asked the Minister for Finance his plans in relation to the reform of financial procedures; the action he proposes to take on the proposals in the paper published by the previous Government entitled A Better Way to Plan the Nation's Finances.
8.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Financial Procedures Reform.
7.
asked the Minister for Finance the proposals he has to reform financial procedures in the Dáil.
9.
asked the Minister for Finance if he has any plans to change the format, method or timing of presentation to the Dáil of the Estimates of public expenditure.
(Clare): I propose to take Questions Nos. 7, 8 and 9 together.
It is my intention to improve those financial procedures which come within my competence as Minister for Finance. It is intended that information to facilitate a better appraisal of public expenditure will be made available in the context of the 1983 public expenditure documentation. The format of this information is still being developed.
While I would hope to present the Estimates earlier than has been the practice, Deputy Bruton will appreciate the difficulties in doing this. Other proposals being considered concern improvements in the timetable for presentation of budgetary documentation to the Dáil, the development of Government accounting practices, the reporting and accounting arrangements of State-sponsored bodies and the information provided on the Public Capital Programme.
The question of reforming the financial procedures of the Dáil is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and has been before that committee for some time. I hope the new committee will give the matter urgent attention.
As to the discussion paper published by the previous Government—in which I appreciate Deputy Bruton when Minister for Finance took a keen personal interest—the proposals therein are being reviewed in the light of the public response. I am not yet however in a position to indicate the extent to which the proposals will be implemented, except where they coincide with those mentioned above.
I welcome what appears to be a qualified endorsement of the proposals of the previous Government in this matter. I should like the Minister to state specifically if he accepts in principle that the Estimates for expenditure should be presented to the Dáil in the year previous to that in which the expenditure is to be incurred and should be discussed and sanctioned by the Dáil at that time rather than when the money has been spent, as is the case at present?
(Clare): I accept in principle what the Deputy has said but I know he is aware of the difficulties last year —and in my experience in most years — in finalising Estimates. I accept that it must be possible over a short period of years to bring about that reform. At any rate I hope so.
Would it be possible to introduce the October presentation of the Estimates for the subsequent year as was planned to take place originally in October 1982 but which is not possible now because of the lateness of the budget? In other words, is the Minister prepared to give a commitment to present the Estimates for 1984 in October of 1983?
(Clare): In view of the difficulties involved the only commitment I can give in that respect is to attempt to do what the Deputy suggests but I am sure he will appreciate that there can be no question of a total commitment in that regard.
Everybody would acknowledge the open-mindedness with which the Minister is approaching this question but would he not agree that everybody else would be likely to have an open mind also and that if Deputy Bruton's suggestion is adopted in some form or other whereby the Dáil is given a chance at least two months before the end of the calendar year to consider Estimates for the following year, the House will be that much more understanding if in the course of the following year the Estimates are found to be deficient and Supplementary Estimates are brought in? Would that not be a small price to pay for the main shape of the Estimates being disclosed to the House well in advance of the beginning of the year?
(Clare): That is a principle with which I agree but it is something that would take some time to bring to the level referred to by Deputy Bruton. It is not something that could be done in one year but it could be attempted and possibly achieved in a period of a few years.
Can the Minister either confirm or deny that there will be an autumn budget?
That is a different subject. The Deputy is seeking information that would warrant a separate parliamentary question.
Is it not relevant to the first eight questions vis-á-vis our financial indebtedness?
It is a separate question.
I do not see the need for you to rescue the Minister from giving vital public information.
I am not rescuing anyone but what the Deputy is asking constitutes a separate question.
Can the Minister either confirm or deny that there will be an autumn budget?
(Clare): Sin ceist eile.
Considering that there has been little change since the foundation of the State in the whole Dáil finance procedure, would the Minister be prepared, as a matter of urgency, to refer once again to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges this whole question asking them to report to the Dáil on the matter? Would the Minister agree that debating Estimates before the year to which they refer rather than debating them as we do half way through the year, would be a much better procedure? That is another question that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges might be asked specifically to examine. Would the Minister agree that for many years we have been using the Estimates as an excuse for debates when what we should have is detailed examination of State expenditure? In addition, would the Minister agree that if we are to run a modern parliament we need urgently to tackle the question of the reform of the Dáil, particularly its financial reform? Would the Minister be prepared to refer this whole matter to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges asking them to report urgently and not to have a 1969 type situation whereby although this question was referred to them then, we have not heard anything further about it?
(Clare): As I have said, it was referred to them. I am hoping that the new committee will give the matter their urgent attention.
In view of the fact that the whole purpose of Deputy Bruton's proposals—proposals which the Government that we belonged to adopted—and of the Minister's willingness to go some distance to adopting them, is the better informing of the Dáil, and, through the Dáil, of the people, as to what their money is being used for, would the Minister suggest to his Minister and to the Department a proposal that I have made before, that is, that in the course of the year each taxpayer be sent a statement showing a breakdown in terms of proportionate pence in the £ of the way in which the money collected from him, whether by way of income tax or VAT, is being spent so as to enable him to see for himself, if he is not interested in reading the reports of the deliberations of this House, how his money is being spent, that, for instance, 30p in every revenue £ goes on interest payments, that so many other pence go on health and so many others on wages and salaries? This would give the taxpayer a picture of how his money is spent. It is a system that used be used by the rating authorities.
It still is.
That was their way of showing the ratepayers how their money was being spent.
(Clare): I agree that that has been the practice of the rating authorities down through the years. While I can see cost difficulties involved, I will bring the suggestion to the attention of the Minister for Finance.
I am calling Question No. 10.
I wish to ask one final supplementary.
Deputy Bruton has quite a few questions on this matter.
Would the Minister not agree that the cost involved would be far less than the hundreds of thousands of pounds being invested in what is called a crime prevention campaign? The only resource that has been put into this campaign is the distribution of the many thousands of leaflets imbellished with pictures of the Minister for Justice. That is supposed to put down crime.
A thing of beauty is a joy forever. When does the Minister expect to refer the matter that I have been talking about to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges?
(Clare): Immediately. It was with the last committee.
They decided not to take any action.
(Clare): I will be hoping to hear from them quickly in this instance.
Perhaps the new committee are a better committee.
Hear, hear.