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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 6 Jul 1982

Vol. 337 No. 5

Finance Bill, 1982: Committee Stage (resumed).

Amendment No. 33b was moved by Deputy Gregory-Independent on 30 June 1982:
In page 17, subsection (2) (a), lines 31 and 32, to delete subparagraph (i) and substitute the following:—
"(i) at any time during the year of assessment he was the age of 65 years or upwards or if under the age of 65 years he was at any time during the year of assessment in receipt of a taxable income (after deductions of normal allowances) of less than £4,500 per annum, and,".
—(Deputy Gregory-Independent).
Debate resumed on the following amendment to the amendment:
In subparagraph (i) to delete "£4,500" and substitute "£2,000".
—(Deputy B. Desmond).

We have had a long and interesting debate on this subject of the appropriate rent relief to be allowed people against their income tax liability in view of the fact that people who are buying their own houses can receive rent relief on interest payments whereas people living in rented accommodation can get no relief whatever in this regard.

As I said before, my party believe that we should aim ultimately at having a comprehensive system of tax relief for rent payments available to everybody to remove the present distortion in the tax code against renting accommodation. We also believe that this would help a group who, generally speaking, have a lower income and are in a less fortunate position in relation to housing than those living in their own houses. I refer to people who are tenants.

Deputy Gregory introduced an amendment originally to the Finance Bill, which would have extended this idea of income tax relief on rent to about 53 per cent of the total tax paying public by extending it to people with taxable incomes of less than £4,500. I stated during the course of the debate on that amendment that my party were in favour in principle of doing something to help the lower income group but we felt, in terms of the cost of the amendment and also because it was helping more than half of the tax paying public if they were in rented accommodation, that Deputy Gregory's amendment was going further than we could afford to go and, perhaps it would be desirable to go at this time. We considered the matter carefully in the meantime and we have come to the conclusion that the appropriate relief, which would give practical expression to the principle which is accepted by all sides of the House that the low income groups should receive some relief on their income tax in regard to rent, is to propose a relief which is certainly very modest but which would extend solely to those with taxable incomes of less than £1,000. This relief would extend to approximately the 10 per cent lowest paid of all income tax payers. The cost would be nil this year, about £3.5 million in 1983 rising to a full cost probably in 1984 of around £5.5 million.

I believe this is a modest amendment designed to help exclusively the low income group and in particular that segment of that group who are living in rented accommodation and whose situation, in addition to income consideration, is diminished because they do not live in their own houses but are living in insecure accommodation. I believe, while the proposal costs some money, it must be stressed that it will not cost anything at all this year and, therefore, does not affect the current budget deficit by one penny. It will cost something next year but we have the time to make provision for it between now and next year. I believe, because it is confined to the low income group and confined to the lowest 10 per cent of all income tax payers, that it is a proposal which is very selective in the way in which it will operate and represents a concession in principle to the idea of assistance to the lower paid in this matter.

Obviously I do not rule out the possible extension of this concession in future years. That will depend on available finances in future years. This proposal is a modest one which will not cost anything this year, will cost £3.3 million next year, will help the low paid and is consistent with the policy my party sought to implement in Government of extending income tax rents relief.

When I spoke previously on this matter I referred to the gross inequity in the present situation vis-à-vis people who are tenants and people who are house owners in relation to the income tax concessions to which they are entitled and the degree of deductability of the rent they pay in the one case and the mortgage payments they pay in the other case as allowances against their income tax. I want to deal now with the position of what must be quite a substantial category of people, people who are neither house owners nor tenants but would be prepared to take up tenancy if they could find suitable accommodation at a rent they could afford. There are many families, some with children, who are on the local authority housing lists who would be anxious to take up tenancy of premises if they were available for them at a rent within their means. The present situation is that the rent they have to pay is money they have to find after they have suffered fully from deductions made under PAYE.

In the case of a person setting out to buy a house that person examines his or her financial situation, looks at the price of the house and the deposit he or she has available. That person looks at how much the monthly repayments would have to be on a mortgage. That person takes into account the fact that the mortgage repayments will be allowable against income tax. That has the effect of producing an improvement in that person's income and expenditure situation. The other person who is not in the position to go out to buy a house is looking around to see if he might be in a position to rent accommodation for himself and his family and he is debarred from doing that at the moment because the full rent he has to find has to be on an after tax basis. That produces a glaring inequity. If that were to be remedied in whole or in part, as is sought by the amendments put down, it would have an immediate effect of enabling many people to obtain for themselves and their families a rented dwelling, a house or a flat. They would be put in the position, by reason of having that income tax allowance against that rent, of being able to afford to take up the tenancy of a premises which under the present position they could not afford.

The Government have said they are very anxious to stimulate the building industry generally. Everybody in the House would very willingly and very readily subscribe to that objective. If the Minister conceded the amendment in whole or in part, or if the House accepted it, it would provide a stimulus to the construction industry because it would mean a large group of people would be in a position to rent and obtain houses and flats which they cannot afford to do under the present situation. It is the same concession that is accorded to people who set out to buy. It is reasonable and equitable that at least an equivalent concession should be accorded to the person who sets out to rent.

The situation works inequitably in another way also. In the case of a person who obtains a mortgage and makes repayments to a local authority, building society or whatever, for the most part those mortgages and the rate of interest applicable are at a fixed rate of repayment. I am aware that there are some variations from time to time in the case of building society mortgages but, by and large, not by more than 1 or 2 per cent and, on the whole, the interest payable on foot of a mortgage remains static during the period of the mortgage. Undoubtedly house purchasers find it extremely difficult to meet repayments in the first few years. But it is also undoubtedly true that as the years go by and if the person's earnings rise in proportion to inflation the burden of the repayment reduces substantially in real terms arising from the effects of inflation. It continues to do that with the very high and unacceptable levels of inflation we have. The position improves very much as far as the house purchaser is concerned.

What is the position regarding the tenant? It is quite the reverse. He has to find his rent on an after-tax basis throughout, which is a serious burden. To enable him to pay a rent of £100 a week, he must earn £130 or £140 a week and suffer a deduction of tax before he meets his rent. As the years go by the position is that, far from his rent reducing in real terms, it increases with inflation. He will find that his rent is upped to take account of the inflationary situation. That argument has particular force now that the whole question of rent control has been thrown into disarray and a question mark hangs over what the ultimate situation will be regarding rent control. The tenant sees his rent maintained at the same level of inflation whereas the house purchaser is in the reverse situation. This highlights in another way the imbalance and inequity which exists between the two categories.

I do not have the relevant statistics — perhaps the Minister has or perhaps the Minister for the Environment would be the appropriate person to have them — but there was very little if any house construction undertaken over the last few years for the purpose of renting. If that is the position, it is to be regretted. The Minister should take steps to encourage such building.

I was concerned about a provision in a previous Finance Bill which gave a tax concession to a developer who developed housing for rent and found that the income derived from that would come to him tax free. That is putting the effect of a tax free concession at the wrong end — at the lessor's end rather than at the tenant's end. Quite clearly the tenant is in far greater need of it. If this concession is given to him, it would stimulate the house construction industry and would enable many people to enter the rental market and obtain dwellings for themselves and their families. There is no shortage of people in that situation who would be anxious, ready and willing to rent houses and flats if they could afford to do so. If the House accepts the amendment, many families who are not at present in a position to find accommodation for themselves under any category will be able to do so. They are not in a position to buy or rent and they find themselves on the long finger on local authority waiting lists. I ask the Minister to make some concession in this regard or alternatively, that the House pass the amendment.

I am not quite clear what amendment we are talking about. On this question, we have amendment No. 33 (b) in a name of Deputy Gregory with a figure of £4,500. There is an amendment to that in the name of Deputy Desmond with a figure of £2,000. Then there is an amendment by Deputy Gregory from £4,500 to £2,000 and now there is another amendment in the name of Deputy Bruton bringing the taxable income to £1,000. I am not sure which we are discussing.

Amendment No. 33 (b) has been moved. The amendment to the amendment has been moved. They are the only two but, in so far as amendment No. 33 (c) and amendment No. 33 (d) pertain to the same matter, for the purposes of debate they are being discussed with the other two.

Thank you. I do not want to repeat what I said the last day when we had a full discussion on this section. It must be accepted that these amendments are unworkable in their present form. The amendments would not give a married couple double a single person's allowance. That must be taken into account. There is no provision for marginal relief in either of these amendments.

At the request of a number of Deputies the last day, I said I would be prepared to have a look at the points made, without commitment, between now and Report Stage, because of the wording of them and the fact that the figures do not take account of particular items. I am sure Deputies do not wish for hours' more discussion on this point.

In relation to the comparisons Deputy Taylor gave there is no answer to them or argument against them. This is a new scheme. It is implemented as outlined originally in Deputy Bruton's budget. Obviously its implementation and operation and the experience gained from that will lead to pressures to have it extended in one form or another. I have said that the kind of amendments before me are unworkable. The major point could be that they do not take account of the judgment in the Murphy case where a married couple must get double the single person's allowance and there is no provision for marginal relief for which in any such issue of taxation there is provision.

It is easy for Deputy Bruton to say that this will not cost any money this year. But I recall in debates here and many times in public Deputy Bruton saying that it was not so much what the budget deficit might be in this financial year but what it would be in the following year arising from actions this year. Deputy Desmond has also made that point on numerous occasions. One cannot just transfer the £3.5 million or £7 million, whatever it might be, into next year because it is not a cost this year and say that it is so much further down the road and that we do not necessarily have to be as restrictive as we might be in relation to acceptance. I made the points on this the last day and have repeated some of them today. I request the Deputies to withdraw the amendments in the context of what I have said. I can have another look at them between now and Report Stage without commitment.

The Minister has made a fair point in saying that I have at all times expressed concern not just about this year's deficit but also about the deficit next year and in subsequent years. I agree that the fact that this amendment would not cost anything this year is not a compelling reason on its own for accepting it. On the other hand we are talking about perhaps one of the most deserving groups in our society — people on low incomes who are living in rented accommodation. I believe that the amendment I am proposing is one that we should be able to find the money for next year. There are many other areas where economies could be made, and if they are made in order to help low income people in private rented accommodation the net balance must be favourable in terms of social justice. Even in difficult economic circumstances we must seek to reform our tax system in the interests of social justice. When very generous allowances are given to much more prosperous sections of the community in the form of interest relief and other reliefs on the income tax code — reliefs I was seeking to reduce but which the Minister said for technical reasons he has not been able to reduce — it is no harm to try to help people who are not being helped, as my amendment seeks to do. Between now and next year perhaps the Minister will have overcome the difficulties referred to in regard to interest relief and may well be able to find sufficient money from that source which will more than outweigh the small cost that will derive from the very limited amendment I am proposing, which is less than one-quarter as generous as what Deputy Gregory-Independent originally proposed and only half as generous as what Deputy Desmond proposed. It is in real terms merely a token provision for the lower income private rented tenant.

I know that we have almost exhausted the debate on this amendment, but I want to bring in one final comment from my party's point of view with regard to this amendment. Private tenants are the one unsubsidised housing section in our community, yet they pay the highest fraction of their income on housing. Figures from the latest household budget survey, which each Deputy should have, show that mortgage householders pay 11.4 per cent of their income on housing, local authority tenants pay half of that rate — about 5.7 per cent — of their income on housing, but private rented tenants on average pay 15 per cent of their income on rent. I will give the figures again. Mortgage holders pay about 11.4 per cent of their income, local authority tenants 11.5 per cent and private rented tenants about 15 per cent of their income on housing. Private rents in 1979 averaged, according to the national household budget survey, about £11.14 a week. Today rents range from a minimum of £ 15 to £20 per week for a flat or between £40 and £50 a week for a three-bedroom house, and for a family that would not be great housing.

Finally, I make the double-barrelled point which has been made by colleague Deputy Taylor, that we are asking for a subsidy of about £4 million. That is peanuts in the context of other relief provisions we have. We subsidise mortgage interest for house purchasers to the tune of £40 million or perhaps £50 million a year and we give £4,000 grants to such purchasers. On top of that, lest I be accused of having a comment in just that area, we also subsidise local authority tenants to the tune of £90 million a year. Contrasting these subsidised sectors and the very modest £4 million proposal which we have here for those whose housing payments are the heaviest, I think this is a reasonable amendment. I do not think there is a differential between Deputy Bruton's amendment and mine, but in the event of mine not being acceptable to the House I would be prepared to support Deputy Bruton's amendment. However, I feel obliged to press mine. The amount of money is very small and we have spent an inordinate amount of time discussing the amendment. What I am proposing is very simple. Everybody earning up to £115 per week, provided such person is married and has two children, will get a degree of rent tax rebate. Deputy Bruton's amendment would bring it down to £95 a week and in the context that average earnings here are around £140 to £150 per week, persons earning that would not get such relief. I am talking about male adult, transportable goods industry sector average earnings of roughly £148.50 a week. Therefore, our proposal is a very modest one of relief and I press it. If I am still in the land of living with so many amendments to the amendment, 33b is my amendment that would be taken first, or would it be the one for the lesser amount?

Deputy, if you ask me a question and continue to speak it is not easy for me to answer it. Your amendment is not 33b. Deputy Gregory-Independent's amendment is No. 33b to which you tabled an amendment. The procedure is that the amendment to the amendment is the first question to be put. Is the Deputy anxious that the Chair put that question?

Yes. Sorry, is not the first question you put that the section stands?

No. 1 have indicated to the House that the question to be put is: "That the amendment to the amendment be made."

I am not sure that I know what is happening.

We could take it that Deputy's Gregory amendment 33b is more or less in the form of a motion to which Deputy Desmond tabled an amendment. Unless Deputy Desmond wishes to withdraw his amendment the first question to be put is: "That the amendment to the amendment be made."

Mr. Bruton

That is the £2,000.

That is Deputy Desmond's amendment to Deputy Gregory's proposed amendment 33b.

The procedure on previous sections where there were also amendments tabled seems to have been different.

I think the Deputy is overlooking the point that what we had previously were, so to speak, pure amendments to the sections. In this case the position is compounded by the fact that we have an amendment to an amendment.

In the event that Deputy Desmond's amendment to the amendment is (a) successful and (b) unsuccessful could the Chair indicate what will happen after that?

On behalf of everybody perhaps I would take the optimistic view and assume that he is unsuccessful. Then we will put the question on Deputy Gregory's amendment. That question will be "That the words proposed to be deleted stand".

In the event that that is successful, that the Government win that vote, that disposes of the question and nothing else arises?

That would mean that subsequent amendments 33c and 33d would automatically fall if 33b falls.

(Dublin South-Central): We are still on the amendment?

Yes, of course. I think I may take it that Deputy Desmond is not withdrawing his amendment to the amendment — or is he?

The Deputy is pressing his amendment?

I have no option, I have spoken at length on it.

(Dublin South-Central): I should like to say a few words. I am not sure which amendment is being put.

There should not be any difficulty. We have what we may consider a motion before the House and that is Deputy Gregory's amendment 33b, to which an amendment has been tabled by Deputy Desmond. That is the amendment to the amendment. Additionally we have other amendments, 33c and 33d, one in the name of Deputy Gregory and the other in the name of Deputy Bruton which because they are alternatives are being discussed together. The question that will be put after all that is the question on the amendment to the amendment tabled by Deputy Desmond.

(Dublin South-Central): It is difficult to understand the minds of some Opposition Deputies. As the Chair rightly said, the first amendment we had was one from Deputy Gregory asking that £4,500 per annum be considered. I can see that these amendments are very laudable, something we would all welcome but I can also see the problem at this time in our present financial conditions. We all agree that rented dwellings particularly in this city, but also throughout the country I am sure, are offered at exorbitant rates. I listened to Deputy Taylor speaking of a previous Finance Bill when he said that the concessions probably put the cart before the horse as regards development of flats. In my opinion the best way to bring down the price of rented accommodation is to increase the supply. So long as there is a scarcity, no matter what we do in regard to giving concessions without doubt it will be eaten up in increased rents.

I would welcome — I know it has already been put into a Finance Bill — the encouragement of developers to ensure that the supply is equal to the demand. When we have sufficient rented accommodation, the high prices now been charged will come down. Naturally, when there is scarcity prices rocket. The important thing is to increase the supply of rented accommodation. I defend the previous Finance Bill which gave concessions and encouragement in respect of private rented accommodation; this is something we have not encouraged through the years as we should have done. We see a massive influx of students into this city at the start of the university year each year and there is no accommodation for them. Without doubt the prices charged are exorbitant but that is in consequence of the scarcity. That is what we must tackle so as to encourage the provision of more private rented accommodation.

I am not sure what section of the community Deputy Bruton is aiming at in his amendment when he speaks of taxable income of £1,000. I doubt if he would alleviate the hardship of very many people who would be paying for rented accomodation. I believe that the majority or at least a substantial number of low incomes in rented accommodation come into the category of rent-controlled accommodation. As we know a landlord and tenant Bill is going through the House and I think it will embrace many of those people. I understand there are about 35,000 tenants in that category. When they are covered by the new Bill which will be signed very shortly into law, their rents will increase substantially and at a future date when a proper rents tribunal is set up and a proper register taken of the number of rented dwellings, I would consider it appropriate to give some concession then in the nature of setting rent against income tax. As has been pointed out, a similar concession is enjoyed at present by house purchasers. I think it is a big concession but we should look at it in a broader context and see if we can get a proper register of rent controlled houses. Then we can see the standard of accommodation. If we pass any of these three amendments now, there is the danger that always exists that landlords will increase rents while we have no proper register.

I should like to have a comprehensive survey carried out on the whole question to see what is the appropriate number of rented dwellings, how many can be properly regulated and perhaps supervised in the future. I doubt if giving an ad hoc concession would entirely benefit the people we want to benefit. We have the concept enshrined in this year's Finance Bill in regard to those over 65 who will qualify for such relief. I believe that will be the first step in trying to establish some form of register of private landlords. The information that the Revenue Commissioners and the Minister will have gathered in the implementation of the concession for those over 65 will be of considerable help in designing a future budget.

I can see merit in all these amendments and there is no doubt the Minister is also sympathetic to them. It would be unwise at this time to press these amendments because I do not believe they have been properly researched as to how many dwellings will be taken into consideration. This is something this House should take into consideration when discussing future Finance Bills and future budgets.

If there is a vote, I understand the first vote will take place on Deputy Desmond's amendment which will reduce the figure in Deputy GregoryIndependent's amendment from £4,500 to £2,000. That is purely amending the form of the amendment and will reduce the cost. That is hardly something to which anybody would object. The next amendment will be "That the words proposed to be deleted stand". If that is passed, all attempts at rent relief for low income people, except for those over 65 years of age, will be rejected and the other amendments, including Deputy Desmond's, Deputy Gregory-Independ-ent's and my own, will be ruled out of court. That is not an acceptable proposition.

The argument put forward by the Minister, apart from that of cost which is not very significant, is that he will consider this matter between now and Report Stage. He said that last Thursday and there were two and a half working days in which he could have considered it. Between now and Report Stage we have only one working day. If he was to bring in any concession, he could as easily come up with it now as he could on Thursday. Between the end of this debate — 7.00 p.m. Wednesday night — and the opening of the Report Stage on Thursday morning, I do not believe he will come up with any blinding flash of insight as to how he might get around what is now impossible. If he was going to do that, he would have come up with his suggestions by now. He has had more time since the last time this was discussed than he will have between the end of Committee Stage and the beginning of Report Stage. While I do not wish to impute a lack of sincerity on the part of the Minister, in practical terms there must be some doubt about his assurance that he might be able to do something on Thursday that he is not prepared to do today, Tuesday.

I would like to quote what Deputy Bruton said last January when he was talking about an extension to cover all tenancies. He said it could not be afforded and in order to focus first on the area of greatest need the allowance would be made available to taxpayers aged 65 and upwards who lived in private rented accommodation. That is exactly what is contained in section 5 of this Bill. When Deputy Bruton questions my sincerity, he should recall what he said last January.

We have debated this subject for two days and we have all become convinced that it is possible to do now what one might not have thought possible last January, that is, to frame an amendment which would help low income people only so far as rented accommodation is concerned. My amendment helps the lowest of the low income people. It is not generous relief; it does not go very far. If debate means anything, it is that we must learn from it. I have learned from this debate that such an amendment is possible, at a not unreasonable cost. I did not realise it was as feasible as it is, given the cost elements that have come into focus. Therefore, I believe it is reasonable to make that amendment given that there has been very wide consensus right across the House that something should be done in this area. If debates of this sort mean anything, they should lead to constructive conclusions. My amendment is a constructive conclusions to a long and basically agreeable debate.

The Deputy knows, as a former Minister for Finance, that these are budgetary matters. I have said, as have other Fianna Fáil Deputies, that one can accept the principle of doing something in this area but the three amendments in their present form are unworkable, do not make any provision for marginal relief and would be flying in the face of the constitutional questions raised in the Murphy case because they would not give the married couple double the single person's allowance. I have made those three specific important points which are relevant to this discussion. I have been asked by a number of Deputies over the last weekend and again today to look at the outcome of this debate and the content of these amendments, and I said I was prepared to do so between now and Report Stage.

My amendment does not deal with the Murphy case and its implications. I am prepared to go along with what the Minister said on that. My amendment is solely concerned with extending this relief to people with taxable incomes of less than £1,000——

They are all the same ——

They are all attempting to give relief. In regard to the Murphy case, I am not making the same proposal as Deputy Gregory-Independent because I accept what the Minister said as being a reasonable interpretation of the Supreme Court decision. The Minister said that this amendment was impractical because of the absence of marginal relief.

Under subsection (5) the Revenue Commissioners have power to make regulations for the purpose of giving effect to this section with respect to the allowance granted by the section or to any matter ancillary or incidental thereto. There is a power in this section for the Revenue Commissioners, if the Dáil accepts one or other of these amendments, to make whatever arrangements are necessary in regard to marginal relief. To argue that on technical grounds it is not possible to accept this amendment is not correct.

The Deputy must know that one does not use regulations for giving relief.

The intention of the House in regard to the matter will be made clear if the amendment is adopted. The section says that the Revenue Commissioners may make regulations for the purpose of giving effect to this section with respect to the allowance granted by this section or to any matter ancillary or incidental thereto. I believe the marginal relief issue is ancillary to the basic question. It is not the intention of the House that a person with a taxable income of £1,001 would be far worse off than the person with a taxable income of £999. To ensure that did not happen would be ancillary to the intention of the House as expressed in whatever amendment is passed. I believe the regulation-making power is sufficient to get over whatever technical problems the Minister may be reasonably worried about.

If the Minister had come forward on Committee Stage with an amendment, he could have got over whatever problems there were with all the expertise available to him in the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners. He has not done so and all we can rely on is the regulation-making power which is in the section. That is an adequate rebuttal of the argument in regard to marginal relief.

I do not want to go on repeating the arguments I presented in this discussion last week. At the time my principal point was to suggest that my motivation in putting down the original amendment was to try to direct income tax concessions to a section of the community that is in great social need. I was hoping a more equitable approach would be introduced in the section by identifying those tenants most in need. For that reason I put down two alternative amendments to stimulate discussion and to produce a consensus approach to what everyone who has participated in the discussion so far has accepted is a major social problem.

In this context it is logical that following discussion on the various contributions I should welcome Deputy Desmond's amendment to my amendment. While I welcome the further discussion which resulted from that, I cannot help but feel that if we ever get to the stage where we begin to discuss Deputy Bruton's further amendment some other Deputy will circulate yet another amendment reducing the taxable income level even further. I wonder if a ruling from the Chair is in order in this regard. Can Deputies, ad infinitum, go on circulating amendments while discussion is already in progress? In Deputy Desmond's case the discussion on my amendment was virtually completed when a further amendment was circulated. Is there anything in Standing Orders governing this problem? I can see a situation arising during this week when we could have innumerable amendments all directed towards the same principle and towards the same attempt to bring about the same remedy but getting nowhere.

Perhaps I can help the Deputy. There is a requirement that two days' notice should be given with regard to a proposed amendment. On the other hand, there have been departures from that in the past. Personally I do not know if word has been conveyed to Deputy Bruton that his amendment has been accepted. Perhaps it has, but I must point out that it is not I who makes that decision. When I came to the Chair references were made to the amendment and while it had not been moved discussion was taking place on it. I cannot say to the Deputy if the amendment will come before the House formally.

I have not received any communication to the effect that it is not in order and I must presume it is in order.

I think this should be clarified. We may discuss something in the House but we do not know if an item which has been circulated has been accepted. Surely we should have a ruling on that matter?

The direct reply to that is that the amendment has not been reached.

It has been reached in the sense that it is being discussed.

I cannot prevent reference being made to it. I am indicating to the Deputy the technical position. The amendment has not been reached and a decision has not been made on whether it is accepted or not.

Could we have that decision?

It is the Ceann Comhairle's office that will make that decision at the appropriate time. I am not privy to the information. I do not know when it was submitted. I have not got the details and I am not able to say what is the position. However, I am telling the Deputy that we are not inhibited from discussing Deputy Gregory's amendment No. 33b or Deputy Desmond's amendment to that amendment.

If I am to take the spirit of my own amendment, that it is largely an attempt to identify tenants most in need of assistance, I must welcome Deputy Desmond's amendment to my amendment which effectively reduces the taxable income level to £2,000, which is less than half of the income level I suggested. The principle here is all-important. I set out to start that process in motion and I think Deputy Desmond's amendment does that. Indeed, other speakers have gone further, and should the Minister be prepared to move even part of the way towards this amendment I believe he would have the support of all Members judging from what the various speakers have said so far.

One aspect of the debate has caused me a certain amount of concern, namely, the failure of the Minister and his officials to give any indication of the amount that would be gained by way of taxation on the previously undeclared income of many landlords. Equally, there has been no indication of the amount of taxation presently accruing from the taxation of landlords despite the statement of the Revenue Commissioners that significant progress had been made in the past few years and that a campaign had been carried out to tax landlords to ensure that this source of income did not go untapped.

Despite that statement there appear to be no figures at all, either for Dublin or for the rest of the country, as to the amount of taxation now coming from that source and what the projected taxation would be should any of the amendments before the House be introduced. If, as has been said, there are indications of success in the taxation and the tracking down of landlords, where is the evidence and where the figures? Surely they must exist or the indications would not be there.

In speaking against the amendment the Minister referred continually to the potential cost but the amount the amendment would yield by way of landlord taxation has been ignored. Yet, this is the crucial element in the whole question. The whole process the amendment would set in train would be a two-way operation. The amendment sets out to subsidise the poorer tenants by taxing the untapped incomes of landlords. I do not know if we can get further information today from the Minister on this aspect. I do not see any reason why figures cannot be made available which would give us a clearer view of this whole area. Even at this late stage I hope the Minister will make some type of commitment to the House. If, as he says, the amendments before the House are not workable, perhaps he has a mechanism in mind which is workable, which would not cost any money this year and which he could reduce to a minimum next year. If there were any general indications that the Minister had in mind bringing in on Report Stage such an alternative mechanism based on the principle of the amendment we would all withdraw our amendments. In the absence of any such commitments, I fully support the amendment to my amendment which seems to be a reasonable compromise.

I am sorry, would Deputy Gregory mind repeating his last statement?

I do not think it is relevant because amendments to my amendment will be taken first. I presume Deputy Desmond's amendment will be taken first. However, I support and accept Deputy Desmond's amendment to my amendment.

Is Deputy Desmond requesting the Chair to put the question?

I think we are all agreed on that.

In relation to this question, I said last week that it would be some time before any benefit would accrue to the Exchequer. The regulations contained in subsection (5) will be broadly administrative and allowances of any kind must be contained in legislation, in particular marginal relief allowances, which are already contained in section 1 (1) (b) and section 2 (iii) of the Finance Act, 1980.

I do not follow. Anything passed here supercedes anything passed in 1980. What matters is what is said in this Bill.

The Deputy said that marginal relief and such like could be covered under the regulations. It cannot. Marginal relief as an allowance must be legislated for.

There is no basis for saying that. My legal training is that no parliament can bind its successor. If the Constitution says that marginal relief may not be made by means of regulation then, clearly, that would be the case but the fact that another Act of the Oireachtas passed in 1980, which has no more status than this document, says that, makes no difference whatever. This section says that the Revenue Commissioners may make regulations for the purpose of giving effect to this section with respect to the allowance granted by this section or to any matter ancillary or incidental thereto. In my view, that enables the Revenue Commissioners to make regulations governing marginal relief. If the Minister wishes, we can circulate another amendment to put in after "incidental thereto" in brackets, "including marginal relief in respect of ..." whatever subsection this is going to be in. Perhaps the Minister thinks that such an amendment would make it more explicit. However, I do not think it is necessary.

I have made my points and I stand over them. If what the Deputy is saying is correct not only could we have abolished marginal relief by regulations but we could also introduce new taxes by regulations.

The Minister is indicating that it has not been the practice of the Revenue Commissioners to use regulation making powers other than for purely administrative matters. That may be so but the practice of the Revenue Commissioners is simply the practice of the Revenue Commissioners. It is not the law of the land.

The Revenue Commissioners should operate the law of the Oireachtas.

Of course they should but the practice they may adopt in regard to what they may or may not make regulations about is simply their practice. What counts is what this section says, and subsection (5) clearly says that they have the power to make regulations in regard to any matter ancillary or incidental to this section and in particular, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, a number of other specific matters.

The House seems to be sufficiently jaded of discussions on these amendments. Could you bear with me while I put the question?

Question put: "That the amendment to the amendment be made."
The Committee divided: Ta, 74; Níl, 76.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Birmingham, George.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corr, James.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael J.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin A.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Alexis.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Cavan-Monaghan).
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Fleming, Brian.
  • Governey, Des.
  • Gregory-Independent, Tony.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McGinley, Denis.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Markey, Bernard.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Naughton, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, William.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Andrews, Niall.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Bellew, Tom.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • (Dublin South-East).
  • Brady, Gerry.
  • (Kildare).
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Matty.
  • Brennan, Ned.
  • Brennan, Seamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, Sean.
  • Fitzsimons, Jim.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gibbons, Jim.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Keegan, Seán.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Loughnane, Bill.
  • Lynch, Michael.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Francis.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Filgate, Eddie.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Dublin South-Central).
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Murphy, Ciarán P.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West).
  • O'Dea, William G.
  • O'Donoghue, Martin.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barret(Dún Laoghaire) and Taylor; Níl, Deputies B. Ahern and Briscoe.
Amendment to amendment No. 33b declared lost.
Question put: "That the words proposed to be declared stand."
The Committee divided: Tá, 76; Níl, 74.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Andrews, Niall.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Bellew, Tom.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • (Dublin South-East).
  • Brady, Gerry.
  • (Kildare).
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Matty.
  • Brennan, Ned.
  • Brennan, Seamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, Sean.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Loughnane, Bill.
  • Lynch, Michael.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Murphy, Ciarán P.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West).
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Francis.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Filgate, Eddie.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Dublin South-Central).
  • Fitzsimons, Jim.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gibbons, Jim.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Keegan, Seán.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • O'Dea, William G.
  • O'Donoghue, Martin.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Birmingham, George.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corr, James.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael J.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin A.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Alexis.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Cavan-Monaghan).
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Fleming, Brian.
  • Governey, Des.
  • Gregory-Independent, Tony.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McGinley, Denis.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Markey, Bernard.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Naughton, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, William.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies B. Ahern and Briscoe; Níl, Deputies Barrett(Dún Laoghaire) and Taylor.
Question declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.
Amendments Nos. 33(c) 33(d) and 34 not moved.

I move amendment No. 34a:

In page 17, subsection (2), lines 50 to 53, to delete paragraph (b) and substitute the following:—

"(b) In this subsection ‘the relevant limit' means—

(i) in the case of a claimant (not being a widow or widower) who is entitled to a deduction under section 138(a), £1,000,

(ii) in the case of a person being a widow or widower (and but for being a widow or widower would be entitled to a deduction under section 138 (a)), £1,000, and

(iii) in any other case £750.".

Section 138(a) of the Income Tax Act refers to married couples only as being entitled to the income tax concession involved. We all accept that widows and widowers are a very weak and disadvantaged section of our community and yet they would not be entitled to this concession. I consider this to be an anomaly in the Income Tax Act and have introduced this amendment to bring widows and widowers into line with married couples for income tax concessions.

Under (iii) I have asked that in any other case the amount involved be increased from £500 to £750, on the basis that £500 is inadequate.

The arguments which have been heard at length, both last week and earlier today, in relation to the several other amendments put before the House are also relevant here. The principle behind the various other amendments is the extension of concessions to the weaker sections of the community in private rented accommodation. The arguments already put forward are equally relevant here. I do not intend to delay the business of the House by going yet again through those arguments, but ask the Minister to accept my amendment.

The effect of this amendment would be to increase the amount of rent on which relief could be claimed from £500 to £1,000 in the case of a widowed person and from £500 to £750 for a single person. There would appear to be constitutional difficulties about accepting this amendment. In the Murphy v. the Attorney General 1980 case, the Supreme Court held that a married couple may not, under the Constitution, be liable for more tax than a corresponding unmarried couple in similar circumstances. If this amendment were accepted, a married couple paying £2,000 in rent would be allowed only £1,000 and would then pay more tax than an unmarried couple in similar circumstances who share the rent. For those reasons I cannot accept the amendment.

I said earlier that I agree with what the Minister has said in regard to the constitutionality of the amendment.

We accept the Minister's arguments on this amendment and appreciate the points made by Deputy Gregory.

Is the amendment withdrawn?

In view of what the Minister has said and that he has been supported in this by Deputies John Bruton and Barry Desmond, I agree to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 34b.:

In page 17, subsection (2), after line 53, to insert a new paragraph as follows:—

"(c) A claimant, in order to prove entitlement to a deduction under this section shall on making a return provide information as to the identity and address of the person from whom he holds the tenancy and the identity and the address of the person to whom he has made payment on account of rent during the year ending on the 31st December prior to the year of assessment.”.

When arguing the case for the original amendment I made the point that the whole process involved was intended to bring about a situation in which the undeclared, and previously untapped, income of landlords would become liable to taxation and that that, in turn, would subsidise the income of tenants in very poor circumstances. To enable that to happen I felt that a mechanism should be spelled out whereby an efficient register of landlords could be compiled so that their income might be properly taxed. To do so I have suggested, in this amendment, that for a tenant to prove entitlement to a deduction he or she shall, on making a return, provide information as to the identity and address of the person from whom he or she holds the tenancy and the identity and address of the person to whom he or she has made payment on account of rent during the year ending on 31 December prior to the year of assessment. The amendment speaks for itself. It is simply a mechanism to establish once and for all something very badly needed, an efficient register of landlords, so that the income accruing to those landlords can be effectively taxed. I do not think this will be a controversial issue. I am sure it will be accepted on all sides of the House.

In the regulations which it is proposed will be made under subsection (5) as soon as the Bill becomes law, provision will be made for the proof of the payment of the rent by the tenant. The regulations will provide that to prove his claim the tenant must furnish certain information to the inspector of taxes. The information required will be broadly on the lines suggested in the proposed amendment. Imposing the requirements of the new subsection (c) on tenants was considered in the course of preparation of the Bill. It was felt that many old persons who paid their rents to rent collectors might not know the name of the landlord and that it would be a hardship for them to be refused relief because they did not have the information available. Accordingly, the genuine inability of the claimant to produce the information would not be regarded as acting as a bar to relief.

From the operational point of view the main difficulty anticipated in administering the rent relief is that of arriving at a workable system of proof of rent paid. For this reason the legislation relating to vouching the payments is reserved by the Bill to regulations so that they can be readily amended annually, if necessary and as experience dictates. As Deputies will know, the regulations will be laid before the House, but I can say that, broadly on the lines suggested in the Deputy's amendment, the regulations will contain the points about which the Deputy is concerned.

Perhaps the Minister would indicate more fully the type of situation he envisages in which a claimant would not be able to give the identity of the landlord, because it sounds a rather unlikely eventuality?

The Deputy is asking when——

If I understand him correctly the Minister is arguing against this amendment on the basis that there might be circumstances in which the tenant would not be able to identify the landlord and, therefore, could not get the relief if Deputy Gregory's amendment were accepted. While I am not saying that such cases do not exist, I would be a bit surprised to find they do. At least an approximate indication should be known. There may be a situation where the official landlord is acting on behalf of somebody else and is a man of straw. I would have thought that in all cases at least the tenant would be able to give the name of the man of straw.

That may be, but as the Deputy knows some people have rent collectors, agents or auctioneers to collect the rents or the actual premises may change hands during the course of any given year. All that sort of detail could give rise to problems in relation to the tenant having to vouch for the landlord.

All that Deputy Gregory's amendment asks is that information be provided in relation to the identity and address of the person from whom he holds the tenancy. If the person gives all the information he or she has, that person would be complying with the terms of Deputy Gregory's amendment and it would not be really necessary for that person to provide the definitive name and address, including the address on the Cote D'Azur, where the so-called landlord is living. Once the person gives whatever information he or she has that person is complying with Deputy Gregory's amendment.

We are talking about people over 65. There may be procedures which have built up over the years. I know of tenants who do not know who their landlord is. Some other agent collects the rent on behalf of the landlord. I am sure the Deputy knows of such cases. There is absolutely no disagreement between what Deputy Gregory wants and what we intend in the regulations. The question is the necessity of embodying this in the legislation. I am satisfied the regulations will contain regulations broadly on the lines of the points raised by Deputy Gregory in his proposed amendment.

Is the Minister saying he is accepting my amendment?

I am saying that I accept the content of the amendment but that this will be contained in the regulations as section 5 (5) allows. When all of the regulations pertaining to this are available they will be laid before the House for discussion. This gives the opportunity, by doing those matters by regulation, to update them annually without new legislation. We can re-arrange or change the regulations annually. If there are problems or anomalies that have arisen vis-à-vis the implementation of this, it is much easier to amend them by regulation than by legislation. If it was found that what the Deputy seeks was not brought about by his amendment, it would be necessary to bring in a Bill to change it. But if it was a regulation, the regulation could be changed.

I fail to understand what the Minister means despite his clarification. My amendment seeks to ensure that when a person is applying for entitlement the person should give information as to the identity and address of the person from whom he or she holds the tenancy and the identity and address of the person to whom he or she gives the rent. If that is what the Minister intends to do I do not see there is any difficulty in accepting the amendment. The amendment is essential to begin a process whereby we will establish a proper register of landlords. Everybody agrees it is absolutely essential. I am most reluctant to withdraw this amendment. If there is no contradiction between the content of the amendment and what the Minister intends to do then surely the Minister can accept it.

I find it difficult to accept that there will be cases of people who cannot give information — that is all the amendment asks — as to the identity of the person they give their rent to. The amendment does not say that the people have to establish a case as to who the landlord of a certain property is. It states that they should give whatever information is available as to the identity and address of the people involved. I do not see anything controversial in this. I do not see anything in it that will raise major problems for tenants. After all, the amendment is being introduced to benefit tenants and not to work against them.

There is no difference between us at all but in relation to the Deputy's amendment I am trying to avoid people being barred from getting the relief. The amendment states clearly that a claimant, in order to prove entitlement to a deduction under this section, shall do certain things. If we legislate in that way, then people who are not in a position to provide this information — there are people like that — will be deprived of their relief. Such matters, broadly on the lines of what the Deputy has suggested, would be in the regulations which may be changed, updated and modernised from time to time. If such suggestions are put into legislation certain individuals may be barred from getting relief because they may not be in a position to provide the identity and address of the person from whom they hold the tenancy and the identity and address of the person to whom they have made payment on account of rent.

The Minister has conveniently misquoted what the Deputy's amendment states.

I reject that completely. I read out the relevant part of the amendment.

Deputy Gregory's amendment states that it will be necessary to provide information as to the identity and address of the landlord, not necessarily the identity and address if the person has not got it. Information that would put the Revenue on the right track would be sufficient to comply with the terms of the amendment. The amendment does not require people to provide the name and address down to the precise box number or the number on the street where the landlord lives. All that is required is information to that end and in my view that is something that could easily be complied with. All people are being asked to do is to give whatever information they have, no more.

Surely a tenant is entitled to know who his or her landlord or landlady is? That is a modest request. It would enable the Revenue Commissioners to get income tax from landlords by having a central register compiled. The purpose of the amendment is twofold, to help tenants find their landlords or landladies and enable the Revenue Commissioners to collect taxes from landlords who do not pay tax now. I do not know what the Minister is making a song and dance about. This appears to be a simple matter. Landlords, if they are people of straw or wealth, should have their names made known to tenants and that should be a basic civil and human right.

(Dublin South-Central): There is little difference in what the Minister has in mind and what is suggested by Deputy Gregory in his amendment. If it were enshrined in the Bill we would have a very rigid operation. The Minister is suggesting that this be done by regulation because then it could be amended through trial and error. If we adopt Deputy Gregory's amendment and in three or four months' time when we are faced with an anomaly not thought of when the amendment was being framed we will have to change it in a Finance Bill. If the Minister's suggestion is adopted it will be possible to alter such proposals by regulation.

Will the Minister spell out exactly what he proposes to put into the regulations so that we can see to what extent it compares with Deputy Gregory's amendment? I do not know if it is possible to do that at this stage but we need to know what the Minister proposes. Deputy Gregory's amendment deals with the question of disentitlement of a tenant to make the deduction. Will the Minister say if he has considered whether the Revenue Commissioners will be entitled under subsection 5 to make a regulation going that far, in other words to actually disentitle tenants from the deduction? It seems to me that the powers given to the Revenue Commissioners in that subsection would not go so far as to entitle them to disentitle the tenant to make the deduction.

It is to avoid that type of situation, to bar somebody from relief, that we have not enshrined it in the legislation. The proposed regulations have not been compiled as yet. The Revenue Commissioners would make regulations under the various headings as outlined in subsection 5. Deputy Kemmy said I was making a song and dance about this but I am not. I am telling the Deputy that what is contained in the amendment will be broadly in the regulations governing this section. My fear is that if this is enshrined in legislation people will be debarred from getting the allowance. That is the position and there is no song and dance about it. I am just explaining the position.

I do not understand the Minister's reply. The Minister, in answer to Deputy Taylor, said that it was precisely to avoid having to debar people from getting rent relief that he was not putting in a section in the Bill requiring that this information be provided. If that is his intention what power will the Minister have to get the information at all? If the regulation is not going to bar people if they do not provide the information and the section does not bar people if they do not provide the information, then nobody will be required to give the information. If that is the case people will not give the information and if they do not give the information money will not be saved.

(Dublin South-Central): It will be in the regulation.

The Minister has just said it cannot be in the regulation. The Minister said the reason that he was not putting it in the Bill was that he did not want to achieve the ability to debar people.

I understand that old people could be overawed by papers, bureaucracy and regulations and may not be able to investigate who the landlord or landlady may be and in that case may be debarred from the tax relief. That is clear but the alternative is also true, that unscrupulous landlords could hide behind faceless agencies or rent collectors to avoid paying income tax in that area. It would be difficult for anybody to find out, behind a layer of front men, who the landlord is. Judging by the difficulty that has been encountered in the past by the Revenue Commissioners in pursuing landlords I would be very reluctant to support the Minister in this matter. I do not see any great effort being made to galvanise the commissioners into going after this type of hidden income. The Minister will have to make the case more clearly before I could support him.

I have been asked how the regulations will enable us to get this type of information. We all want to get the landlords but if one puts the onus on the tenants and say that they must provide the identity and address of the person from whom they hold the tenancy, that could debar them from qualifying for relief. I want to avoid that situation. The auctioneer, estate agent or whoever will be asked to provide this information. I do not want the position to be that inability on the part of the tenant to obtain this information will debar him from the relief. I cannot explain it any more simply.

Is there no loophole for them?

Absolutely not.

They are more adroit at exploiting loopholes than the Minister judging by the way they have succeeded in avoiding paying taxation in the past. They are three jumps ahead of the possé. The Minister is creating another loophole for them now.

What we are ensuring is that they will be caught but we do not want to debar the people who are genuinely entitled to relief.

The Minister is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Would the Minister accept Deputy Gregory's amendment if it read: A claimant in order to prove entitlement to a deduction under this section shall on making a return provide information as to the person to whom he has made payment on account of rent during the year ending on the 31 December prior to the year of assessment. That would leave out the identity and address of the landlord which the tenant may not have.

I support Deputy Bruton's proposal if Deputy Gregory would consider it. What we are trying to avoid is the problem where some people do not know who their landlord is. All they have is the name of an estate agent or solicitor. It would be unfair to deprive somebody of their entitlement because they did not have the landlord's name. My two colleagues have handled this more than adequately and the purpose in my rising to my feet is that I have had experience of houses which changed hands on numerous occasions but the tenants remained the same. They do not know who the landlord is. At best they know the agent when the rent is collected, that is, if it is collected. That will change on 25 July. If we want to go after potential sources of new revenue we must be able to identify the landlords. It should be the name of the agent, landlord or rent collector and the Revenue Commissioners could go after them.

If the Minister proceeds as he intends, what information will the person claiming the relief be required to give? Is it simply that he is paying rent?

Rent book, as the Deputy outlined in January. They will be certified as paying rent.

Will the rent book not have to show the person to whom the rent is being paid?

What Deputy Gregory is requiring them to do is something that they are already required to do and will not have the condign consequences the Minister fears.

Deputy Gregory is asking for the identity and address of the person who holds the tenancy.

I suggested an amendment to his amendment to confine that to the people who paid the money.

Deputy Gregory is opening up Pandora's Box and it is appropriate that it should be firmly prized opened. The extent of the identity which he is seeking is the person from whom a tenant holds a tenancy, the landlord per se. That is where the merit of the amendment stands. Perhaps the Minister can take it on board now or give a firm assurance that between now and Report Stage he will put in a section. It is appropriate to meet the case where a person is getting £50 or £60 per week for a fairly rundown two-bedroomed flat. I could give numerous examples in Dún Laoghaire, in Tivoli Terrace, Royal Terrace, Clarinda Park and all over south Dublin where I was not able to find out the identity of landlords after 14 years of activity.

Not even living in the constituency, or perhaps living there and even voting for the Deputy.

(Dublin South-Central): This amendment will not help.

(Dublin South-Central): It does not make it obligatory on the part of the landlord. It is on the tenant.

Perhaps the Minister might clarify this when replying. In order to avoid the obvious temptation for collusion and fraud and Revenue Commissioners will have to be satisfied that the rent paid is a bona fide rent. We will have to have some form of receipts. If the agent will not be liable for taxation, ultimately the receipt will have to state "received on behalf of landlord X" or "received on behalf of such and such, Leinster House Properties Limited".

It is the landlord we are trying to get at.

In order for the tenant to get the rent allowance the information will have to be provided on a receipt. The receipt will have to be more than a rent book which is frequently written on in pencil with an indecipherable initial which means nothing. In order to strengthen the Minister's hand, the essence of Deputy Gregory's amendment is sensible. It does not mean that the Minister is doing something he was not committed to doing already.

I have already said that.

As regards the Labour Party, we will give the Minister flexibility as to how he drafts it. We are well disposed and will support in principle the amendment as it stands.

As I said in my reply to Deputy Gregory, there is no difference of opinion about what he wants to do in his amendment and what I have said will be contained in the regulations. Very important points have been raised now. If the House is prepared to agree, between now and Thursday evening on Report Stage, I will formally introduce a subsection which will be worded to ensure that the person will not be debarred from relief by putting the onus on him and which will, at the same time, go all the way to get the landlord. It is not the agent or the auctioneer or whoever is in between that we are after. I give a commitment to the House to introduce an amendment, hopefully which will be agreed by us all, on Report Stage.

Is the amendment withdrawn?

I will have to show flexibility. If the Minister in the short time involved is prepared to give a commitment to the House that he will formulate an amendment by Thursday, I accept that.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 35. Amendments Nos. 36 to 40 are cognate and may be discussed together with amendment No. 35.

I move amendment No. 35:

In page 18, subsection (4), line 29, to delete "year of assessment", and to substitute "year".

These are textual amendments to the section introducing relief for persons aged 65 years and over. The amendments are necessary because this relief is to be allowed for rent paid in the year ending 31 December prior to the year of assessment rather than the previous income tax year. Thus in section 5 (4) which deals with the attribution of rent payment for the particular year for the purpose of relief the relevant period is that running from 1 January to 31 December, that is a year, rather than a year of assessment which runs from 6 April to the following 5 April. It is necessary to relate the allowance for the tax year, that is 1983-84 commencing 6 April 1983, to the rent paid in the year ending the previous 31 December, that is 31 December 1982 in relation to the 1983-84 year, so that there will be time to include the correct figure on the certificates of tax-free allowances which may be issued to employers to give time to them to operate the certificates on the first pay-day in the next new year. Under the Interpretations Act, 1937 the word "year" when used without qualification means a period of 12 months beginning on the first day of January in any year.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 36:

In page 18, subsection (4), lines 31 and 32, to delete "year of assessment", in each place where it occurs, and to substitute "year".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 37:

In page 18, subsection (4), line 34, to delete "year of assessment", and to substitute "year".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 38:

In page 18, subsection (4), line 35, to delete "year of assessment", and to substitute "year".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 39:

In page 18, subsection (4), lines 36 and 37, to delete "year of assessment", and to substitute "year".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 40:

In page 18, subsection (4), line 38, to delete "year of assessment", and to substitute "year".

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 41 has been ruled out of order. Amendment No. 42 is in the names of Deputies Sherlock, Gallagher and De Rossa.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present.

Amendment No. 42 not moved.
Question proposed "That section 5, as amended, stand part of the Bill".

In section 5 paragraph (b) on page 17 is an interpretation paragraph which limits the definition of a tenancy by excluding from the concession granted to tenants under the section people who are tenants of a Minister of the Government, the Commissioners of Public Works or a housing authority. Tenants in that category are excluded from having a right of deduction under the section. I can understand to some extent why that should be so in the case of a housing authority because there is already an element of subsidisation from public funds in that situation, but I fail to see why an unfortunate tenant who by some quirk of chance happens to be a tenant of a Minister of the Government or of the Commissioners of Public Works should for that reason be deprived of the same right of deduction in respect of his rent against his tax as any other tenant. Could the Minister explain why a special situation was put in there?

The reason a Minister of the Government and the Commissioners of Public Works are mentioned here is that tenants of either of those two would be in subsidised rent accommodation also.

In all cases?

Broadly speaking that would be the position.

It is conceivable that it might be so in the event, for instance, that the OPW acquired a stately home or some such place. I have a case in mind where An Foras Talúntais own Johnstown Castle and somebody who is a tenant is living in the building and I presume is paying a commercial rent. In the event that the OPW were, say, to acquire a castle somewhere in the west and were to re-let a flat in that castle to someone or other at a commercial rent or in return for services, the fact that the OPW are the landlords would seem to exclude the tenant from claiming the relief. I would have thought it would be better, rather than simply ruling out people who are tenants of the OPW or a Minister, to do it on the basis that if the rent is subsidised it is ruled out but in the event that it is not subsidised the tenant could claim the relief. If you go ahead with this you are precluding the OPW perhaps from charging an economic rent and you are saying almost that the OPW must subsidise any rent to anyone availing of their premises, and perhaps that is not what is intended. The Minister might like to look at this between now and Report Stage.

I have another point for information only. I note that a tenancy is any period up to 50 years. I would have thought that 50 years was rather longer than the average tenancy. Perhaps it is over-generous.

In the absence of detailed information, my advice is that, generally speaking, tenancies of this kind are subsidised and that is why this is mentioned here similarly to the local authority subsidisation schemes. That is all I have to go by but, as the Deputy has suggested, I will have another look at it and see if I can get more detailed information on it.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 6.

I move amendment No. 43:

In page 20, subsection (2), between lines 4 and 5, to add the following proviso:—

"Provided that in a case where an individual's total income for the year 1982-83 is of such amount that he is not liable to be charged to income tax, the deduction of £312 (proportionally increased by the percentage figure as represented by the Consumer Price Index to mid-February for each intervening year) shall be carried over to the next subsequent year of assessment in which that individual's income becomes so liable.".

This section is concerned with introducing tax relief for people in respect of pay-related social insurance contributions. I have criticised the way in which the money available for this relief is being used in that by seeking to relieve the burden of PRSI contributions by means of a tax relief one gives disproportionate benefit to those first who are paying tax, those who are paying PRSI and those who are paying no tax get no benefit. Those who are paying tax at a relatively low rate because they have a relatively modest income get a small tax relief and those who are paying tax at a very high rate because they have a very high income will get a much greater benefit from the tax relief in respect of PRSI contribution. I believe this is not the right way in which to give relief in respect of PRSI. That is not to say that I do not believe there is a case for giving relief in respect of PRSI but if there is I think the way to do it would be to exempt some categories of low income workers from PRSI altogether and give to those who are at the bottom of the income scale rather than giving proportionately more to those who are at the top. That is my general view of this matter.

I am trying in this amendment to mitigate somewhat the unfavourable way in which the system is going to work. At the moment if a person has a low income, so low that he does not pay income tax, or so low that the income tax is so little that he cannot fully use up the tax allowance he is given for PRSI in the section, if he cannot claim it this year either at all or in full he is not allowed to carry it forward into next year or any subsequent year when he might have an income sufficiently high to enable him to pay income tax and thereby use the relief. What I am saying in the amendment is that if you do not use the relief this year, you can carry it forward to next year. That will specifically and solely help people on low incomes. It is only those people who will benefit, those who are working this year but do not use the allowance because their income is too low. They are the only people with any interest because people who have sufficient income this year will use the relief this year and to carry forward would be of no benefit to them. This amendment is designed to help low income people in respect of PRSI by allowing them to claim the allowance in subsequent years. It is a reasonable amendment. It will cost nothing at all this year and if it costs anything it will be next year and it will be very little then.

I concede that the number of workers who have taxable incomes but who are not in fact paying tax because their incomes are so low is not very great. The number who are on very low incomes this year and who will be on an income high enough next year to need the tax relief will also not be very great. Therefore the cost next year will not be very much but it is a concession towards the low paid and in this context it is reasonable.

The amendment provides for the carrying forward only of the full allowance and does not cater for the situation where an individual could benefit from part of the allowance in 1982-1983. That is one of the first things wrong. We had some discussion on this when the motion was going through the Dáil and I have considered the proposal since it was first put forward by Deputy Bruton and I have concluded that I must continue to oppose this amendment.

What the amendment proposes would be in conflict with a principle that is basic in relation to personal allowances in the income tax code, that is that allowances and reliefs are available only for a particular tax year and if unused they are not available to carry forward. If an unused PRSI allowance were to be carried forward it would be difficult to resist the carry-forward of other personal allowances and this would lead to considerable confusion and would give rise to manipulation of income. The proposed amendment also introduces the concept of indexation of income tax allowances. Acceptance of such a concept would greatly reduce budgetary flexibility and deprive the Minister for Finance of an important discretion in making budget decisions in subsequent years. When this matter was discussed in May and the £45 million PAYE/PRSI concession was introduced, the Government and I at that time said that we were moving to ease the burden caused for many people by increases in the level of PRSI. Mainly arising from discussions with the Congress of Trade Unions and others the double taxation element of PRSI was the major bone of contention. We said we are moving in that direction by giving this allowance.

We also said that it was for this year as an interim measure and that the whole PRSI system will be subject to a review. Hopefully by next year a much fairer system will be in operation. Taking those things into account I think the House should accept my word in that regard and that Deputy Bruton should withdraw his amendment.

The Minister made two contradictory arguments. He said this allowance was only an interim measure, which would presumably mean that it will not apply in subsequent years. Then he said that any changes that we might make, even though it is only an interim measure, might be a precedent and cited in other instances. I cannot see why he should be so worried about precedent if he is only talking about amendments to a measure which he has said is only an interim one and therefore not introducing a permanent element into the income tax code.

The only argument he adduced against this amendment is that it would be new, it had not been done before and therefore should not be done now. That does not convince. We must recognise that this is an exceptional type of proposal — to give tax relief in respect of tax. Soon we will have a situation where we will be proposing tax relief in respect of tax relief in respect of tax; it is reaching that degree of absurdity that we shall have to amend the tax code in order to iron out something we have done elsewhere in another form of revenue raising activity. However I think the net point is that this proposal assists the low-paid, the people who have such low incomes that they cannot claim the allowance this year. It enables them to claim it in subsequent years. It will not cost anything this year and very little next year. It assists the low-paid workers. I do not see why the fact that it has not been done before should stop the Minister from doing it now.

To say that it does not cost anything this year but it will assist the lower paid is one contradiction——

Next year.

Yes, next year. I said it is an interim measure and that the whole system of PRSI will be reviewed and that it was the double taxation element of PRSI that led us to the introduction of this concession for this year. I also said that hopefully in the budget of next year we will have a much fairer system of PRSI in operation as and from then.

I do not believe that the reason for giving the relief was simply because it was double taxation——

That is the main reason and we said so at the time.

The main justification for giving relief in respect of PRSI would be that it is taking too much from people who cannot afford to pay. Obviously the people who can least afford to pay are the lower paid yet what the Minister is doing is giving most to the highest paid.

The Deputy did not propose in his budget to give any relief at all.

The Minister has not told us where the £45 million is to come from but if he has this sort of money to spend surely he should give it to those who need it most.

Those who have benefited are very happy about it.

I have some difficulty with this amendment in that I do not see entirely Deputy Bruton's point that it would help only the lower paid. I say this because if a person had a substantial tax free allowance, made up perhaps by way of substantial interest payments up to the maximum and by reason of his having a large family, by carrying the allowances forward we could equally be helping people on higher incomes, that is, if their allowances were of sufficient order to bring them up to the limit. In other words, we would not necessarily be providing relief for the lower paid. By carrying the allowances forward, as is proposed by Deputy Bruton, we could be helping those people who could not avail of the relief in one year to use it in the second year and these could well happen to be people on substantial salaries.

The other difficulty I have in regard to the amendment relates to the whole principle of carrying forward personal allowances because if once accepted this is a principle that could lead to all sorts of demands from virtually every Deputy in the House to do the same in respect of much more deserving cases. In the case of people who incur large interest payments and who have large families, their salaries may not be big enough for them to avail of the maximum amount of allowances. If we were to accept Deputy Bruton's proposal, why not carry forward allowances in respect of children, marriage allowances and so on, in the event of the people concerned not being in a position to avail of them in a particular year? But if we were to agree to this principle I could think of a long list that would be ahead in terms of urgency so far as tax allowances are concerned. If we are to talk about carrying forward allowances, I would be thinking of the various personal allowances but if we were to break the principle as suggested by Deputy Bruton, we would be running into extreme difficulty.

If people are in the situation described by Deputy Brennan that is that even with seemingly high incomes they would not have large taxable incomes we must remember that this is one of the problems about our tax code that we might very well have regard to. I do not wish to follow Deputy Brennan on the philosophy of carrying allowances forward. The Deputy is probably aware of the work being done by NESC about the cycle of family poverty. This shows that at certain points in the family cycle, when there are a large number of young people, the same family in the same position and at the same level are much worse off than when they did not have children or when the children had grown up. There is a case for trying to even out this rather abrupt cycle whereby people, because they take on family responsibilities, are dramatically worse off and where they become better off once their children go out to work. That is simply because of the way in which the tax code operates, taking one year on its own and considering a family's responsibilities for that year. I realise that to meet that sort of situation the tax code would have to be a lot more sophisticated than it is but there is a case for doing something in this area. I still adhere to my view that in real terms the people who would benefit from my proposal are the lower paid.

(Dublin South-Central): Deputy Bruton has made some of the points I intended making also but he is opening up a totally new field here. We know that people can get fairly substantial tax reliefs if they are in a position to avail of the various allowances though they may have substantial salaries. However, I do not think that what Deputy Bruton is proposing is the best way of giving relief to those about whom Deputy Bruton is concerned. I would much prefer to see the money being paid back by way of children's allowances. It would be very difficult for the Minister to confine the principle contained in Deputy Bruton's proposal to the lower paid. I could not agree with Deputy Bruton that his proposal if accepted would not cost anything this year. It is wrong that we should be writing sections into a Finance Bill that would have the effect of building up debts for next year. We had it in the previous section and we are doing it again here. We should draft a Finance Bill for the year in question and then budget for it. I do not agree that everything is all right because whatever we are legislating for will only happen in 1983 or 1984. We should budget for whatever cost is to be incurred this year. I agree with the Minister that the whole field of PRSI will have to be looked at. We all know that there are some hardships but we should be able to look at this whole area with a view to giving relief to the lower paid workers.

I would prefer by far to grant this amendment and reduce the extent of the relief, most of which will go in bulk to people who are well off, in order to help the less well off. If the Minister wishes to have a nil-cost amendment I am prepared to go along with him in reducing the overall effect of the relief by whatever amount is necessary to enable it to be carried forward so as to help the lower paid.

If one examines the tax rates one finds that at least £15 million of the £45 million benefited those earning more than £9,500 per year. Only those who are earning up to that income are liable for PRSI in the first instance. Therefore, the net effect of that relief of £45 million, regardless of whatever device by which it was worked out, is as I have indicated. I have reason to believe that the whole process by which the relief was granted was a wholly haphazard piece of representation and negotiation and that it was not thought through in any way. Undoubtedly, Deputy Bruton's amendment is far more progressive than even the existing provision of the £312. We are faced with a considerable problem here. The Minister has told us that the provision was a once off situation and was in response to the double taxation element within PRSI. What is implicit in that statement is that it is all to be absorbed next year into the general provision of taxation.

I would have argued that if I had £45 million to give away by way of relief I would give it to large families, with special relief in respect of the third, fourth and fifth children. It is amazing what £10 million or £12 million would provide by way of relief. I would have given it by exempting the first £2,000 of taxable income from PRSI. That could have been done.

I do not blame the Minister for Finance. I blame the Taoiseach who panic-stricken said "Let us do something about PRSI". The people who are most vocal about PRSI for the most part are most capable of paying it. They got the greatest relief. In Ireland it is not a question of whether you are well off or poor. It is a question of political muscle.

The Deputy's stand on it was honourable, unlike the stand of Deputies opposite.

I adopted a very rough stand on PRSI and I got very little thanks for it.

I am thanking the Deputy now.

I got a belt over the head from some of my close colleagues every time I surfaced on it. If you are giving relief, and I favour giving relief, you give it to those in greatest need. Deputy Bruton's amendment is almost what I would call a retribution amendment. If people mess around like that with taxation relief, inevitably this type of amendment is provoked. I do not know what the Minister will do next year. Presumably he will absorb the £45 million in the personal allowances, or endeavour to do something of that nature. Perhaps he will abolish it altogether and, if he does, all hell will break loose after next year's budget.

The amendment has highlighted the anomalous position of PRSI and the appalling mess created by the granting of £45 million relief, which effectively reduced workers' contributions from about £200 million a year to £165 million, or thereabouts. That was a fair old shift in liability, but it did not do much good in the long run. The Minister has my sympathy. If I know his mind, originally he would not have done this, by-election or no by-election, representations or no representations. The ground was pulled from under his feet by the Taoiseach who wanted to give them something to keep them quiet, and the wrong people got the benefit.

I have not much to add to what I have already said. It is no harm to remind Deputy Bruton and the House that the youth employment levy was introduced when Deputy Bruton and Deputy Desmond were members of the Government last December. Some months before that they talked about having a minimum limit to help the lower paid workers about whom we have heard so much over the past few weeks. When the youth employment levy legislation was passed in the Dáil last December the 1 per cent levy was right across the board, with no minimum exemptions and no limits. I do not know how they can justify that as compared with the bleeding from the heart they are doing now for some sections of the community.

What I have said is positive. We moved because of the impact of the PRSI increases, which were identical to what was passed in December, proposed in the 27 January budget and passed by the Dáil before 25 March, and to ease the burden on many people. I had representations from and contacts and discussions with ICTU and because of the double taxation element involved in PRSI we introduced the £45 million concession for those paying the high level of PRSI. The whole PRSI system will be reviewed and I hope we will be able to have a much fairer system in operation after the next budget.

It is somewhat strange for the Minister to try to suggest that I am making a proposal to modify his relief and because in a sense that represents a departure from the position in my January budget he can afford to be critical of me.

I referred to the youth employment levy introduced in December.

In fact, it was legislation introduced by the Minister's Government which provided the present PRSI rates.

At the Deputy's levels.

This was confirmed by the Minister in his March budget. It was he who changed, under pressure and not under rational argument, and gave the £45 million concession. When he did that, he gave most to the best off and least to the less well off. He has nothing to be boastful or superior about in his record on this matter.

I was not being boastful. I was being factual.

Our proposal is a reasonable modification to help the lower paid workers and the Minister should accept it.

I want to refer to what I think is the heart of the amendment. I take some of the points Deputy Bruton is making in a broader sense about the PRSI structure. The House is faced with very specific wording which asks specifically for a carry forward of allowances to which I have already referred. At the very centre of this amendement is a request for indexation of allowances. It is tucked away innocuously at the centre of the amendment. If we are to improve and reform our taxation system, which I hope will be done as soon as possible, it should not slip through as part of an amendment to the Bill. It is much broader than that. For many years Ministers for Finance — I cannot recall whether Deputy Bruton was one of them but I suspect he was — read out pages and pages of reasons why we cannot index allowances such as marriage allowances.

I never did.

Perhaps Deputy Bruton would tell us that in principle he supports the indexation of allowances. My recollection is that most Ministers for Finance saw the reality of the situation that once you start to index allowances to the cost of living, you are getting into a fierce spiral which will lead to quite severe financial difficulties for the Exchequer. If Deputy Bruton believes that indexation as a principle does not bother him, and that he will be happy to look at it if his day ever comes again, the House should be told that. It should not creep in innocuously in this way.

It is a much broader and deeper question. It raises the whole question of social welfare allowances being indexed at some time. Irrespective of the points made about PRSI, we are stuck with the wording of the amendment in which the whole area of indexation is introduced. If we are for it in this amendment we have to look at it over a broad list of areas across the board. I do not think it should creep in in this fashion. If we are to look at the indexation of allowances, we should do it more calmly, across the board in a more comprehensive manner. I do not think we can accept this amendment as a once off allowance, which, by its nature is obviously a temporary one.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 74; Níl, 75.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Birmingham, George.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corr, James.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael J.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McGinley, Denis.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Markey, Bernard.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin A.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Alexis.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Cavan-Monaghan).
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Fleming, Brian.
  • Governey, Des.
  • Gregory-Independent, Tony.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • O'Brien, William.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Andrews, Niall.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Bellew, Tom.
  • Brady, Gerard. (Dublin South-East).
  • Brady, Gerry. (Kildare).
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Matty.
  • Brennan, Ned.
  • Brennan, Seamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, Sean.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Francis.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Filgate, Eddie.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Dublin South-Central).
  • Fitzsimons, Jim.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gibbons, Jim.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Keegan, Seán.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Loughnane, Bill.
  • Lynch, Michael.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Murphy, Ciarán P.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Dea, William G.
  • O'Donoghue, Martin.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett(Dún Laoghaire) and Taylor; Níl, Deputies B. Ahern and Briscoe.
Amendment declared lost.

I am one of the Deputies accommodated in Setanta but if the doors in Setanta are locked it becomes impossible for a Deputy to come here and discharge his responsibilities and I found that to be the case just now. One door is opened and the other door is closed but if one goes to the wrong exit it is not possible to get here in time. I should like the Chair to look into the matter.

I will have the matter investigated for the Deputy.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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