asked the Minister for Justice if he will introduce a comprehensive free legal aid system in civil cases.
11.
Ceisteanna—Questions Oral Answers. - Civil Legal Aid.
10.
asked the Minister for Justice if he will introduce legislation to provide a statutory basis for the present scheme of civil legal aid and advice; and the reforms, if any, he intends to introduce to the scheme.
With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Question Nos. 10 and 11 together.
My first priority in relation to the scheme of civil legal aid is to provide, as soon as resources permit, for the expansion on a geographical basis of the services provided by the centres. The Deputy will be aware that scarcity of financial resources led to the curtailment of the plans for expansion during the term of the previous Government, and there is little prospect of an alleviation of the financial situation during the current year. However, I am pleased to be able to say that a considerable expansion in the volume of services being provided is now being achieved following the opening of a new large centre in Dublin on 3 June 1982.
My general intention would be to consider the possibility of substantial changes in the scheme itself only when the matter of the expansion of the number of centres has been satisfactorily dealt with.
As to Deputy Shatter's question which relates to proposals for future legislative changes, I would refer the Deputy to the answer I gave him to written questions on 1 April (Dail Reports Volume 333, Columns. 1335 and 1336) when I referred to the difficulty of making useful statements at Question Time about proposals for legislation. I can, of course, say that it has always been the intention to put the civil legal aid scheme on a statutory basis as soon as adequate experience of its operation in non-statutory form had been gained.
Would the Minister not agree that it is totally unsatisfactory that a scheme involving the expenditure of considerable State funds has not been provided for by statute, that the provisions of that application and the criteria laid down for receiving legal aid through the scheme are effectively determined by Ministerial diktat through orders and regulations issued from his office? Would he not agree that for the purpose of ensuring that those who are entitled to legal aid are fully aware of their rights and entitlements it is desirable as a matter of urgency that the necessary statutory provisions be introduced in this House?
At the time of the introduction of the scheme the Government decided that it would be appropriate in the first instance to establish how the scheme was working and monitor it during the period of operation as a non-statutory scheme. When finances are available for expansion of this scheme, consideration can be given to putting it on a statutory basis.
Would the Minister not agree that the introduction of legislation to give a statutory base to this scheme would not result in any additional cost and that the legislation could provide for an expansion of the scheme as State finances permit? Is the Minister aware that this scheme does not satisfy the criteria laid down by the European Court of Human Rights in relation to rights to legal aid as it deprives persons who cannot afford to pay solicitors of the right to bring constitutional cases under the legal aid scheme and also deprives social welfare applicants of the right to be represented before social welfare tribunals, pursuant to the legal aid scheme? Would the Minister not agree that these omissions are contrary to the original proposals and recommendations of the Pringle committee? Would he indicate whether he intends to expand the scheme to cover each of these important areas before this country again finds itself before the European Court of Human Rights?
Unfortunately the Deputy's colleague in the previous Government made no financial provision for expansion of this scheme.
I am talking about legislation.
Would the Minister agree that it is the basic right of every citizen to have full and free access to the courts and to the system of justice of the State and that to enable each citizen to have that right requires a full and comprehensive legal aid system, which is at present denied? Would the Minister consider bringing in a comprehensive legal aid system on the lines of the English system, under which solicitors who act under the scheme contribute 10 per cent of the costs they receive into a fund which is used to finance future legal aid to others who have recourse to the scheme? Would the Minister concede the point that it is a basic civil right of the citizen to have that access and that the legal aid system is required for that purpose? Would he consider that system of contribution?
I would be interested in receiving any information or advice on any matter that would help to improve the scheme, but at present the limitations on the scheme are due to financial constraints.
In view of the fact that persons in areas outside the major cities are totally denied access to free legal aid centres — I refer particularly to my own constituency — would the Minister consider as a matter of urgency the possibility of farming out legal aid work to private practioners?
They are doing it.
There may not be the requirement for fully staffed legal aid centres in smaller towns. Would he consider allowing legal aid work to be done by private practioners?
While I sympathise with the claim made by the Deputy, finance has not been made available for the expansion of this scheme.
Has the Minister read the Pringle Report?
Not recently, but I have read it in the past.
Perhaps the Minister did not take it in.
What is the delay experienced by a person seeking access to the scheme in getting an appointment at one of the centres?
Prior to the opening recently of the new centre, two of the other centres in Dublin were closed for a considerable time because of the backlog of applications for legal aid. There is a very heavy demand on the centres.
How long?
It is hoped that the third centre will relieve that pressure to a considerable degree. The wish of the Government would be to expand the scheme but it is not possible at present either in Dublin or in other areas.
Is the Minister aware that most applicants who seek legal aid are unaware of the fact that if they are refused they have the right of appeal? Is he also aware that in some instances for the small minority who exercise the right of appeal it can take over six months before a decision is made? In delicate areas of law such as family law, where people are seeking immediate advice in respect of matters relating to adoption or marital difficulties, this delay can greatly prejudice the rights of the parties concerned. Would the Minister look into this matter and ensure that each applicant is advised of his right to appeal in the event of an initial application being turned down, and would he ensure that these appeals are expedited?
I will have the matter looked into.