the hardship fund and there is a part of the fund scheme whereby the judgement of eligibility for the fund is based on the total herd and then the basis for the payment is on only part of the herd because of the exclusion of a certain number of animals on the grounds that they are ineligible. This presents a particular problem in that if animals kill out at more than 100 kilos they are not eligible under this fund. Again, because of the serious economic difficulties we are experiencing, that provision in itself is causing hardship and results in the hardship fund not covering a substantial part of the hardship involved. I am asking the Minister to consider increasing the weight factor in that case, perhaps to 200 kilos. In this way many of the younger animals on farms in all parts of the country, but particularly in the west, which are now excluded from the fund, would be included.

In that connection, too, we might review the operation of the fund and ask ourselves whether perhaps it would be worthwhile to think in terms of loosening the terms of the operation of the fund, of leaving a great deal of discreation to the local veterinary officer who knows the area, the herd and the farmers, to judge what is the degree of urgency and to let him make up his mind as to whether there is real hardship. Then, if there is, we should give the veterinary officer the leeway for meeting that hardship. That is an area that we might review in order to make the scheme what it is intended to be, that is, a hardship fund designed to deal with cases in which disease incidence causes particularly serious hardship.

In this connection we should look at what happens to diseased animals when they are identified. Under our present system the herd owner has 30 days in which to dispose of the reactor animals. I suppose many of us would feel it is reasonable to give him time to make arrangements to have the animal taken off his farm into a factory and slaughtered. It has been said to me that by comparison with the situation that exists in other countries it is a relatively short period in which to allow the farmer to get rid of a diseased animal. On the other hand, the incidence of TB in this country is high compared with other countries and we must necessarily have a more stringent approach to it than other countries have. We must review the level of our testing procedures and compensation. We should review also the arrangments under which we allow farmers to get rid of diseased cattle because the sooner we get them off the farms the less damage they do to the farm and to neighbouring farms. When we are reviewing the system we should look at the possibility of making a small premium available for those who get rid of their animals faster than the regulations allow them to do so.

A further area which gives rise to some concern is the fact that we are never very sure what the situation is in terms of disease of cattle killed for domestic consumption. They are not necessarily tested before movement and no post mortem examination is carried out on them in the slaughter premises. I do not know to what extent that is a problem, but if there is a significant incidence of disease in the herds from which those cattle are drawn it is possible that there is an amount of disease there that we are not identifying and tracking down. I do not know how we should deal with that problem. There is a related problem which I will come to later, but it seems that we need to be conscious of the fact that there is an area of possible disease and infection that is not being tracked down or identified. I am not trying to throw any scares into anybody in saying these things. I am concerned to look at the ways we have at our disposal for identifying the disease and therefore getting rid of it.

The related problem that I mentioned is a more general one of health control and inspection of the various local centres where cattle, pigs and sheep are killed for local consumption. I ask the Minister to have a look at this. There is a tangle of by-laws, local regulations and national regulations and I took up this matter because it seems to be one where we could do with some tidying up——

I agree with the Deputy.

——with all due respect to the Departments concerned. The Department of the Environment are involved, the Department of Agriculture are involved and I have a suspicion that some other Department might be marginally involved. I did not have time to make as much progress in that as I would have liked but I ask the Minister to look at this problem. There is a difficulty that can be overcome. My view of the matter, and I think the Minister would agree, is that if we are to have proper health control and inspection in these premises the Department who can do it best are the Department of Agriculture because they have experience of operating all kinds of very stringent regulations in the places for which they are currently responsible.

Another area covered in the Estimates related to dealing with the economic problems is the various interest subsidies that are in operation or are to come into operation, namely the 5 per cent interest subsidy, the EEC interest subsidy and the rescue package as we call it, the 8.75 per cent measure to which the Minister has referred. It took some time to get agreement on that rescue package scheme and it was difficult enough to work out. One of the provisions included in the scheme was that anybody who applied for aid under the scheme should first have used up any benefits to which he was entitled under either the national 5 per cent scheme or the EEC 5 per cent scheme. It seems that there is a problem in putting those two together. I and a number of my colleagues have come across cases where it has turned out to be difficult to establish an applicant's entitlement under the package because he has not been told by the Department of Agriculture what his entitlement under the 5 per cent interest scheme is and that is holding up the processing of application for the rescue scheme in a number of cases. I do not know why. I am asking the Minister to look into this to ensure that where this is a factor — and it will be a factor in a number of cases of people who apply for this — it will be sorted out quickly so that the establishment of an applicant's right to assistance under the 5 per cent scheme will not create an obstacle to establishing his entitlement to participation in the rescue package.

In this connection the chairman of the ACC in his annual report had a word to say about this scheme. He spoke about the unavoidable delay in the introduction of the scheme. We finally got agreement on that scheme in January. The Minister said that it was to be introduced by April. He has found that he has had to postpone the final date for the receipt of applications. Originally it was to have been 1 June and now it is 30 June. Mind you, the Minister got it just a couple of weeks before I did, but I had intended at the time to ask the Minister to extend for a month rather than for the fortnight which he did this day last week. I ask him to look into that and to make sure that we have a reasonable degree of confidence that the kind of advice that farmers get about their eligibility for the scheme is good advice.

My colleagues and I have come across a number of cases where farmers went to their bank manager or ACC manager to fill in the form and were told that they were not eligible for participation in the scheme and afterwards they called to me about it and I found that some of them were eligible. I wonder where the breakdown in communications has been. I ask the Minister to make sure that whatever guidelines are going out from the Department will properly reflect the terms of the scheme which I negotiated and brought in, and the conditions of entitlement of farmers to eligibility under that scheme. It is breaking down in areas and, if it breaks down, it will be more than a pity; it will be an injustice, because that scheme is designed to have a particular effect and to help people out of very serious financial problems.

When the Minister is replying I hope he will explain to us — and I have asked him about this already on a number of occasions; I see it is in the Supplementary Estimate — why he is providing £1½ million for the operation of this scheme this year. In our budget figures for 27 January we provided £4 million to cover the cost of the scheme this year, £4 million which we believed would be needed and would be called on by the financial institutions as the cash part of the cost of operating the scheme this year. I asked the Minister on a number of occasions to explain this difference, and so far he has not seen fit to do so. He is doing himself a disfavour.

It is only bookkeeping.

Bookkeeping my barney. Either the scheme will work in the way it was intended to work, or it will not. The Minister's explanation had better be good. Already there is a great deal of dissatisfaction about the length of time it has taken to get the scheme into operation, and about the other matters I mentioned.

The Deputy should tread lightly on that one.

The Minister should be very careful.

There was a complete impasse.

The first approach was made to the Government of which the Minister was a member in October 1980 to get the scheme off the ground. I started the negotiations in August 1981.

It was deadlocked.

The scheme was not deadlocked. We had agreed to it on 26 January of this year. If it was deadlocked it was because the Minister did not understand what was going on. I do not accept for a moment that it was deadlocked. Far from it. I will be looking forward to hearing the Minister's explanation. We have been looking for it for a long time.

There is another point I want to raise in connection with the interest subsidy schemes. Perhaps not everybody is as well up on the terms of the scheme as they should be. Some people who are eligible for the national 5 per cent interest subsidy scheme applied for the EEC one, and vice versa.I do not know how big the problem is, but a number of my colleagues and I have come across it particularly in the context of establishing eligibility for the rescue package. I would ask the Minister to look at a very simple suggestion. If somebody applies for the wrong 5 per cent, would the Minister automatically put him into the pile of applications for the other one?

That is sensible.

There should be no great difficulty in doing that. I hope the Minister will do something which I and a number of my colleagues were concerned to do, that is, to keep talking about the availability of these schemes. There are three schemes in existence, each of which can help people to get over difficulties. I am not saying they will solve all the problems. Unfortunately we cannot be so ambitious perhaps. Let us promote these schemes. Let us make it clear at every opportunity that the schemes are there to be used, so that people who do not understand them completely will be stimulated into applying for them. It would be a great pity if these schemes did not produce the full results they are intended to produce. I see from the Estimates before us, and I hear from various sources one uses from time to time, that expenditure on these schemes is turning out to be pretty well what we expected it to be. Perhaps there is more demand for them. If there is we should meet it.

I agree with the Deputy.

I want to go on to another area on which no expenditure is reflected in the Estimates before us. During the year an appropriation-in-aid will be reflected in the Estimates. I refer to the calf subsidy being paid out of the EEC fund which was part of the recent EEC price package. I am already on record in the House as saying I regret very much that the calf subsidy is not in operation for calves born this spring, in other words, for this year's calves, most of them born before the end of April. It is a great pity.

There is at least a reasonable case to be made for saying the EEC have the money to finance that scheme this year. Had a better effort been made, perhaps we could have had it this year. I regret very much that farmers will not get the £32 million which they should get in 1982. No amount of huffing and puffing by the Minister and claiming, as he did today, that his package is worth £235 million in a full year, will fool people into believing the calf subsidy is worth £32 million.

£37 million.

Then we are losing more money than I thought.

Next January, February and March.

The fact is that we should be getting that subsidy for calves born this year, for this year's crop of calves. The money is there and we are not getting it. The Minister says we are not getting £37 million this year which we should be getting. There is another problem about that scheme. Inspections have begun in the past week or so. People who have calves they believe to be eligible bring them to centres to be tagged. I listened very carefully one evening to a spokesman for the Department of Agriculture in a radio interview saying exactly how it would be done. He said: "We will be putting as light a burden on farmers as possible in terms of getting these inspections done. They will be required to bring them to centres where they will be inspected and tagged in cradles so that we can avoid the dangers of bringing large numbers of very young calves together and spreading various contagious ailments".

I am told from a number of centres that people have not been happy about the way the inspections were carried out, and with the decisions made as to whether or not a particular calf was born since 20 May or before it. Obviously when you draw a line there will be somebody just on the wrong side of it. There will always be somebody who is just on the wrong side of it who will want to make it appear that he was just on the right side of it. Obviously that kind of problem will arise from time to time. Perhaps we can deal with it today when we have a very low level of births in our herd, when very few calves are being born. We are now in the valley period. It will move up in October and November——

January, February, March.

——when our winter milkers come along and when our winter calves are born. Moving to January, February and March the real flush will begin and large numbers of calves will be born. I want to know what arrangements the Minister has made to cover that. Will he have the same kind of inspections? I would urge the Minister to look again, in September perhaps, at how the scheme now in operation actually worked, to look at the problems that have come up and to make a very careful decision as to whether or not that same system will be used in the flush months when we have all these calves coming in. Let the Minister not forget that the ones that come in January or March will not get the subsidy until six months later. I am not just ignoring the Minister's remark. However, I would like to be sure that the Minister will look at the system of inspection and tagging because we might come up with a simpler system that would be more suited to our conditions here.

I agree with the Deputy.

We do not import calves the way the Italians do, and we tend to keep them here. We are not in the same situation as the Italians who when they first got the subsidy were in a situation which gave rise to the condition that the subsidy would be paid only when the animal was six months old. It is not out of concern for the animal's health or survivability that the subsidy is paid after six months. The concern there was to ensure that the animal would still be around and would not have been eaten after six months. We do not eat six month old calves; we do not eat three or four month old calves. We do not feed them in a way that would make them edible up to that because that is not our beef system. Would the Minister look at that again and if we can have flexibility in the way that we operate the scheme to suit Irish conditions, let us go back to the EEC Commission and tell them that they can change the terms of the scheme or allow us to change the terms of the scheme in a way that will suit our conditions, in a way that will suit our farmers and in a way that will cut down as much as possible on any inconvenience in operating the scheme.

I agree with the Deputy. It is helpful that this is coming in at this time when we can prepare the ground.

I am glad to hear that, because this is important. Even from the Minister's own point of view the more conveniently it can be done the better. There will be the odd calf that is six and a half months or seven months old that will get the subsidy, but we can never have complete perfection in a system like this. The heifer scheme is one for which £5 million is provided here and I am glad that the Minister has maintained this provision in his Estimate. I will not say any more about it than that. I know that an announcement is being made today about that scheme.

Now I come to a different matter which will come up again in this House fairly soon. I refer to the situation of the Irish Sugar Company. I note that a Bill has been circulated, the Sugar Manufacture (Amendment) Bill. I will have more to say on that when we are discussing the Bill. But I would ask the Minister in the meantime to consider this. Some time ago I put three questions to the Minister about the situation of the Sugar Company, and Deputy Molony put a question to him. My questions were, if the Minister had received the consultant's report which I commissioned on the matter and if he intended to publish the report, to ask him then what plans the Government have to provide extra capital for the company and to ask him what conditions in terms of the rationalisation of operations he intended to attach to the granting of extra capital to the company. Deputy Molony had a specific question relating to the request by the company for additional capital investment and the plans the Minister has to provide more finance for the company and the steps he proposes to take to provide £5 million for special development of the factory in Thurles in accordance with the general election commitment.

The Minister replied to that that he has received the report referred to and hopes to introduce legislation soon to make provision for extra capital for the company, that he is not yet in a position to indicate the conditions to be attached to such capital and that he does not intend to publish the report. I am just raising this matter now so that when we come to discuss that Bill the Minister may reconsider the kind of position he is taking. He is proposing in the Bill to authorise an increase in the equity of the company from £10 million to £75 million, an extra £65 million, and there is another £3 million that the Minister can take up also. The Sugar Company for its part requested assistance from the Government and looked for £75 million over three years. In fact the reason I commissioned the consultant study was that I did not feel that I had enough information or indeed enough background insight to make the decision on the plan put forward by the company without some extra advice. We have discussed this before in this House and I am glad that the Minister has proceeded with that and maintained that in being.

There is, however, a serious problem to be met there. The Sugar Company's difficulties with total losses of £12.1 million in 1981 arise from a number of factors. One of them is that it has got very heavy borrowing and therefore extremely heavy interest bills. Another source of problems is the structure of the company's operations. I would be very concerned if there were any prospect that additional equity capital would simply be poured into the company without there being a corresponding requirement or commitment to restructure the company's operations and to do more with the extra equity than simply pay off the debts, to put it very crudely. I wanted to raise the matter now because I would not like the Minister to be under any misapprehension as to what exactly we on this side of the House will want to raise when we come to debate that Bill. The Minister, therefore, knows my line of thinking and the kind of thing I am likely to raise and I am telling him in advance so that we can have the most constructive possible discussion when we come to discuss that Bill.

That happens to square with my own views.

I am glad to hear it. I notice in the Supplementary Estimate the provision of £5.6 million for the winding up of the Pigs and Bacon Commission, a procedure I had started and where negotiations have been going on for some time. That £5.6 million represents the outstanding debts, the accumulated deficit of the Pigs and Bacon Commission up to now. The Minister is proposing to liquidate that accumulated deficit and then I presume we will have some matters before the House here to tie it up in legislative form to leave the rest of the operation to the Pigs and Bacon Commission or its successor body, whatever it is called. The only question I have is, does the Minister feel obliged at this point to liquidate all the debt at one fell swoop. Is that the best use for £5.6 million? I am very conscious of this because I was talking a while ago about proposing that we spend an extra £2.5 million on increasing the grants for reactor cattle and suggesting that we should look again at the hardship fund in ways which will inevitably lead to an increase in spending on the hardship fund. I am conscious that it is not all that easy to come by money these days and I am glad to note, reading a report of the speech made by the Tánaiste to Cairde Fáil the other day, that he now seems belatedly to be finding out the same thing. I am conscious of this and I wonder if it is wise to liquidate at one fell swoop the total of the accumulated deficits.

Could the Minister not find a better use for some of that £5.6 million and perhaps liquidate the deficit over a longer period, because it is open to the Government to take on the liability for the debt, to pay the interest and, perhaps, a rapid running down of the principle without doing it all in one go. Some of that £5.6 million could do a lot to help improve the hardship fund. Another £2 million is provided in the Estimate for the free pre-movement testing this year, which should be built into whatever we do in terms of improving the disease eradication scheme. The money could be used for other purposes, such as making sure the rescue package goes through quickly this year. I would ask the Minister to have a look at this and think about the different constructive uses he could find for that money.

There is provision for an extra £186,000 to compensate the Agricultural Credit Corporation for particular measures taken in relation to the Clover plant at Waterford. I am not going over those arrangements because we can discuss what was done there on another occasion, but I am concerned to find there is the possibility that the ACC may be saddled with an obligation to finance shadow social welfare payments to their workers. Not that I am begrudging anything to the people concerned, our views are well known on this area, but to find the ACC getting mixed up in this way seems to be stretching the areas the corporation should be involved in.

In their Annual Report for 1981 the chairman of the ACC reflecting on what was going in that company said at page 20:

While the inflow of deposits in the year under review was substantially higher than in the previous year the growth in smaller deposits continues to be unsatisfactory. The principal reason for this in our view, is the taxation inequalities that exist as between the Corporation and many other deposittaking institutions.

I am worried about that because we rely on the ACC to provide a substantial amount of credit to farmers and to provide for particular kinds of farming operations. If the ACC are getting into difficulties in the sense that they are being pushed out of the small deposits market, then we should worry. I contrast the situation in the ACC with that of the associated banks and the trustee savings banks. For depositors in the associated banks the first £50 of deposit interest is ignored for the purpose of taxation and the first £70 in the case of the trustee savings banks.

I know the Commission on Taxation will shortly be producing a report and I hope the general question of the treatment of deposit interest in financial institutions for income tax is dealt with. If it is not, the Minister and the Minister for Finance should give some attention to the relative position of the ACC as against the other institutions. I am not saying we should change anything for the other institutions or follow a particular course, but it is important that we put the ACC in a position of equality with the other financial institutions and allow them to attract deposits. If a financial institution cannot attract deposits they cannot lend money.

I would like to refer to the IDA's booklet, A Strategy for the Development of the Agricultural Processing Industry in Ireland.This is of considerable importance to agriculture and the economy. If the Minister has not already done so, I would like to ask him to consider some of the recommendations in this report and to comment on them. In this booklet the IDA set out in the case of a number of important food processing sectors a suggested strategy for development and guidelines for the IDA's own approach to assist these industries. In relation to the beef industry, the IDA analysed the situation briefly and put forward a number of specific criteria for deciding which firms will qualify for assistance. The first has to do with modernisation, with which we all agree, the second encourages a greater degree of the processing of beef, a greater support for boning operations only where commercial outlets have been developed and continuity assured, and it says “No grant will be available for additional slaughtering capacity”.

In relation to the sheep processing industry, we find a number of specific criteria one of which concerns encouraging the production of processed sheepmeat, and then we find the statement, "No grant aid will be available for additional slaughtering capacity or for plants which fail to meet export licensing standards".

In relation to the pigmeat industry the criteria include the statement "There will be no grant assistance available for projects involving only increased slaughtering capacity", and again concern is expressed with the development of added-value products.

In regard to animal by-products, we read "Grant assistance will not be available for additional rendering capacity (meat and bonemeal)". Again there is concern with developing added high value products and in some cases products which will substitute for imports. I was amused to read that one of the specific criteria is that "Products for the production of fully processed petfood, in canned or other form, will be encouraged until suitable raw material is fully utilised". That is a bit of good news for somebody on the Government side and I am sure after the last day or two Fianna Fáil could do with a little good news.

Then we come to the dairying industry and read, "No grant assistance will be available for increased capacity for bulk butter, milk powders, casein and butter oil". I could go on but the point has been made that the IDA are saying in a general way that they will not be encouraging the provision of just additional capacity to produce the first stage products. In my view they are to be commended for saying this. They invited comments on the various strategies set out in this document.

I asked the Minister to give some indication of his reaction to this and what it might mean in terms of the application of Government policy and the various aides and schemes to the food processing industry which the Government have at their disposal. This represents a constructive approach and a clear statement. We are not simply in the business of building new capacity for someone who wants to get into the business now. For instance, in the beef sector we have enough factory capacity to process anything we are likely to have available for processing in the next few years. If we are using public funds to help to have the development of the industry, we should recognise that fact and make sure we channel funds in more constructive and more rewarding directions.

The Minister referred to the situation in relation to lands. I have not a great deal to say about the Vote on Lands which the Dáil is also examining now but I am sure a number of my colleagues will want to discuss the matter. The Minister in his speech mentioned that the Land Commission have on hands 19,400 hectares of land suitable for letting. That is 48,500 acres and I know where the odd 500 acres are. I asked about it recently and I know they are in County Kildare. The Minister went on to say that this is below what was normal a few years ago. I am glad to hear that but I want to know what we are doing with 48,500 acres of lettable land still in the possession of the Land Commission. Some of the land has been on hand for periods ranging from three to eight years. Surely it is time we divided the land? Surely it is time it was prised out of the hands of the Land Commission and given to farmers? It is a difficult thing to do. I know because I tried to do it and the response was not as rapid as I hoped it would be. The Land Commission have in their possession land in every county and there are farmers in every county who have been renting it from the commission for the past five or six years. These people now think they have almost squatters' rights but when land is divided perhaps the person who has been renting it for the past five or six years will not get it and will feel a very understandable sense of grievance, even if it is not legally justified.

I know there is a difficulty today in that in distributing some of the land that was bought at high prices a few years ago, the annuity that would have to be charged would be very high even if it were reduced, as happens in some cases, by 30 per cent but I appeal to the Minister to continue the process I started and to make a determined effort to get the land divided. I know that some people consider that they should hold on to land in the hope that adjoining holdings may become available in a few years' time. Their attitude is that if they can hang on until that happens they could do a better job all around but it never seems to work out. I appeal to the Minister to put the pressure on to have the land divided. It is not producing as much as it could if people were fully in possession. It is not making a contribution to the relief of congestion, the original reason for setting up the Land Commission.

We have been talking about what is covered in the agriculture Estimate and the various schemes run by the Department to achieve our objectives in agriculture. We are talking about an Estimate of £265 million for this year which has now become £276 million with the Supplementary Estimate. A sum of £1,500,000 is shown in the Supplementary Estimate in respect of the interest scheme but I would not like the Minister to think I accept that this is extra expenditure because we had provided £4 million in our total budget projections in January. The Minister should not try to pretend that the £1,500,000 is a real addition: in fact, there has been a reduction of £2,500,000. I am not accepting that the £1,500,000 reflects an increase in the total amount of funds.

We are dealing with a figure of £276 million. Even if we distribute that over the total gross value of agricultural output we are talking of one-eighth or one-ninth of the value of total gross agricultural output. As the Minister pointed out some days ago in a statement from his Department, the amount that goes directly into the pockets of farmers in terms of grants paid to them is one thing while the amount spent on items that are of benefit to them is another matter. We are talking here of something of the order of 11 or 12 per cent of the equivalent of the value of gross agricultural output but we are not talking about the factors that, at the end of the day, have the greatest influence on what has happened to farmers in the past few years.

If there are two things that have made life really difficult or nearly impossible for farmers in the past four years they have been the rate of inflation and the increase in interest rates. They are the two worst enemies of the farmers. I should like the Minister to get involved in determining our national policies in areas that will have a direct influence on inflation rates and on interest rates apart from what we are doing in the way of subsidy. I was interested to read in yesterday's papers that the Minister for Finance at a meeting of Cairde Fáil did what he has so far failed to do in this House, namely, he recognised the nature and the extent of our problems. I should like to see a greater consciousness on the part of the Government that what is killing development in agriculture is the same thing that is killing development in our manufacturing industries. We have got to the point where it is extremely difficult to make anything here and get a profit out of it.

We must act in a determined way, we must have measures to relieve some of the burdens on our productive sectors, including agriculture. We must seriously consider measures that will relieve some of the burden of inflation rates from the costs of farmers and of manufacturing industries. Without those sectors we will not have jobs. Unless we get our productive sectors to expand we will not be able to create extra jobs for our young people. That means we have to expand our agricultural and processing industries and, to do that, we have to take off some of the weight under which they are labouring, of heavy interest charges and inflationary costs. Unless we do that we can talk until the cows come home about the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture but we will only be dealing with the surface of the problem because the real problem is much wider. I appeal to the Minister to use whatever influence he has with his colleagues to look at that matter seriously. Until we do that, there is no hope that our farmers will expand once more.

We are dealing with agriculture, which is the fundamental industry on which our economy circulates and the Minister's speech was very wide-embracing. The time limit does not allow me to go into all the aspects that the Minister has covered and, therefore, I will confine myself to making submissions in relation to the points I feel are necessary.

Farm incomes have widespread ramifications for the economy as a whole. When there is a drop in farmers' incomes, other related industries are also affected. From 1978 to date this industry has faced its worst recession for many years. We should endeavour to identify the causes and see how they can be remedied. I suggest that the main factors related to the recession is the drop in real income by farmers. What has caused that? It is generally accepted that inflation is the cause. Farm adjustment prices have not kept pace over those years with inflation and this has been a major factor. As agriculture depends so much on credit, the level of interest rates has been a vital factor in bringing about this downward trend. It is recognised that interest rates in excess of 10 per cent are not justified in respect of loans for agricultural development. The bank and interest rates which have been prevailing have been a major factor in creating some of the difficulties involved. The inflationary effects not only relate to income from agricultural production but are also reflected in their impact on investments by agriculture in buildings, machinery and other services which are so essential for the proper and full development of this major industry.

Considerable emphasis was laid on the volume of grants which are available for agricultural development but these have been over-specified and over-elaborated on. They reflect only a very small proportion of the expenditure that has to come from the agricultural community for the development of services. Hardship has been caused and difficulties encountered by the delay in the payment of grants in respect of work done. A high proportion of farmers depend on other employment to supplement their income, such as in forestry, county council, building, haulage and so on. Opportunities for this type of work have diminished considerably and has left many smaller farmers without the capital which these incomes provided for them in the past for the development of their lands.

There has been a colossal decline in livestock breeding, especially in beef and sheep herds. Fortunately there is now some hope that this trend has been arrested. The agricultural labour force has also declined substantially. There is a crisis in the food processing industry. While I am dealing with that aspect as a factor in farm losses, it is relevant to refer to a question on 9 June in which I asked the Taoiseach the total tonnage of potatoes imported into the Republic in 1981. I was informed it was 60,900 tonnes. That is an alarming figure. There is a need now for major leadership by the Department to co-operate with the agricultural associations, especially the co-operatives. It is a disgrace and a disaster that Irish agriculture had to import such a volume of potatoes last year. I do not accept that the traditional farmer has lost the expertise, knowledge or dedication to grow potatoes. What is required is specialisation in marketing and presentation. This field could be very usefully developed, in the interest of the agricultural community and of the national economy, through our co-operatives. Otherwise no individual farmer will be capable of meeting the challenge in the presentation and marketing of his products. I urge the Minister to encourage the co-operatives to involve themselves very substantially in the vital aspect of food processing which can be so beneficial to the economy, which will provide employment and help our balance of payments.

The farming community have suffered drastically in income levels and, as a result, there has been a serious erosion of confidence. It is now up to the Minister and the farming organisations to see that this is arrested. Unless this is done there will be a serious erosion of confidence in the industry to meet the challenges that lie ahead.

The dairy industry is facing a very serious challenge. From 1978 to 1981 there was a very serious drop in the volume of milk delivered to creameries. The Minister indicated today that he anticipates a 5 per cent increase for 1982. This is somewhat more optimistic than our co-operatives anticipate. Nevertheless, it is a welcome sign that at least the tide appears to be turning. The output of milk in 1978 was 1,000,000,000 gallons. Had that type of output continued we would by now have reached something in the region of 1,200,000,000 gallons rather than the present substantially low figure.

While appreciating the overall problems experienced in agriculture the dairying industry encountered its peculiar difficulties in the years 1978 to 1980. One of these problems, with which Deputy Dukes has dealt already, is that of the animal disease factor which has eroded so many of our herds and caused such disturbance in the industry. The Minister should favourably consider the points made by Deputy Dukes. I know of some farmers whose total herds of perhaps 30 to 40 animals were wiped out recently by brucellosis, leaving such farmers denuded of any basic income, a position which will obtain for the next three to four years. I know of one young progressive farmer with a young family, a farmer with 42 animals, whose total compensation amounted to £7,000. The Minister should re-examine that aspect bearing in mind the current value of money.

The adverse weather conditions in the spring of 1979, the summer of 1980 and the spring of 1981 gave rise to serious problems occasioned by shorter grazing periods and fodder scarcity resulting in reduced milk output. The third and perhaps most severe problem arose through EEC pressure to maintain milk prices at an absolute minimum. Because of inflationary costs there was no incentive to many farmers, which resulted in a drastic reduction in dairying herds, reflected now in a serious drop in intake at the various co-operatives, in turn leading to the loss of many jobs. As is well known, the recent policy with regard to such co-operatives has been one of rationalisation reducing their work force dramatically. This a factor that will be reflected in the employment situation in rural areas where the dairying industry forms the main base.

With regard to the farm modernisation scheme, on which the Minister laid considerable emphasis, it must be said that there is urgent need for its wider implementation amongst the farming community. It is a scheme that can be of immense benefit to our economy as a whole because of the resultant extra productivity, increasing cattle, sheep and pig numbers and possibly also an increased volume of barley and wheat. I suggest that the Minister re-examine its operational methods and regulations. On 22 June I asked the Minister for Agriculture a parliamentary question, No. 483, reading as follows:

.... if, in view of the inability of many farmers to secure the capital necessary for farm modernisation programmes which involve (1) fencing, (2) drainage, (3) rock and scrub removal, (4) manuring and (5) road development, he will agree to the payment of the grant in respect of each of the above developments on a certificate of approval from the Agricultural Officer.

The Minister's reply to me was as follows:

Under the terms of the farm modernisation scheme grant aid is payable only when approved works have been completed to the required specifications. I do not propose to change this procedure.

Let us take the example of a small farmer in any part of this country wanting to implement a programme of modernisation on his, say, ten, 20 or 30 acres of land. Any one of those operations I have mentioned would be beyond his financial capacity whether it be fencing, drainage, the removal of rock and scrub or whatever. But any one alone would constitute an improvement in his land, economy and in turn the national economy. As the regulations obtain many farmers will be unable to undertake the development of many acres of their land lying practically useless.

My suggestion to the Minister was that when, say, the fencing work had been completed — if a certificate of approval of that work related to the estimate which would have been given in any case by the agricultural officer — if that farmer was paid therefor that would enable him to proceed with the hiring of machinery for the remaining work. In this regard the Department would not have to incur any additional cost but it would put the farmer in a position to proceed more rapidly in the fuller knowledge that he would be in a position to pay the relevant contractors whereas, at present in most cases he would be unable to obtain the necessary credit to carry out that type of work. It would be difficult to estimate the value of reclaiming and modernising the many hundreds of thousands of acres of that type of rough scrub land, requiring a variety of costly operations. But it must be said that the small farmer would not have the capital, machinery or expertise required. The only possible alternative is to have it undertaken piecemeal, paid for piecemeal, when it could be effected at an earlier stage. But as the scheme operates at present the total cost, including seeding, manuring and de-ploughing is beyond the capacity of such farmers. I would strongly urge the Minister and his Department to examine that situation with a view to effecting the necessary changes, ensuring such development on a piecemeal basis, which would certainly be worthwhile and constitute a major contribution to the economy of the individual concerned and the national economy.

Tied up with the overall situation in the west is the western drainage scheme. Applications under that scheme in 1979 were exceptionally heavy while in 1980 there was a substantial drop. There is considerable unease at the delay in dealing with applications submitted late in 1980 and in 1981. Here I would strongly urge the Minister to have these estimates of grant aid revised so that people anxiously awaiting to undertake these improvement works might be given the green light. There are many acres of such land under water, preventing its development. Applications lodged in the latter quarter of 1980 by people in my county still have not been investigated. I would hope that at least they might be expedited. In regard to that aspect and indeed others in agriculture it must be remembered that people can lose confidence in a scheme, in the fact that it aimed at benefiting them.

I might deal now with the whole question of the Land Commission and land policy generally. I was particularly pleased to hear the Minister say that the Government are really concerned, that following the publication of the 1980 White Paper, they are really determined — and this is what is important — to tackle the whole problem of land resettlement. In western counties it is recognised that a substantial volume of farmers' holdings are so small they are uneconomic. An equally disturbing factor is that over a number of years pockets of land that could usefully have been purchased by the Land Commission and re-allocated, making smaller holdings more economic, have been allowed to fall into other hands, being retained as small uneconomic units.

The worst feature of this is that many of these have passed into the hands of foreign interests. I understand that an EEC member must have seven years' residency in the country before he can be accepted by the Land Commission as a legitimate purchaser of agricultural land. I welcome foreign capital to purchase land for industry, development and job creation but agricultural land is too scarce to barter for foreign currency when we take into consideration the uneconomic holdings and the young farmers who have the expertise but who are denied any opportunity to rent land from which to make a living. It is important to have a land policy which is aimed at improving the lot of the many uneconomic holdings throughout the country and which will also ensure that there are opportunities for people, who have never had land and have not the capital to purchase it, to lease land from which they can make their contribution to the national economy.

I know of a person who is neither an EEC member nor an Irish national and who has a substantial acreage of good Irish agricultural land. Is that situation condoned? How long can a person be out of the country and still be a registered owner of land? Many people are worried about this, particularly when we take into consideration the scarcity of land and the different uses land can be put to. We would like to know how people living outside the country become registered owners of land in the first instance. This matter should be investigated.

The Department of Agriculture are reviewing the severely handicapped areas and some consideration is being given to extending the existing boundaries of the severely handicapped areas. It is very difficult in some areas to ascertain how the boundaries were determined and how some areas with low population and very low agricultural productivity were excluded to the very serious disadvantage of the small farmers in those areas. I hope decisions in relation to the enlargement of the severely handicapped areas will be made soon so that the headage grants and sheep subsidies are available to those enlarged areas in 1982.

The Minister should review the off-farm income. Some of those people have approximately 40 hours' employment throughout the year at forestry work or county council work so that it is very difficult for many of those workers to benefit from the financial reward of the headage grants. If this was extended to approximately £6,000 a large number of those people who are in insecure employment would be covered. Those people are making a major contribution to the productivity of agriculture. Their earnings from their off-farm work have made a great contribution towards the development of their farms. This has been to the national advantage as well as their own. The existing figure is below the normal level of wages of workers in the local areas so it should be reviewed and should represent a normal weekly wage. Those people with their families make a great contribution towards the development of agriculture and they receive very little acknowledgement for it.

The Minister has dealt with grain but there is one aspect which has not been fully covered, the position of the wheat industry. It is generally accepted that there is little which can be done in relation to the importation of flour which is threatening many flour mills. Our flour milling has made a great contribution to employment over the years and it would be regrettable if it was completely eroded. There are other factors which should be looked at such as the tense international situation. If there was another world war and the importation of flour discontinued, in the absence of a wheat growing and a milling policy we could find ourselves in serious difficulties. The Minister should bear in mind the economic factors of the situation, the employment factors, the loss of income to that community but he should also bear in mind the long-term policy of the continuation of wheat growing and milling in the circumstances of serious world conflict or national conflict in the future. We know that in the forties, when we had a national situation, there was a very serious tillage programme which provided wheat for milling. A discontinuation of flour milling would be a disaster. The Minister should look very seriously at this and he should have discussions with the flour milling association and the agricultural community.

Another factor which is of major concern to agricultural workers is the position in regard to the meat factories, short-time working, and the export of cattle on the hoof. The Minister has referred to this in his statement and we hope for final arrangements which will result in the meat factories working to full capacity, ending the present very serious drop in employment.

The delay in the introduction of the calf premium, like the delay in the introduction of the 1982 package, was of some concern to the agricultural community. While I welcome it, the number of calves born between 20 May and the end of December will be minimal in relation to the total calf population.

In the matter of inspection, at present the young calves are brought to the central marts for the issue of birth certificates, but the agricultural officers should go to the herd rather than have the farmers transporting young animals at great inconvenience over wide distances. I ask the Minister to arrange for this change in the system in time for the spring calving season.

I ask the Minister to review the situation in relation to farm modernisation, the western drainage scheme, land policies and the extension of severely handicapped area boundaries. Also of vital concern is vegetable processing. These are matters of tremendous importance to the agricultural community and also to the national economy. I ask the Minister to consider the points I have raised and hope that the end of 1982 will see a turnabout in agriculture which has been in recession since 1978. Even an improvement of 3 to 5 per cent would have a substantial impact on the farmers whose income has been savagely hit and who are not happy about how the banks have been dealing with them in the matter of the capital which they have put into the industry. I hope that by the end of this year the situation will have much improved for the agricultural community.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture, and I avail of this opportunity of wishing the new Minister well in his present role. In his first major assignment, the Brussels negotiations, he proved himself a good and tough negotiator. While the results may not have been as good as we would wish for Irish farmers, it is accepted that, in the circumstances, we got the best possible deal.

One of the unacceptable features of these negotiations was the unnecessary and deliberate tactic of Britain in delaying negotiations, costing Irish farmers many thousands of pounds. Our other major difficulty was that the real value of the price increases is significantly reduced because of our high inflation rate, a problem which Irish farmers have not created or contributed to in any way. It is a matter for the Irish Government to take steps to compensate farmers, either by an adjustment in the exchange rate or by direct Government action. These circumstances are completely outside the control of the agricultural industry. In a situation like that, a Government must protect the industry and the income of the people who operate it.

This raises a major question of relevance to this debate—the very important question of the economic climate in which our agricultural industry has to operate. The money being provided in this Estimate must be used in achieving our main objective, that of improving farm output and efficiency and increasing the income of those who live on the land and who operate the nation's most important industry. I am not happy that successive Governments have succeeded in achieving either of those two important objectives. Unless we plan the future development of the industry as one vital and essential in our future plans for economic development, farming and the economy in general will suffer. As well as creating a favourable economic climate, we must also create an acceptable psychological climate in which it is understood and accepted by the non-farming community that agriculture is not solely of benefit to farmers but to the entire nation.

If any good could come from a recession, the present recession may have helped in some small way to create such awareness. That is because of the resultant decline in business in the agricultural services industry, resulting in the closing of old and long-established businesses and the loss of thousands of jobs for Irish workers. There are many such examples of this great tragedy across the country. I am sure there is not a Deputy here who cannot list a large number of firms who have been so affected, and thousands of workers have lost jobs as a result.

In my constituency it has affected long established businesses, like Flemings Fireclay, Patsy Kelly in Portlaoise and HI Dairy Services. They are all agriculture-based service industries operating in the predominantly agricultural counties of Laois and Offaly where they provided good employment. This brings home, tragically perhaps, for the first time our dependence on a thriving agriculture.

This Estimate is relevant to all industry dependent on farming grant aid schemes, and I welcome its increased provision for that reason. It is Government recognition of the problem and will go some of the way towards dealing with them. Though I am a farmer I do not speak specifically for the farmers when I say that these plans do not go far enough or move in the right direction, and I will avail of this opportunity to urge the Minister to insist at Government meetings that unless agriculture is seen positively as a growth industry with tremendous potential for increased and sustained employment, we will have failed to develop in the national interest our greatest national resource.

I have always held that agriculture should be the base for our economic development and that when the Government are involved in the preparation of a new economic development programme, something long overdue, agriculture should have a high place in that plan, a new place, so that it will be seen by our planners as the base around which all other plans should revolve. From experience we can honestly say that in past industrial promotions programmes by successive Governments, including this one, there has been failure and disappointment. We have concentrated on enticing into the country outside firms to process raw materials largely imported. In such circumstances we are legitimately entitled to take a fresh look at agriculture as a base for industrial development.

Let us take one small example, reported in today's newspapers. The total cost of vegetable imports per annum here is in the region of £55 million. Is there not something seriously amiss when a country with our climate and potential for development should be importing vegetables worth £55 million? That money could be usefully channelled into other forms of development and job creation. Why should every greengrocer's shop and supermarket be stocked to the doors with imported vegetables? Why should even Irish farmers be buying imported vegetables and the majority of our householders be using them? The majority of Irish households have their own gardens which could be producing all the vegetables we import.

I suggest that in conjunction with the county committees of agriculture we should embark on a public relations programme, an educational programme, to try to devise schemes for the production of most of our vegetables at home and thus keep at home the staggering annual sum we pay for imports. We would then be helping to reduce weekly household bills because vegetables are not cheap. The time has come when such an adult programme should be embarked on by ACOT.

Commercial vegetable producers have been complaining that they are unable to sell their produce on the Irish market because the price of imported vegetables is more attractive to the Irish housewife. I suggest, therefore, that the Government should take positive action to protect the commercial producers in the national interest. I hope we will soon see such positive Government action.

Our past experience in regard to efforts to establish industrial development must convince many people of the logic of my argument. We owe it to our people, particularly our young people, to give them the opportunity to share in the development of our greatest resource, the land of Ireland. They cannot do this unless we as legislators create an economic climate to enable them to do so. I believe we have not created an economic climate, we have not treated agriculture as an essential part of our overall economic development programme. I do not have to remind the House of the very serious decline in farm incomes that has taken place, particularly in the last three or four years. I do not wish to sound cynical but the almost deafening silence from some quarters in regard to their call in the past for farmer taxation is an indication that those people have not got the message that the boom period as far as farm incomes are concerned has ended. During that period farmers reinvested their profits in the development of holdings for the benefit of the industry in general. As a result the economy in general benefited.

It is a well known and established fact that during those good years in agriculture, when farm incomes admittedly were on the increase, progressive farmers used the extra profits to modernise and reinvest in the industry. Those farmers not only used their profits but they also borrowed heavily to assist them in the development. Regretfully, due to an international recession, and the high rate of inflation that we have, many farmers are almost regretting that they ever embarked on development programmes.

I should like to make one further point on the Estimate. Unless profitability on farming is such that the margin for reinvestment is sufficient to enable the industry to expand then, regretfully, farming will stagnate and the economy will suffer as a result. I can recall from my elementary study of economics that the agents of production were known as land, labour, capital and orpanisation, the basic simple economic facts. As far as we are concerned we certainly have the land and I do not think anybody will dispute the fact that at present we also have the labour. In fact, one of the great tragedies of the existing high rate of unemployment is that it need not be as high as it is if we had taken steps down through the years to develop agriculture, agriculture service industries and the food processing industry to provide secure and dependable employment from our basic raw material, the produce of the land.

The other agent of production is capital. It is true to say that there is an availability of capital for those who wish to borrow but, regrettably, as far as farming is concerned it is available at a price which will not yield a return. Therefore, any business-minded farmer will have to look closely at any proposal he may have for investing borrowed capital in his farm. It does not make good economic sense to borrow if that level of borrowing does not guarantee a reasonable return. I welcome the provision in the Estimate for an interest subsidy. I urge the Minister, and the Government, to look seriously at the entire area of the availability of capital for agricultural development. If we allow the situation to continue where borrowed capital does not give a return, then as far as agriculture is concerned we have reached the end of development and expansion. We must make capital available at a rate of interest which allows for a fair margin of return to the farmer and that must be done as a priority. I would go so far as to say that development capital made available at an economic price will in the long term be of greater benefit to farmers than some of the more direct aids we have been making available to them. I admit that those aids were of great benefit in that they encouraged farmers to develop. One of the problems about direct aids — I am referring specifically to grants in one shape or form — is that by the time they reach farmers' pockets their real value has been eroded by inflation or increased costs by those who provide services to the farming community. I do not have to remind Members who understand agriculture how those increases come about.

I would appreciate if there was silence in the public gallery.

Either the youthful audience in the public gallery find agriculture a boring subject or they do not understand it. Generally, it is alleged that farmers are always seeking handouts. I should like to dispel that myth because in fairness to farmers they have responded to every call down through the years and availed of every incentive provided by successive Governments. All they want is an acceptable economic climate which will enable them to develop their industry in their own and the national interest. We have failed miserably to develop the productive sector of our economy. Unless immediate action is taken to redress the imbalance — and there is a glaring imbalance at present — between the productive and service sectors and reduce the number of unemployed, our future is in serious jeopardy.

We have three million people. Of those, one million are gainfully employed. Of that number, 520,000 people are engaged directly or indirectly in the agricultural industry. Need one say more to highlight the importance of the industry and need to develop it further? Surely those figures bear out my earlier arguments that there is tremendous scope and potential for developing the industry from the point of view of creating jobs.

There is provision in the Estimate for ACOT committees and agricultural education. Agricultural education is essential as far as the future development of the industry is concerned. One of the sad things about the agricultural recession in the past two years is that agricultural services and advisers in some instances have been unfairly tarnished in relation to agricultural development plans. Those plans were genuinely well prepared at a time when the economic situation was different from what it is now. It would be a great tragedy if that was to be the permanent picture as far as agricultural advisory services were concerned. Agricultural advisers, ACOT committees and old county committees of agriculture played a major role in the progress of agriculture and in assisting farmers to develop their farms and so develop their income. They will have a greater role to play in that area with all the challenges the future will bring.

The future of young farmers must be based on sound technical and scientific education. The only place that can come from is our team of agricultural advisers and instructors. I admit that there was a lack of confidence but it was isolated and rare. I hope confidence will be firmly restored to enable farmers to avail of the excellent services available through the committees of agriculture. I am glad that the Estimate makes provision for and refers to the need to put as much of the land as possible into the hands of young people. We must improve our schemes to encourage early retirement and give adequate rewards to the older generation of farmers who, in more difficult times, helped to maintain and stabilise the agricultural base for us.

If we are to make any real progress in the area of farm inheritance and transfers we must commence by making retirement attractive. I am glad the Minister made provision whereby farmers, within a period of two years, can transfer their properties to their sons without incurring stamp or estate duty. This is a positive commitment from the Minister, who was an excellent Minister for Agriculture, to encourage land transfer to active, energetic and dedicated young farmers.

The Estimate provides for a continuation of the payment of farm modernisation grants. I expressed reservations in relation to the grants structure in general. I admit they have encouraged land improvements and provided worthwhile incentives and assistance to farmers. In the short term they should be continued. Farmers who have availed of them or who are waiting to avail of them, recognise the fact that while they are supposed to represent 50 per cent of the total cost of land drainage and 30 per cent of the total cost of buildings, regrettably, due to the fact that costings have not been increased for three years, the percentage they represent is significantly lower than what it is supposed to be. There are many farmers short of capital who wish to embark on farm development programmes. They are restricted from doing so because of the present very low level of grants. I urge the Minister of State, Deputy Cowen who is a friend of mine to use his influence with his Minister in this area as I know he will because, coming from an agricultural background he is keenly interested in this aspect of farm development.

I wish to deal with an area which I hope will not embarras the Minister of State. It is in relation to the disadvantaged area schemes. If we are to have balanced agricultural and regional development, we must take steps to compensate for the physical imbalance between regions and counties. In introducing his Estimate the Minister covered the entire field of agricultural development but when he was referring to the question of disadvantaged areas I made a note to remind the House that there are other areas of the country equally if not more disadvantaged than western areas, something that successive Governments have failed to recognise. But for these other areas there is not available the same level of grants for development purposes as is available for the west. I do not wish to be taken in any way as being against development in the west. That area must be an essential part of any national development programme but when we are talking about development we must not provide funds and schemes for the development of one area as against another which could be more disadvantaged.

In my constituency, for instance, there is the Slievemargey area of south-east Laois, an area of many small farming families, which because of its physical qualities, heights, drainage and so on, is very seriously disadvantaged. At the other end of the county there is the Slievebloom area which suffers from the same disadvantages. We now have on record in our county — this is something that not every county has — soil survey maps which clearly and officially indicate that the areas to which I refer are as disadvantaged as is any other area of the country. I am referring to a survey conducted scientifically by the Agricultural Institute. It shows clearly the soil types which in turn indicate the extent to which the area is disadvantaged.

Concerning any proposals there may be for the extension of the disadvantaged areas, any steps taken must be taken in a way that is fair and based on the facts. In the past there have been too many cases of political decisions being made in this context. If we are seriously interested in agricultural development and in ensuring that the limited amount of money available for this purpose is channelled into those areas that deserve it most, we must have no more political decisions in regard to the areas that are designated. There is available to us now the technical information on which designations can properly be made.

I hope that on the basis of the review to which I have referred, both the Minister of State and myself will be able to present to the Department a case based on facts, based on the soil survey maps, and which will convince the Department that we have a genuine case. The farmers of the areas to which I have referred need the grants so that they may make progress with their land drainage work. The unit cost in those areas is much greater than would be the case in any of the low-lying areas.

Similarly, the fodder grants are essential if farmers are to be encouraged to produce adequate winter feed for their livestock. The headage payments too, are essential if we are to endeavour to maintain what are the declining farm incomes of those families who are trying to continue to operate their farms in those disadvantaged areas.

I shall conclude by referring briefly to our disease eradication programme and by expressing my disappointment at the continuing difficulties being experienced in respect of TB eradication. This situation is a big disappointment to the farmers as well as to the Department. It is regrettable that the progress to date has not been as successful as we would have wished despite the many millions of pounds that have been spent on the programme.

There is another aspect of disease eradication which I wish to bring to the notice of the Minister and that is the level of compensation being paid to farmers whose herds are afflicted by this disease. I refer particularly to farmers who for one reason or another find themselves in the position of having to dispose of almost their entire herd, whether that herd be made up of dairy cows or of dry stock. I know of many such instances. While there is in operation a hardship fund, a fund designed to assist farmers in those difficult circumstances, this fund as I know from my association with the farming community in my constituency is not at all adequate to compensate for the financial loss sustained when an entire herd is wiped out. The State has a responsibility to come to the assistance of farmers who, having co-operated in the disease eradication programme, find themselves in such difficult circumstances. In the case of the dairy farmers such a situation is very severe. We all know the commercial value of a dairy cow which must be put into a factory for slaughter mid-term through lactation; her carcase weight would be extremely low. Because of the inadequacy of the compensation paid in such cases farmers concerned cannot replace their loss without resorting to heavy borrowing.

I would urge the Minister and Minister of State to take a fresh and serious look at the hardship fund in regard to the level of compensation which is to be paid in future to farmers. It would be nothing short of a tragedy if progressive farmers had to dispose of their herds and were unable to replace them because of the difference between the level of compensation and the amount needed for replacement.

In the time available I have endeavoured to cover as many aspects of agricultural development as possible. I conclude by again making a plea to the Government that in the preparation of any economic development programme for the future they would ensure that agriculture is the real and effective base on which genuine progress can develop.

Speaking in my limited capacity as spokesman for my party on agricultural production I welcome the Estimate. It was refreshing to hear the previous speaker for whom I have great respect talk on the lines of the late Deputy John Callanan's contributions — I could not but think of him as the Deputy spoke and he certainly "did him proud". I hope my contribution will be equally forthright and balanced. In regard to our greatest industry there is no merit, indeed much demerit, in point-scoring. We are concerned with the one industry and the Deputy's opening remarks on the inflationary problem were identical with my own views. I must reiterate that beyond doubt the big farming problem today is inflation.

Coming here next week will be our agricultural counterparts from the Council of Europe countries. We shall meet them in Dublin Castle on Tuesday morning. They will meet our farming interests and farm leaders and have an opportunity of hearing for themselves about our problems. The French, and the Germans in particular, have I think, got it into their heads that we are a backward lot, that our problems are self-imposed, that there is no reason why with all the grant aid we are supposed to get we should not be as well off as our EEC colleagues. But they forget that with inflation rates and borrowing rates of over 20 per cent we have a very severe handicap, one that, as has been stated, we cannot overcome. We cannot show a profit on what we are getting.

In the case of EEC farmers quite a reasonable amount can go into their pockets for development, bringing up their families and for economic production. In our case before we get an income, apart for price-fixing or anything else, all of what we get scarcely keeps us in line with inflation, leaving us with no profit. You can say that State borrowing and the running down of our economy have so denuded our national assets that we find ourselves in the present situation. This is the first problem of the Government and the Minister and it must be tackled now. As I said earlier this week here, borrowing must stop.

The Minister spoke about the delay in price fixing and that did add to the confusion. It was not the Minister's fault and we do not blame him but I think he should demand compensation. Why should Britain deprive Irish dairy farmers of a substantial slice of their income? We have an equal right to tell them that no co-responsibility levy will be paid or should be paid until such time as we have fully reimbursed our dairy farmers for their losses. That is the sort of talk they respect out there, at least from what I have seen of them. This is the sort of talk they go on with themselves. The grim fact is that despite our good land and our reasonably pleasant and suitable climate for agriculture we have a real proverty situation in the industry. I do not want to over-emphasise this, merely to make the point that many of our best people — not those who took it easy and were cagey and did not bother much about expansion — the real go-getters, the young married fellows, getting the best available advice at the time, took that advice and borrowed money at 9, 10, or 11 per cent for a programme laid out for them by their ACOT advisers. They now find, because of the almost traumatic change, much of it self-inflicted — we may talk about recessions abroad but much of it is an Irish recession — that they are in real difficulties through no fault of theirs.

I hope that this debate will concentrate more on these people. We are doing something across the board, something that is real in every area, I admit; I have no basic fault to fine with the Estimate, but I do not think sufficient emphasis has been placed on the large number of farmers who are in dire financial straits. The rescue package so far as it goes is a help but we who meet those farmers who are trying to avail of the package find that there so much red tape and difficulties involved and the amount of money available is so small that it is not good enough. I suggest that in line with industry we should forthwith have a "Fóir Teoranta" for agriculture, a rescue organisation that would move in and look at a man's position, his potential and the capacity of his farm and say; "This man is worth rescuing; accordingly we will help him". In the end of the day you will find you will not be spending many millions and what you do spend will be wisely spent. It will not be a recurring problem. I can assure the House that if we get a man out of his borrowing he will not be in a hurry to go into it again; he will be more cautious next time. As was pointed out by Deputy Hyland, it would need to be a very sound project indeed before he would borrow for it.

That is my first point. While there is a rescue package — and the concept of Deputy Dukes is an excellent one — I believe it is not sufficient. The problem is so great that we must act immediately. We must be seen to be moving in that direction because one cannot operate efficiently with that sort of cloud over one's head. That heavy borrowing has put the farmer in a position where he is not as efficient as he should be. He is getting letters from the banks and the ACC and he is told that he must prove that he can become viable or he will have to sell his assets. In the name of God, if he has 50 acres of land what do we want him to do? If he sells some of his land he has gone to the cleaners altogether. The thing is useless for the sort of borrowing that I have witnessed in my constituecy and in the discussions I have had with farmers around the country.

In the Estimate much mention was made of vegetables and what we are going to do about them. Wheat and potatoes were referred to. How can we as a nation continue to import something like £650 million worth of food each year? It is an eloquent demonstration of our demand for consumer products of a very high degree, but it is also a challenge which we should and can meet. As a spokesman for the potato producers said, at the moment we have some greedy potato merchants importing potatoes willy-nilly, knowing full well that we can supply the market place. I hope we will have a further opportunity in this House to discuss this important matter. We devote a lot of time in the House to things that do not matter at all. We attract big crowds into the galleries with sensational matters, but as far as the economy is concerned we should get down here for a day talking about how we can best stop the import of horticultural produce and all types of food that we can produce here. That would be a good day's work for this parliament. We would be creating a substantial amount of employment. We would be saving quite a number of small farmers west, east and south of the Shannon because very little Irish land, even cutaway bog, would not grow first class vegetables.

However, this is a big operation, and while I accept the point made by previous speakers that our back gardens are growing weeds and everything else, what I am talking about must be done on a large scale through the co-operative socities, the Sugar Company and Erin Foods. From my own experience a few drills of cabbage and so on can be a bit of a nuisance in the fields when it comes to spraying. A guy grows carrots, probably some cabbage, and that is his way of life. He puts them on the market and there the problem will start because he must present them properly. The housewife is entitled to proper presentation and to goods at the right price. We may not be able to produce fresh vegetables all the year around but there is no excuse for bringing in swede turnips from North Africa or cabbage from Belgium, as we do. I was in Strasbourg recently with you, Mr. Chairman. I went down early to the marketplace where the the street was closed off. There was a fine display of food, some of it of indifferent quality because of the time of the year, but it was all French. Despite the language difficulty I had a little talk with some of the people there and I was told that they insist that it must be French and they make all sorts of difficulties for the Dutch and the Belgians and everyone else at the border when they attempt to bring in, as they are entitled to, food from these countries.

For heaven's sake, on our island here we have everything going for us. When we consider the cost of bringing produce in from Belgium, Holland and North Africa, not to mention potatoes from Cyprus, it beats me why we should think of doing this at all. We should be producing our own. However, when this is tackled it must be done properly. A number of projects in the past fell by the wayside because they were not handled properly and the wrong people dealt with the various aspects. If you are to start to do this properly it must be done on a contractual basis. You would have to estimate the market and you would probably under-estimate it to be safe. Various people would have to be contacted and asked to grow at fixed prices and give an agreement that they would send their produce into the depot. You would need a great deal of co-operation to do it, but I believe that that co-operation is there. We got it in Erin Foods and in less lucrative markets down the years. I hope that we will proceed along those lines and start out by giving a day here in this parliament to talk about it.

A previous speaker — I think it was Deputy Hyland or perhaps Deputy Moynihan of the Labour Party — mentioned wheat imports. Why should we be paying £150 a tonne for imported wheat while we can grow first-class milling wheat here at home for £140? There is no reason for this. Very shortly the fine winter wheat will be coming along and the Government should insist that this wheat be fully utilised and that we use Irish flour. I will go so far as to say that we cannot afford any other flour at the moment with our level of borrowing. Also at this time we are importing almost 200,000 tonnes of feed grain, and most of it is rubbish. I ask the Minister of State what kind of quality controls we have on the point of entry on some of that stuff? I saw it myself. Have we quality controls on this material, and why should we import it at all? We should encourage our people to produce it and, more important, tell them how it can be stored very cheaply, and we should make some decent grants available for storage. It is something like £100,000 here or maybe a little less, but that is useless. If we are to talk about the storage of grain in any quantity we must talk about £ millions but they are £ millions well spent because all you need are simple bins, wire mesh, sacking and a small fan. Harvest it in good condition and you can keep it and mill it right out to the months of February and March. I have had that experience myself. I had even the happy experience of being able to hold feed grain with almost 100 per cent germination in my own yard and offer it to the Department in first-class condition at very little cost.

These are areas we should exploit instead of trying to make more and more massive intake points at co-ops and malting houses. We should hone up on our harvesting operations. There is a good deal of frustration. There is one snag. Whether you are dealing with a co-op or a mechant, you need to make sure that some arrangement is made about the cheques to be paid at harvest time. You cannot afford to wait until February for your money.

I move now to the area of meat production which is well dealt with in the Estimate. We are going in the right direction in negotiating for a better deal for home slaughtering. That is important. By all means we must have the live outlet. We remember the 1974-75 period when there was a waiting list a mile long at the meat factories, and again there was a good deal of frustration. We should have our live outlets, but we should make it more profitable to slaughter at home. We are running into some difficulties with ritual slaughterings. We should be able to get over that problem and comply with the requirements of the Arab States.

It is important for the workers in these factories to realise that the main problem was not the shiploads which left live, but the dramatic fall in the dairy and beef herds. I go back to my original point when, as Deputy L'Estrange said, the farmers were eating the feed corn and selling off their dairy and beef herds to pay their debts. We were back to the sixties in our cow numbers. I am glad the whole tone of this debate is one of confidence. We should be doing everything to restore the confidence of these people and let them see that this Parliament feels for them and intends to do something worthwhile for them quickly, that we are prepared to meet them at all levels, and that anything we can do within the financial constraints will be done quickly.

I am happy that the £70 heifer scheme is working well. Like other speakers I am not as happy about the calf premium scheme. Its operation is chaotic at the moment and I am afraid this chaos will have to continue for another few weeks. I suggest to the Minister that in September, when the calves start moving to the market, he should allow them to be sold in the ordinary way. There is not much to worry about when they are six months old. The person who buys the calves could then arrange for the tagging and so on. This would solve the problem. Quite a number of people do not like taking calves to the mart. On a winter's day, having a large number of calves waiting around in marts is not the best thing, as anyone who knows anything about it will admit.

The Sugar Company were mentioned. We were told that further legislation will be introduced next week. I welcome that. I was involved with the Sugar Company for a long time. I am a former chairman of the Beet Growers' Association and I am still a director of a small part of Erin Foods, East Cork Foods Limited. I welcome the investment and the vote of confidence in the Irish Sugar Company. I remember being told at a symposium — and I thought the figure was staggering — that something like 25,000 jobs are involved. In spite of their present borrowing difficulties, caused mainly by their efforts to build up the food side, the Sugar Company have been an example of what a semi-State company should be like and how they should operate. We meet many of the personnel out on the farms. Their outgoing approach is an example to all and shows us what success is all about.

On the farm machinery side of the company they succeeded in designing what I consider the only sugar beet harvester suitable for Irish conditions. They have so perfected it that they now have a fine export market for it. I am glad that something like £30 million of this money is being provided without strings. I am also very interested in the further £39 million with the strings. Nowadays we hear a great deal of talk about rationalisation. All I know about rationalisation is that the consultants usually end up by cutting down and closing off operations. We have seen far too much of that. We will not get anywhere if we adopt that attitude, and allow consultants or anyone else to tell us that is the only way out. It is not the only way out.

An upturn in the world economy could change everything. By cutting down we could find ourselves without Erin Foods, and what would we do then for our food industry? While Nítrigin Éireann Teoranta are not directly involved in this Estimate, they face the same situation of cutbacks. We should hold on and move forward. I believe we are moving out of the recession. The markets are there for all the sugar we can produce and for every pound of processed food we can produce in Erin Foods. At different times our massive overseas competitors have tried to swamp us. They got hold of our supermarket owners and they commanded pride of place in our supermarkets. In spite of all that we have survived in Erin Foods. We now have a first-class product. Last year Batchelors approached us in Erin Foods and asked us to grow and process for them. That is how good we are. Money spent in this direction will be very beneficial. It is not money down the drain. It does not need to be renewed every year. It is money well spent and badly needed.

On the machinery side in Carlow we have designers and engineers with the best brains in the world. At the moment they are grossly under-utilised because of a lack of capital in the company. I should like to see the machinery plant in Carlow going full blast and supplying many of the needs of the Irish farmers as they did in the past. On the food side I should like to see the R & D in Carlow continuing to do the good work they are doing, coming out daily with new products that are finding a place in the markets around the world.

I was asked by the spokesman on Agriculture, Deputy Dukes, to mention the problem of stray dogs. It is a very difficult matter for the sheep farmer. There is a lot of talk at the moment about rabies. If it ever appears here we are wide open because we have absolutely no dog control. We on this side of the House appeal to the Minister to bring in legislation forthwith. With all the things he must do before he can finally bring in legislation he would need to think about it now. We should adopt some of the methods employed on the Continent for the proper numbering or tattooing and licensing of dogs. This is the real answer to the problem of sheep worrying. We see photographs of carcasses of sheep and lambs in the newspapers and on television but they cannot show the real losses involved where every second ewe will lose lambs as a result of being chased by dogs. The Garda cannot cope because they have many other things to do. We suggest that there should be dog wardens in every area with proper powers, which they do not have at the moment, to collect stray dogs and check out and issue licences. There is an experiment going on at the moment here where a good dog warden calls to a certain place every month to collect the unwanted animals that people do not know how to do away with. At this particular point the dog warden collects 100 dogs per month and is giving a great service. But like our vegetable proposals this has to be done nationally, by way of legislation. The IFA have submitted reasonable suggestions to the Government. We heard that something was to be done but so far there has been no sign of legislation. I appeal to the Minister to introduce legislation quickly. It is all very well to push it over to the county councils who get 40 to 50 per cent grants at the moment for buildings and so on. But in this situation, for proper pounds to be built 100 per cent grants are necessary initially with further subventions by agreement.

ACOT were mentioned. I am on my local committee of ACOT and I am satisfied with their operation. The arrival of experts from the various farming organisations from time to time has added a lot of stature to our committee meetings. But there is still the quibble about local control. There is too much centralisation of control and that is a move in the wrong direction. Our health boards have illustrated the problems caused by taking control away from local areas. I would like to see better funding of our county committees, as we knew them, and to see them getting the necessary powers. I would like to see additional advisers appointed. Now more than ever we need practical advice. We have plenty of commercial advice, much of it misguided. We have all sorts of multinationals telling us what sprays to use and what sprays not to use. I do not go along with this at all. Most of it is unnecessary. These people are just out to sell sprays and they are doing a good job. Our ACOT advisers are hampered a lot with paperwork. It is vital that we have more clerical people so that ACOT advisers can get out into the fields and advise the farmers. I always think of an ACOT man as a man with a pair of wellingtons because he should be out in the fields talking to the farmers. This has been a tradition over the years because while we did not always believe what the Minister said, we always believed what the agricultural adviser said because he was independent and gave the right advice; he was somebody to confide in and if more of them were readily available this would be a move in the right direction.

Education of farmers is most important. With the complex nature of farming at the moment, with the growing technology of agriculture, with new methods of disease control in animals and so on, the young farmer has to be an expert in a lot of spheres. He also has to be able to deal with his income tax accounts. So education is vital. But we are running into big trouble in the south in regard to places in our agricultural colleges. We do not have nearly enough places. More than once we have suggested to various Governments that now that University College Cork have purchased Fota and there is quite a lot of development work going on, in consultation with UCC, it would be an ideal place to build an appropriate agricultural college for the training of our young farmers. It would be money well spent in an area where there is quite a broad sprectrum of farming.

In regard to An Foras Talúntais I said at one time that never before had so much been done by so few with so little for so many. The institute are doing trojan work in research and development. Their dedication in the dairying, horticultural and tillage spheres has been of great benefit to farmers. I hope that work will continue and expand and that they will never be left short of funds to carry out anything they might have in mind. Many of these people have been offered much more attractive jobs in the United States but because they are dedicated they prefer to stay with us and we are very proud of them.

In the short time I was spokesman for Tourism I got a number of representations from guesthouse owners who were very anxious to operate riding schools or a small team of trekking horses, but they were getting very little help from any Government. This type of enterprise is very suitable for our quiet country roads and if we can help to promote it, I would be all for it. We do not have the beautiful beaches or the warm weather of Las Palmas but we have something unique. We can offer fishing or horse and pony trekking holidays and we should grant aid these ventures where possible.

Very brief mention was made of the FAO and our contribution to the Third World. When I was a member of the Council of Europe I was on that subcommittee. I have been agitating that the contribution of agricultural countries should be by way of food rather than cash because the people in Third World countries need food and we should go straight to the point of need. This is something we should keep in mind.

The Land Commission have done a good job in a difficult area. Agrarian matters are fraught with pitfalls and the Commission have very delicately got over difficult land acquisitions and land distributions. People are not always satisfied with their decisions, but in my view the Commission are doing a very good job. I agree with Deputy Dukes that there is too much land in the hands of the Land Commission. That land should be divided quickly among the people who are looking for it. If there are problems of title the farm could be divided and the successful people could be told that until the problem of title was solved, they could go in as tenants. Most people would accept that.

Land is relatively cheap at present and any land coming on the market should be bought by the Land Commission. In our deputations to them we agreed that at one time because the price of land was inordinately high, they had difficulty selling it. Many of the farms which are not viable should be made viable. A person who had a conacre and made a good living should not be precluded from getting land, if he has proved himself to be a good farmer.

The Land Commission have been very strict about subdividing land. If, on the advice of a financial expert, a man decides to sell ten acres or 15 acres to get out of debt but still has enough land to make it a viable holding, he will have problems in getting the all clear from the Land Commission to subdivide. Their main reason for objecting is that the person buying the land is getting an uneconomic holding, but that should not prevent the sale of land, because the buyer might have a specific use for it. I hope my remarks will be acted on.

There is a financial crisis in farming today. I live among people who have this problem which has created a lot of gloom and a lack of confidence. This problem must be tackled quickly. For example, if a person borrows £20,000 and cannot repay it, within four years he will owe £40,000. Things are getting out of hand. If we are to set up a real rescue operation we must do so now and we need offer no apologies to anyone. Fóir Teoranta have been known to rescue industries almost annually but in 90 per cent of the cases I am talking about, a rescue package would be a once off thing. It would be a worthwhile operation, money well spent.

A sum of £1.5 million is not nearly enough to do something realistic for these people. We will have to change our approach — and here I disagree with my colleague Deputy Dukes — instead of the lending institutions deciding who will be helped I believe anyone in trouble should be automatically helped by a person or organisation designated by the Minister.

We should settle down and talk about being self-supporting and feeding ourselves. It is ridiculous that our supermarkets are full of potatoes from Cyprus, cabbages from Belgium and carrots from North Africa. There is no justification for this. However, we cannot remedy the problem in a piecemeal fashion. What is needed is an organisation of growers who could co-ordinate the operation and perhaps the new review body set up by the Minister might be able to initiate this kind of development. I am not saying it would take up all the Irish market in the first year but it would make an impact on the market. After all, there is no skill required to grow turnips, carrots or cabbages. The problem is to get a realistic price for the produce and I have had bad experience in this area. Prices would have to be fixed so that people could be guaranteed a minimum profit on what they produced and if this were done many people involved in tillage would be interested. In some areas farmers are growing grain all the time and that is not good. The operation would have to be co-ordinated by the Government, perhaps through co-operatives, Erin Foods or the Sugar Company. If the operation were done properly we could tell the people in the North African countries, in Belgium and in Holland that we did not need their produce, that we were self-sufficient. In fact, we might even be able to export to these countries in due course.

There is another aspect that affects our sales of horticulture, of milk and of bacon. I have always believed that we should adopt the same system as that used by the israelites and others of having a central marketing organisation for all our products. Admittedly, Bord Bainne and other organisations do an excellent job but we should co-ordinate all their efforts. If it should happen at any time that there was a surplus of one of our products on the overseas market and the buyers did not wish to buy that commodity we could tell them that it was a package arrangement and that they could not buy our beef, for instance, if they did not purchase our cheese. This is the kind of arrangement the Israelis and others use. We have established our products on the market place but we have encountered difficulties in some areas. Such difficulties would not arise if we had centralised marketing. Not only would we save a considerable amount in costs but we could even the use of the trade name of Kerrygold. Centralised marketing would put us in a good businesslike position in the overseas market and it would be a major help to producers.

I am an optimist so far as agriculture is concerned. I am convinced that given the help I have suggested we would be in a very good position. The unfortunate thing is that we have got ourselves into a dreadful borrowing situation. Unlike the circumstances of the early seventies, we have no difficulties with regard to placing our products in good markets. There is no need for frozen containers in Bantry Bay, new markets have opened up in the Middle East. All we need is that we give the necessary confidence to our people. Many people, and particularly the young, are dubious about breaking new ground. We are offering attractive long-term loans but people are frightened to borrow. Many of them are afraid to get involved in new ventures and are content to continue along the path of successful people but that kind of attitude would be disastrous for the agricultural industry. We should be able to tell those people to get involved in new ventures and we should support them with a real commitment.

We must accept that we sold such people down the river. In the middle seventies things were going right, people borrowed to a considerable extent and bank interest rates and inflation rates were not high. Then we turned that around by allowing inflation to spiral and we allowed bank interest rates to go completely out of control. We caused the problem and we have a duty to those people to rescue them in their present difficulties. Deputy Hyland quite rightly pointed out that the farmers who are in difficulty at the moment are not the bad farmers. The people with the problems are the good farmers who invested heavily. They would be even better if we helped them now.

I am glad to have this opportunity today to ask the Minister of State, Deputy Allen, to convey to the Government the views of those of us who are involved in this sector. The Estimate is fine as far as it goes but it is only a holding operation. We must get inflation down to a realistic level by whatever action is necessary and we must do this quickly. Then, we must help farmers to get on their feet again. I guarantee the House that if we do this farmers will not come to the Government for help or support. Next week I shall be very proud to give our EEC partners an opportunity in Dublin Castle of listening to what farmers have to say. They seem to have the idea that farmers are inept and are not capable of doing their job. We will give them an eye-opener and perhaps when it comes to price fixing on the next occasion or to putting a few pounds into the agricultural scene here they will be more amenable to do so. Some of them have the idea that all we want are hand-outs. We do not want hand-outs. To use the old proverb, "All we want is the right to fish".

It is my pleasure to have this opportunity to speak on the Estimate for Agriculture. For far too long the agricultural sector has been very badly treated by successive Governments. Very often the agricultural sector got what was left over when every other section was dealt with and had got more than their fair share of the national cake. I very much regret that farmers' incomes have dwindled so much over the past two or three years. During the mid-seventies the farmers, for the first time since the history of the State, got the opportunity to have an income almost comparable to that of the industrial worker: it was not quite comparable, but at least the gap was closing. It is a matter of deep regret to everyone in the farming community that that trend did not continue.

A lot of the domestic decisions which were taken here by the Government from 1977 to 1980 contributed to a large degree to rocking the confidence which the farming community had enjoyed during the early seventies. Cruel taxations were imposed and increased the number of people who were caught in the income tax net although many of them had not got taxable incomes. They had to employ an accountant to prepare books to show they were not making a taxable income. Subsidies were removed on fertilisers and agricultural rates and there were many other decisions which extracted vast sums of money from the farming community. All those things, together with the introduction of the pre-movement test, cost the farmer a considerable amount of money.

We have all heard the inflation figures which were announced today. It is generally accepted that every 1 per cent increase in inflation reduces family farm income by 4 per cent. It is the duty of the Government to ensure that the agricultural sector can earn enough to support their families. It is also the duty of the Government to provide the necessary back-up services, if necessary through subsidies, to ensure that agricultural output increases which, in turn, will increase agricultural incomes. The Government should ensure that input costs are controlled because at present they are frightening. This has contributed to a drop in production over the last three years. Many farmers are in the position where they cannot afford to use as much fertiliser as is necessary. The amount of lime which should be used is not being used because the farmers cannot afford it. People in the agricultural machinery business have stated they are fast reaching the situation where they will not even be able to supply spare parts for machines. The time has come for the Government to take positive action in all those areas. This process was started by Deputy Dukes when he was Minister for Agriculture. He introduced an interest subsidy for farmers who were in grave financial difficulties and whose incomes were no longer sufficient to meet their interest payments.

We had a positive approach to increasing live stock numbers by introducing the calved heifer scheme. Deputy Dukes also introduced a calf subsidy scheme which is being implemented at present. Unfortunately, it is not being implemented for this year's crop of calves. This is one area in which the Minister and the Government can show their sincerity by including all calves born since 1 January 1982.

The dairy industry, like every other section of farming, is suffering from the effects of inflation and the massive increase in the price of oil and fertilisers. The time has come for the Government to seriously examine the possibility of subsidising potash and phosphate fertilisers because, if some steps are not taken in that direction, agricultural production will fall still further. If we do not maintain the levels of potash and phosphate on our farms it will do irreperable damage to the land. I appeal to the Minister to carefully consider what can be done in this regard. I appreciate it is difficult in the present financial climate to find moneys for all the schemes one would like to see implemented. However, vast sums of money are provided overnight for certain projects. Agriculture is our greatest national industry with the greatest potential to create employment for our young people and, at the same time, stemming the emigration which is taking place from our farms.

We should have a comprehensive policy of land restructure and encourage the transfer of farms from the older generation to our young farmers. There should also be a comprehensive educational programme for young farmers. This is one of the areas where the Government could with profit examine the training provided in industry. Because of the limited number of grants available very many young men must attend agricultural colleges at their own expense. It costs a vast amount of money to give any such man the training required to go into agriculture. It must be remembered that if the same man went on an AnCO training course he would be paid for the duration of the course. The Government should examine the possibility of ensuring that any young man wishing to attend an agricultural college will be given that opportunity and that they will ensure also the laying-on of sufficient agricultural courses for this purpose. There are schemes being introduced now at Government level specifying that a young man to qualify must have agricultural training. The Government should examine the possibility of having the same guidelines apply here as do in respect of the training of an industrial worker.

With our ever-reducing numbers of cattle I believe that the new subsidy scheme will help restore the numbers at our marts. It is important for all of us that we have a thriving, live cattle export trade together with that in carcase beef. It is vital that those two outlets be kept open, that we protect and encourage our live export trade while encouraging our factories to become involved in the carcase trade, where tremendous opportunities exist for them in the packaging and processing of our beef. The Government should avail of every opportunity to encourage those factories to go into that business in the best possible market outlets at the best possible price. Too much of our beef leaves the country in carcase form. Here there is tremendous potential for our farmers, industrial workers and the economy generally, giving valuable employment in our factories, which are practically closed down at present, not because of the live export trade as we are often led to believe by certain sections of our community but rather by the massive reduction in cattle numbers that has occurred over the last five years. That is why I believe one of the best schemes ever introduced here has been the calved heifer scheme. I hope every effort is made to ensure that the subsidies payable under that scheme benefit every section of the farming community and that the Department deal in a more flexible way with the clauses in regard to interest subsidies. If a farmer increases his breeding herd by two, three, ten animals or whatever then he should receive the benefit of any subsidy available. It must be remembered by so doing a farmer is playing a major part in our economy, increasing not alone his production but also creating jobs downstream.

I am delighted to note that our sheep trade has improved so much in recent years. For far too long the sheep farmer received a very low income, not because he was not producing an excellent commodity but rather because he was unable to get a fair price for it or receive fair compensation for his work. Every possible effort should be made to encourage the breeding of the right type of lamb ensuring that it is sold at the best possible price on the most advantagous markets.

Very often horticultural production is neglected by the Department and does not receive the attention it warrants. The previous speaker referred to the amount of vegetables we import. We can grow vegetables of as good if not better quality than anywhere else. Again with regard to potatoes we can produce as good if not better quality than anywhere else in the world. Equally we can compete with any other part of Europe in regard to other commodities. The fact that we import such a vast quantity of vegetables and fruit is a sad reflection on our industry. Every effort should be made to encourage our people with the expertise in that business to extend and become more competitive. There is no question but that we have the expertise and can grow the commodities. The major problem encountered is that there has been no guaranteed price for them.

I would ask the Minister to ascertain what can be done in that respect. Lack of a guaranteed price has been the reason that such produce is not grown. Very often when people grow potatoes and other vegetables they find they are unable to sell them. That is the reality of the situation. The Government should also use every means at their disposal to encourage some form of organised marketing. Unfortunately a lot of such produce is at present marketed in a haphazard manner. This is an area in which we as a people have not become involved, an area to which we have not designated the necessary money or devoted sufficient time in the processing, packaging and marketing of our horticultural produce. The Government at all times should encourage any firm engaging in that business. I know of one such company at present in dire financial straits and I would appeal to the Minister to use his good offices to ensure that they receive every assistance possible from the IDA; I shall supply the name later. They have already sought assistance from the IDA but, because of the number of applications received already, the response has been very slow. Indeed that company is providing a much-needed service in my part of the country. They are marketing vegetable products grown there and it is essential that local growers have this facility on their doorstep.

The scheme set up with the intention of enticing farmers to change from hay to silage and increase their tonnage of winter feed is a most important one. We have only to look at the weather today to see how difficult it is to provide winter feed from hay any year. Every effort should be made to encourage more farmers into silage production. The Department of Agriculture could play a major role in relation to small contractors particularly in the west of Ireland. Those people only have small machinery. Some of the farms are fragmented. They might be in four or five different places about four miles apart. Most of those farmers would not cut any more than about ten acres of silage.

Many of those small contractors are no longer able to stay in business because of the cost of purchasing machinery and the cost of running it. They have a low output because of the fragmentation and the size of the fields. They often have to work on land which is not suitable for the sophisticated machinery that is used for sliage making. I appeal to the Minister to examine the possibility of allowing those small contractors to take advantage of the subsidy provided under the group fodder scheme. I believe this is in line with the principle of this scheme. If those small contractors can avail of the advantages of this scheme they will be given the opportunity to buy a harvester and a trailer and get a subsidy for it. I do not believe the cost of this would be very great.

We all know the problems in relation to farm modernisation grants. There is the difficulty of getting land, and getting an inspector to examine the land with a view to allocating a grant. The delays are scandalous. I cannot understand why the Department introduce a scheme and do not provide the necessary staff to operate it. I am speaking particularly about the western drainage grants where one can wait up to two years before a departmental inspector comes out to ascertain if the land needs to be drained, which the farmer already knows, design a scheme and allocate a grant for it. The Minister should do everything possible to cut those delays and ensure the farming community get the service they require. I understand it may not be possible to get this service on call but I believe that having to wait for longer than three months is far too long. Every effort should be made to cut the length of time a farmer has to wait for an inspector to call. The necessary staff should be put on the field.

Is it only since we increased the grants that those long delays have occurred?

What period is the Minister of State talking about?

Since we came back into power and increased the grants to 50 per cent.

No. I guarantee the delays are there for the last three or four years and Fianna Fáil coming into power had no bearing on it. This is very undesirable. It is holding up the progress of the western drainage scheme and a lot of the progress that would normally take place on farms. I appeal to the Minister to make the necessary staff available.

It is important to have costings updated. Very often the costings are only a small percentage of the real cost, particularly in relation to land buildings and land reclamation. Those costings should be updated and brought to a realistic level. This should be done twice a year. It is not sufficient to adjust costings and leave them for two years before they are adjusted again. Very often after a particular scheme is decided on for a reclamation grant or some other grant a farmer can have problems getting that scheme under way and it could be 12 months or two years before it is completed. It is very unfair to expect that man to take a grant that was decided on two years previously. Instead of those grants working out at 50 per cent of 30 per cent, depending on the particular job, they are about half what they should be. The Minister should ensure that there are realistic costings for those schemes.

The disadvantaged area scheme is one of the greatest schemes which had been introduced. It helps to provide aid for the poorer areas, those deemed disadvantaged, where for many years the farming community had to live on very small incomes. This scheme, together with the classification of part of that area as severely handicapped, which allows the farming community to enjoy headage payments, is a very good scheme. I appeal to the Government to ensure that the re-examination taking place at the moment in relation to the definition of boundaries for severely handicapped areas is completed as soon as possible and is not allowed to drag on for another year or two. This is one of the ways the Government can increase the income of the farming community in the west. They can give a direct increase and enjoy a 50 per cent subsidy from Brussels towards the cost. The Minister should increase the rate of grants paid because the headage payments at the moment are only about half what could be paid. He should ensure that the maximum which can be paid under this scheme is paid to those farmers.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 4 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 29 June 1982.
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