Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 22 Feb 1983

Vol. 340 No. 4

Appointment of Minister of State: Announcement by Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

I beg leave to announce for the information of the Dáil that, on 18 February 1983 the Government appointed Deputy Ted Nealon, Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, to be Minister of State at the Department of Posts and Telegraphs also with special responsibility for radio and television.

The exercise of the responsibilities allocated to the Minister of State will, in accordance with statute and practice, be subject to the general superintendence and control of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, who will remain fully responsible for all the departmental powers and duties.

Mr. Haughey

May I point out that unfortunately the Taoiseach did not give us any notice of his intention to make this announcement? Perhaps I am in order in submitting a question to him?

An Ceann Comhairle

I would not say so. Standing Orders do not provide for a statement or discussion on an announcement, as I know the Leader of the Opposition is aware.

Mr. Barrett

(Dún Laoghaire): May I apologise to the Leader of the Opposition? Due to a breakdown in communications between my office and the office of the Opposition Whip, the Leader of the Opposition was not informed of this announcement. The notice went to the Ceann Comhairle's office by mistake instead of to the Whip's office.

Mr. Haughey

I am always prepared to acknowledge the Chief Whip and the Whip on this side of the House for whom I have the utmost regard. Perhaps in the circumstances the Ceann Comhairle might permit me——

An Ceann Comhairle

In the circumstances and on the understanding that this is not creating a precedent, the Leader of the Opposition may ask a short question.

Mr. Haughey

I deeply appreciate that. I want to remind the Taoiseach that, when I asked him before in this House about the allocation of functions and whether there was any question of transferring responsibility for RTE to his office, he gave me a categorical assurance to the contrary.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is a statement.

Mr. Haughey

It is leading up to the question.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is obviously a statement.

Mr. Haughey

Does the Taoiseach think we do not all see through the device he is now adopting by nominally appointing Deputy Nealon——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have to rule the Leader of the Opposition out of order. I am very sorry to have to do it, but it is obviously a statement.

Mr. Haughey

It is a question.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is now opening up a debate on the announcement and the Chair simply cannot allow that.

Mr. Haughey

A Cheann Comhairle, as you know it is our very earnest wish on this side of the House to be as orderly as we can and thereby do something to repair the omissions of our predecessors on this side of the House. I feel I am entitled to ask the Taoiseach to explain an answer he gave me in this House at Question Time in regard to this matter which completely contradicts what he has now announced.

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot allow this. That is opening up a debate. Order of Business.

Mr. Tunney

On a point of order——

The Taoiseach

On a point of order, an allegation has been made by the Leader of the Opposition and you have ruled that it should not be made, that it opens up a debate. Does that mean I am not in a position to reply to it?

An Ceann Comhairle

If I may say so, the Chair is put in an impossible position. If he rules with an iron hand, he is regarded as some sort of a bully. If he does not rule with an iron hand, he opens a door which will lead, and correctly so, to criticisms from the other side of the House that they cannot reply and then you have a debate.

Mr. Tunney

On a point of order——

The Taoiseach

I intended no criticism. On a point of information, having allowed the allegation to be made, am I to be allowed to reply to what has been said?

An Ceann Comhairle

I think it would be unreasonable to prevent the Taoiseach from replying——

Mr. Tunney

On a point of order, so far as I understand from sitting here as a Member of this House, the Taoiseach came in and made a statement. In my opinion the Taoiseach made a statement.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Tunney's point of order is based on something which is not accurate. The Chair called upon the Taoiseach to make an announcement in accordance with practice and in accordance with the information in the document handed to him.

Mr. Tunney

If the Chair will bear with me, the Official Report will show that he used the word "statement". There is a specific Standing Order——

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to withdraw that. I know it is unintentional. The Chair is absolutely certain that he was careful to use the word "announcement" because it is headed "announcement".

Mr. Tunney

I was referring to subsequent comments made by you about what happened. You will discover that the Official Report will refer to you as having used the word "statement". There is a Standing Order which governs the making of statements in the House and we should follow it.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is a difference between a statement and an announcement.

Mr. Tunney

What is the difference?

An Ceann Comhairle

The difference is that in the case of a statement the Chair may permit the leaders of the other parties to make short statements, but in the case of an announcement it is specifically stated that there shall be no other statement and no discussion or question on it.

Mr. Haughey

A Cheann Comhairle, I must make a submission to you. When I was Taoiseach I never availed of this device of an announcement. I want to remind you that when I occupied the Office of Taoiseach on every occasion I made the sort of declaration to the House which the Taoiseach has just made, the Leaders of the Opposition were entitled to say something about that statement. I have some rights in this House. I must ask you to look into this matter. If we are to have a situation where the Taoiseach comes in here unannounced and makes an announcement on which I have no right even to comment, even though I have very serious questions to ask about the statement, announcement or declaration, in fairness you must do something about that situation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is quite prepared to operate any revised Standing Orders or revised arrangements for the order of the House. When the Chair had this honour conferred on him, Deputies on all sides of the House specifically asked the Chair to ensure that there was order in the House. If the House is to be run as a sort of impromptu Question Time, in the Chair's opinion that is a recipe for chaos and bringing the House into disrepute.

Mr. Haughey

We are anxious to maintain your status and control over the House and to abide by your rulings to the best of our ability. I want to point out to you Sir, in good faith that, if the Taoiseach is prepared to avail of this device of an announcement as distinct from a statement, we will have to object very strenuously to that procedure.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to find another occasion on which to object.

The Taoiseach

On a point of order, I should like to ask whether I am not in order in saying, as I have been advised, that where the Government appoint a Minister of State or allocate duties to a Minister of State——

Mr. Haughey

The Taoiseach is going into the merits of it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair allowed Deputy Haughey to say a few words.

Mr. Haughey

You interrupted me.

An Ceann Comhairle

I did and there cannot be a discussion on this. I think I have succeeded in ruling it out of order.

The Taoiseach

On a point of order, an allegation has been made that I used a device of some kind in a way that has not been used by my predecessors. I wish, therefore, to have your ruling as to whether I have been correct in dealing with this matter of the allocation of functions by way of an announcement. Am I correct in saying that is how this matter was dealt with previously, that I am following precedent and not adopting any device?

An Ceann Comhairle

In the Chair's opinion, the information was conveyed to the House by way of announcement, and precedent going back over a long number of years specifically provides that there shall be no debate or statement on an announcement, and that is what the Chair tried to enforce. I was asked by the Leader of the Opposition if he could ask a question and the Chair felt it would be unreasonable to rule it out. However, the question turned out to be a statement and the Chair rules that the matter is over.

The Taoiseach

The course I adopted of making an announcement was the correct procedure in accordance with precedent in matters of this kind. I am glad that ruling has been made and I trust the Leader of the Opposition will now withdraw the suggestion that I adopted some device which he had never adopted. On another point, you said I could reply to the allegation made and you have not allowed me to do so. May I do so now?

An Ceann Comhairle

I think it would be better if we moved to the next business because, otherwise, we are going to get into a debate on this question which is contrary to Standing Orders and long-established precedent in the House. I rule that just because one Member of the House disobeyed the Chair and insisted on speaking, that does not open the field for a debate on it.

The Taoiseach

I accept your ruling but I regret I am not allowed to reply to the allegation made against me.

Mr. Quinn

On a point of desperation——

Dr. Woods

There is no such thing.

Mr. Quinn

Would you not agree, Sir, as someone who has the support of all sides of the House, that the exchange we have had for the last ten minutes underlines the urgency to all parties in the House of the need to reform these archaic proceedings so that a reasonable announcement can be made?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach to announce the Order of Business.