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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 10 Mar 1983

Vol. 340 No. 12

Social Welfare Bill, 1983: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I particularly ask members of the Labour Party to wait and hear some of the comments I have to make on what I believe to be an extremely important Bill involving a new development for the Labour Party supporting some of the draconian measures contained in the Bill. I said yesterday that I opposed the Bill for many reasons. I am opposed to it because the increases being given to social welfare beneficiaries are entirely inadequate. They have been substantially eroded because of the budget increases. The Minister said that the budget costs would add 3½ per cent to the cost of living. I think all of us agree that the full knock-effect will be 5 per cent. We must remember that that 5 per cent is the same figure referred to by the FUI arising from their meeting yesterday.

The inadequacy of these provisions is typical of a Government who have been described by various commentators as mean minded in the extreme. How can a Labour Minister be so mean minded as to introduce some of the draconian measures that this Bill contains, measures going far further than we would have contemplated? But then, we as a party always showed a caring humane approach to the underprivileged in our society. Our social conscience, in good times and bad, since we were elected as a party to this institution could be described as that of defenders of all those underprivileged people. I had hoped this morning that some more backbenchers of the Labour Party would have stayed here because I want to pose some questions to them. I want to know how the vast majority of that party have completely lost touch with what they used to claim to be or to have been their electors. Are they now prepared to say that they will follow rigidly a Government dominated by a strong right wing reactionary Fine Gael Party, who are deliberately determined to extract from the weakest and lowest sections of our community a payback greater than ever envisaged by those who voted for either party in the election?

I suggest this is the greatest con-job ever perpetrated on the Irish people emanating from the discussions that took place between the Tánaiste and leader of the Labour Party and the present Taoiseach. The Labour Party for a long time claimed to have been the flagbearers of the underprivileged, and they must now ask themselves are they prepared to surrender their last bit of credibility or respectability in the eyes of that group in society. I remember Noel Browne speaking from those benches in June 1981 — he occupied an Independent bench — during the installation of the present Taoiseach and the Government of which you, Sir, were then a member. He spoke about the way the Fine Gael Party had absorbed all the various parties in coalitions since 1948. He listed them. Many of us younger Deputies had forgotten even the names.

Speaking of the once proud Labour Party, he pointed at the diminishing number on the Labour benches. By how much more will those benches diminish if that party decide to go through to vote for draconian measures more severe and inhuman than would ever be contemplated by this party or any Government of which I would be a member? Have they lost the feeling for the people that once was so typical of that party? The increases are completely inadequate and the budget strategy is so wrong that the present figure of 188,000 unemployed will escalate this year to well over 200,000 because the Minister has taken a figure of 193,000 as an average unemployment figure for the year. Never has a more defeatist approach been adopted by any Government.

Are the Labour Party aware that the 40 per cent of reckonable earnings for pay-related benefit — a fund to which workers are contributing — is being reduced in the first instance to 25 per cent and thereafter to 20 per cent and that, in addition to that, they will have to be three and a half weeks unemployed before they get a shilling. I too condemn the dole spongers as the Minister, Deputy Desmond, called them according to an evening paper last week. I condemn those who abuse the system but this measure does not get at the abuses of the system. We must weed out the abusers and Deputy Michael Woods had made tremendous progress in that respect. Deputy O'Hanlon spelt out clearly that we are opposed to abuses of the system and we recognise the need for control of the pay-related benefit payments but we never envisaged and never would have contemplated the extent to which the Labour Party in Government have gone. Are the Labour Party backbenchers aware that it goes from 40 to 25 per cent and thereafter to 20 per cent? Are they aware that an unemployed person with four or five children has to wait three and a half weeks before he gets a shilling? That is an innovation by Deputy Barry Desmond, Minister for Health and Social Welfare. What a proud honour for him to bear. I hope the Labour Party can satisfy their consciences that they are doing the right thing.

There was no increase in children's allowance. We remember the crocodile tears shed by the present Minister and others when they were on these benches because they said Fianna Fáil had not done enough. We remember the way poverty was used, an organisation was used and individuals, religious and others who, I have no doubt have good social consciences, allowed themselves to be used merely to promote a conscience in Fine Gael and Labour, a conscience that never existed and was merely for political expediency. This measure creates more poverty and the person now losing his job has to face a bleaker future than before. Job loss is traumatic for anybody. The vast majority of those on the live register want work. It is good for their morale, for their physical and mental wellbeing. Now the compensation they receive is being hacked away. The family income supplement is an innovation. The kind of money being provided is of no use in this area and no smokescreen will cloud the issue for the ordinary people. No increases are being given in social welfare.

The Government have taken the children's allowance from apprentices. I want to refute the allegation that this decision was taken by our Government. No such decision was taken by any member of a Government of which I was a member. I want to know that happens if the apprentice becomes unemployed. The eldest boy in a family may get an apprenticeship. The cost of petrol or bus fares should be considered. Is the children's allowance restored if the apprentice becomes unemployed?

The decision on apprentices was taken by your Government. I will give the Deputy the exact date.

It was not taken by my Government. I refute that. I appreciate the Minister's difficulty. He is carrying the good old traditional Fine Gael reactionary package into this House. He is basically a very decent man but he is facing ——

You took the decision on 22 October.

—— a revolt within his own party because of the acquiescence of himself and his colleagues in Government in the draconian measures being introduced.

Poverty was used by the parties opposite and individuals with good social consciences and with a commitment to community welfare and development were sent out to the front line. They believed that here were people who would do something positive if they ever reached Government. I hope these people realise it was all in the interest of political expediency. Only one party have shown a proper social conscience about the poor and underprivileged in our society.

I agree that steps had to be taken, but steps of this magnitude will turn out to be the straw that breaks the camel's back, and drive people to a stage of frustration and disillusionment never before reached in this country. The House knows the dangers which will arise from such frustration and disillusionment, particularly in the case of young people. In the Minister's absence yesterday I asked what thought had been given to the provision in relation to the three day week. I support the proposal to control the abuses which are rampant in the short working week situation. The Minister said the previous Government had similar proposals to restrict the benefits available to short-time workers and intended to bring them in from January 1983. We had proposals, but not similar proposals. No final decision had been taken on the type of proposal.

That is not accurate.

The Minister is embarrassed and annoyed. You will have an opportunity to answer what I am saying.

The Deputy should address the Chair.

It is difficult when one is interrupted by an embarrassed Minister.

It may be hard, but it is necessary.

It is difficult.

It is not impossible.

I accept that.

The Deputy adopted a Government memorandum on it.

I agree with the overall concept, but let us take a docker working a one-day week. Will he now have to substitute four days social welfare benefit for five? That should have been researched. It is of major concern to many trade union people. The divide between the Labour Party and the trade union movement is becoming more apparent as the hours go by.

Crocodile tears were shed about poverty. These measures will introduce a new element of poverty among people genuinely seeking employment, the vast majority of those on the live register. I am sure the Minister has seen the survey carried out by the Manpower Consultative Committee on Unemployment which suggested that our system is weighted too generously in favour of unemployment at the early stages and not generously enough towards the later stages. In other words, the slope is too steep and creates tremendous hardship as time goes on.

The improvements will not be implemented until 1 July although, in a typical Coalition cosmetic exercise on budget day, we were told they would be implemented at the end of June. This is three months later than was the case in recent times. Our Government brought inflation down from 24 per cent to 12 per cent and now I presume the mid-May figure will be in the region of 16 per cent to 17 per cent. Deputy Skelly will have an opportunity to explain to the House his support for these measures. I am sure he is looking forward to seeing the pay packets of all workers from 5 April onwards. These will be very interesting pay packets. I wonder will the Labour Party continue to support these measures.

We are told a levy of 1 per cent on all incomes will be collected from the first week in April. One would have thought that might have been included in this legislation, but it is not. Nobody knows how it will be collected. On budget day the Minister for Finance was reluctant to tell us how it will be collected. I have a question on the Order Paper, and I hope it will be reached today, asking what amount was collected from the farming sector, the self-employed and other sectors in our economy, by way of the Youth Employment Levy.

I suggest that this Bill goes far beyond what is needed. It is completely inadequate in its provisions dealing with old age pensioners, widows, orphans, the sick and the unemployed. It will not maintain their standards of living. There will be a sharp fall in living standards for all those people in our society. The draconian provisions dealing with pay related contributions are unbelievable and unacceptable. The Labour Party will learn that shortly. It is hard to understand Labour Party thinking on the decision not to increase children's allowances this year, and to withdraw apprentices from the scheme.

It is too late for smoke screens. I suppose we must admire a politician who tries to deflect attention from a growing revolt in his own party, and I suppose we must admire a politician who sees the abortion issue as a device to deflect attention from a banner headline "Desmond cracks down on dole spongers". I say that with no disrespect to the Minister. We all support him in any cracking down he does on these spongers, but there is not a whit of evidence that this measure cracks down on those spongers.

We should not have too much repetition. The Chair seems to have heard that quite frequently yesterday and today.

I can appreciate why he was trying to deflect attention from this extreme measure. It will not solve the problem of the abuses which exist in our social welfare system. People who are abusing our social welfare system are responsible for penalising a young person paying a mortgage. The Bill does not solve that problem, because any person who is abusing the system can continue to do so. Admittedly he or she will be getting a little less, but it will be more than a genuine person who is not abusing the system gets.

I think the Order of Business today indicated that this Bill will not be taken until 22 March if Second Stage has not concluded today. The Minister has the opportunity between now and Committee Stage to consider again some of the extreme measures. I appreciate there is need for some of the controls. We had taken certain decisions in principle but we had not gone to the extent proposed by this Minister. One of the most serious aspects is that the waiting period of 12 days has been extended to 18 days in respect of pay-related benefit. In this case we are not talking about the dodgers and the spongers but of the person genuinely out of work for three or four weeks, who has a wife and family and who has to pay a mortgage. He will not get any pay-related benefit until he is 18 days out of work — almost four weeks. That will be a most harsh imposition and I appeal to the Minister to consider the matter. He must meet some of the Members of his own party who are creating problems for himself and for his Government and know their views.

Within reason we will accept proposals of a more human, concerned and caring nature than are included in the Bill. I look forward to discussing this matter on Committee Stage. I appeal to the Minister to make the necessary changes now. Otherwise, even though the Bill may get through Second Stage — and there must be some reservations about that now — Committee Stage will be a long and difficult process.

I listened with interest to the last two speakers. There was quite a contrast between them: Deputy Yates in his idealism towards the end of his speech putting in a plug for the Enniscorthy employment exchange. I wonder if this Minister or any Minister studies these debates? Do they take from the budget debates or the debate on this Bill any of the suggestions made by Deputies? They have many civil servants hovering around them who could summarise the debates and draw them to the attention of the Minister concerned, but I doubt if that happens.

It was interesting to see Deputy Fitzgerald donning the mantle of concern and care for the underprivileged. It did not fit him very well. The plunder that Fianna Fáil wreaked on this country from 1977 to 1981 is the main cause for the need to introduce measures such as the recent budget and of ensuring that this Government were not able to be as generous as they would like to be. When we think of the mismanagement of the country during the years it is almost disgusting to listen to this kind of rhetoric from the far side of the House about the poor and underprivileged and how little we are giving them, when we realise that Fianna Fáil squandered the money that was there and left nothing. Had Fianna Fáil managed the country properly there would be plenty of money available for the underprivileged section. Deputy Fitzgerald mentioned crocodile tears on several occasions but they are being shed on the far side of the House.

In The Development of the Modern State by Gianfranco Poggi, he states the following:

... the institutional apparatus of the state ... has serious difficulties with a number of threatening problems ... The so-called "welfare system" of various states appears both unable to remedy any but the most extreme forms of economic and social deprivation and incapable of effectively reducing the range of wider socio-economic inequalities.

Will the Deputy please give the exact reference?

I am quoting from page 145 of The Development of the Modern State.

Moreover, its direct and administrative costs place an increasingly burdensome fiscal strain on the population and the productive system.

Drastic and repeated failures of statemanship and of political judgment, as well as glaring "scandals" and "affairs", reveal that at the very top of some states the intellectual and moral qualities of political leadership are demoralisingly low.

The state's law enforcement apparatus proves increasingly incapable of guaranteeing the citizens' security in public places and in their homes, the wholesomeness and amenity of their physical environment, and the prevention and repression of large scale depredations of the public both as consumers and as tax-payers by business firms.

Generally, the administrative apparatus of most states, though absorbing an increasing share of the national product, displays a decreasing capacity for effective societal management.

Most importantly, the state machinery for monitoring, supporting and steering the national economy proves inadequate to its tasks time and again. By the mid-1970s in most Western countries, the Keynesian and post-Keynesian apparatus of economic policy is in disarray in the face of a baffling combination of stubborn inflationary and recessionary trends.

A successful combination of economic and social policies will achieve for Ireland full employment and the best social security system we can afford as a nation. In the 1970s the setback to economic growth brought these two great goals into apparent conflict. In the 1980s it is essential for our political and economic systems to re-establish our conviction that economic and social progress are part of the same process in liberal societies. Most public activities have both a social and economic aspect. For example, raising taxes may affect not only incentives to work, save and invest but the distribution of income as well. Day-care facilities for children so that parents can go out to work not only affect the labour supply but also have significant effects on family life. Thus, the social and economic aspects are inextricably intertwined. The challenge is to co-ordinate public policies to achieve in the most effective way what society wants without letting the ultimate social objective escape through short-sightedness and lack of effectiveness.

The real social progress we can achieve is limited by economic needs. The first constraint implies a trade off between the short and long term and between this generation and the next. In economic terms this means striking the right balance between consuming today and investing in the future. The example I gave earlier of the performance between 1977 and 1981 plays havoc with this theory.

There are many side effects of our social policies. The complexity of some of the financial provisions now in force affect social and economic life well beyond our intentions. Taxes on wages to finance social security increase labour costs. They also alter the pattern of costs as between firms and industry and as between labour and other factors of production. By doing so they influence the allocation of resources and patterns of production and consumption. Some side effects may be undesirable from the point of view of economic efficiency. We need to respond to changing aspirations. We must be rigorous about our essential objections and limitations. We must redesign our social policy systems so that we respond efficiently to new social needs.

We have a primary function to ensure the minimum level of protection against social risks for our citizens. The definition of an adequate minimum level is open for discussion. Political decisions on this level are influenced by growth and affluence. Collective claims against the budget have gradually covered the whole spectrum of life from birth and child rearing to education, jobs, income protection and retirement and death. Such claims are familiar to all groups in society — farmers, the young, trade unions, women at work and those who are not, enterprises big and small. Whenever a group or interest is in jeopardy they call on the Government to step in and help them. Providing cover over and above those who are in need has, in most countries, unnecessarily added to the cost and reduced distributive effects.

The protection of individuals in recent decades is an historical social achievement but it must not be placed in jeopardy by an escalation which cannot be sustained. We must continue to build on the principle that adequate income for work is the primary basis for well-being. The State has a clear responsibility to achieve a more equitable distribution of income through the fiscal system.

The State must remain as the main guarantor against social risks such as unemployment, ill health, old age and disability. In recent years the term "quality of life" was a goal to be achieved. The social indicators refer to the relatively low rates of economic growth and high unemployment. They have led to a growing awareness of the social deprivation of specific groups in society which need special programmes if they are to break out of the viscious circle of multiple disadvantage. We can think of widows, the aged and large pockets of working class areas which are affected in this way. The State can exhort, regulate and give contracts to private bodies. They can establish guidelines and give incentives for voluntary action. In doing so they depend for success on their relationships with other agents in society, that is, employers, trade unions, voluntary bodies and individuals.

In the Report on Social Development of the EEC, 1981 at page 129 on social welfare services under the heading of “Trends within the Community” it states:

The policy of curtailing public expenditure, currently being followed by Member States in their fight against inflation and the adverse effects of the economic crisis, continues to pose severe moral problems for governments, since the drive to reduce expenditure in all fields comes at a time of ever-growing needs when increasing numbers of people — notably unemployed school-leavers, workers retiring early and former emigrants returning from their host countries — are being forced, precisely because of the poor economic situation, to fall back on social assistance. The need for more extensive social welfare provision has been underlined by certain problems such as racism and nationalism which, whilst not new, have not previously manifested themselves with such virulence. The paradox is that whilst coherent, well-coordinated welfare provision is essential in such a situation, the policy of staff cuts, (via natural wastage or the actual abolition of jobs) at present being applied in some Member States undermines the standing and effectiveness of the social services.

I would wish the needy, the poor and the underprivileged to have the best social security system we as a nation can afford. That is generally accepted but it must be compatible with our social and economic objectives. In a recent article in Business and Finance by Mr. Niall Crowley from Stokes, Kennedy, Crowley, he states:

Will the Deputy please give the date?

27 January.

By 'best', I don't just mean 'most generous' — but also 'most efficient' and 'most effective' — efficiently operated at an economic cost, and effective in that it gives the maximum benefit to those who really need help.... If we devote too much of our resources to social security, we run the risk of undermining the economy and therefore our ability to finance the very social security system which we seek to optimise.... We need to get the balance right between the resources allocated to support systems for the unemployed and those allocated to investment to create new jobs. Hence the need, particularly in the present difficult times, to seek maximum effectiveness (in terms of those in need receiving it) and to make sure that the system is not abused.... the social security package includes an insurance element, which as presently structured, goes to the beneficiary as of right.

We must give a high priority to the need to provide the maximum incentive to work, to earn, to produce, to market and sell our products and our services — as well as striving mightily to create the jobs to work at. This means, inter alia, providing whatever incentives we can afford to the people who work effectively and, equally importantly, not to create disincentives to work through a less than fully effective use of the social security system....

I am in favour of preserving as much as possible of the fabric of the social security system, including health services as well as unemployment benefit, within the context of the need to cut back on Government expenditure. These cutbacks are absolutely necessary in order to reduce the current budget deficit so as to control inflation and create an enviornment in which our products can compete with those of other countries. In that way, more jobs will be created, more people can earn, and more highly developed and more generous social security benefits can be afforded in the longer term.

If we do not cut back Government expenditure, if we do not become more competitive, then the reverse spiral will apply and we will become less and less able to afford a social security system of any real size at all and more and more people will become unemployed and will become dependent on a reducing level of social security provided by a shrinking number employed. This is a prospect which we would all abhor and which would do immeasurable damage to our people, to their morale, to their very lives and health. Therefore, I have always supported developing our social security benefits as fast as we can, but hand in hand with the development of our economic wealth as a country.

We must try to retain as much as possible of the structure of the social services (including health as well as education and other services) in a time of retrenchment and recession.... it is much more desirable to minimise the impact on the disadvantaged sector of society by giving them priority. This can only be achieved by charging for the health and the services to those who can afford to pay — and by running them more efficiently.... I do not want to cut social security services or benefits. But I do want the country to cut its cloth according to its measure, so that we can recover from our economic malaise, and be able to afford better and more highly developed social services in the future.... we must make sure that it is those in need who benefit and not others. We must avoid disincentives to work and we must reduce short-term social security benefits liable to taxation.... It is the disincentive to work and the consequent cost which unemployment is to the taxpayer as well as the adverse impact on the economy as unemployment increases which is important.

The addition of £31 million provided by the Minister for the increased level of enemployment estimated by the previous Government at 177,000 people and adjusted by the Government to 193,000 people is a welcome addition. The Minister said he would have liked to do a lot more but the money is not there to do it. In order to compensate for the reductions, it is necessary to boost the economy. The Minister is giving a 12 per cent increase in the long term and a 10 per cent increase in the short term. He mentioned in his speech that a 1 per cent increase costs £14½ million. It is accepted that economic growth and moderate inflation allows social welfare services to expand. Now that we have high inflation and practically no growth, social welfare services are under threat. It is essential that we put our heads together and try to devise incentive schemes to boost the economy. For example, we could reduce the amount of corporation profits tax in the construction industry from 50 per cent to 10 per cent as has been done in the manufacturing industry. This would boost the housing industry and would provide jobs and instil further confidence in the economy.

It is necessary to strike a balance between the increasing social welfare payments from a smaller kitty by boosting employment at every opportunity and by encouraging business companies and the private sector. We should not be afraid to do that because there is a general lack of confidence in the business sector at present. Confidence could be restored by reducing taxation and providing incentives, but not merely by a witch-hunt and increasing taxation on a few to transfer to the social welfare sector. That will not solve the problem but will lead to further problems unless, parallel to getting taxes which are owed and providing the best possible services to the underprivileged, we encourage businesses to work harder and to take more risks. We can do that by creating a climate of confidence which is not there at present. We should recognise that we are a mixed economy. The Government have failed to do this. Of course they are in office a very short time and have had to spend a couple of months preparing the budget. There have been some negative approaches but I am hopeful that the Government will soon adopt a more positive approach to the economy.

The Government have the support of people generally because they recognise the plight we are in and the harsh measures it was necessary to take. The Government must now restore confidence by encouraging people to work harder for greater rewards. We need a "let it rip" approach. We must provide incentives which are already given to foreign companies operating here.

I feel very strongly about the plight of widows. They have a very difficult time because, very often, the wife stays at home and is out of touch with financial affairs because her husband looks after these. Usually, if a couple have been married for a long time a widow is not geared to looking after financial affairs. At the moment a non-contributory widow's pension is £33.80 per week. This was increased by £4.05 so a widow with two dependent children gets £58.55 per week. That is an increase of £7.40. A widow with two children will have £58.55 a week if she remains at home with her children. The possibility is that she must look after her children or she may not be able to get a job because of certain circumstances. She may have been out of work so long that it is impossible for her to take up a job again. I know of one case where a widow with six children, the eldest 15 years of age, was unable to take a job for many reasons. She had to manage on the pittance she got from the State. Hers was a very special case.

Again you may have the widow of a businessman, a man who was running a company. While he was alive the family may have had a very good standard of living. If he dies that family may be left with nothing. I could give examples where affairs were very complicated and the widow was unable to unravel them. She was taken advantage of by others and she lost everything. In another case a man involved in the building industry died of a heart attack. The widow got in a manager to run the company. He set up a second company and he hived off all the work from the first company to the second. Eventually the first company inevitably went bankrupt. Not only did the widow find herself penniless but she actually owed money. The allowances for widows should be increased even at some cost to the State. There are ways in which this could be done. We should be much more generous to these people than we have been in the past. I do not know how they survive and rear families. The strain must be absolutely intolerable.

With regard to the fuel scheme it can sometimes be very difficult for those who apply for it. The processing of applications is so slow that very often families go through the whole winter without getting a decision on their applications. I trust the Minister will do something to improve the situation.

I do not think the Bill will cushion people against rising costs because of the economic climate. I listened very carefully to Deputy Gene Fitzgerald. I find the attitude adopted on the Fianna Fáil benches very hypocritical because they are mainly responsible for our present economic situation. They should hang their heads in shame remembering the situation they created over the last five years. I doubt if people will excuse them for it. It is hypocritical of Fianna Fáil Deputies to come in here now and point the finger at this side of the House in an endeavour to put the blame for our present situation on the budget introduced by this Government. It is they who created the existing situation. It is they who are responsible for the fact that the Government cannot give more to the less well-off and the underprivileged no matter how anxious they are to do so. Surely the Opposition could be constructive in their criticism. Their attitude is quite unacceptable remembering what happened during the last five years.

The Minister says the State's ability is limited because of the critical position of our public finances. But why should the less fortunate suffer? We must have a national plan designed to tackle the whole economy. The Government have made an excellent start with the budget. We must go ahead now and help the less fortunate in a more positive way. It is very important to strike a balance. So far I have not seen an effort being made towards striking a balance. I earnestly ask the Government to do this as quickly as possible because a lack of balance is restricting growth. The Minister says hopefully he may be able to give better increases next year. That is no consolation to those who will have to meet increasing costs this year. We must take positive measures to remedy the present situation. At the moment we seem to be burying our talents. We know what happened to the man in the parable who did that. The chains must be removed from the private sector so that we can get on with boosting the economy. Comparisons with the UK are not effective because the cost of living there is lower than it is here.

I welcome the change in regard to short-term workers. This was an area of complaint in my constituency. People resented the fact that those who were not working could take home as much, or more, than those who were working. It gave rise to a good deal of dissatisfaction. Those on the three-day week were doing all kinds of nixers. What the Minister proposes now should remove this unsatisfactory situation. It should also help small businesses to survive. I understand from the Minister's speech that on short-term pay-related benefit a person can take home 98 per cent of the normal take-home pay but that will be reduced to 88 per cent from June.

I must disagree with the Minister's contention that employers deliberately hold off for as long as possible remittances of PAYE and PRSI. I agree that to do such is not acceptable, but the Minister says that existing legislation in this area should be applied vigorously and, if necessary, strengthened. In the majority of cases employers do not do this and I believe that there is a great deal of misunderstanding about the total area of business and how this happens. Business is an on-going process and a simplified view is being taken here which is typical of people, many of them in the present Government, who have no experience in the field of running a business particularly in a recessionary situation. The Minister rightly makes allowances for social welfare recipients but he seems to turn the screw unnecessarily on the business sector. People should not evade tax. They should pay their taxes. I agree that companies should be run properly and PAYE and PRSI remittances should be passed over immediately. On the other hand the business might say that the answer is very simple, that the Government can collect the taxes themsleves and go back to the old Schedule D or whatever it was and relieve the employer of this burden and then he would not have to bother with it at all. At the moment it is an intolerable burden on businesses which they neither ask for nor want and they would love to be relieved of it. The running of a business is a very complicated affair not lightened by VAT, PAYE, PRSI and other types of forms, and the Revenue Commissioners hounding the businessman to compel him to do a very complicated job successfully. If he does not do it he must face very severe penalties. No concessions are available to businesses for doing this job and they must employ many extra people to do it. Many examples can be given in this area and any employer would be pleased to tell the Government or the Minister about the complications.

Considering some of the statements that have been attributed to the Minister recently, I would respectfully suggest that he inform himself on these matters. I can give an example in my constituency of a company, employing 200 people, which has made profits for the last eight or ten years. Recently that company, in the apparel industry, owed about £240,000 in PAYE and PRSI payments and under pressure bought this spring's stocks in order to keep going. They offered the Revenue Commissioners post-dated cheques over a 12-month period plus the balance of the money on a 12-month period to pay the PAYE and PRSI. This was refused. The Minister's attitude in his speech and in the last couple of weeks if he has been quoted correctly suggests that the company should have paid over that money immediately in total, not in the form of stocks, and closed down. Then 200 people would be unemployed.

Why did they not deduct it and pay it over? All they had to do was stop deducting it or if they did deduct it they should have paid it over.

If they had 200 people unemployed it would cost the Government £1.5 million to pay them for the year and then my colleague, Deputy Mac Giolla, might be up here on an Adjournment Debate asking the Government to intervene to reopen that company and save 200 jobs.

The only point I am making is that this is a very complicated issue and the company did not deliberately try to defraud the Revenue Commissioners. If they had put in a request to Fóir Teoranta or the IDA for help in this area they would not have had time in which to act. With respect to Deputy Mac Giolla, I do not think that he understands fully the complications of this. I have suggested in the past to companies, particularly in relation to PAYE and PRSI, that the amounts be remitted monthly and that at the time they are paying out wages they should also draw a cheque payable to the Revenue Commissioners each week, and every four weeks send the cheques to the Revenue Commissioners so that the firm will not really have that money themselves. The collection of taxes is a tremendous burden on companies.

If the Government revert to the Schedule D situation or let employees pay over their own taxes, PAYE and PRSI, they would not be owed only £1,100 million or whatever the figure is now. They would be owed £ billions and they would have an enormous job to collect it. They would be obliged to employ another couple of thousand inspectors to go after it. Their approach to this is very bald-headed and unreasonable. The Minister said that £25 million is owed from 11,000 employers. A calculation on that will reveal that an average amount of £2,273 is owed by each employer. He said also that instalment arrangements exist and liquidation proceedings have been taken in some of these cases so it is quite likely that the amount owed is smaller than stated. Taken out of context that amount of money seems huge but if you had 11,000 employers on Schedule D the amount owed would be equal to that if not a great deal more.

What about the huge amount owed to these businesses in debts? Will the Government help them collect that or will they offset it? We must decide either that profit is a dirty word or that we do not want a mixed economy. If we decide that we want a mixed economy and laissez faire is acceptable, then we should give incentives to our people to get out and do things. The Irishmen and Irishwomen like to get the bit between their teeth, they like to make things work. They have been doing that all over the world for decades. Let them do it in their own country for a change.

The Minister said:

It is argued in some instances that the collection system is too inflexible and does not make sufficient allowance for trading conditions in individual cases. I think this line of reasoning is too facile.

The fact that so many firms have gone into liquidation leaving behind large commitments for PAYE/PRSI without assets to meet them is clear proof in itself that abuse of one system will not solve the problems of another system where the difficulties are of a fundamental nature.

I gave the example of the firm employing 200 employees. The Minister's reasoning is too simplistic. In the Revenue Commissioners and other civil service Departments there are not many people with experience in running a business. They make the rules and regulations for areas about which they know nothing.

We accept the family income supplement of £5 million and look forward to the proposals for new legislation in this area that the Minister hopes to bring in. The budget improvements in that area allow for £160 million in a full year, with the health allowance of £6 million. This is a total of pre-budget expenditure of £780 million. I do not doubt the Minister's and the Government's commitment to do their best for those in need, but submit that the Government will do that best by boosting the ecoomy.

I commence with a reference to Deputy Skelly's opening remarks about Fianna Fáil being the party who caused all these problems and who have not been worried about the working class, the poor and the downtrodden of our society. In the history of the State since Fianna Fáil took office — and I am sure he will have to agree — Fianna Fáil are, and always have been, the party looking after the working class and the working members of our society.

The party did not do that for the last five years.

If the Deputy looks at the last budgets brought in by Fianna Fáil he will see that a 25 per cent increase was given to old age pensioners and the worst off members of our society. It shocked me to hear him say that employers should not pay over PAYE and PRSI.

I did not say that.

Deputy Ahern, without interruption.

I am open to correction.

I said that they should pay it.

Fair enough. I took the Deputy up wrongly.

There are excuses for doing so.

A well-known member of the Fine Gael Party advocated not paying over PRSI and PAYE and that man is laughing up his sleeve at the rest of us who are paying.

On the fateful day of 9 February the Tánaiste revealed the true colours of the present Government. He spelt out clearly, not in the document read out to the nation, but in the pink document which contained all the nitty-gritty parts of the budget, the real ethos of the Fine Gael Party. It can be summed up in the phrase "Balance the budget and do not count the bodies". When our people, or any people for that matter, accept a purely materialistic point of view, it is then that the soul of the country is lost. I fear that that is now happening in this country. The Minister for Finance has said that the country is in the midst of a severe recession and I agree with him. The facts bear that out. However, in taking corrective action to rectify the position we should not throw out the baby with the bath water. In this case the child represents the poor members of our society.

Unemployment is rife in every town and village. In my own constituency of Cork East over the last couple of months IMP closed down, East Cork Foods are about to close down, Youghal Carpets are finished, in Verolme Dockyard 400 will be dismissed in a month or so and it is only a matter of time before the Government pull the plug in the case of Irish Steel also. We will not have to worry about any further redundancies, because there will be no people to be made redundant.

What have the pre-election saviours of the country done to halt the lengthening of the dole queues? The answer, quite simply, is that they have done nothing. They have gone ahead with their inflationary budget——

The Deputy should remember that he is speaking on a Social Welfare Bill and not on the budget.

This is leading into the Social Welfare Bill and is of great significance.

Would the Deputy please confine his contribution to the Social Welfare Bill?

This inflationary budget has helped to speed up and increase the numbers on the dole. This has a direct connection with the Social Welfare Bill. Over the last couple of weeks I have looked at the social welfare contributions in the budget and now under the Social Welfare Bill and have come to the conclusion that this could be entitled the Unsocial Welfare Bill. I can well understand why two Labour Party Deputies have expressed doubts about supporting that Bill. I can only assume that the rest of the Labour Party will follow their former Leader and join the ranks of Fine Gael. I cannot understand how a socialist party could support a Bill containing such draconian measures and with so insignificant an increase in social welfare benefits. These are an insult to the Labour Party supporters who will not be able to defend and support such a Bill.

The provisions of this Bill have not as yet really hit the ordinary people who depend on social welfare. Since VAT increased at the beginning of March they are beginning to feel the effects. The social welfare increases will not come into effect until the end of June, but in most cases the beginning of July, in reality. These increases range from 10 to 12 per cent and the cost of living will rise by 3½, 4 or 4½ per cent. There will be a real reduction in the standard of living. I do not disagree with a decrease in the standard of living because in these times it is necessary, as we cannot live beyond our means. There are, however, members of our society who should have got greater increases, to buttress them against the excessive increase in the cost of living, those on long-term social welfare benefit and those mentioned by Deputy Skelly — widows. He gave examples of widows of businessmen and I know of similar cases, but I also know widows of ordinary working men who are in dire straits. These are the people who should be getting increased allowances, much more than the 12 per cent given in the budget.

The old age pensioners, too, should have got bigger increases, at least 16 per cent or 17 per cent. The Government could have stretched their finances that far. I am very disappointed that the Minister, a member of the socialist party, agreed to such a farcical increase for these long term social welfare recipients.

For the first time that I can remember children's allowances were not increased. Is this an attempt to reduce the size of the family, as is the case in China where children's allowances are given for one or two children and if there are more children the allowances are reduced? I wonder if the Government will reduce the children's allowances next year, if they are still in power. Paying children's allowances for all children is not a very good system because many people in receipt of those allowances do not need the money. It is well known that many people receive their children's allowances every month, put it in a bank and let the money pile up. This whole area should be looked at and perhaps a means test could be introduced, but I do not know if that would be too costly. If the means test were introduced the money saved could be given to widows, old age pensioners and families in need.

I noticed £5 million had been allocated to the family income supplement scheme for low income families in the active labour force. I have not heard any further details of that scheme, and in my view the Government are using this to try to convince the people that they are on their side but I believe that, in the long term, this scheme will be shelved. I would like to hear more details of it so that we could make worthwhile comments.

When considering what I would say on this Bill I wanted to comment on each section, but having considered the speeches made on Dáil reform I decided that as everything worth while had already been said, I would not take up the time of the House by repeating them.

The provisions of this Bill fall on the heads of the present Government, and the protestations that Fianna Fáil were going to introduce the same measures is no defence, but a sign of their moral cowardice about owning up to their own decisions.

I want to quote from the Minister's speech because I share the regrets he expressed when he said:

It is unfortunate that at a time like this, when the need for income maintenance services, particularly unemployment benefits, is greatest, the State's ability to make an adequate response is limited because of the critical position of the public finances. However, I can assure Members of the House that as soon as circumstances permit, hopefully by next year's budget, it is my firm intention to secure further real improvements in social welfare payments.

I would like to go further than the hope expressed by the Minister that we secure further improvements in social welfare payments and add real improvements in the reform of the social welfare system. I want every Deputy to recognise that we all have a responsibility in this area. If we have a social welfare system it must be administered fairly, compassionately and sensitively, and we should bring about reforms that will remove the outstanding discrimination and anomalies contained in our social welfare system since it was set up. Because of our membership of Europe not alone are we being encouraged to do this, but we are directed to do it under the directive entitled Equal Treatment in Social Security, which should become national legislation by 1984.

Before I go into the main discriminations and reforms needed in that area, which I hope to see introduced before the next budget, I suggest that we should look seriously at our attitudes towards social welfare recipients. Probably because of a lack of industrialised history and tradition, our social welfare system was set up almost on a charity basis, like a badly worked patchwork quilt. Bits and pieces were added to our social welfare system as we went on, depending on the urgency of the problems experienced by different groups. This was particularly so in the last decade when we were lobbying for our most vulnerable and discriminated against sections of the community, women and children.

Many of the reforms which were introduced, inadequate as they are, were the result of lobbying by women's groups for such people as prisoners' wives, unmarried mothers, single women working in the home and, above all, women working in the home who have still not been fully recognised and given recognition for the work they are doing. I will come to that in a few minutes, because I want to refer to a comment made by Deputy M. Ahern. He suggested that the area of children's allowances should be looked at, but I would remind the House that the only value put on the work of women who work in the home is in the form of children's allowances, and then only up to the age of 16 years for each child. That is the only independent economic value that is put on the work of child rearing.

I would remind Deputy Ahern that women in what are considered affluent areas can be denied adequate housekeeping money just as seriously as women in working-class areas or areas of high unemployment suffer in this respect. However, what I am trying to establish is the principle that caring for children or for other relatives in the home will have to be recognised and acknowledged by way of a reformed social welfare system. Dental and optical treatment is still not available free to women working in the home. Fianna Fáil went to the expense and trouble of having a survey carried out in this respect but it only proved what every woman knew already, that was, that married women have the worst teeth of any group in the population, not only in relation to Ireland but in relation to Europe as a whole.

Another group of women who work in the home and who not only are not recognised but are ignored totally in so far as social welfare is concerned are single women trying to combine a career with caring for elderly relatives, or in extreme cases, sacrificing their careers to care for those relatives and, thereby, losing their economic independence. If on the basis of a means test the elderly relative is deemed to be so under privileged as not to have enough money to exist, a subscribed relative's allowance is paid to that invalid but nothing is paid to the woman who has given up her career or her hopes of fulfilling a lifetime ambition to look after the aged person. This is happening at a time when we all know that both in human and economic terms we should be relying on community-based health care. The group of women I am talking about give that sort of care and thereby not only prevent the old people concerned from being put into institutions but save the State a large amount of money.

There has been reference to the black economy. Among the victims of the black economy are women who work part-time. Their hours of work are such as to prevent them from being eligible for social welfare. As the great majority of people who work part-time are women, this is a huge discrimination and, ironically, it is a tremendous loss to the State in terms of revenue. The women concerned are often given the impression that their job is so worthless that they are better off not paying tax. These people wish to be recognised as fully professional workers who are elibigle for social welfare, and they are more than willing to pay their fair share of tax.

I regret very much the abolition of the maternity grant. While we all welcome the fact that women working outside the home qualify for maternity allowance, this applies only to women who have paid their insurance contributions. One is often asked what recognition is given to women working in the home and who, consequently, do not have the opportunity of availing of social welfare. In any reform of this aspect of the social welfare code we should endeavour to adopt the procedure followed in all the other EEC countries in relation to the granting of maternity leave. Perhaps some of the male Members will be shocked to hear me say this, but in terms of family relationships it is a concept that we should encourage. We should give men every opportunity of fulfilling their role as parents, and one way of doing this is to devise a system within the social welfare code which would allow them to claim benefit while on paternity leave. In other countries it has been found that apart from the practical help given by fathers in looking after children during a wife's confinement, this also strengthens the bond between father and children.

Our social welfare system was set up on a piecemeal basis and with a large amount of bureaucracy. It has many anomalies, so in order to deal properly with it huge reform is needed. I appreciate the many complexities involved in setting up any scheme, but we must always allow for the possibility of loopholes that lead to abuse and which bring the whole area in question into disrepute. However, removing from the social welfare code some of the reward that should be available for people who genuinely qualify for benefit is not the answer.

Reform of the social welfare code must not be considered in isolation from the rest of the fabric of society. Many of the problems we have created for ourselves, not only within the social welfare system but within the economy also, have resulted from our failure to have social planning in conjunction with the economic planning we had in the late fifties and in the sixties and which was speeded up in the seventies. Looking back on the various White Papers and Green Papers and the magnificent plans we had for our country we find, singularly, that what was missing was the type of social planning that must accompany any sort of economic planning. The lack of integration in this respect has led not only to the wrong attitude being adopted in relation to social welfare recipients but to an overlapping and to a maladministration of the system.

In advocating the extension of social welfare to cover certain areas that are not covered now, I would argue also that, done properly, this would go a long way towards meeting some of the needs created by our very high rate of unemployment. We are all aware that there are certain people who are anxious to set up their own business or be trained to become more employable but do not have the opportunity to do so because if they did the unemployment benefit or assistance on which they are only managing to survive would be stopped. Not alone is there no encouragement to go for further training or to set up one's own business but there is such an economic disincentive that people could not survive if they attempted to do those things.

Deputy Shatter suggested that there should be some flexibility with regard to those who are anxious to set up their own business, and I have another suggestion to put to the Minister. We are aware that, as we move abruptly and violently out of traditional employment here, one of the great needs of our people is training for other employment on jobs that are not traditional. However, all retraining programmes are not run by AnCO. Therefore, one cannot argue that the AnCO allowance will cover such programmes. The Minister should consider having consultations with the VECs because they have shown themselves to be very flexible with regard to training programmes and adult education courses as the need arises. It is possible that VECs could organise projects under which people would be committed to continue with further education or training without having their social welfare payments stopped until such time as they were employable again. Unless we change all our schemes and projects, whether they be educational, social welfare, or employment, we will not survive or create the jobs we desperately need.

I have often heard that we should not slavishly follow Britain but I am willing to follow any of their models that prove successful. I have been informed that schemes of further education have been implemented there with a flexibility to allow the payment of social welfare benefits until the person becomes employable again. Taking due consideration of our national chauvinism and other matters, I believe that any scheme that proves successful elsewhere should be implemented here if feasible.

The first reaction to my next suggestion may be that it is going to be so expensive that it is not on in terms of social welfare. However, if we are to work towards creating employment for the present and the future we must explore the whole area of job-sharing and social welfare payments. It is possible that the time may come in a civilised future when men might be anxious to have shared incomes and job-sharing if the household income is sufficient to support the family unit. There is a definite and positive option for the future in regard to job-sharing, but we cannot use that system properly unless we have the help of the Government by way of the establishment of a special fund or the allocation of a percentage of PRSI to enable people to share a job and at the same time qualify for social welfare.

We should explore that possibility. We should look at a work structure that is more humane and acceptable so that we will not spend most of our day working from morning until night with a few weeks holidays annually. The future trend in our lives may be in sharing our jobs and work. That would mean that a husband and wife would get the opportunity of working inside and outside the home and both of them would have the satisfaction of using their talents to the full. If we do not adopt such a scheme we will condemn future generations to a situation where they may never work outside the home. It is possible that they may never get an opportunity to use their skills or potential. The Government, with the constructive support of the House, should spend the next three years not just trying to survive economically but bringing forward a social plan that will not only remove discriminations, differences and inequalities but will also ensure that with an improved economy we will have a social programme that will make our society more fair and equitable. We cannot talk about improving our economy unless we look at all areas of social welfare that must be changed and hopefully that will be done before the next budget.

I should now like to descend from my optimistic visions of the future to the more grim realities of the present. In the course of his speech the Minister dealt with the financing of supplementary welfare allowances. All Members, particularly those who are members of local authorities or subsidiary bodies, will welcome the formalising of the funding for supplementary welfare allowance payments. Unfortunately, as more and more people fall further into poverty traps and unemployment rises, there is a greater need for supplementary welfare allowances. I share the agony of the Government that this type of payment will have to be increased because of our bad economic situation. Having said that, we should look at the rules governing supplementary welfare allowances. I have been told that under the rules there is a restriction on the amount a welfare officer can pay towards the rent of a person who is in desperate financial trouble. That figure is limited to £5. It must be remembered that there are many people who are in such financial trouble that they cannot pay their rent. That rule is outdated because £5 in today's terms is irrelevant where there is a high rent. Many social welfare officers share a sense of frustration in having to tell those who are on a high rent and cannot pay it that under the rules they are only entitled to £5. These are the kinds of areas we must look at and we must bring some kind of reality and practicality to these payments.

People seeking supplementary welfare payments must be dealt with sensitively because by the time they reach that stage they have been robbed of much of their human and financial independence, dignity and pride. I am not casting aspersions on social welfare officers but training is needed for all staff so that they can cope with people in the most sensitive and non-humiliating way.

Because of the way our social welfare system evolved there is still a feeling that it is a charity and there is still within the psyche of this society a feeling that if people are poor it is through their own fault and that somehow if they exerted themselves and used a little more energy they would not need to be supported. It was only ten years ago that we began to look honestly at our society and defined poverty. That was when the first conference on poverty was held in Kilkenny in 1971. Before that we had never faced up to the fact that there were poor people and that their poverty was not their own fault but resulted from many inequalities in our system which forced people into poverty traps.

As a result of that conference and as a result of the experience of Members in dealing with constituency problems, we have become more socially aware but we have still to take the greater leap of taking responsibility for all our citizens and treating them equally. We must share what we have and those who have more must redistribute that wealth. Until we face up to the inevitability of that decision we will not have any kind of healthy social welfare system. We will still treat our poor people as paupers. Staff must be trained so that they will not treat these people with so much contempt that they will not come back. We have one million poor people and rising unemployment and people through no fault of their own must rely on unemployment benefit and assistance. We have long-term social welfare recipients and we must remove discrimination against them.

Deputy Michael Ahern and Deputy Skelly spoke of one group which in women's experience seem to be the only group who are respectable enough to plead for — the widows. We have always heard of the poor widows of Ireland, how marvellous they are and the wonderful families they have raised. As the Deputies recognised, we have not done much to support and help them. In only looking at the widows we leave out the deserted wives, unmarried mothers, women looking after elderly relatives and our young unemployed. We must be equally conscious of their needs and rights and give them the same entitlement to social welfare benefits as we would wish to give the widows. The first to recognise this fact would be the widows themselves because they have been through it and know what it is about.

We know our social welfare system is inadequate and I share the concern and compassion of the Ministers involved, both of whom have dealt with many problems both as Deputies and councillors. There is no point in saying that the people who have to administer this scheme or the Government are taking pleasure in the fact that they are not able to give the rates of payment they would wish. Such a statement would do a great disservice to this House. It would be to state that this House has not the sympathy, commitment and compassion to raise social welfare payments to an adquate level. I refuse to believe anybody in this House would say so. I deplore the fact that we have allowed our economy to sink so far that we must agonise because we are not able to give more this year, realising that if everybody does not pay up in every other area we will not be able to sustain even those payments. This is a matter of serious concern. Let us finish with throwing mud at one another. I refuse to believe that any Government would not stretch themselves to their utmost to bring about the most advantageous budget and social welfare payments if we call ourselves a civilized society, much less Christian. I have great problems in coping with the word "Christian" when talking about society in Ireland.

Even with the inadequate budget this year, and hopefully with a better budget next year and in the years ahead, I make one last plea. We must inform those entitled to benefit from social welfare payments exactly what their rights are and how to go about securing them. We must let them know that what they are getting is not some form of privilege but their right as citizens. This is not being done adequately. During the debate on Dáil reform Members on all sides complained that they had not time to engage in discussion on legislation because they were dealing with social welfare problems for people who, if properly informed, could solve them. We must have many more citizens advice bureaux. Even within existing employment exchanges we should have at least one desk manned by a skilled person to whom a person can turn if he or she has a query about which form to use or if they have a query about whether their entitlements are correct. People should realise that it is their right to get this information and that it is a denial of their rights not to have it.

I believe we have a real need, particularly as we change social welfare payments and entitlements and hopefully, next year when we will have so many changes we will certainly need it, to inform people of exactly what they are entitled to. I believe the only effective way to get across to people the changes they need to know about is by advertising. I am not talking about taking an eight inch column in the national newspapers which people can cut out and keep. Those advertisements of changes are usually written in such bureaucratic language that one would need an interpreter — even a very literate person would need this — to understand what the advertisement is about. The most effective way we can reach the people we need to reach is by television advertising. I ask that the budget for social welfare next year includes an allocation for a television advertising campaign which will simply tell people what the changes are and where to go in order to find out about them. This is where we need skilled personnel to actually answer queries and deal with the people making them without making those people feel they are nuisances.

Perhaps I seem to be asking for a lot, but I do not think we can give less than what I am asking for. I believe that in times of desperate straits people respond better. I believe that in times of desperation changes are brought about because it is only then that people realise that things cannot go on as they are and we better start reforming. I know this is what the Government are doing. We are not alone coping with the most serious financial situation the State has ever had to cope with but we are also coping with a very fast changing society as well as the bureaucracies and agencies which have grown over the years willynilly, which are not alone ineffective but extremely wasteful.

We have a desperate situation. Let us hope it will never be as bad again and that we are coming out of it. In doing so let us at least have the advantage of learning from the situation we find ourselves in, building from it and bringing about the social policies and planning that the country has never had but that its people will not survive in any kind of dignified independence unless we do it. I wish both Ministers well in the huge, challenging task they have. I promise them that at every opportunity I get to speak I shall be there urging them to do what I ask.

This Social Welfare Bill arising out of the budget has a number of factors in it. There are benefits in it which are lower than they ought to be to deal with inflation and there are cutbacks in the existing benefits. The cuts take effect in April and we are rushing this Bill through to make sure that they take place then, but the increases will not take effect until June, three months later. That is an indication of the attitude in the whole Bill.

The Minister's speech has brought it out very clearly that it is a deliberate decision by the Government to attack social welfare as an area of public spending which must be cut, that people were getting too much. There is a whole concept of a big deal developing in black economy and so forth which they had got to cut back.

I will deal with some of the issues in the budget and in the Social Welfare Bill. I intend to make some comments on the Minister's speech and some other comments. The sharpest cutbacks in the Social Welfare Bill are in relation to disability, maternity and unemployment benefits, the ill, the pregnant and the unemployed as well as those on up to £20 a week in April as a result of the changes in the pay-related benefit, although they will get some increases in June. There will be increases of £3 and £4, depending on the number of qualified dependents but they will not get sufficient to cover the cutbacks. I will give an example of a person with reckonable weekly earnings of £132 per week in the 1981-82 tax year. He was getting £40 per week. When this Bill is law the benefit he will get will be only £24 a week, a drop of £16. There will be a small increase in June of £3.15 when the benefit will go up from £31.65 to £34.80. That does not compensate for the £16 he will be losing in April.

At present the benefit is calculated on the person's gross weekly earnings in the 1981-82 tax year. The first £32 is disregarded. The ceiling is £190 per week, that is, £9,500 per annum. After a 12 day waiting period, which under this Bill is going up to 18 days, 40 per cent of this is paid for 147 days, that is 24.5 weeks, which is reduced to 13 per cent for the next 13 weeks, 25 per cent for the following 13 weeks and less than 20 per cent for the last 13 weeks. After 65 weeks of unemployment all benefit, both flat rate and pay-related runs out and the person falls back on to unemployment assistance.

That is becoming an increasing factor for the unemployed, because the latest figures show that 40 per cent of the unemployed were unemployed for over one year. That was some time ago. I would suggest that that figure has now risen to 50 per cent and that it will be a continuing percentage increase of those unemployed over a year who will now go on to unemployment assistance. All this talk about people getting more on social welfare than they earned when at work is total nonsense because it all runs out after 65 weeks. Indeed they knew that from the time they became unemployed, it was a temporary feature due to the amount of money they had already paid in by way of PRSI contributions. It has run out for most people now and is running out for more and more people as unemployment becomes a more permanent feature.

From April 1983 the ceiling for pay-related purposes will rise from £9,500 to £11,000 and the £32 per week floor will be increased to £36 per week. A feature of this is that, for contribution purposes, the ceiling will be higher, that is £13,000. This is the first time this disparity has occurred. The waiting period for pay-related benefit will rise in April from 12 to 18 days. Therefore everyone will lose a week of pay-related benefit completely at the start of their period of unemployment. And the rates of the proportion of the reckonable earnings will be cut to 25 per cent for the first 23.5 weeks, 20 per cent for the remaining 39 weeks of a person's entitlement and will be stopped altogether for people who are on short time. I shall refer to that later.

One of the features of the budget which seems to me to have a particularly anti-working class bias and which has not been noticed by many people is the change in the payment of children's allowances. It is an extraordinary move that previously these were paid to children under 16 but were extended to the age of 18 if the children were apprentices or were pursuing full-time education, apprenticeship being deemed a type of further education for children. This has now been cut. It seems that no allowance will be paid to those under 18 who are pursuing apprenticeships. But of course it will continue for those under 18 who go on to third-level education, who can afford that type of education. But there is no benefit for the children of working class parents who take up an apprenticeship as part of their educational process for jobs for the future. The children's allowance benefit is to be cut in respect of them. This constitutes an obvious swipe at working-class families, and them only, the people who are being hit continuously throughout the whole of the budget and this Bill.

People on short-term working have been picked out for special attack in this budget. From April onwards people on short-time will receive no pay-related unemployment benefit whatever. It should be remembered that people who have been on short time over the past couple of years have done so in order to avoid industries closing down, in an endeavour to keep some kind of employment going; organised workers, through their trade unions, have been entering into agreements with factories to go on short-time; in order to keep them going they have been taking cuts. Now these short timers are being savagely attacked in this Bill. They will receive a flat rate benefit now only on the basis of a five-day week where formerly they received it on the basis of a six-day week. In other words, those who were on a three day week formerly got three days flat rate benefit and now will get two days benefit only. The extraordinary twist in this is that while they will receive only two days benefit, that will be counted as two-sixths rather than two-fifths. In other words, it has changed from a six-day week, three days working, three days benefit, to a five day week, three days working, two days benefit. But the two days benefit is based on two-sixths rather than two-fifths which effects a huge reduction in their benefit in respect of the days on which they are not working.

I do not think most people understand yet what will be the full implications of this Bill on short-term workers. Incidentally the Minister in his speech pointed out that the number of short-time workers was 50 per cent higher already than had been estimated for 1983. He said the figure was estimated at 10,000 whereas it is already 15,000 and of course increasing rapidly.

The budget has perpetuated the distinction which was first made by Fianna Fáil between short-term and long-term social welfare recipients, short-term recipients being on unemployment benefit, unemployment then being something which was very temporary and short-term. Since this distinction was drawn, I think back in 1978 by Fianna Fáil, short-term recipients have been receiving lower increases on the assumption that they would not be dependent on social welfare for very long. That day has gone, the temporary nature of unemployment is just a joke now. The latest figures show that there are 40 per cent, it is probably now 50 per cent, over a year unemployed. Under this budget short-term recipients receive only a 10 per cent increase in benefit whereas long-term recipients receive a 12 per cent increase.

Pensioners particularly have lost out under this Bill. They have been given slightly higher rates of increase by virtue of their being long-term recipients. This has tended to cover up the fact that they still receive no pay-related benefit and are dependent totally on flat rate payments. This is very unfair to people retiring on contributory pension. Since 1977 they had been making insurance contributions on a pay related basis without getting any benefit whatsoever for it.

During the past few years different Governments and parties have been talking about a national income related pension scheme, but it has not happened: people have been paying insurance contributions on a pay related basis but not getting any benefit for it. It is becoming increasingly urgent to have a national income related pension scheme.

Another section in the Bill provides for cuts in disability benefits. They are being hit particularly harshly. A married man with a large number of dependents will find that his decreases in April will be offset to some extent by the increases in June, but single people and married women will suffer very severe losses in April which they will not make up in June. The overall benefit ceiling for disability payments will be reduced from the present 100 per cent to 80 per cent of reckonable earnings.

The most extraordinary feature of the Bill is the cut in maternity benefit. Pay related benefit is payable with maternity benefit. Women entitled to paid maternity leave will suffer reductions in their level of payment. In other words, just two years after the trade union movement fought for and got this paid maternity leave, an important part of these rights is being whittled down in this Bill. This, combined with the removal of maternity grants and the total failure to increase children's allowances, is an indication of a further target for attack on women and larger families, the ill, the old and the unemployed.

Indeed it would seem from this Bill that the process of dismantling the whole PRSI scheme is beginning. One wonders if it is the intention of the Government and Minister to dismantle what had not yet reached maturity. The system of pay related social insurance was there for only a short time and had not been built up to its full concept or properly understood. I wonder do the Government know what the letters PRSI stand for — pay related social insurance. It is an insurance policy related to pay, with the benefits related to pay. People are paying for these benefits. It is an insurance policy.

Is it being seen as a tax? It was never intended to be a tax. It is a pay related social insurance scheme so that people could provide for illness, for unemployment, for other problems in the future. It was intended to be something to protect workers, to give them benefits. Why should they not pay insurance sufficient to give them as much as they would have if they were working when they are unemployed? They will get it for 65 weeks only and are they not entitled to pay for their benefits? If they are not getting that should not their deductions be cut? If their benefits are decreased, any insurance company would have to decrease also their contributions. But not this Government — they cut the benefits but increased the contributions. It is obvious, therefore, that the Government have forgotten the concept of pay related social insurance. They are simply using it as another tax. The thousands who marched will see this simply as a substitute for further increases in PAYE. I can tell you those thousands will notice, or they have noticed, this.

The whole purpose of PRSI is to allow people to insure themselves against illness or unemployment or old age, and the concept is being lost and the very mention of PRSI now is more hateful to the workers than PAYE. They were willing to accept PRSI because they saw it could be beneficial to them, but now they are not. I question the morality and the legality of this Bill and what it is doing. I question the constitutionality of a number of the provisions in the Bill.

Let us take those on short time. I referred to the person on a three day week. His three-day benefit is being cut to two days and in addition he will not be entitled to any pay related benefit whatsoever, although such a person still pays PRSI. It is a big if, but if there is any justice in the courts of the land and if the same attitude to the Constitution is taken to protect the rights of workers as has been taken in regard to protecting the rights of property owners, if that justice exists and if a worker on a three-day week from whom PRSI is being deducted although he will not get any benefit took that to court do you not think he would win his case hands down? I do not think there is any doubt about it if such justice exists. I suggest that the Minister for Social Welfare should consider that very carefully, because when the full impact of this is felt in a few weeks — people will not realise it fully until it hits their pockets or the palms of their hands — there will be many angry people who will take varied types of action, and court action could be one of those actions. I will quote from page 3 of the Minister's speech:

It is relatively easy to give generous increases to social welfare recipients during periods of economic growth with low rates of inflation, but the real test of a caring society lies in its response when our economy is in recession. This Government has no intention of allowing the weaker sections of our community who are dependent on social welfare incomes to suffer a drop in their real living standards.

This is precisely what this Bill is about. This Bill is intended to ensure that they do suffer a drop in their living standards. The Minister continued:

We will take whatever steps are necessary to achieve an equitable distribution of the national resources. Neither will we permit these scarce resources to be misused by a minority at the expense of people in genuine need and of the working population who support the benefits through their PRSI contributions and general taxation.

It is a lovely piece of verbiage. He then proceeded to do the direct opposite of what he said a caring Government should be doing. He said:

Sections 5, 6 and 7 provide for reductions in the benefits available to persons engaged in short-time employment.

He made the point that there was quite a controversy about people in short-time employment getting more than when they were working full-time. He said:

The most common arrangement for short-time working is where workers, normally engaged on a five day week, work for three days and are laid off for two. In general these workers receive three-fifths of their basic pay and, after the statutory waiting period, three days flat-rate unemployment benefit and pay-related benefit, representing half the appropriate weekly rate of these benefits which are payable on the basis of a six day week. To illustrate the extent to which short-time workers are better off than when working full-time, I would cite the following examples. As a percentage of his normal take-home pay when working full-time, a worker on a three day week with gross earnings of £100 a week would receive by way of pay and benefit amounts ranging from 104 per cent if he is single to 113 per cent if he is married with two children.... In addition, many short-time workers also qualify for income tax refunds because of their reduced earnings.

If somebody gets 104 per cent or 113 per cent it means he has paid in PRSI for these benefits. For the Minister to come in and say:

In addition, many short-time workers also qualify for income tax refunds because of their reduced earnings

is simply outrageous. Why are they getting a tax refund? They are getting a tax refund because too much money was deducted from them. It is deducted week by week. They are not allowed to wait until the following year to pay their taxes as other people are. They never even get it. When a tax refund comes eventually it means that while they are getting it back they are not getting the interest. This is an outrageous attitude for the Minister to adopt. The worker should have got this money into his hand six, eight or 12 months earlier but it was assumed he would be working for a full year.

The Minister referred to the PRSI not paid in by various companies. According to the Minister in 1981-82 £25 million of PRSI which was deducted from workers' pay packets was taken by 11,000 employers and put into their own businesses. It was admitted here by Deputy Skelly that he knows an employer in the Dublin West constituency who took £200,000 in that way and used it to pay for an order. That £25 million and that £200,000 belonged to the Exchequer and to take that money out of workers' pockets and not pay it over to the Exchequer was fraud and robbery, a crime against the State and they should be charged with criminal activity. There is still £14 million outstanding from 1980-81 and £6 million from 1979-80. That makes a total of £45 million outstanding for the past three years that has not been paid over.

The Minister makes clear that the PRSI cuts will bring in £16.5 million. Taking that in the context of the £45 million not paid over by the employers, what is the Minister doing? He is forcing people on social welfare to pay extra taxes, to take extra cuts or to go hungry to make up for the fact that employers did not pay in £45 million. That is outrageous and every worker will consider it outrageous. I believe workers will think it is so outrageous that come April this House will be startled out of its lethargy. I have been here for the past couple of months and think there is a lethargy and a lack of appreciation of what is happening out there, of how people are going to react to this. Do they think people will take this sitting down? How much do they think people will take or can take? People will go hungry as a result of this Social Welfare Bill. Anyone who votes for this Bill will be answerable to the people's wrath. It is unbelievable that a Deputy should actually make excuses, as Deputy Skelly did this morning, for employers who do not pay over the PAYE and PRSI they have already deducted from their workers. To make excuses for that type of criminal robbery arouses the wrath of people even further.

I urge every Member of the House before voting on this Bill to think seriously about the actual effects it will have, and to think seriously about the attitude which the workers, who are the vast majority of the people of this country, will adopt to this Bill if it is passed. Its effects will not be really apparent to the vast majority of the people until April when it begins to bite. At that stage we can expect a reaction against this Bill which I believe will be totally justified. Therefore I urge Deputies not to pass it.

I am glad to have an opportunity to speak on this Bill. I listened to other speakers who made various criticisms of the Bill and I did not hear any great measure of objectivity. The major objective of any social welfare system must be to ensure a reasonable living standard for all the people who depend on the State as their only source of income. Down through the years successive Governments have made significant improvement in the social welfare code. Nevertheless there are glaring inadequacies in it, and payments to certain types of social welfare recipients are insufficient.

How do all these problems arise in the first instance? The growing level of unemployment poses very serious problems for any Government. It causes an undue strain on the revenue available to meet increases in social welfare payments. Everyone recognises that unemployment is a serious evil which corrodes the self-respect of an individual and seriously damages the lives and outlook of young people, particularly at a time when so many young people are being thrust onto the dole queues having looked for their first jobs and been unable to get them due to a variety of reasons. Unemployment disrupts family life and gives rise to great human suffering.

For this Government, therefore, the provision of more jobs is an urgent economic necessity and a compelling social priority. As we all know, the difficulty of creating additional jobs is not new. If a breakthrough is to be made — and we would all like to see more people working and fewer people depending on increasingly limited resources for our welfare system — something new must be attempted.

There has been a significant growth in the labour force. This, accompanied by the various technological changes in industry, creates further and further redundancies. Work sharing, shared employment and early retirement are some of the concepts being put forward, but little awareness of them is being created. The major objective of those in employment is to try to hold on to what they have at all costs without having due regard to the many who may never find a first job. We are facing that awful situation.

As politicians we have contributed enormously to that situation over the years because of a lack of courage to take decisions at various times and because of political expediency. In the past we have had Coalition Governments who made enormous contributions and succeeded in making enormous improvements in the social welfare code. Opposition speakers suggest that the pay-related system is being dismantled, but that scheme was introduced by a Coalition Government. They had the foresight to see that they had to protect the rights of workers. That has always been my interest. On this Bill I have the opportunity to put on record how I feel about workers and their rights.

In 1977 the number of people registered as unemployed was in the region of 103,000. This was at a time when a Coalition Government went out of office. It represented a little more than 8 per cent of the work force. Even in the seventies, with our accession to the EEC, there was a great measure of productivity. There was a greater level of wealth generation. The problems of oil prices have been well orchestrated and I do not wish to go into them again. At the end of December last we were nearing a figure of 180,000 unemployed and the percentage had gone up to 14½ or thereabouts.

That is the background against which the Government have to try to provide the increases which are now being demanded. They are almost regarded as part and parcel of every budget. Fianna Fáil pride themselves on being the great custodians of the needy, the weak and the social welfare recipients. Crocodile tears were mentioned in the House yesterday. The other side of the House are shedding crocodile tears about a number of matters to which, as they well know, they were the greatest contributory factors over the past four or five years. I do not wish to dwell on this. The fact that it has been mentioned reminds them of their objectivity in that area.

The recently announced unemployment figure of 188,335 shows a further upward trend. It is most alarming. I have given serious consideration to this whole area of employment, to be positive, but if we cannot get our finances in order the creation of employment is not possible. We cannot continue to spend almost the total intake of PAYE on servicing our borrowing which was entered into in an effort to maintain living standards that we know too well today are totally unreal. We cannot do anything in this area until there is a considerable improvement with regard to the creation of wealth, investment in industry, agriculture and so on.

The fact that there were 42,000 more people unemployed at the end of December than there were one year ago is a frightening and horrifying statistic. How can we halt this upward trend? We have initiated various programmes for full employment and we have published various White Papers on the economy but they all seem to have failed. We must ask the question, is there the will or the resolution on the part of politicians to take the necessary steps to ensure an improvement in that area? Direct social welfare benefits and substantial social improvements cannot take place unless there is considerable economic advance. The cost of unemployment is a major factor in the present Exchequer imbalance. My party and the main Opposition Party campaigned, particularly in the last election, on the basis that they would take the necessary measures to ensure that this imbalance would be corrected.

In the circumstances the Minister for Social Welfare has done a reasonably good job. I accept that possibly there are certain points in the Bill that are unacceptable to people who unfortunately find themselves unemployed in the short-term, but in the past few years the situation where people could earn more while unemployed or in part-time work than if they were in full-time employment has provoked much discussion. While that may not be a widespread abuse, the philosophy of Fine Gael and the Labour Party in Coalition must be that of the work ethic. We must try to ensure that employers will not put people on short-time work except in exceptional circumstances. There has been a major and alarming growth in that area that needs serious investigation. It is the easy way out. Even employers are beginning to milk the system, to make use of the social welfare code to pay for wages they should pay. The provision regarding short-time working has been much criticised. The agitation and emotion that has been building up in the country will have serious long-term effects on the overall prospects for job creation.

The Opposition have seen fit to condemn this Bill. I ask them the question: if the situation were reversed, what would they do in the circumstances? They ran away from the problem last May because a by-election was pending in Dublin West. If they had taken measures then on a gradual basis we might not be in our present situation. Many different recipes have been put forward for curing our present economic situation. Perhaps all of them have some merit: I accept that it depends on how one looks at the situation.

All increases in services cost money, and this must be acknowledged. There appears to be less incentive to try to find a job or to ensure that when a person has a job he makes every effort to increase the level of productivity and to ask for a smaller wage increase in order to ensure the long-term security of the job. There are various influences operating in our system that will try to build up agitation and emotion about this Bill in order to generate serious public and industrial unrest.

On their own admission Fianna Fáil have been converted to fiscal rectitude through necessity, and they have put forward their programme "The Way Forward". I do not think there is any way other than that being promoted by this Government. We may have various differences on the way we pursue certain programmes but basically the philosophy is the same. I say to Fianna Fáil that they have a greater measure of responsibility in Opposition than they had when in Government. I ask them to accept that responsibility with the courage they pride themselves in possessing and not allow the country to go to rack and ruin. That is the direction in which we are heading unless we get the necessary support. It is vital that we work together as a unit to bring about necessary improvements in all areas. If we can provide sufficient jobs we will be able to give the social welfare increases we would like to give to those in need. No one can accuse any one of the Coalition Governments in my memory of failing to meet the needs of the underprivileged.

Let that go on record as a fact. All the evidence is there to support it. We cannot have the additional increases we would like to see or make the amendments the Opposition would like to see. Perhaps the Minister might consider some small areas but he had no other course open to him. As a man who prides himself in looking after the interests of the underprivileged he has tremendous courage to present this Bill to the House. If industrial workers would only see reason and give the necessary support to the Bill, in the long term it will have unquestionable benefits for everyone.

Any increases or changes must mean additional taxation. We listened to the various arguments against increases in VAT and other forms of taxation. Those on fairly good incomes do not have too much to worry about as far as making ends meet is concerned. Even if there had been moderate or large increases in the social welfare system there would still be many who would find it exceedingly difficult to manage. We must make the necessary adjustments, otherwise we will have additional taxation and PRSI contributions. This would result in additional costs for industry and greater difficulty in trying to sell our products, which in turn would mean further unemployment, a higher level of inflation and further economic chaos, as if we have not enough chaos at present.

There is abuse of the social welfare system. I have come across it as a politician but I am not paid to disclose such abuses. Sometimes those who are turn a blind eye to it. It happens that people who are working can go to their local police station and put their unemployment slip under the door. I cannot put a figure on the level of abuse that is taking place, but the fact that it is happening is a crime against those genuinely entitled to a level of welfare consistent with the demands of our time.

I should like to refer to the wave of emotionalism sweeping the country. This was referred to by the previous speaker. He said that come 5 April we would have a great deal of agitation. I say to those who would so agitate that they may derive short-term benefits but in the long term we will all lose. We must all work together. The greater the level of income one can take home the greater the contentment one will have with one's job.

In the public service there is great job security. Those employed there do not have to worry about whether they get sickness benefit if they are out sick for six months. They do not have to pay the full level of PRSI, yet there is a great deal of resentment building up there. We saw what happened in relation to cuts in education. While that is not appropriate to this Bill it is appropriate to the overall strategy of the Government who came to office at a time when the Estimates were ready and published and little change could take place.

We are in Government and intend to stay there. Let the Opposition understand that. They may try to drive a wedge between various elements in the Labour Party and our party on different issues, but the more they try the more they will succeed in bringing us together in a unified way to try to improve the overall welfare of the people. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions expressed outright opposition to the Bill. I ask them to consider it further. Any disruption in the industrial area in an attempt to achieve change will be damaging to the economy. As trade unionists, we are all concerned to work to achieve full employment. Let us not be too concerned about short-time working. However, I ask the Minister to look at the position of a person who works for three days and has two days off. That represents a five day week, and the two days should be paid at two-fifths rather than two-sixths. That is an anomaly.

I go along with the Bill because it offers welfare recipients not what I would like to give them but all that we can in difficult circumstances. I believe there will be an upturn in the economy. Let us have hope for the future and say to the young people that there are jobs for them. We must work together and try to control wage costs. Some trade unions are demanding a 20 per cent wage increase. This is what comes across in the headlines and sets the tone in workers' minds. Nothing could be more illogical or irrational. I would ask the press, in these circumstances, not to be using unimaginative headlines which are creating agitation in workers' minds.

During the general election campaign we told people they would have to accept a lower level of income. We cannot be trying to maintain our living standards when we all know that a lessening of those standards is not only desirable but essential. Let us try to create greater productivity in our industries. I read a report recently of one industry where one worker out of 350 was working at a 70 per cent level of productivity, most of the workers were at a level of between 70 per cent and 50 per cent but some were below 50 per cent. While you have that situation, how can you generate wealth and create products that are saleable?

I want to offer advice to all trade unionists. Many products are being used and consumed here which are processed and manufactured abroad. We should stop to think when we are buying a foreign product even though it might result in a saving in the short term. As long as we keep demanding more for ourselves, in social welfare or in other areas, there is little hope for us.

I do not wish to go through the Minister's Bill in any great detail. The PAYE aspect is the most contentious, the rest is acceptable. The fact that pay-related is not available to short term workers must give rise to serious consideration on the part of employers that they should resort to short term working only in a disastrous situation. The fact that there has been such a major increase must be viewed with suspicion. I hope that by the end of the year we will see a big reduction in the number of people on short term employment. For that reason, the effects of the section may not be as widespread, damaging and unpalatable as they appear at present.

I congratulate the Minister on having the courage to make these decisions. I know he has the confidence of his Government in so doing. He will equally have the support of all his backbenchers in implementing these measures.

I wish to congratulate the Minister and the Minister of State on their appointments. I would also like to sympathise with the Minister because I know he is genuinely interested in the problems of workers and it must be galling for him, as one who is known for his interest in workers, to bring in this, as someone already described it, unsocial welfare Bill. This is one of the most right wing, reactionary and uncaring documents that has ever been introduced in this House. I know the Minister had no option but to bring it in because, being a Minister, he has to share the collective responsibility of the Cabinet.

I would like to comment on one or two points made by Deputy Dowling. He spoke about Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael sharing the same philosophy. I am sorry that Deputy Dowling has left the House because I want to tell him that Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael do not share the same philosophy. If the philosophy contained in this Bill is that of Deputy Dowling, I and the other members of my party certainly do not share it. He also talked about our conversion. I would like to remind him that when the Estimates were published Fine Gael and the Labour Party got political mileage out of them, especially in relation to some of the suggestions regarding school transport and the health charges. Many speeches were made saying that if they were returned to Government they would not stand over these charges. We all know what happened, but that can be debated at some other time.

I am positive that the Minister would not share the philosophies of the Government but for the fact that he is a Minister. Deputy Dowling also referred to a suggestion that Deputy Mac Giolla made in relation to demonstrations. I do not advocate demonstrations but when the big PAYE and PRSI demonstrations took place, we did not hear any condemnation by Deputy Dowling or members of his party. The more one studies the Bill and goes into the philosophies behind it, the more one realises what the full impact of its draconian measures will be. One can only anticipate what people's reactions will be when they realise the full implications of the Bill. It must be one of the first Social Welfare Bills that does not contain an extension of children's allowances, except in the negative sense in section 12, where people who are apprentices will not be counted for the purposes of children's allowances. This is not a good thing. It was referred to by Deputy Mac Giolla and by others. They maintain, as I do, that apprentices should be eligible for children's allowances.

Perhaps the Minister would clarify a seeming contradiction. In the second paragraph of his opening statement he said: "The necessity to make available from the overall allocation for social welfare services in 1983 an additional £31 million..." In the little green book on the budget supplied to Deputies by the Minister for Finance we are told at page 56 that an extra £31 million is provided for potential unemployment. Was an extra £31 million provided or was that allocation taken from the estimates for other social welfare services?

The delay in paying the increased allowances is to be deprecated. I understand it will be the end of June or early July before recipients will receive these increases. That represents a real loss to social welfare recipients. They are now starting to feel the effects of the budget with the increase in value added tax and the imposition for the first time of the tax on fuel of all types. The increases — 10 per cent in some cases and 12 per cent in others — are minimal. They will not enable recipients to maintain their present standard of living. We should all be concerned about these people who, through no fault of their own, are able to provide for themselves only the bare necessities and, even though the economic climate is not good, we should go further towards providing more real benefits for them.

A great deal has been said about short time and pay related benefits. We all agree there should not be a situation in which people can get more for part-time working or staying at home than they would in a normal job. Of course, the reality is that these overpayments last for a very, very short time. It has to be remembered also that many who become unemployed are faced with heavy repayments. I say that by way of extenuation. As I said earlier, the reality is that the period is very short lived indeed.

Coming to the cutbacks, the Minister said that during 1982 an estimated £77.8 million was paid in pay related benefit and the provision for 1983 is £61.3 million. Contrast that with something the Minister said earlier and the extent of the cuts will become very obvious. The Minister said that the previous Government when preparing its estimates for 1983 forecast an average of 177,000 unemployed. These figures had to be updated. They were, of course, updated by the same civil servants who provided the first set of figures for the previous Government. The present Government has assumed an average of 193,000 people unemployed for the year. Some 16,000 more people will find themselves unemployed or redundant. They would be entitled to pay-related benefits, but the estimate is reduced for the current year by almost £17.5 million. That gives us some idea of the extent of the cutbacks. We are being asked to pass these cutbacks, as Deputy Dowling said, without a murmur. Many of these will be people who are faced with mortgages on their homes. They will now be faced with a reduction in their standard of living and the necessity to maintain heavy mortgages. Looking ahead the possibility is that in six or eight months' time the lending agencies will be moving in to reposess these homes, thereby throwing an additional burden on local authorities because they will be asked to provide housing for these people.

I congratulate the Minister on stating unequivocally that our social welfare payments are in line with and, in many cases, better than those in the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. For too long that argument has been used by vested interests as one of the reasons why some of the people in Northern Ireland would not be very interested in reunification. I am glad the Minister went to the trouble of actually pointing out that our social welfare benefits could not be a deterrent to reunification and that in real terms in many cases they are better than those that apply in the North or across the water.

There is a great need at this stage to have a look at and complete reform of many aspects of our social welfare legislation and to prepare a proper and detailed plan integrating many of the provisions that we have already. Deputy Byrne spoke about the necessity for allowing social welfare to be paid while people were being retrained. I would like to draw the Minister's attention to a letter which I received from a constitutent which points out some of the drawbacks and anomalies that exist. She wrote asking whether I would be able to help her to obtain a job for her son who had been an apprentice with some two years' training behind him. Unfortunately, he was let go by his employer and this lady wrote saying that this young man was now in receipt of more money on social welfare than he had been when he was an apprentice, but her anxiety was that he had two wasted years as an apprentice, that he would no longer be able to continue his apprenticeship with another employer because in my area very little employment is available. She could not see the sense of that and she felt it would have been better if an incentive were given to the employer to keep that young man until at least he had completed his apprenticeship and then he would be able to take his full place in society and to compete on equal terms for jobs that would come up and he would not find himself in the limbo of having half his apprenticeship served and being unable to obtain employment so as to finish that apprenticeship. It seems ludicrous that this kind of thing should happen and that the money now being given to him — which she says she is quite happy about — should not have been allocated in some way towards finishing his training.

We have heard a tremendous amount about abuses in some allegations thrown across the floor of the House. It is important that we analyse the abuses. It could be said generally that they come in probably two major groups, abuses by individuals and abuses by employers. I know full well the Minister's thinking on abuses and I agree with him particularly in regard to the abuses we have seen — he referred to this at length in his speech — where many firms go bankrupt and the PRSI contributions from their employees have not been paid over. I know at first hand the anxiety, agony and uncertainty caused to these workers who found themselves suddenly locked out without a job and then had to turn around and fight for what they were legally entitled to. I know the tremendous trouble that people have to go to to ensure that people who have been at work for years and who should have been able by writing to the Department of Social Welfare to get their just payments, had to spend months going to supplementary welfare or home assistance officers or borrowing from relations in an effort to keep their families together until the mess had been cleared up and the money which they had contributed and which had been stopped from them was sorted out and repayments made. I am fully behind the Minister in his efforts to make certain that this does not happen.

I have no time at all for those who collect social welfare or assistance or benefit while they are working. They are preventing these scarce resources — I am as fully cognisant of the fact that resources are scarce as is anybody else in the House — being given to people who are genuinely entitled to them. As a public representative I have come across cases, particularly in relation to medical referees, where consultant doctors in the regional hospital in Galway have no hesitation in issuing certificates after X-rays etc. that the person is not fit for work and then that person is passed as fit for work by a medical referee. I had a case in one clinic of a man who came in with a collar and a stick whose hands were so badly swollen that he could not lift an envelope, yet he had been passed as fit the previous day by a medical referee. I could not understand it. While none of us wants to see abuses, we would like the other side of the story to be cleared up. People who are genuinely ill should have no great problem in obtaining their proper benefits.

Section 13 of the Bill refers to an issue which will be of tremendous importance in my area and that is the decision that smallholders will be factually assessed. I can only anticipate what will happen, in the light of the experience I have as a public representative, in relation to appeals and reviews. It takes at least three to four months before an appeal for social welfare or a review of an applicant's assistance is processed. I would be grateful if the Minister would satisfy me on a number of matters. I had the experience of social welfare officers, particularly in the case of widows, not taking into account various farm expenses — I stress farm expenses which have to be met before the income is calculated. Would the Minister clarify, perhaps in writing, what is to be taken into account in relation to the calculation of means, whether legitimate farm expenses will be allowed, or if there is a form which will give the applicant a reasonable chance of putting his case properly?

Debate adjourned.
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