Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 Feb 1983

Vol. 339 No. 9

Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Bill, 1982: Second Stage.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment (Mr. Quinn)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill originated two Governments ago. Effectively it was drafted and put together during the period of office of the previous Government. It is now my task to introduce its Second Stage into the House.

The main purpose of this Bill is to enable the Local Appointments Commissioners to resume their practice of awarding credit for a knowledge of Irish when selecting or recommending candidates for posts in local authorities, health boards and other bodies. The Bill will also clarify and confirm the commissioners' powers in relation to the selection of candidates, the type of competition and the short listing of candidates and will provide a statutory basis for the making of regulations by the commissioners in connection with competitions to be conducted by them. The Bill will make statutory provision for the non-application of the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926, as amended, to posts of town clerk in smaller urban district councils.

The need for this Bill arises from a finding of the Supreme Court in December 1979 that the commissioners had acted beyond their powers in granting extra credit for a knowledge of Irish to candidates being selected and recommended by them for appointment. This finding arises from a case decided by the High Court and appealed to the Supreme Court by the Local Appointments Commissioners.

Since 1974 it has been Government policy that, although Irish is no longer obligatory for entry to the public service, Irish and English are of equal value and candidates showing proficiency in both languages get credit for this. The commissioners were implementing that policy by awarding credit to candidates for proficiency in both languages. This was in line with the policy and practice in relation to competitions conducted by the Civil Service Commissioners. As a result of the court decision, the Local Appointments Commissioners had no option but to suspend the award of such credit. This Bill is essential to enable the commissioners to resume implementation of Government policy in this regard.

Section 2 of the Bill will enable the commissioners to award credit to candidates who have proficiency in both official languages and to take into consideration training, knowledge and experience over and above the minimum qualifications for the particular post being filled.

Up to the time of the Supreme Court finding the commissioners had in the normal process of selection given regard to such additional attainments. This is necessary to ensure that the best qualified and most suitable candidate is selected, as the basic qualifications for an office are, by definition, minimum qualifications. However, the Supreme Court finding requires that the commissioners' practice in this regard be covered by enabling legislation.

The commissioners' powers to select candidates are set out under sections 8 and 9 of the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926, and section 29 of the Local Government Act, 1955. These provide that selection shall be by competitive examination which has been interpreted as meaning written examination. When this is not feasible, as happens in practically every case, selection may, with the consent of the appropriate Minister, be in such manner as the commissioners think proper. Effectively the commissioners use the services of interview boards to assist them in their selection of candidates.

In their finding the Supreme Court ruled that the powers of selection of the commissioners were limited and did no more than vest in the commissioners discretion as to the manner of selection to be employed as an alternative to competitive examination. In view of the Supreme Court finding it is considered desirable to spell out beyond doubt the exact powers of the commissioners in the area of selecting candidates.

It is felt that the procedure adopted by the Civil Service Commissioners is the most appropriate and sections 3 and 4 of the Bill have been modelled on corresponding provisions in the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956. Briefly, these provide that selection shall be by competition consisting of one or more specified types of tests. They cover also the short-listing of candidates and the making of regulations by the commissioners in relation to the holding of such competitions.

Apart from the foregoing proposals, which arise out of the Supreme Court findings already mentioned, problems have existed for some time in relation to posts of town clerk in the smaller urban district councils, selection for the filling of all of which are, by virtue of the provisions of the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926, made by the Local Appointments Commissioners. Experience has shown that there is a very high turnover in these posts. Over the years, however, representations have been made by public representatives and others to have these posts in the smaller urban district councils filled by local competition which would also be open to all qualified candidates. It has been represented that this would reduce somewhat the degree of turnover in such posts.

This issue was raised in the course of discussions between management and staff side interests under the conciliation and arbitration scheme for local authorities and health services on the grading, salaries and other matters related to town clerks generally. Under the agreement reached between the management and staff sides in the matter, it was agreed that when a suitable opportunity arose proposals would be formulated for incorporation in legislation whereby town clerk posts in urban district councils with a population of less than 9,000 would no longer be filled on the recommendation of the Local Appointments Commissioners.

Section 6 of the Bill provides for this by excluding the town clerk posts from the scope of the Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) Act, 1926. Town clerks in these urban districts will in future be recruited by the local authority concerned in accordance with the Local Government (Appointment of Officers) Regulations, 1974, which govern the filling of all local authority offices except those filled on the recommendation of the Local Appointments Commissioners. While this proposal does not arise because of the Supreme Court finding, it is felt that the opportunity presented by the present legislative proposals to implement the commitment made under the conciliation and arbitration scheme in relation to the filling of town clerk posts should be availed of.

The Local Appointments Commissioners have established an unrivalled record for fairness in making selection for posts in the period of over 50 years since they were established. The legislative provisions under which they operate do, however, require up-dating to ensure that the statutory framework under which they operate is absolutely clearcut. This is the aim of the present porposals.

I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

Aontaím leis an mBille atá os ár gcomhair anois. I compliment the Minister on his appointment and wish him every success during his term of office. As he said, this Bill was prepared during the periods of office of a few Governments. Having been brought so far by his predecessor, Deputy Ray Burke, it is understandable that on behalf of my party I support the terms of the Bill as introduced.

The main purpose of the Bill is to enable the Local Appointments Commission to resume the practice of awarding credits, which practice was discontinued because of a Supreme Court decision. In fact, that decision involved a medical person from my city. All sides of the House agree on the necessity for the Bill and Fianna Fáil assured the Minister of State of their co-operation in giving it an expeditious passage through the House. We are maintaining the approach that has existed this afternoon with regard to measures before the House.

In recent years there has been a growing volume of legislation as a result of decisions by the courts and this is another such example. The Bill enables the Local Appointments Commission to resume a practice they were forced to suspend because of the Supreme Court decision. The Bill, as was outlined by the Minister of State, also allows some other changes to be made in the whole operations of the Local Appointments Commission and the duties they perform. The Minister stated that section 2 of the Bill will enable the commissioners to award credit to candidates who have proficiency in both official languages and to take into consideration training, knowledge and experience over and above the minimum qualifications, for the post being filled. Tá mé ana-shásta leis seo. Tá áthas orm go bhfuil an cás anois mar a bhí sé roimh beartas na cúirte.

An important point has been raised by the Minister of State and one that I welcome. I am referring to the appointment of town clerks in small urban areas. I should qualify what I am saying by stating I am well aware that some of our best county managers came up through the local authority system. However, in recent years I do not think the high turnover of town clerks in small towns has been of any help to the areas concerned. It has happened frequently that people have left the position of town clerk and the new appointment might not be made for a period of nine or 12 months. That pattern might well continue with the next appointment and so on. To some extent small urban areas have suffered and I am glad that the local administration will be in a position to make what will obviously be more permanent appointments.

If possible, I should like the Minister in his reply to give us a list of the number of towns that will come under the new arrangement. What has been proposed here is an important step forward and it will have our support. Obviously local people will have the opportunity of qualifying on a more permanent basis and will become involved in the municipal affairs of the town in question. Some of our best administrators have come through the system. Many of them started their careers in small towns. Operating in small areas gives them an intimate knowledge of local problems and is a most useful apprenticeship. I agree with the Minister that this move was necessary because the smaller urban areas suffered to some extent.

This matter was raised by public representatives for many years but it was also raised in the course of discussions between management and staff sides under the C&A scheme for local authorities and health services. These discussions related to the grading, salaries and other matters with reference to town clerks. The Minister has stated that under the agreement reached between the management and staff sides in the matter it was agreed that when a suitable opportunity arose proposals would be formulated for incorporation in legislation relating to small towns. It is good that such agreement has been reached. This legislation was prepared by a number of Governments and it will put into practice what is regarded as the right way forward.

Other changes are being made to give the Local Appointments Commission the same opportunities presently available to the Civil Service Commission. I support this approach. The Minister has stated that the Local Appointments Commissioners have established an unrivalled record for fairness in making selection for posts and I agree with him. It is very important that appointments be completely independent. I have no doubt that the Civil Service Commission and the Local Appointments Commission are absolutely fair and independent. There are times of difficulty. When I was Minister for the Public Service I remember there was a major row in this House. I was endeavouring not to interfere with the normal workings of the Civil Service Commission but Deputies on all sides of the House brought to my notice a problem which arose one summer, namely, that coming close to examination times people were being forced to take up appointments. This happened four or six weeks before the leaving certificate examination and naturally parents were anxious that their children should get that time. This was granted reluctantly in some cases and was refused in other cases. I felt it was time to talk to these people. Unfortunately some people leaked to the newspapers the story that this awful Minister for the Public Service was trying to interfere with the selection procedure.

That was far from my intention, but bodies such as the Local Appointments Commission or the Civil Service Commission must be aware of the democratic system and must remember that we, as Members of this House elected by the people, should have no say in the selection of candidates. If difficulties arise for the people we represent it is only right that we as representatives, through the Minister of the day, should bring them to their attention and express our views on what we think is a fairer system. As I said last week when speaking on Dáil reform, we as Members of the House attending at our clinics each week are alerted to problems in areas of civil service administration, and if in a week we hear of a few problems of a similar nature, obviously something is wrong. When Deputies of different political affiliations and from different parts of the country make representations in such regard, then obviously problems are arising.

I support the Minister of State on this Bill. He is very wise in availing of the opportunity of updating the variety of choices available to the Local Appointments Commission in line with the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956. I say on behalf of all of us in this House to the administrative section of the public service that we as elected Members are entitled to be listened to in regard to such problems. At times there appears to be a fear or suspicion among people in public service administration that we politicians are always trying to interfere in regard to appointments. Our integrity is defensible, whatever shade of political opinion we may hold. It is wise that I should say to the Minister of State here, and I have no objection to it being conveyed back to the Local Appointments Commission, that while we appreciate the fairness of their appointments at times the appointees have not been suitable for the posts to which they were appointed, whoever may have been on the interview board.

I have availed of the opportunity to make these few points, while dealing with what I think is an important step forward. The principal purpose of the Bill is to enable the Local Appointments Commission to resume what they had been doing prior to the Supreme Court decision. The Minister of State is making very desirable changes in respect of the operations of the commission themselves, in particular in regard to the appointments of town clerks in towns of less than 9,000 population. It is wise to do that. My comments refer to very few of the appointments made. The vast majority of appointments made by the Civil Service Commission, who do not come under this, or the Local Appointments Commission are excellent, but the few are not always above reproach. If we in this House, realising the problems of our constituencies, bring some of these problems to their notice, then they should listen.

I repeat my good wishes to the Minister of State on his appointment and wish him every success.

Mr. Taylor

First of all I would like to be associated with the remarks of Deputy Fitzgerald in extending congratulations to the Minister of State on his first prime function in the House in moving the Second Stage of this Bill, which all sides of the House will welcome. Those Members of the House who also have served on local authorities for long have known and been aware of the very high calibre of officers and employees and the very high standard of service of local authorities up and down the country. We rely on those people to carry out very many and wide-ranging functions and tasks of great and supreme importance to the lives of ordinary people. In particular those officials who work in the planning departments of the big local authorities have a key role to play. It is vital that the selected procedures dealt with in the Bill should be objective and fair and ensure that the men and women coming forward are well fitted to meet the arduous, diverse and in many cases complex cases that face them, but it is also important to ensure that they are provided in sufficient numbers to enable them to have a reasonable opportunity to carry out those tasks efficiently. In many cases that has not happened and many big local authorities, as a result of cutbacks and constraints in making appointments of officers and employees to them, face a serious situation and in many areas that situation is ongoing, particularly where development of estates of houses is taking place intensively. My area of County Dublin is one example and it is by no means unique. There are such areas throughout the country.

The functions of planning officers are varied and it is very important that sufficient staff be provided in the planning departments to enable them to do their job not in a perfunctory manner but very thoroughly. For the examination of foundations of estates of new houses in the course of construction inspectors in sufficient numbers should be appointed to enable detailed examination to take place. I fear that in many areas where development is taking place extensively that does not happen.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is not satisfied that this is within the scope of the Bill. I do not think that the Local Appointments Commission have any control over the number of people employed. They simply make appointments as requested by various Departments. Perhaps the Deputy will bear that in mind.

Mr. Taylor

Of course I will, but I would make the point that they are concerned with the calibre of the candidates appointed to these posts. I am making the point that it is unfair and unreasonable that people of that calibre who are appointed to these posts——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is perfectly in order.

Mr. Taylor

—— should not be enabled to carry out those tasks in a detailed, comprehensive manner. It is unfair to the members of the public also. There have been developments by judicial decision in recent years, quite apart from the Supreme Court decision dealt with in the Minister's speech, which would tend now to make local authorities liable in the event of a house purchaser, for example, suffering as a result of an inadequate inspection having been carried out. There have been such cases particularly in the UK, which very likely would be followed here, where local authorities face consequent loss of substantial sums of public money in the event of that happening. Therefore, it is important that adequate staff, not only in the planning inspection side but also in the planning enforcement side, be made available to the local authorities. I am afraid that that has not happened. In many cases the staff there is altogether inadequate, and that throws an unfair burden on those first class officials who strive in the enforcement section of the local authorities to do the tasks appointed to them.

Likewise an altogether unfair burden is placed on the officers who work in the legal section of many local authorities. Members of the public find now that they are held up very often for many months waiting for their loan application to be processed and their loan cheques to come through. That places a very unfair burden particularly on young couples who are waiting for these loans to come through and are burdened with very heavy bridging finance. It places an altogether intolerable burden on the unfortunate officials in the legal departments of the local authorities who are trying to cope ——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry. The Deputy may discuss the quality of the people appointed but not the numbers or quantity of them because the commission have no authority over that.

Mr. Taylor

Notwithstanding the magnificent quality that those officials have, the burdens placed upon them are altogether beyond their capacity to deal with them. Therefore, I beseech the Minister to ensure that, in the big local authorities certainly, not only are the appointment procedures first class — as I am sure they are — but that adequacy also is provided at all levels of planning and enforcement procedures.

Mr. McLoughlin

I worked in a local authority for 20 years until recently and I would like to welcome section 6 of the Bill which allows for the appointment of town clerks locally. I would like to elaborate on why I am very happy with this decision. I want to compliment the Minister of State for bringing this Bill before the House to allow for this. A town clerk in any town, particularly in a town of 4,000 to 9,000 people, is a very important officer. I have seen changes of town clerks in many of those towns on a regular basis, as you will know from being a member of Cavan County Council. A town clerk's job is almost as important as the job of a county secretary. In a county council a staff officer for roads deals specifically with roads, a staff officer for housing deals specifically with housing and a man in charge of rates deals with rates. A town clerk has to have a knowledge of water, sewerage, housing, planning and rents. He deals with all aspects of a local authority. It is very important to a town, particularly a large one, to have a good town clerk, a man who is interested in that town, interested in working with the local urban councillors, interested in seeing that town develop, that the Department allow finance for housing, roads, sewerage, water and that when there are building projects coming from that town houses can be served by water and sewerage schemes. I welcome that aspect of the Bill.

I know that Deputy Fitzgerald spoke about fair appointments and he mentioned the appointment of town clerks. As long as I was a member of Meath County Council — I say this without any fear of contradiction — I did not know of any case where there was political pull in the appointment of a town clerk or a clerical officer. Politicians should not interfere in the appointment of staff in local authorities. A person should get a job on his or her ability. The recommendations of politicians should not be accepted. When in relation to a civil service post it says "canvassing disqualifies" the civil service should strictly adhere to that aspect of it.

Mr. Gene Fitzgerald

On a point of order, I hope the Deputy is not suggesting that I said that politicians should interfere.

Mr. McLoughlin

No. I will always welcome the appointment of a local man as town clerk, a man who possibly was reared in the town, brought up in the town and has an interest in it. I remember in Trim on numerous occasions seeing a town clerk leaving and getting promotion to another town. I have seen a person appointed to act in his place and then the Local Appointments Commission improperly appointed a person from outside. That person only stayed three or four months in the job. The acting man was then back again. This happened time and time again until he finally got the post. It takes a person in any Government job — the same is true of Dáil Deputies — six months to get into the running of a job. When this Bill is passed and in small towns we can get town clerks appointed who will stay a long time in the job, this will be for the betterment of the towns as a whole.

This is my first time speaking in the Dáil and I would like to compliment Deputy Ruairí Quinn on his appointment as Minister of State at the Department of the Environment. I wish him the best of luck because as a Deputy he has always been very good to councillors of my party. I know he will be a very able Minister of State in the Department of the Environment.

Mr. Prendergast

Ba mhaith liom cuidiú leis an chuid sin den Bille seo a bhaineann le aitheantas a thabhairt do iomathóirí do phostanna san rialtas áitiúil ó thaobh Gaeilge de. Ní mór dom a chur in iúl don Dáil go bhfuil imní ar lucht leanúna Gaeilge le blianta beaga anuas ó baineadh an éiginteacht den Ghaeilge san Ard Teist i 1974 mar tá sé á ghlacadh agus a admháil go poiblí anois, is oth liom a rá, le déanaí le lucht leanúna na Gaeilge go bhfuil cúis na Gaeilge á tréigeadh ag Rialtas i ndiaidh Rialtais le blianta fada anuas agus go mór mhór tá sé thar a bheith tábhachtach, is dóigh liom anois, go mbeadh tacaíocht poiblí so-fheicthe á thabhairt ag Rialtas na tíre seo do chúis na Gaeilge. Dá bhrí sin creidim go bhfuil sé thar a bheith práinneach go bhfuil an gné seo den Bhille glactha ag an Teach seo agus ba mhaith liom tréaslú leis an Teachta Gene Fitzgerald ar son Fhianna Fáil nach bhfuil aon easaontas ar an ábhar seo idir an Rialtas agus an Freasúra mar tá stair Fhianna Fáil, caithfidh mé a admháil, ana-mhaith ó thaobh na ceiste seo de.

Ag caint liom faoin ghné seo den Bhille ní mór dom tréaslú do Bhord na Gaeilge as ucht an saothair ana-fiúntach atá déanta acu le blianta beaga anuas ó thaobh athbeocaint na Gaeilge. Is cuimhin liomsa go raibh seiminear ana-fiúntach againn siar i gCeathrú Rua i gConamara timpeall dhá bliain ó shin. Tháinig moltaí ana-mhaith ar fad ón seiminear sin agus ceann des na moltaí ab annsa liomsa ar aon chuma ná go mbunófaí i gach rialtas áitiúil grúpa stiúrtha chun cúis na Gaeilge a chur chun cinn agus i mo rialtas áitiúil féin, sin bardas Luimnigh, tá ana-dul chun cinn déanta againne. Bhunaíomar grúpa stiúrtha ar a raibh oifigigh an bhardais agus daoine a toghadh go poiblí — daoine mar chomhairleoiri agus mar sin de. Tagann siad siúd le chéile go rialta agus tá ana-dul chun cinn déanta acu, go mór mhór ó thaobh moladh eile fiúntach a tháinig ón seiminear úd i gConamara, is é sin le rá gur glacadh le polasaí go poiblí ag Bardas Luimnigh, aon áit a bhí log ainm comhionann sa Ghaeilge agus as Béarla go nglacfaí leis an leagan Gaeilge mar an leagan oifigiúil den logainm, cuirim i gcás Garryowen nó Ballinacurra nó Corbally. Aon áit a raibh an ainm sin comhionann as Béarla agus as Gaeilge ba chóir dúinn an leagan Gaeilge a ghlacadh mar an leagan oifigiúil agus ba mhaith liom an smaoineamh sin a chur chuig an Aire: b'fhéidir go bhféadfaimís glacadh le sin i ngach aon rialtas áitiúil sa tír seo Tréaslaím arís don Aire as ucht an chéim a bhaint amach dó féin agus as ucht an smaoinimh atá taobh thiar den Bhille seo. Cuidím leis an Bhille agus glacaim leis go hiomlán.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment (Mr. Quinn)

I would like to thank the Deputies from all sides of the House for the congratulations and best wishes they have given to me in my position as Minister of State. As the speaker for the Opposition, Deputy Fitzgerald indicated that this Bill has passed through a number of administrations. It is fair to say that it has received the support of all the Members of the House. The legislation is fairly clear and self-evident.

A number of questions arose from the contributions of the Deputies who spoke and I will try to deal with them as they arose. The first was raised by Deputy Fitzgerald in relation to the number of towns that will be affected. There are 44 towns with a population of less than 9,000 which will now, as a result of this enabling legislation, be able to appoint town clerks in such a way as to avoid the problems that Deputy McLoughlin referred to. Eight of the towns are in Deputy Fitzgerald's county so the Deputy is more than represented in his concern of how necessary this Bill is in relation to section 6.

Deputy Fitzgerald referred to representations. In fairness to the Deputy, and to Deputy McLoughlin, the Deputy was not suggesting that intervention should be made by political parties but that the political experience accumulated by public representatives should not be discarded but should have some input into the system. Deputy Fitzgerald, as a former Minister for the Public Service, must be aware that from time to time the Civil Service Commissioners and the Local Appointments Commissioners receive deputations and complaints from the managers' associations, various staff unions and groups. It would be quite appropriate for the political parties, as corporate bodies, to make known their representations in a general form to the Local Appointments Commissioners and the Civil Service Commissioners to bring forward the points. There may be other areas where amendments to the procedure could be made with a view to improving the quality of local democracy.

Deputy Taylor raised the question of the quality of staff in local authorities. As a result of this Bill, as well as proficiency in both languages relevant and direct experience will be taken into account. This will be the case in relation to how large local authorities can take on themselves the staff needed to do all the work involved. The Ceann Comhairle was anxious that Deputy Taylor would not go too far down the road in respect of the difficulties of staffing in Dublin Corporation and Dublin County Council. This administration have inherited an extremely difficult position in relation to staffing levels in certain sections of the overall system and while I cannot deal with that in the context of this legislation, it is my hope that the whole question of local government reform, particularly in areas that are experiencing rapid urban growth, will be dealt with within the four-to-five year term of this administration and that under that umbrella it will be possible for each local authority at the appropriate levels to have the necessary qualified staff.

Deputy McLoughlin in his maiden speech indicated clearly that he understands the problems of a small town. I support the idea that the town clerk should be able to make a career of his position as town clerk in a particular place. Working very much with the urban district council, he would see his task as being that of the development and the promotion of his town, having the knowledge of the local authority system that either a town clerk or a county secretary has and getting to know the various groups — the trade unions, the chambers of commerce, the voluntary organisations and so on. We are into an era in which we must make a reality of the proposal that small is beautiful and that a small town working with a career-orientated town clerk, can promote the welfare of that town in a way in which, because of the limitation of the legislation we have had up to now, was not possible. I trust that Members on all sides of the House will try to ensure that local authority posts will be filled in the way that is most effective and beneficial for the towns and for the communities concerned.

I support also Deputy McLoughlin's remarks about people getting jobs on merit. Part of the problem that all politicians experience is the persistent belief among many of the public that in some way we can fix jobs for everyone irrespective of what the post or the terms of reference of the job may happen to be. It is incumbent on all Members of the House to ensure that fairness prevails, that there is no canvassing and that people best qualified for a post get that post in a fair and objective manner. This must be underlined especially for young people leaving second or third level education at a time when job prospects are very bad. The whole fabric of our democratic structures would be put at risk if these people believed that support for a political party or for a political individual would be repaid by way of favour in respect of a post to which someone would not be entitled otherwise. At a time of such great social change we should all have regard to what Deputy McLoughlin has had to say on this matter.

Tá náire orm nach bhfuil Gaeilge mhaith agam agus nach bhfuil mé in ann an Teachta Prendergast a fhreagairt as Gaeilge. However, I support the Deputy's contention that people should be able to do business in both languages so far as the local authorities are concerned. Now that the legal cloud has been lifted, Bord na Gaeilge should be encouraged to promote the idea that people wishing to do business with local authorities either in Irish or in English should have that facility. Perhaps local authorities in conjunction with Bord na Gaeilge and the Minister for the Gaeltacht would consider the whole question of bilingualism within the local authority system.

At a time of extraordinary cultural invasion by way of multi-channel television and so on, it is incumbent on all of us to maintain a sense of our culture and identity. Undoubtedly, the Irish language is part of that culture. As Deputy Prendergast emphasised, this is an area in which the local authorities could do a great deal. I thank the various Deputies for their remarks during the debate.

Mr. Prendergast

I should like to comment briefly lest I did not make myself sufficiently clear when speaking earlier. I was suggesting the adoption by local authorities who have not already done so of a recommendation that emerged from a Bord na Gaeilge seminar for officials and elected representatives of local authorities in Carraroe a couple of years ago. This was that in areas where the local place names had the same sound in Irish as in English, the Irish version of the name be adopted as the official version for purposes of correspondence, road signs and so on. A brief example of what I have in mind might be helpful. I was responsible for proposing this policy in Limerick and I am glad that it was adopted unanimously by Limerick Corporation. There was set up a group of officers and public representatives for the promotion of Irish within the local authority. That was on foot of another proposal that had come from the seminar in Carraroe. Since then Limerick Corporation have adopted the proposal that places such as Corbally, Garryowen and Ballinacurra appear in the Irish version of the names for official purposes. A good example in this respect has been shown by CIE in terms of the indication of bus destinations. Perhaps the lead given by Limerick Corporation in this matter could be adopted by the Department at national level. It would be one useful way of indicating to those of us who are interested in and love the Irish language, that there is official dedication to the promotion and use of the language in every way possible. This policy has been followed extensively in Wales.

Mr. Quinn

I support strongly these proposals by the Deputy but I am tempered by the realisation that as a nation we have not been very successful generally in this area in the past 50 years. Therefore, as the Department have urged in the past, I would urge that voluntary support from the local authorities is the most valuable factor in this whole matter. Where a local authority wish to promote this, they will get the encouragement of the Department. I will look at the Deputies' proposal to see how we in the Custom House can follow this.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.