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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 Dec 1982

Vol. 339 No. 3

Kilkenny Design Workshops Limited Bill, 1982: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I should like to apologise for the absence of the Minister who is out of the country on official business. At the outset I will, if I may, take the opportunity to congratulate you, Sir, on your recent elevation to the position which I am sure you will fill very well.

The purpose of the Bill is to give Kilkenny Design Workshops Ltd. (KDW) statutory backing to provide for an increase in their ordinary share capital from £100 to £1 million and for the taking up by the Minister for Finance of shares in the company.

KDW, who were established in 1963, as a company limited by shares with a memorandum and articles of association, have primary responsibility for the promotion, assistance and development of Irish industrial design and the improvement of design standards. Prior to the establishment of KDW responsibility for industrial design resided first with the Arts Council and then with Córas Tráchtála. CTT still retain responsibility for the marketing and design needs of exporters. At present 130 people are employed, 82 in the workshops and 48 in the Dublin and Kilkenny shops. The company are financed by an annual grant-in-aid from my Department and by income from design fees and royalties.

KDW were set up in a very practical way with workshops, technicians and craftsmen and they have done excellent work for Irish industry, the consumer and the image of Ireland overseas. Their original charter was to help improve standards of design in the craft and craft-based industries and to stimulate public interest in good design. KDW have proved themselves so flexible and so responsive to industry's needs that what was a craft centre originally is now a well-known and respected multi-disciplinary design agency.

Kilkenny Design can now respond quickly and effectively to new demands from more advanced manufacturing concerns by supplying expertise in the design of high-value products, whether in metals or plastics or in more traditional materials. They also supply expertise in new processes or in adaptations of older ones. Most recently they have become very largely concerned, devoting now as much as 60 per cent of their resources, with work for the high-technology industries: in electronics, optics, telephone equipment and engineering products.

The designers work very closely with engineers and technologists in a way that shows that industrial design is a vital and integral discipline in product development by relating technology to the available means of production and, no less importantly, the product to its ultimate user. Good design is critical to the competitiveness of Irish goods both on the home and export markets and we must be able, now more so than ever, to produce and sell goods and services which are competitive in price and quality with those of other nations.

KDW's responsibilities fall into three areas. The first is the promotion of design consciousness at industry level and the provision of advice and practical design consultancy services to which I have already referred. These design services are dependent on and bound up with the technical services provided — model and prototype workshops, technical and research facilities and the design management and field services team which is the company's main activity, helping manufacturers to adjust to new markets and new demand, matching existing production capacities and capabilities to new ideas.

The second function is to foster and improve the special skills in industrial design which until very recently we have found difficult to provide for in our educational system. It is Kilkenny's job to articulate the needs of industry in matters of design to the responsible educational authorities. In the long term this could be the most important function of all.

Kilkenny Design have played a significant part in the recent introduction of degree courses in design. The company's active role in training begins in fact with young graduates after or near qualification, because Kilkenny is not itself an educational institution. It enables gifted young designers to enlarge their horizons and gain experience not available in Ireland by financing and administering their designer development awards.

Side by side with this scheme is the designer training programme which is partly financed by the European Social Fund. This brings young qualified designers to the workshops for periods of up to six months to work on real commissions alongside experienced designers. In combination these schemes provide precisely that goal-oriented and highly selective training which makes the difference between a gifted graduate and a professional designer who understands his responsibilities to the industrial client, the production engineer, the worker and the consumer.

The third party of the Kilkenny charter is to make the public more aware of the value of good design. During its early years KDW was very conscious that while Irish products were being vigorously promoted abroad there was nowhere in Ireland where the consumer, visitor or store buyer might see a representative range of the best of Irish design and workmanship in terms of every day products. It was this need that led in 1976 to the opening in Nassau Street, Dublin, of a retail exhibition centre — The Kilkenny Shop. This centre, together with the smaller retail operation in Kilkenny, provides a show place for the best consumer products designed and made in Ireland.

Many small industries depend on the KDW "shelf space" for initial launch of products. With its exhibitions, promotions and day to day trading the shop has made an impact upon public taste and at the same time has served the manufacturers well, both directly by opening up new markets and encouraging enterprise in supplying them, and indirectly by the marketing and commercial experience that has been added to the skills of Kilkenny Design itself.

The development has had another effect, The Kilkenny Shop has become the first stopping place for many visitors to Ireland. It has become a place where commercial buyers and consumers, many of them tourists, can be brought in the certainty that what they see will impress them. It has been called a national shop-window, and I do not think that is overstating the case. The Dublin shop has grown to such an extent that in 1981 turnover reached £1.3 million with over half a million people visiting the premises.

There is no doubt that the operation of the Dublin shop merits support. The retail operation was financed entirely by borrowings. The rise in interest rates on capital used for start-up and fittings together with a substantial increase in sales necessitating increased working capital and stock levels, have combined to produce a situation whereby a cumulative operating surplus after depreciation of £105,000 has been turned into a cumulative deficit of £187,000. It is estimated that an equity injection of £400,000 at the end of 1982 would produce a trading surplus after depreciation and interest of £70,000 in 1983 and thereby would reduce the cumulative deficit to £117,000.

Butler House comprising two Georgian buildings adjoining the workshops in Kilkenny is KDW's headquarters. It was purchased by KDW in 1971 and £370,000 was spent on renovation prior to the official opening in 1977. The main objective of Butler House is to bridge the gap between the academic training of designers at Kilkenny. While Butler House is self-financing on a day-to-day basis, an outstanding debt of £100,000 remains from the cost of renovations during the seventies.

At the request of my Department KDW's proposal that equity be injected into the company was examined by management consultants. They advised that a financial restructuring of KDW was justified from an economic viewpoint and recommended the injection of £400,000 equity into the retail operation and £100,000 equity into the design operation to repay the Butler House debt. The previous Government accepted the consultants' recommendations and made provision for a capital sum of £500,000 in this year's estimates. As a general principle I should say that there is an urgent need to avoid injecting share capital into State companies which do not remunerate such capital at levels generally applicable in the commercial sectors.

The share capital now proposed is £1 million, half of which would be taken up immediately by the Minister for Finance. This would permit the issue of shares to reduce existing borrowings by the Dublin shop — £400,000 — and the repayment of loans outstanding on the conversion of Butler House — £100,000. This would leave a balance of £500,000 which could be taken up at some future date to finance further capital development. The Dublin shop would, were it not burdened by the loan and interest payments associated with its financing, have been making within two or three years of its opening a contribution to the design and product development work that goes on in Kilkenny, helping to give the company the greater scope that it needs to meet the ever-changing demands of industry.

I commend this Bill to the House.

First of all, may I take this opportunity to congratulate my successor, who I understand is absent at the Council of Ministers for Energy in Copenhagen this morning. I wish him every success in what he will find a very busy but challenging and interesting Department. He will also find there an excellent team to back him up and I hope he enjoys it as much as I did.

This Bill before us this morning is in effect my Bill, so I do not propose to delay the Minister very long on it. I wish to recognise the importance of the Kilkenny Design Workshops in relation to the excellent standards they have set and how much they have improved the standards in design in industry in Kilkenny, in Butler House and, in more recent years, the opening of the shop in Dublin. The shop in Dublin is an excellent shop window for the arts and crafts industry and an excellent opportunity for small industrialists around the country to put their products on display. In the past they found great difficulty in finding shelf space for their products and an opportunity to display them.

The shop in Dublin has proved a very excellent place for the tourist industry. Most of the tours go there. The turnover in the first year there was in the region of £20,000 and in a few years it has gone over £1 million. It shows the right thinking behind the establishment of the shop in Dublin.

This Bill is to inject the equity, which was provided by the previous Government in this year's budget, of £400,000 into the retail shop and £100,000 for equity for Butler House in the design area. Everybody in the House will recognise that it is not possible to start a business, as happened here, on totally borrowed money, especially with the dramatic rise in interest rates in recent years and hope to exist. We recognised this and got Government approval for the injection of £400,000 into the shop and £100,000 into Butler House. This Bill provides the opportunity for the injection of that equity and provides also for further equity of £500,000 to cover future contingencies should such arise.

In this Bill, which was drafted during my last days in office, there is no provision for any limit. That point escaped my notice so perhaps the Minister would give it his attention.

Another matter to which I would draw the Minister's attention is that of the control by the Department of the Public Service in the area of salaries of chief executives. The question does not arise in the case of this semi-State body but it is a matter of principle in so far as other semi-State bodies are concerned, especially where we demand of these bodies that they operate purely on a commercial basis. Because of the size of the body we are dealing with today this problem may not arise. In a previous ministry I had occasion to take up this issue of paying the going rate of the day in the context of expecting to get the best man for the job. My successor may find that the matter will arise in relation to the drafting soon of a Bill in respect of another semi-State body and I shall be raising the point in more detail then.

The Bill before us is very necessary in order to provide the Kilkenny Design Workshops with the capital they require. They have been worthy of support down through the years. Apart from their workshops they are operating very successfully their outlet here in Dublin. I should like to pay tribute to them in regard to the high standards they have set in the cafeteria within their Dublin shop. It has become part and parcel of centre city stores. The friendliness and cordiality of the staff there are a fine example to anyone. The success of that shop has proved that the KDW can supplement their income in that way.

The main function of the workshops has been the improvement of standards in the design area. They have contributed greatly to the raising of standards both in workmanship and design. We wish them every success. They are worthy of any help that we can give them. They have done a good deal for people leaving school in helping them to develop their skills. In addition, they have made a magnificant contribution in the area of bringing arts and crafts into the market place. I assure them of my support for any measure we may be discussing here in relation to helping them.

I join with Deputy Reynolds in welcoming this Bill. From the time I spent in the Department some months ago I have some knowledge of the need for giving statutory backing to the Kilkenny Design Workshops. Consequently I am very pleased that this Bill is before us. It is essential in terms of giving confidence to the enterprise and also in the provision of a proper legal structure for the workshops as well as establishing them on the sound financial footing they need for their development.

I am aware of the work that is being done in the Dublin shop where standards are very high. I trust that the business can be run on a break-even, if not a profit-making basis. I say this because I agree with the principle that in so far as possible this should be the case in respect of State bodies.

I am aware, too, of the contribution of Córas Tráchtála who have responsibility for marketing and for the design needs of exporters. The work of Córas Tráchtála is vital to the type of industry we are talking about because such specialised industries need to have the very best available to them in terms of expertise and marketing. Therefore, I trust that Córas Tráchtála will continue to give sound backing and support in this area.

I am aware also of the existence of the Crafts Council of Ireland. They are very involved also in promoting the crafts industry. Some time ago I opened an exhibition which brought together the various commercial interests in the crafts industry. I understand that that exhibition was very successful but that it needs further support. The crafts council are under the aegis of the IDA so perhaps there should be a bringing together of the council and the Kilkenny Design Workshops. In recent times there was opened the Kilworth craft centre just outside Fermoy. The purpose of that centre is to increase the commercial knowledge and the management expertise needed by crafts people. It is a worthwhile development that has the backing of the Crafts Council of Ireland. Recently Deputy Reynolds as Minister stressed the need for small industrial development. In this respect the crafts industry is an ideal area on which to concentrate.

It is an area in which employment can be generated and generated on the basis of quality goods that can be exported. But this is an area that has been neglected to some extent in the commercial sense by successive Governments. I am of the opinion that the Crafts Council of Ireland should have representation on the board of directors of the Kilkenny Design Workshops. That would be one way of bringing together the interests of the Crafts Council with the KDW. Perhaps, too, Córas Tráchtála should be represented on the board of the KDW because there is a need to bring together the various interests in the craft industry.

This Bill affords an opportunity to bring a cohesiveness within what I would consider to be a very vital indigenous industry, one which has to a certain extent been neglected down the years and its potential grossly underestimated by Governments. I would hope that the IDA, with its interest in the Crafts Council of Ireland, will see to it that proper representation is secured for that council within Kilkenny Design Workshops Limited. That being so, it would seem from the Bill, which has my full support, that the Kilkenny Design Workshops are to be the centre of development of the craft industry. That is good. It is excellently situated in Kilkenny, gives good employment and is a development that is badly needed.

No mention is made in the Bill of the number of directors to be appointed but I take it it is in the Companies Acts, 1963-82. Perhaps I would prefer to see nominating bodies being allowed to have representation on the board of directors which would have ensured the vocational interest, if I may use those words, of those involved in the crafts industry. Therefore I welcome the Bill. I think it is necessary to give the Kilkenny Design Workshops their proper statutory basis. I hope they will flourish, that the crafts industry itself will flourish, as I think it will. I hope that the IDA and the Department of Industry and Energy will continue to invest in the development of what I consider to be one of Ireland's most important industries.

I should like to welcome the Bill, as I am sure all Deputies will, because I have had over the years some dealings with Kilkenny Design Workshops and I admire their activities and I express my pleasure that they are being put on perhaps a sounder statutory footing now and in particular that their capital situation is being rationalised because the financial context in which they had to operate over a number of years — indeed since their establishment — was unsatisfactory. In various discussions I had with the board over the years I have urged on them the necessity of endeavouring to highlight the purely industrial aspects of their activities as opposed to the purely crafts side. You cannot separate the two because you will not improve industrial design as such if the level of design generally does not improve.

I am very glad to see it stated in the Minister's speech today that they seem to have taken those urgings to heart and that a welcome but an unexpectedly high, proportion of their activities is now devoted to what might be described more specifically as industrial activity. To take perhaps an oversimplified example, I would say that it is tremendously important in this country, where our standard of industrial design has been so much below that of certain other European countries, that a long run of such an item as, say, a basic chair in the furniture industry should be properly designed rather than have resources devoted to helping a craftsman to design a once-off very perfect chair. On the other hand, I recognise that if you have not a craftsman who can design a once-off very perfect chair you do not develop the kind of design that gives you a high class long run. There is something of a dilemma there and there must be a mixture of both. I think the Kilkenny Design Workshops in recent years have met that challenge very well, having recognised it.

I wish to talk about the more commercial activities of the workshop but before that I should like to stress the fact that, while the shops tend to get a bit more publicity and may do so in this debate, the real kernel of the organisation, its task, is in design. I do not think we generally recognise the extent to which we lag behind other countries. One thinks of Denmark or the Scandinavian countries generally which are outstanding in this area. Quality of design is nowadays very much tied up, particularly for a country like ours, with ability to sell your products and to retain and even increase your workforce. We are not cheap producers of anything any more. The Scandinavians are not and have not been for a long time cheap producers but they are still thriving manufacturers because while they may be expensive their quality is so good that they are able to sell notwithstanding relatively high costs. We should have to see ourselves in that situation pretty soon and realise that we cannot compete on price in many areas, that we shall have to compete on quality and if we are to do so successfully we shall have to realise the importance of design to a greater extent than we have done so far. So far as there is significantly better understanding of its importance now than there was ten or 20 years ago, I think the Kilkenny Design Workshops deserve much of the credit for having changed that situation but it still has quite a long way to go.

Before concluding I wish to say a few words on the possibility of Kilkenny Design Workshops opening a further retail outlet in Limerick which has been under discussion for a year or 18 months. Some years ago I conceived with Shannon Development the idea of trying to promote urban renewal in a city which I felt was crying out for it. Perhaps it is the oldest city in this island and I was conscious of the need for its renewal before that concept became fashionable in other quarters. One of the things Shannon Development did at my urging was to get a private developer, to whom all credit should go, to take over an 18th century warehouse in Limerick and refurbish it. He has done that at a cost to him of somewhere between £2½ million and £3 million. It is now a splendid building and is being put to various uses. It is now just about completed. Shannonside Tourism Organisation have moved in there. They moved their headquarters there. Shannon Development have taken part of the premises as an exhibition centre for their matchmaker service, for which it is very suitable, and some private firms are in the process of moving in.

Much of one of the floors has been reserved for the Kilkenny Design Workshops. The ability of the developer to let part of the remainder of the premises is dependent on whether Kilkenny Design Workshops move in there. It is felt by other private operators that the standards associated with the Kilkenny shops is such that it will bring much business into the building. It is one of the happiest examples I know of an old building of this kind being restored in a genuine way. It is not just an external pastiche. It is a genuine restoration of a very important old commercial building and one would like to see it succeed. It is one of the first efforts of this kind here and if it is successful it will encourage other developers to take over other commercial buildings and restore them in the same way as the city of Boston has done in the Quincy market and as San Francisco has done with many of the buildings close to the piers. In parts of London and Copenhagen old commercial buildings have been restored. We do not lack such buildings in our cities. They are not just in Limerick but also in Dublin, Cork, Waterford and so on.

Kilkenny Design Workshops, because of a slightly unhappy experience they had some years ago with another shop where they made an error of judgement, are perhaps more cautious now than they might otherwise be. The Department of Finance might look at them a little more coldly than would have been the case if an error had not been made elsewhere. On account of that caution they have not finally committed themselves to Limerick. It is important that they should, not just for commercial reasons but to encourage what has been done so successfully in the Granary building in Limerick. If they do not move in it will not be a commercial success and if it is not a commercial success it will not be repeated. It would be a great tragedy if it was not repeated.

Great credit is due to the developer who put in a substantial amount of his own money without public assistance of any significance other than in terms of renting space. He has offered Kilkenny Design Workshops a very attractive package. They will not have to expend any capital moneys in advance. They will only have to pay an annual rent for the part of the premises they occupy. It is not a high rent by contemporary standards.

I hope that the concern, as a result of the passage of this Bill and their financial restructuring, will have the confidence to go ahead with the project, which is important for more than just commercial reasons. I look forward to the Bill being passed rapidly and wish the board and staff of this organisation every success in the strengthened position they will be in after the passage of this legislation.

I agree with the support for the Kilkenny Design Workshops and for this Bill. I do not agree with Deputy Collins when he said that its main thrust should be concerned with the question of craft industry or small industry, although these should be assisted. Its main thrust should be in the area of industrial design generally. We will have to make a drastic change in our industrial pattern. We have been developing along the lines of a low wage economy in assembly type industries. Despite depressing our wages we are not able to compete with countries who have lower wages. Therefore, we must alter our industrial strategy. We must have better production, marketing and design of products. Kilkenny Design Workshops have not been allowed into the basic areas of industrial design, taking into account the technological era which is upon us and in which we must become involved if we are to have any hope of developing an industrial economy in the next decade.

While I agree with the Bill, we should be thinking of far greater things for the Kilkenny Design Workshops and a greater relationship between them and industry. Perhaps there could be a greater association between the IDA, other bodies involved in industrial production and Kilkenny Design Workshops. This goes for every field of industry from the packaging of materials to the production of goods. Design is what will sell our products together with good marketing.

Efficiency in industry has come to mean low wages. It is said that if we raise our wages we become inefficient and unable to compete. The whole economy becomes depressed. If over the next ten or 15 years through education, research and development we improve our marketing and design we can compete at a different level with other countries in Western Europe, many of which have twice our wage levels. They are in a different league in terms of capital investment in industry for higher productivity and in terms of marketing and design.

I agree with the terms of the Bill but feel that something more is needed for the future. There should be a greater input in terms of finance and assistance generally for Kilkenny Design Workshops to bring them more into the industrial field and to ensure that the design of our products is up to standard in order to compete on world markets.

Ba maith liom i dtosach comhghairdeas a dhéanamh leatsa ar do thogadh mar Cheann Comhairle. Tá súil agam go bhfanfaidh tú san suíochán sin le ceann ceithre bliain agus go mbeidh saol sona sásta agat i rith an ama sin.

It is my privilege as a Kilkenny man to welcome this Bill. I am particularly pleased that Kilkenny has been to the forefront in creating an awareness of design in both crafts and craft-based industries. This is vital to the development of our industrial techniques and structures. In the beginning Kilkenny Design Workshops struggled because of financial difficulties and I am glad that the State has come to recognise the important role they are playing and will continue to play in the development of industry.

In the developed economies more and more people are losing their jobs because of the introduction of high technology and if we are to survive in this difficult rat race we must upgrade and update our industrial designs and techniques. KDW have made an enormous contribution already. I am certain that with considerable State subventions and assistance they will continue to improve our products and generate sufficient interest in world and European markets to create further jobs during the next four or five years.

Quality in design is critical to the development of industry. In the Kilkenny area there is a tremendous awareness of the value of crafts and the skills that are an inherent part of the local scene and this must be to the benefit of the country at large. Deputy O'Malley has mentioned that a new workshop will be opened in Limerick, a major centre of population. About 130 jobs have already been created, 80 in Kilkenny and the rest in Dublin. This is a significant achievement and apart from those jobs within the workshops there are many more vital jobs elsewhere.

Cost competitiveness is vital if we are to survive in industry. When one examines trade statistics one sees that many raw materials are being imported at very high cost. If we are to continue creating jobs we must become more conscious of our own resources. Any assistance that can be given to the development of better design and quality is commendable. I welcome the Bill and I am glad that legislation is being enacted whereby the importance to our economy of Kilkenny Design Workshops is fully recognised.

I thank those Deputies who have spoken on Second Stage. This must have been a maiden speech by Deputy Dowling, although I know he was a sturdy contributor in the other House. I should think it was also a maiden speech on the part of Deputy Mac Giolla.

The recognition which has been given by Deputies to the purpose and role of KDW is interesting in that there has been developing in recent years a much higher awareness of the importance of good presentation and design in the area of research and development and marketing generally. The realisation of that importance has been evident in the contributions made this morning. For too long many of our products, whilst good in themselves, were not packaged or marketed properly or were not up to the highest standards of quality and design. The contribution of KDW is considerable and very commendable.

The training of high-class industrial designers is vitally important to the future development of industry and the marketing of high-quality products at home and abroad. Deputy Mac Giolla referred to lack of concentration in the area of high technology. I appreciate that in the past we did not have a sufficiently high awareness of the importance of becoming involved in the higher technology sectors where wages and salaries are at a much higher level than in other parts of industry. That cannot be said of KDW in recent times. In my earlier speech I said that KDW have become very largely concerned with work for the high technology industries and now devote as much as 60 per cent of their resources to areas of electronics, optics, telephone equipment and engineering products. That is a welcome development which I hope that KDW will continue to emphasise. It is important that they produce industrial designers of a high standard in areas of newer technology. If we do not as a nation become more and more involved in developing firms which are viable in these areas then we are lost as an economy.

Deputy Reynolds made a specific point regarding the limitation on KDW borrowings. There is in section 10 a provision that the firm may not borrow without the prior approval of their own Minister but there is the important rider that the consent of the Minister for Finance must also be sought. It is the intention of the Government that in relation to all such bodies the consent of the Minister for Finance must be sought in relation to any borrowings. I take the point made by Deputy Reynolds that there must be some form of control and assessment of the level of borrowing being carried out by individual firms in the State and semi-State areas.

Deputy Collins referred to the need for close liaison between KDW and the Craft Council of Ireland. I understand that there is already a close working relationship between those two bodies. It will be part of the Government's strategy in the industrial area to determine how services from the various State agencies can be streamlined and rationalised so as to ensure that the best and most efficient possible service is provided by the different arms of the State to industry.

Deputy O'Malley spoke at some length about the need for urban renewal in Limerick, a viewpoint with which I concur having some knowledge of that city. I take the point he made about his concern for Limerick inner city renewal before that became fashionable in other areas. I regret, as he does, his lack of success in managing to conclude any arrangement which might have furthered the Limerick inner city programme. His aspirations are shared by many Members of this House.

He asked about opening a Kilkenny Design workshop in Limerick but until the financial restructuring which is being made possible through the enactment of this Bill takes place, the question of opening a shop there could not be finalised. While the provision of a design shop marketing high level design products should be examined on its own merits, I do not think the fact that such a shop would attract customers into using other facilities in the same area is a fair criterion on which to decide whether Kilkenny Design Workshops should open another premises in one place or another. Any proposal for opening a Kilkenny Design workshop or any other State enterprise should be examined on its viability. One of the problems in relation to the shop in Nassau Street was that it was financed through borrowings and while making a trading surplus it has been returning a deficit because of high interest charges outstanding on the remaining capital borrowed. This is an area which will have to be given Government attention.

As I said earlier, as a general principle there is an urgent need to avoid injecting share capital into State companies which do not remunerate such capital at levels generally applicable in the commercial sector. That applies to Kilkenny Design Workshops as much as to other enterprises in the State sector.

I thank Deputies for their contributions to this Bill and again want to apologise for the absence of the Minister who is away on Government business. I want to congratulate you, Sir, on your promotion as Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Everyone in this House knows you will fill the position admirably.

I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
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