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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Jun 1983

Vol. 343 No. 4

Estimates, 1983. - Vote 34: Fisheries.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £18,752,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December 1983, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry, including sundry grants-in-aid.

As is the usual practice I will discuss the Fisheries and Forestry Estimate together and I shall move the Forestry Estimate after the debate concludes.

As a result of the Government's efforts to reduce overall expenditure and borrowing the Fisheries Estimate shows a decrease of IR£822,000 over last year's vote. The overall decrease is due mainly to a reduction in the amount allocated for the main fishery harbour works including payments to the Fishery Harbour Centres Fund, a reduction in the grant-in-aids to BIM for current and capital purposes and an increase in Appropriations-in-Aid from fines and forfeitures arising from the prosecution of foreign fishing vessels for illegal fishing. These reductions have been partly offset by increases in the cost of other services, mainly in the salary provisions and in the grants paid to the Central and Regional Fishery Boards. I am satisfied that the reductions will not seriously affect the development of the fishing industry.

The value of domestic landings in 1982, excluding salmon landings, amounted to £43.7 million as against £35.4 million in 1981, an increase of 23.4 per cent. In addition there were landings by Irish registered vessels into foreign ports valued at some £3.2 million. The total quantity of fish landed at home ports in 1982 was 195,000 tonnes. This is a record figure and represents an increase of 18,000 tonnes over the 1981 catch. The industry also registered a new export record of £68 million which was 33? per cent up on the 1981 figure.

Over 70 firms are at present involved in fish processing employing about 1,700 persons. A total of 14 projects incorporating either new processing plants or extensions to existing ones were approved for grant purposes in the calendar year 1982 involving a total capital investment of £5.12 million including State investment of £1.1 million.

Deputies will be aware that agreement on a Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) was finally reached at the Council of Ministers meeting in Brussels on 21 January 1983. Before going any further I would like to thank all of my predecessors, on both sides of the House, who contributed to what were protracted and difficult negotiations. This is an agreement of vital interest to the fishing industry and it is, therefore, appropriate that I should give some details, however brief, on the component elements of the agreement as they affect us. They are as follows:—

(1) Access — This refers to access by member states to the waters of other member states. The CFP provides for the maintenance of the existing six-mile zone exclusive to Irish fishermen and improvements have been achieved in the six- to 12-mile zone. In addition, Irish vessels will continue to retain their existing rights to fish in the UK six- to 12-mile zone in the most productive parts of the Irish Sea and off the west of Scotland, the Isle of Man and Northern Ireland.

(2) Quotas — These represent the share-out of the available total allowable catches which are based on scientific assessment of the state of the stocks. Normally such share-out is based on historic fishing patterns but in Ireland's case we are considerably aided by the existence of an agreement reached by the Council of Ministers in The Hague in 1976 to the effect that Ireland be allowed to double her 1975 catch by 1979. It is appropriate that I pay tribute here to our Taoiseach who, as Minister for Foreign Affairs in 1976, played no small part in achieving that commitment. In a situation where overall fish stocks in EEC waters have been decreasing year by year it has proved invaluable and indeed is the envy of many other member states in the Community. The quotas agreed for 1982 compared very favourably with the targets established under The Hague agreement, the only exception being herring where there are restrictions on catches on grounds of conservation. Even here, however, this was compensated for by an increased quota of mackerel.

Our quotas have been mistakenly condemned on the grounds that we are offered only 4 per cent of the total fish available in the Community whereas we have 25 per cent of Community waters. This misleading statement, although factually correct, takes no account of the huge stock differences as between waters adjacent to Ireland and for example the highly productive areas of the North Sea, Baltic Sea and Skaggerak/Kattegat areas where the bulk of the Community fish stocks occurs. It also ignores the large Irish catches taken in UK waters. Taking into account those stocks subject to quotas and located partly or wholly in Irish waters, it is estimated that the Irish quotas represent some 86 per cent of these stocks and that the total stocks in Irish waters comprise 6 per cent of the total EEC stocks. I trust that these facts dispose of the argument that our quota allocations should be related to the percentage that our waters constitute of total Community waters.

We have recently received the 1983 quota proposals from the EEC Commission and these will be subject to discussion later by the Council of Ministers. In a number of cases reductions have been proposed in total allowable catches which have led in our case to reduced quotas being proposed for some species. This is particularly serious in the case of mackerel on which our fishermen and processors have become very dependent. While in most cases our percentage share of the total allowable catches is at least as high as that agreed for 1982, I am concerned that the quotas now proposed may be inadequate to meet the expanding needs of the industry in Ireland and I will be doing my utmost to have them increased. I have already made my dissatisfaction clear to the Commission.

(3) Conservation — There is a series of technical measures for the conservation of fish stocks such as limitations on mesh sizes, landing sizes and a ban on certain methods of fishing. These will facilitate the strict conservation of fish stocks on a Community-wide level based on scientific advice.

(4) Control — Control will be effected by keeping a strict system of surveillance on catch levels through the keeping of log books by fishing vessels and the submission of catch reports. It will be further strengthened by the establishment of an EEC inspection force with the objective of supervising the enforcement of the quota and conservation regulations. Proper monitoring and control will be essential if the CFP is to achieve its objectives.

(5) Structures — This heading embraces the provision of Community aid for the restructuring of the fleet and for aquaculture. Grant-aid will now be available for the following measures: —

(a) Permanent and temporary laying-up of vessels to relieve overcapacity in the fleet;

(b) Encouragement of exploratory fishing for new species and permanent removal of fishing vessels from the Community fleet by way of joint ventures with non-EEC countries for the purpose of exploiting resources located outside "Community" waters;

(c) Construction of new fishing vessels and the modernisation and conversion of fishing vessels already in use;

(d) Aquaculture projects;

(e) Construction of artificial reefs (in the Mediterranean only).

Ireland will qualify for more favoured financial treatment in this area being eligible for grant-aid up to 50 per cent of the cost of approved projects as against the normal 25 per cent.

(6) Market Organisation — A new regulation for the Common Organisation of the Market, comprising a price and trading system and common rules of competition, came into force on 1 January 1983. Broadly speaking, the regulation provides for market standards for fish measures dealing with the setting up, financing and operations of producers' organisations of fishermen, the system of price support arrangements for fish catches and provisions governing trade with non-EEC countries.

The main improvements in the new marketing structure from Ireland's point of view are:

(a) The strengthening of the role of existing producers' organisations and increased aid measures for new producers' organisations;

(b) A broader criterion for establishing withdrawal prices and the introduction of some flexibility in their operation to take account of market fluctuations;

(c) Increased financial compensation levels payable by the Commission for fish withdrawn from the market which fail to find a buyer at or above the withdrawal price;

(d) A better protection system against market disruption caused by low cost imports from non-EEC countries;

(e) Financial aid for the storage of withdrawn fish in an attempt to retain such fish for the human consumption market.

Some misgivings have been expressed about the marketing regulation, particularly its effectiveness in controlling cheap imports from third countries which Ireland is very concerned about. The new regime, while it may not be perfect, represents a big improvement on the old regime and there are already indications that it will prove more effective against imports.

(7) Third Country Fishing—Only those non-EEC countries which conclude agreements with the Community may fish in future within the Irish 200-mile zone and under no circumstances may they trawl inside a "box" which is anywhere nearer to the Irish coast than 50 miles. Access of such countries to particular fish stocks will be allowed only on the basis of quantities surplus to Irish and Community needs and their vessels will be subject to the general conservation and control regulations. While on the subject of third countries, I would like to say that the amending legislation which I have promised to deal with the use of flags of convenience will be introduced in the House shortly and will I hope be given a speedy passage.

This then is the broad outline of what we know as the Common Fisheries Policy. I remain convinced that it represents the best "deal" that could have been achieved given the constraints of time and conflicting interests that existed. All are agreed that the absence of a Common Fisheries Policy has bedevilled the European fishing scene for many years and I am confident that the agreement now reached can only assist in the more orderly and efficient development of our sea-fishing industry.

The grant-in-aid to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara for 1983 for administration and current development amounts to IR£4.7 million and the grant-in-aid for capital development amounts to IR£3.1 million. Additional funds are available by way of repayable advances from the Central Fund, a line of credit from financial institutions and the board's own resources to meet the demand by fishermen for loans for boats, gear, and so on. In addition to an interest subvention of £950,000 a sum of approximately £2 million is provided to meet the cost of grants under the board's Marine Credit Plan. The board's grant-in-aid for capital development also includes a provision of £420,000 by way of grants for mariculture development and £300,000 towards the cost of refurbishing the Decca navigation system.

I am concerned at the high level of arrears on fishing boats loans which are due to a variety of factors. I have asked the board that each case of arrears be treated on its merits and that boats be not repossessed from fishermen who are making a genuine effort to meet their commitments. I am not, however, prepared to give a blanket undertaking that no boats will be repossessed but I am confident that the board, with a genuine response from the skippers concerned, will find solutions to the problems in most cases.

I am examining ways and means of improving our marketing structure and I propose to set up an ad hoc advisory group representative of BIM, the Department and all sectors of the industry to make recommendations on marketing strategy.

In recent years interest in acquaculture in Ireland has grown rapidly with a particular emphasis on the cultivation of oysters, mussels and escallops. The cultivation of these species is a relatively new technology with progressive developments in methods of culture and this factor, along with cultivation in new untried areas, requires a period of evaluation before success can be assured.

An Bord Iascaigh Mhara continue to operate their Mariculture Grants Scheme for pilot and commercial scale fish farming projects and this scheme and the grants which the EEC continue to make available for such projects play a very significant role in the development of this sector.

Progress is continuing on improvement works on landing, berthage and other facilities necessary at fishing ports and landing places.

At Killybegs an extensive dredging programme has been completed to provide adequate depth in the harbour generally and additional depths in specified areas to meet the needs of the bigger trawlers now using the port. Tenders are being examined by the Office of Public Works for the civil engineering works in connection with the installation of a syncrolift and it is hoped to place a contract very soon. Work on the construction of an automatic telephone exchange, which will give much needed improvement in the telephone service, is due to commence shortly. A new fish freezing plant has gone into production.

At Castletownbere a 38 kv electricity supply, which will provide an adequate power supply for the industrial expansion envisaged as a result of harbour development, has been laid on recently. Work is virtually completed on an effluent disposal plant for Dinish Island. Work on the servicing of industrial sites on Dinish Island was carried out during 1982.

The development scheme at Howth is progressing according to plan. The West Pier has been widened and I expect the installation of the syncrolift to commence shortly. Work on the syncrolift boatyard with traverser bays has already started. Expenditure on the overall scheme at the end of 1982 amounted to £8.5 million.

At Rossaveal the old pier has been repaired and a new lighting system has been provided on the new pier. Marker buoys have been installed in the approaches to the harbour and plans for a directional light have been drawn up by Irish Lights. The preparation of plans for a major development scheme is in hands.

A major development scheme at Caherciveen is virtually completed and substantial schemes are in progress at Kilcummin, Killala, County Mayo; Portevlin, County Donegal; and Oilean na gCaorach, Bere Island. It is expected that the works at Kilcummin and Oilean na gCaorach will be completed this year. Minor works are in progress at Seafield and Liscannor, County Clare, and should be completed shortly.

Development works are planned at Greencastle and Burtonport, County Donegal; Schull, County Cork, and at ten other landing places around the coast. These works will be carried out as soon as practicable and subject to the availability of the necessary funds.

The Central and Regional Fisheries Boards, which were set up in October, 1980, continue to work for the better conservation, protection and development of every aspect of our valuable inland fisheries.

Under section 32 of the Fisheries Act, 1980, the introduction of a staff scheme for the staff of the central and regional boards is well under way. Also I am glad to say that a superannuation scheme for the staff of the central and regional boards is at an advanced stage and it is hoped that this scheme will be introduced in the very near future.

The most important element of our inland fisheries is our salmon fisheries. Provisional figures for 1982 show that the total weight of the salmon catch by all fishing methods was approximately 900 metric tonnes valued at approx. £3.4 million as compared with 650 metric tonnes valued at £2.3 million in 1981. The overall weight of our salmon catch in 1982 showed an increase of almost 39 per cent on the 1981 catch. While this increase in the salmon catch is very welcome it should not be forgotten that the 1982 catch was still less than 50 per cent of the 2,188 tonnes caught in 1975. Illegal fishing continues to be a cause for great concern. In this regard I would strongly exhort everybody engaged in the salmon industry—whether as fishermen or authorised salmon dealers—to ensure compliance with the statutory salmon conservation measures which are designed to allow a sufficient escapement of returning salmon to our rivers to spawn consistent with reasonable exploitation of the stocks to the benefit of our commercial salmon fishermen, dealers, processors, exporters and our native and visiting salmon anglers. I must say that I am pleased with the improvement in protection since the regional fisheries boards were established and I am hopeful that within a short space of time we will be able to curb the poaching which has caused such damage to our salmon stocks over the years.

The salmon levy, which was introduced on 26 May 1980, was discontinued with effect from 1 June 1982. To date a total of £292,526.63 has been collected. The purpose of the levy was to provide additional finance for the development and protection of inland fisheries. To compensate for the loss of moneys collected by the salmon levy, the licence fees for fishing, licence duties and for dealers' and exporters' licences had to be increased substantially for 1983.

As to the protection of our salmon fisheries, my Department, with the co-operation of the Minister for Defence, arranged for vessels of the Naval Service to patrol the fishing grounds during the 1982 season in support of the protection being afforded by the Garda and the fisheries protection staff of the fisheries boards in the estuaries and the rivers. It is hoped to continue these patrols this season.

I am pleased to report that the Erriff salmon and sea trout fishery near Leenane, County Galway, which is one of the best salmon angling and sea trout fisheries in the country, has recently been acquired by the Central Fisheries Board. The lands attached to the fishery have been acquired by the Forest and Wildlife Service of the Department.

My Department, in conjunction with the fisheries boards, continue in the forefront of the battle to control pollution. Much interest continues to centre around the problems of Lough Sheelin. The transport subsidy scheme, operated by the Lough Sheelin Management Committee, is working satisfactorily and I am glad to say that almost 35 million gallons of excess slurry have been removed from the catchment under the scheme since its introduction in late 1980. The scheme will continue to operate until the end of this year and discussions will shortly take place with interested parties with a view to securing greater involvement of pig producers in the operation of the scheme thereafter.

The Salmon Research Trust of Ireland, which is funded jointly by my Department and Messrs. Arthur Guinness, Son & Co. Ltd, continue their research into the biology of the salmon and the factors bearing on its future survival as a species. A grant-in-aid of £60,000 is allocated to the trust for 1983.

An amount of £145,000 is included in the Estimate to meet our contribution towards the expenses of the Foyle Fisheries Commission. The money will be used to offset the commission's estimated financial deficit in 1983. The commission's increasing deficit is due mainly to increases in expenditure on wages and salaries and also the purchase of a patrol boat. I am satisfied, however, that the commission are continuing to make every effort to reduce their annual deficit. To that end the commission have increased the licence duties payable for salmon fishing licences in the Foyle area this year. I am satisfied that the commission are continuing to do everything possible to keep their annual deficit to an absolute minimum consistent with fulfilling their obligations under the Foyle Fisheries Acts to conserve and manage the fisheries in the Foyle area.

I recommend this Estimate to the House.

Having dealt with the Fisheries Vote I will now turn to the Forestry Estimate. The nett amount being provided for this year, namely — £38,670,000 — represents an increase of £3,883,000 — or 10 per cent — as compared with last year's Estimate. This increase, due largely to salary and wage increases, is partly offset by an increase of £325,000 in the estimated Appropriations-in-Aid.

Some subheads in this Vote allow for roughly the same level of expenditure as last year and do not call for any special comment, but if Deputies want detailed information about them I will be happy to provide it in my reply. I will, therefore, concentrate on the major items.

The main aim of the State forestry programme is to increase the size of the forest estate and the supply of wood to be processed for home and export markets, with due regard to amenity and recreation considerations and wildlife (fauna and flora) conservation requirements in the forest context. For many years the State afforestation target has stood at 10,000 hectares a year but in recent times, because of difficulties in acquiring land and the resultant unsatisfactory land reserve position, it has not been possible to attain this target. Last year, following a detailed examination of the situation, the Government decided that an annual planting target of 10,000 hectares per year, including reafforestation and planting of privately-owned land, should be maintained as an overall policy objective. At the same time it was accepted that, pending an improvement in the plantable reserve of State-owned land and an acceleration in the level of private forestry, an annual State planting programme of 7,500 hectares, to be augmented as much as possible by private planting, would be the most practical policy in the short term.

It goes without saying that every effort must be made to increase the intake of land for afforestation purposes. Ideally, the target should be to engage in land acquisition to such an extent as would sustain a State planting programme of 10,000 hectares per year but in present circumstances it is difficult to provide funds of the required magnitude. However, I am glad to say that in this year's Estimate a sum of £3.5 million is being allocated under subhead C.1 for land acquisition and it is expected that this amount, together with a balance of £380,000 in the land acquisition fund at 31 December 1982 will result in the purchase of approximately 7,000 hectares, but of course the bulk of this land will not come into the possession of my Department until next year and later depending on negotiations with individual landowners and the speed with which sales can be closed. In the current year, as a result of price agreements entered earlier, the land intake is likely to be of the order of 6,000 hectares. Clearfelling of existing plantations will make a further area of about 1,000 hectares available for replanting. However, I accept that this level of activity is far from satisfactory from the standpoint of a return to an afforestation level of 10,000 hectares per annum and it will be my aim to seek a much higher allocation for land acquisition in the years immediately ahead.

I would like now to pass on to subhead C.2 which relates to the existing State forest estate. This estate embraces 386,000 hectares of which 307,000 hectares have been planted — and its development and management include a variety of activities such as the production of nursery stock; the establishment, maintenance and protection of State plantations; the provision of amenities and public recreation facilities; the purchase, maintenance and hire of machinery; the construction of forest roads; and the whole field of timber harvesting and conversion. For these activities a provision of £26.827 million has been made under subhead C.2 for the current year. The level of activity being undertaken is broadly comparable with last year's performance and provides employment for a work force of about 2,500 men — usually in areas where alternative employment prospects are poor.

The stage is now being reached in Irish forestry where past investment is beginning to show a significant return. With the increased emphasis on timber harvesting the provision of adequate funds for forest roads and harvesting machinery assumes paramount importance. An increase of approximately 28 per cent in the allocation for road materials this year reflects the increasing number of plantations now reaching the stage where timber has to be extracted. The purchase of gravel and other materials used on forest roads contributes in no small way to the economy of the localities concerned. Although, unfortunately, none of the expensive and specialised machinery used in forestry operations is manufactured in Ireland, my Department are acutely aware of the need to spend as much of their budget as possible in this country. In illustration of this I would mention the purchase last year of two specialised machines for the transport of heavy materials over boggy terrain. Under the prescribed sealed tender competition arrangements the vehicle found most suitable for the Department's needs was a Canadian tracked machine. Following negotiations with the manufacturers the two machines, less cabs and engines, were supplied in a completely knocked down condition and arrangements were then made which enabled one Irish firm to supply the engines, assemble the two machines and do some extra fabrication work while another Irish firm was awarded the contract for the manufacture and fitting of the cabs. These arrangements, as well as providing outlets for Irish industry, also resulted in a fairly substantial saving to the Department.

The funds in subhead C.2 include a provision of £935,000 for machine hireage in 1983 and £640,000 for contract harvesting. This expenditure is mutually advantageous to the Department and to various machine owners and contractors. On the one hand it affords an outlet for the spare capacity of machinery in private ownership and on the other hand it reduces the need for capital expenditure by my Department on the purchase of specialised equipment for which it would have only part-time use.

There is a slight increase this year in the amounts being made available for the purchase of weedkillers and fertilisers. This is due partly to a greater use of chemicals for the control of weeds — work which was previously done manually at a greater cost — and the higher prices for fertilisers, mostly unground mineral phosphate, which have to be imported and paid for in US dollars.

Grant assistance to Chipboard Products Ltd., at Scarriff, County Clare, is provided for under subhead C.4. This company — set up with grant assistance from the Government — has been in production since May 1981. It is a private limited company employing some 200 people directly at the plant and a further 100 in timber harvesting and transport. The grant assistance of £1 million proposed for this year is intended partly for capital development and partly to meet the cost of subventing timber harvesting operations under the terms of a timber supply agreement between the State and the company.

In the area of timber promotion my Department are in consultation with the Department of the Environment with a view to increasing the market share of Irish timber in the housing sector and also to easing certain restrictions inhibiting the greater development of timber-frame housing.

I should like to take this opportunity to kill off the erroneous impression that my Department were allowing the export of timber at £1 a ton. This misconception appears to have stemmed from the fact that in recent years, when the pulpwood industries had virtually ceased operations, my Department encouraged the creation of export outlets as a temporary measure for this type of material in order to ensure the development of the primary forest product, namely sawlog, and also to maintain forest employment and facilitate the development of harvesting expertise. The pulpwood in question was sold standing in the forest, often in remote and difficult harvesting sites, and at the point of export it would have cost the exporter in the region of £20 a ton — mostly in wages. It should also be borne in mind that the ultimate value of such timber in terms of foreign currency earnings was of the order of £6 or £7 million per annum — a factor which helped to reduce the net cost of necessary timber imports. Nevertheless I am happy to say that, with the establishment of a pulpwood plant in Clonmel to manufacture medium density fibreboard, and which will commence production this summer, pulpwood exports will decrease as the demand by the new industry increases. Moreover, this firm will add greater stability to the timber industry generally by affording a welcome additional outlet for sawmill waste and chips.

The level of expenditure being provided this year for private forestry — subhead D of the Vote — is £300,000.

While progress to date in State forestry has on the whole been satisfactory, the contribution made by the private sector to the national afforestation programme has been disappointing. There are, of course, historical reasons for this but I am glad to say that there have been some encouraging signs of late that attitudes are beginning to change and that, with the State incentives now available, a substantial increase in private forestry will emerge in the years ahead.

The private forestry sector will receive full support in its operations from the Forest and Wildlife Service by way of grants and a free technical advisory service. Every effort is being made to generate wider interest both in the traditional planting grant scheme and the more recent forestry element of the EEC Western Package. This latter scheme was introduced primarily to encourage an expansion of private forestry in Counties Donegal, Leitrim, Sligo, Mayo, Galway, Monaghan, Longford, Cavan, Clare, Roscommon, Kerry and parts of Limerick and Cork. Grants of up to 85 per cent of the cost are available subject to a maximum of £800 per hectare. Regrettably, progress under the scheme to date has been slow. In 1982, only £61,000 was paid out in grants in respect of 170 hectares planted under the scheme.

As Deputies will be aware, the functions of State forestry have expanded in recent years far beyond the production of timber and the aims of my Department now include the provision of amenity and recreational facilities, game development and an on-going wildlife conservation programme.

On the amenity side, provision is made in subhead C.2 (4) of the Estimate for the maintenance of nine forest parks—the most recent being that at Currachase, County Limerick, which was officially opened last Autumn. In addition, provision is included for general amenity and recreational facilities in the State forests, which now contain over 400 areas open to the public and listed in my Department's publication entitled The Open Forest. The public are invited to continue to visit and use State forests where such usage would not interfere with the production of commercial timber.

On the game and wildlife side, provision is included in subhead G in respect of the services of the Wildlife Ranger Corps who deal with the enforcement of the Wildlife Act, 1976. There are currently 47 rangers engaged in enforcing the general protective provisions of the Act and more specifically in regulating hunting and dealing with poaching offences and illegal trade in wildlife species. They also have an important role in fostering a greater interest in wildlife conservation at local level.

I am aware that the absence of a provision in the Estimate for game development grants has been a source of grave disappointment to regional game councils and tourist shoot operators. Regrettably, the priorities which governed the formulation of public expenditure estimates for this year did not permit a continuation of such financial support. I appreciate the good work done by all these organisations over the years in the interests of game development and I sincerely hope that their enthusiasm will not be diminished by the present situation. The traditional advisory and liaison services provided by my Department for the game sector will continue to be made available and I would urge the sporting interests concerned to avail themselves of them.

Funds for the wildlife conservation programme are provided for in subhead H, the provision for 1983 being £170,000.

Research into wildlife habitats and species is a major element of the wildlife conservation programme. The Forest and Wildlife Service have identified a number of sites of different types of ecosystems around the country, particularly peatland areas, which are worthy of nature reserve status. Most of these sites are privately owned and, having regard to the cost of either acquiring them or entering into management agreements with the owners, progress in affording them statutory protection will inevitably be slow. However, this is a sector to which I am giving particular attention in the hope of securing some allocation of funds that would permit the conservation of at least the most vulnerable habitats. I am pleased to say that to date 12 nature reserves—mainly woodland reserves on State forest property—have been established and are being managed by my Department. The number of such reserves is likely to be increased during the year.

Public demand for information on wildlife and conservation is extremely keen and is met by the distribution by my Department of various educational leaflets which are continually being updated and expanded. On the international front, wildlife conservation has wide implications. The FWS continued to participate with various international organisations at EEC and other levels and every effort is being made to fulfil this country's obligations under the various directives, regulations and conventions which have emerged in recent years.

I should like at this point to pay a very special tribute to the on-going work of the Wildlife Advisory Council—a voluntary group—whose advice on a wide variety of wildlife conservation topics is greatly valued by me and my Department.

This address would be incomplete without a reference to the forestry research sector. In so far as silvicultural research associated with the commercial production of timber is concerned, this is handled by the Forest and Wildlife Service itself and the costs involved relate in large measure to the personnel involved. As regards timber technology research, however, my Department avail themselves of the services of the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards who are currently undertaking a number of research projects on behalf of the Forest and Wildlife Service aimed at promoting the use of Irish timber and the bulk of the funds provided for under subhead I relates to this exercise.

I have no doubt that timber production is an area which can offer increasing scope for import substitution. However, in the long run the successful production and harvesting of timber depends on the response from house builders and other buyers and users of timber. I would appeal to everyone connected with the trade to make an extra effort to do all they can to secure a larger market share for Irish timber with a view to safeguarding the long-term interests of the entire timber industry.

The Forest and Wildlife Service also keep in touch with new developments in the sphere of forestry research such as biomass, that is, renewable energy resources, either through conventional forestry or by way of growing specialised short-rotation energy crops using species such as poplars and alders. My Department are actively involved, in conjunction with other State agencies, in a number of EEC-assisted biomass projects, but developments on this front are as yet experimental and it would be premature to draw any firm conclusions from them.

The final subhead to which I would like to refer is subhead J—Appropriations-in-Aid. This, of course, relates to the revenue which is expected to accrue to the Forest and Wildlife Service in the course of the year to reduce the gross Vote. The expected aggregate income this year is £8,873,000 but, as Deputies will see, the vast bulk of this revenue derives from the sale of timber and more particularly sawlog. While the prevailing market for this sector is difficult due to a downturn in building activity, I am glad to see that, in the face of such difficulties, some firms have been imaginative enough to seek and obtain sizeable markets overseas for processed timber. Such initiatives are very commendable and have played a significant role in the countinuance of forestry activities and improving forest revenues.

Before concluding, I would like to mention the subject of forest fires. In recent years people have become very conscious of the potential of our forests in terms of recreation and amenity and also of their value in the sphere of wildlife conservation. For my part, it is indeed a pleasure to welcome the public to enjoy the many facilities and amenities available. However, what is sometimes not realised is the great vulnerability of the forests to the danger of fire, which is the major enemy of our plantations. Every year, many hundreds of hectares of forest, developed at heavy cost to the taxpayer, are destroyed by fire as a result of a moment's carelessness or wilful selfishness. With a little thought and foresight most of these fires could be avoided. While weather conditions in recent months have been such as to reduce the extent of fire hazard, I would appeal for continued vigilance by the public in the lighting of fires and the discarding of cigarettes and matches in the vicinity of forest properties.

I have now dealt with the Estimates for Fisheries and Forestry in considerable detail. I commend both Estimates for approval and I look forward to comments from all sides of the House.

I am glad of this opportunity to take part in the debate on the Estimates for the Department of Fisheries and Forestry. In relation to fisheries, while development has shown considerable expansion over the past five years, and the evidence is there to show where that expansion has taken place, nevertheless we on this side of the House believe that the industry has not reached its maximum capacity and has not developed to its full potential. There are many areas in which the industry can be assisted by the State to enable it to reach its maximum potential and make its full contribution to the national economy.

We welcome the completion of the Common Fisheries Policy Agreement which has been adopted by the Community. It has been the subject of so much deliberation and discussion for a long time. While not being totally satisfied with the outcome, we feel that it can now form the basis of a sound national policy. This is where I must be slightly critical of the present administration in that there is not, to date, any evidence from the Government of a clear-cut, defined policy in relation to fishery development, and sea fisheries in particular, which would indicate clearly and spell out definitely and conclusively how the opportunities, potential, investment and other areas in need of attention would be dealt with and how the sea fisheries potential can be maximised in the future.

The Common Fisheries Policy Agreement is the cornerstone of our fisheries policy as members of the Community and will be for the next 20 years. We on this side of the House — certainly during my time in office — felt that it was essential that alongside the CAP agreement which was the agreement for the development of fisheries in the Community, we needed to spell out our own clear-cut, definite national fisheries policy. In this regard what we have been getting from the Minister is mainly a continuation of the existing situation which had been all right in so far as it was applicable to the circumstances of the last ten or 15 years. However, the new opportunities emerging in the new European policy have great importance for us and the Government must immediately get down to the task of producing a national policy which will clearly show the direction for the industry and give guidance to those in the sectors of the fishing industry as to where they should make their investment, what activities they should engage in and the opportunities, possibilities and dangers in the future. As is well known in the House, there are some threatening signs on the horizon in relation to fish stocks, where there is need for caution, care, consideration, proper management and conservation policies to go alongside the policy of exploiting the potential. In this way, we will get the full benefit for the industry and the community generally which our fisheries can provide.

The importance of the industry and its contribution to the national economy have not been fully recognised. Its development is vital, especially to the social and economic development of the coastal regions. The fishing industry has a far greater significance to the Irish economy than the fishing sectors in the majority of the other member states in the Community and figures and statistics are available which will bear that out. The development of the industry can have far-reaching effects on the social and economic structure of the south-west, the west and the north-west regions and present significant job-creating opportunities, as well as preserving the present fabric of the industry and the existing jobs in it.

That is why I must be critical of the Government decision to cut back on the allocation for harbour development. The failure of the Government to recognise the importance of the development of our harbours, by reducing the present Estimate by over £1 million, is a retrograde and most undesirable step. The risk involved in this short-sighted policy is a risk which the industry cannot afford at this time. As a matter of extreme urgency, we need to complete the development of the five major fishery harbour centres. Some of them are now at an advanced stage and some are at planning stage. Work has been done on most of them. We must push ahead with the development of these five major harbour centres. No industry can prosper without the necessary infrastructure. The decision was a major blow and will be felt most severely in the small fishery harbour centres. As Minister I felt there was need for special attention in these areas. Assistance should be available for them through the Regional Fund of the EEC.

Many of the minor fishery harbour centres were developed at enormous cost years ago, some during times of famine and recession. They have not been attended to over the years and many are in a state of disrepair and collapse. I am thinking of harbours such as Clogherhead in County Louth and Doolin Pier in my own constituency. It is necessary to complete the developments in the five major fishery harbour centres. It is also necessary to undertake a programme of repair and investment in small harbours which will enable them to be a backup to the major centres.

There are a number of problems in the fishing industry. The decision to curtail finance was a damaging one and a retrograde step. It is essential in view of the completion of the Common Fisheries Policy and the new confidence that there is in the industry to have investment in harbours, training, research, development and in all areas to enable the fishing industry to expand. There have been problems which have caused concern to the organisation representing the industry. There is need for urgent action to deal with these.

In recent months the weather has caused serious hardship for fishermen. While we cannot blame the Government for that, some consideration should be given to the establishment of a hardship fund similar to that made available in certain cases to the farming community — for example, if they lose their herd through animal disease. A fisherman can lose his livelihood due to bad weather conditions. It is important that we consider the establishment of such a fund which would be availed of only in extreme circumstances.

I am critical of the Government's decision to cut the subsidy to BIM. Anyone who has an interest in the industry knows the position in relation to the repayment of loans fishermen received for their boats. Some fishermen have been doing reasonably well but many find it difficult to meet loan repayments. In some cases boats have been repossessed. Many small boat owners are afraid that their boats will be repossessed. I should like an assurance from the Minister that before any action of this nature is taken there will be consultation between the fishermen and their organisation to see what can be done. The necessary assistance should be given to them to enable them to overcome their difficulties. In industry we have grant aid facilities available to help it meet changing demands. The necessary finance should be put aside to help fishermen who are in difficulty.

Most Deputies who are familiar with the industry know that one of the major problems has been increasing fuel costs. It is essential that the subsidisation of fuel for fishermen should continue. There are indications of a reduction in the price of oil but there is a feeling that the full reduction will not be passed on to the fishermen. We need to look at this area.

We must be very conscious of the need to invest in training and education. Gear and equipment are much more sophisticated than ever before and we have a changed pattern of fishing. It is essential that we invest heavily in training and utilise, if necessary, some of the funds available to the Youth Employment Agency to assist the Fishery Vote. We must train skippers and young people. Excellent work has been done in the fishing schools and by the mobile unit operated by BIM. Nevertheless, much more could be done and there could be greater investment. Much more in the way of funds is essential if we are to exploit fully the possibilities in this area and if we are to train the young people entering the industry who are looking forward to a secure future.

A very definite commitment and a decisive strategy are required in the whole area of marketing. When I was involved in the Department I visited Egypt, a visit that was criticised by some people at the time, for the purpose of endeavouring to open up markets with the Egyptians at a time when markets in other areas were under pressure. There are possibilities there and these must be exploited. I am aware that some fish has been exported already to Egypt. Given a proper co-ordinated approach involving the industry at all levels — the catching, the processing, the marketing levels — and above all in consulation with the industry and with the help and guidance of the experts in the Department and in BIM, it should be possible to devise a marketing strategy whereby we would be capable of marketing all the fish we can produce.

One of the essentials in the marketing area is the maximum co-ordination and consolidation of the various strands in the industry. The catching sector must be in communication with and involved with the processing sector while there must be liaison also with people in the marketing field. I had a clear indication from the Egyptian Government that they would favour a State-to-State marketing arrangement which would involve fairly substantial quantities of fish, quantities perhaps that we would not be able to meet. They felt that they needed the security of a country-to-country arrangement but there would seem not to be the legal framework here to enable us to do that and to exploit fully the opportunities of these markets. Perhaps the Minister would consider that area to see if the State might become more involved in the industry in ensuring that arrangements can be negotiated with the countries in which there are markets for our fish. This would encourage people to become involved in the business.

There are some other aspects of the fishing industry which are very important, too. In regard to inland fisheries, for instance, there is need for closer co-operation and for more consultation between the central fisheries authority and the regional boards. The establishment of the regional boards was a welcome move but there is a need for more co-operation between them and the central board and particularly between the staffs of the two. We cannot afford the luxury of different bodies engaging in their own particular developments. The central and the regional boards must be involved jointly in the protection, the development and the exploitation of inland fisheries. We have not pushed ahead quickly enough with the creation of proper working conditions for the staffs of the regional boards. For many years the situation in this regard has been haphazard with confusion generally as between one board area and another. One would have hoped that as a result of the establishment of the regional boards we would now have had all these matters regarding employment conditions, pension schemes and so on sorted out.

It is desirable that there be some co-ordinated approach between the central board and the regional boards in the whole matter of staffing and in the provision of the facilities that are so essential in the fight against the various hazards facing inland fisheries. I welcome the recent speeches of the Minister and of the Minister of State in relation to the stamping out of illegal activities, regardless of which quarter these emanate from. We have heard time and again about the illegal activities of foreign fishermen but much of the time we hear little about the illegal activities of some of our own fishermen. In fairness to the Minister, he has spoken out against such activities and in the past few days has acted to ensure that at least the mouth of the Shannon estuary will be kept clear of illegal nets this season. When I was in office many of the Shannon fishermen sought to have me removed for my alleged failure to deal with the problem, but we dealt with it within the limits of the resources available then. It is necessary to have an almost full-time presence on the mouth of an important estuary such as Shannon at peak times and especially when the salmon are running. We must keep the estuaries free of illegal nets and leave the waters free for the salmon to get to the higher reaches. These illegal activities put in jeopardy not only the livelihood of those involved in inland fisheries but also of the many people involved legitimately in drift netting in the sea. We can no longer afford this type of illegal activity.

I welcome also the action being taken in relation to the continuation of pollution control in Lough Sheelin. Many of those involved in fisheries have been concerned about the situation there but recent development indicate that it is improving. Nevertheless, we must express regret that adequate finance is not being allocated to research and development generally. It is regrettable that at a time when there is a need for as much research as possible the Government are cutting back on small research schemes such as the one in Carlow. This is a short-sighted policy and one that will not help in the development of inland fisheries, an area in which there is great potential.

Before concluding I should like to refer to some important developments in the area of forestry. In the past 60 years the taxpayers have invested about £400 million in this industry but it is a national waste, if not a disgrace, that one-third of the timber produced by the forestry service has remained unsold in recent years because of a bias in favour of imported timber. The saw-milling sector have experienced difficulties due to a decline in the building industry but this is the sector that have suffered most from the unnecessary and undesirable importation of foreign timber. While they have been experiencing great difficulties in recent years, we have been importing massive quantities of timber. We must utilise fully the timber resources of the State. We cannot afford to be putting so much money into timber growing if we do not intend utilising the product fully and to the maximum advantage of the State and utilising it also from the point of view of job potential. Timber can have a major regional impact and can also have job creation potential, especially in the west.

It is unsatisfactory that the saw-milling sector is losing jobs while at the same time timber is being imported in ever-increasing quantities. When I was in the Department I sought to indicate that it would be possible to index the price of sawlog in the Irish market to international prices. If we could reduce timber prices for the industry here in line with or below international timber prices we could create job opportunities while exploiting our resources. The Department's position is that they must get a return on investment and raise the necessary funds from the sales of timber to enable the afforestation programme to continue and expand, but the time has come when decisions must be made as to whether the tendering policy which keeps the price at a very high level, which often does not relate to international prices, is the right course. The Minister must consider whether it might be wiser to reduce timber prices to the native saw-milling industry to a level comparable with or below import prices. This would enable the industry to create more jobs and encourage far greater use of the timber resources which we will have in abundance in coming years.

When Minister I reviewed some of the schemes in operation and we produced a document outlining the possibilities for the timber industry. I should like this document to be published so that the general public would be aware of the possibilities and opportunities in this area.

It is important to maintain the State planting programme and to provide sufficient funds for land acquisition for further planting. We should also encourage as far as possible private planting schemes of the type which have been working very successfully in my constituency. We should expand the sawmill sector and make concessions to those who are experiencing financial difficulties. It is necessary to work out in consultation with the interests involved in the industry a policy to exploit to the fullest the potential of our State forests.

Wildlife conservation has not received the attention it deserves and we must increase further the allocation in order to continue the work of surveying and the acquisition of wildlife habitats. This should not be regarded as a luxury even in the present difficult economic climate. A site in the Burren was examined by the Department with a view to purchase and use as a nature reserve. Some allocation for this should be provided, possibly from the subhead for land acquisition.

We need more time to deal in detail with fisheries policy and the expansion of the fishing industry and we hope for an early opportunity to have a detailed discussion on the common fisheries policy and the national plan to exploit our fisheries.

I congratulate the Minister and the Minister of State on their appointments. The congratulations will have to stop there. In BIM we have the most archaic semi-State body this country has seen for a long time. It reminds me of the famous short story told by a politician about a political party. He said they were a banana Government — first they were green, then they became yellow and eventually they curled up and became rotten. That is the way it is with BIM.

I cannot share the optimism expressed by the Minister and Deputy Daly. I live amongst fishermen and I know their anxiety. There is an air of gloom in the fishing industry. As recently as Wednesday, 27 April I tabled a question to the Minister asking the number of boats repossessed by BIM between 1 January 1980 and 31 March 1983, the number of such boats sold up to 31 March 1983, the profit or loss on the sale of those boats and the loss to the Exchequer on boats repossessed. The answer makes shocking reading. In those three years 20 vessels were repossessed by BIM. Sixteen boats were sold, seven of them for cash while nine were reissued to other fishermen. What happened to the four missing boats? There was a loss of £1.5 million on the sale of those boats and another loss to the Exchequer of £1.5 million. How can an industry thrive in such conditions? Every fisherman, whether he has a 30-foot launch or a trawler of 110 feet is hounded by demand notes from BIM, threatening him with repossession of his boat unless he pays up. The Exchequer lost £3 million on the repossession of those boats.

One can see where BIM have gone wrong. There is no practical fisherman of rural origin on the executive side of the board. They are staggering from one crisis to another. Why? It is because they do not know what is happening around them. I, aided and abetted by Deputy Gallagher, brought to the notice of the Minister for Fisheries, and the Department that Spanish trawlers would land fish at Cappagh in County Clare. Of course, the Department had never heard of it until early that day. At the same time, not many yards from this House, a press interview was given by the sponsors of that project who said unequivocally that they had been in contact with the Department about the project and they had given it their blessing.

Who is codding whom? Morning after morning on the Order of Business Deputy Gallagher and I have asked the Minister when he will bring in legislation about third country trawlers flying the flag of convenience coming in here. He said today he would bring it in the near future. We have had that story from both the Taoiseach and the Minister for the last six weeks. It is about time we said something about it on the floor of this House.

Is it not a fact that a number of those trawlers are already in this country landing at different ports with Spanish crews. Yet another organ of the Government, the Department of Labour, have never insisted that these fishermen should have work permits to land in this country. Why were the Department of Fisheries not there? Why did their officials or officials of BIM close their eyes to this carry-on throughout the past two years?

As I said at the outset, I have met many fishermen deeply concerned about their present position. They know that if the Spaniards get a licence to come in here it will be the end of fishing as we know it off the west coast. It is very significant that the fishermen of this country would never see the sprats these Spanish trawlers have in their boxes. Can we get an explanation of how this situation has been allowed to develop and continue during a number of years? At least ten Spanish trawlers can fish at will off our coasts and the Department of Labour do not insist that their crews have work permits. Would any other section of the community tolerate such blackguardism? No, only the fishermen who have to get up at 5 a.m., face into a south-westerly or north-easterly wind and will not be seen again until 48 hours later. They have no one to fight their case.

In my opinion BIM have outlived their usefulness. Yet they boast here of our record catches for 1982. Did they tell us how much of that catch was dumped or how much was sprayed with red or purple dye, as the case may be, and dragged around the coast to fishmeal factories? It seems that if fish does not reach a certain price it is sprayed by an official of the Department, taken to a fishmeal factory and along 50 or 60 or perhaps 200 miles you will see nothing but sprayed fish which have fallen from the lorries on the sides of the main roads. Yet we boast here tonight about our record catches.

Why has all this happened? It is because BIM opted out of the marketing of fish when they should have stayed in. When fish is not properly marketed where will it go? There are now a few fly-by-night cowboys reaping the fruits of the sea and paying their own price to the fishermen. There is now a monopoly not only in the Dublin market but in other ports throughout the country. What redress had the fishermen of Howth three weeks ago when their fish were purchased by cheques which bounced? Who is to give those people satisfaction?

I could go on for hours about the failures of BIM. The Minister came here tonight to tell us he is content with the state of the industry. I humbly suggest to him that the sooner he gets rid of those pinstriped, city oriented executives the better. They may be good men in their own right but as far as the practicalities of fishing are concerned out they should go.

Even though I am cynical about advisers — and God knows we have enough of them here tonight — I suggest to the Minister that his Department could do with a breath of fresh air. When the Department were established in 1977 they were the cinderella of the Department of Agriculture. The time has come for the Minister and the Minister of State to take a close look at the operations of the Department of Fisheries. In 1977 one would have thought that the new Department would have put some kind of stranglehold on BIM and their operations. But no, the board took off hell for leather to build a palace in Dún Laoghaire which is still unoccupied. How much is it costing the State to finance that palace every year? There is more money going to maintain that premises than any of us could imagine. I tabled a question last week to the Minister for Fisheries asking him if furniture had been taken out of this palace recently. The reply I got was to the effect that it was never refurbished but a robbery had taken place and radiators were taken. What have we come to? We were not told what the radiators cost or how they were stolen. Of course, mar a deir Deputy Denis Gallagher, sin ceist eile.

The answer to the problem of the fishing industry is first to set up a fish marketing board. That board should consist of people experienced in marketing at home and abroad and they should be practical Irishmen. Up to recently—this is no reflection on Deputy Daly—there were two Fianna Fáil Senators on the board. It could happen that they could have been Fine Gael Senators. I do not hold it against the gentlemen who are friends of mine but I should like to know how it is that Members of the Oireachtas are not allowed sit on the board of any other State-sponsored body. There is a story in Kerry that if one wanted to get anything it was necessary first of all to apply to the Fianna Fáil Cumann who would forward the request to the Fianna Fáil Cumann in BIM. Of course, I did not believe that at all.

Genuine fishermen have little or no say in the fishing industry. Deputies Denis Gallagher, Pat Cope Gallagher and Daly have something to contribute as far as the fishing industry is concerned. I have had informal discussions with those Deputies in the House and we came to the conclusion that we could not get anywhere. If BIM can borrow money from the Exchequer with repayments to be made over 20 years I should like to know why a trawler owner must repay a loan in 12 years or, in the case of a secondhand craft, over ten years. Why not give the same concessions to the fishermen as the State give to BIM?

The Minister, and the Minister of State must be delighted that my criticism will not appear in tomorrow's newspapers and that very few will buy a copy of the Official Report to read it.

Buy The Kerryman.

It goes deeper than that, I should like to remind the boy from Wexford. Is the Minister aware of the anxiety in the household of a trawler owner when a boat is repossessed? There should be an advisory or rescue body, like Fóir Teoranta, in the Department of Fisheries and Forestry to help fishermen who reach the stage that they can no longer meet their commitments. If one purchases a boat valued at £600,000 one must pay back £180,000 per year. To break that down into simple figures it means a boat owner must pay £3,500 per week. If the weather is bad the boat is idle and the boat will also be idle if there is a breakdown or if one of the crew suffers a bereavement. The Department should have in their team a person to advise fishermen. We must also consider other charges such as fuel and insurance. I have no doubt that if we include them the cost would work out at about £4,000 per week. If a boat breaks down and must be removed to a boatyard the owner will face an astronomical bill and at the same time must meet the cost of £4,000 per week. Deputy Daly was correct when he said that there should be some compassion to help those unfortunate fishermen who find themselves in this situation.

I should like to pose a number of questions to the Minister and BIM. I notice Members are looking at the document I have but I can assure the Minister that it is not a Government leak. I should like to know what opportunities exist for further development and expansion in the fishing industry. What are the opportunities in the export market for that industry for each major variety of fish? What type of product should we process? What indications are now apparent in international markets? How will aquaculture progress here in years to come? What efforts are we making to expand that aspect of the industry? Has any official of the Department carried out a survey of the rivers flowing into small harbours around the coast and marked out pilot areas? What precaution will the Government take against foreign trawlers who fish 12 miles outside our limits, those whose traditional rights may be between six and 12 miles at certain times of the year? How many inspections took place of those trawlers in the last 12 months? Had those who carried out inspections special clothing to go into the deep freeze compartments to see if those boats had exceeded their quota. Is this pirating and plundering of our seas going to continue unchecked by the Department? Let us talk about the illegal salmon fisherman. If he lands his boat his catch is taken.

There should be a monitoring system of trawlers with freezing facilities. These trawlers should be inspected at least every evening when they are fishing off our coasts. Has anyone ever heard of an arrest by one of our naval vessels of a Spanish, Bulgarian, French or Belgian trawler because they had exceeded their quota and had frozen their catch? Have there been any prosecutions in our courts for such an offence? Do not tell me this is not happening. These boats may only catch a quota and only a certain number of licences are issued, but who checks our seas? There is no point saying a helicopter flies over Dingle Bay, up to Loop Head off Malin Head once in a while and takes a look at the Aran Islands. Everybody knows what is happening. Once these boats are so many miles out to sea the licence is passed to another trawler which comes and fishes in our waters.

It would have been uneconomic for that Spanish trawler to go back to port because she would lose so many days fishing. Why do you think the Spanish invasion is about to take place? These Spanish trawlers, English registered, flying the Union Jack, were told to leave England and Wales. Special legislation was introduced in the House of Commons and they sat until 3 a.m. Here we are, months later, and what are we doing? We are about to bring in legislation. We have been about to bring in legislation for the last ten weeks and we have not seen it yet. How much more can our fishermen take? There is no excuse for inefficiency. I realise all Departments must see the heads of a Bill before it can be printed, but if any Department is holding up this legislation the Minister should tell us.

The Minister said he was going to set up a fish marketing board. How far has he got? How many meetings were held? Who was consulted? What action does the Minister propose to take? There is no point in our fishermen catching fish if they cannot sell it. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle lives in the historic town of Nenagh, but how often can he buy fresh fish there? I know he cannot answer now, but perhaps he will tell me later. In Killybegs, Dingle and Castletownbere the blue dye or the red dye is spread on the fish which is taken out to sea and dumped unceremoniously. Where is it all going to end?

Unless there is a radical approach to the fishing industry, unless the Minister drastically overhauls BIM from top to bottom, there is no future for the fishing industry. That makes some of us very sad. For the person who comes from the west or south-west coast and eats salt and spuds for dinner, with a little fish, five days out of seven, there is little hope left. It was the currach, the launch, the trawler or the lobster pot, that helped the hardy men of the west to survive.

With the new dictatorial policies of BIM, particularly since the Minister came into power and this harassment started, all these fishermen are living in fear that they will lose their boats. It is no wonder fishermen are lost at sea. Some of them have to take chances they never took before to keep a roof over their heads, to pay the mortgage and to keep their children at school. That is reality. Because of our geographic location big industry is pie in the sky as far as we are concerned. We depend on natural amenities — the land and the sea. Has the new chief executive officer of BIM ever visited Dingle, Baltimore or Castletownbere? We get the feeling that we are dots on the map and a decision is taken when he has studied the statistics and the figures.

The Minister has a golden opportunity to take a hard close look at the fishing industry. If he wants the real facts I advise him that he will not get them in Hume House. He will not get them in Upper Merrion Street. He will not get them in Dún Laoghaire. He will get them in Castletownbere, Dingle, Killybegs, Achill Sound and from the fishermen on the Aran Islands. They are the men who will tell him in no uncertain terms how they feel about the fishing industry and the way they want it to evolve in the eighties.

The Minister is a west of Ireland man. He is new to the job. He has already started a process of communication with the fishermen in open public forum. I appeal to him to continue that on the west coast, on to Dungarvan, and all the way up to Arklow, Howth and Louth. He will then learn what is wrong with the fishing industry. He will learn about the fly-by-nights, the people who make a quick buck out of the fishing industry and renege on it when the chips were down.

I do not subscribe to the view that we should have five major harbours. If there is only a limited amount of cash available for harbour development, any harbour with a tradition in fishing and a minimum number of boats registered should get a slice of the cake. I can speak at length about my own harbour, Dingle Harbour. The last time anything was done to Dingle Harbour was in 1972 when it was dredged. Believe it or not, the dredger arrived in a juggernaut, went into the sea in Cromane and floated up Dingle Bay into Dingle Harbour. That is the last time we saw a dredger in Dingle Harbour.

I often wonder who advises the powers that be on what harbours should be dredged and what gear should be renovated. I ask myself: Is it BIM? Then I say to myself: "What do they know about fishing?" If they knew anything at all about fishing they would know we had a natural amenity out there under our nose waiting to be developed, waiting to be cultivated, whether for drift netting or for trawling. It took the Dutch to arrive here and teach us about mariculture.

If BIM could afford to lose £3 million of the taxpayers' money on repossessed boats in a little over two years, what are they about to embark on judging about all the six day notices and five day notices the fishermen around the coast have got? If this debate does nothing other than highlight that situation it will be worth-while. We were told in response to Dáil questions that of the 20 boats which were repossessed nine were sold back to Irish fishermen. Where did another seven go? That is the question I pose to the Minister. Were seven trawlers sold to another boatyard in this country, refurbished and then sold abroad? I would like the Minister to listen to me when I am saying this.

I am very concerned that there is a nice cosy little racket going on. These trawlers were repossessed from Irish fishermen and sold abroad, and yet we are reliably informed that some of those fishermen who were losing their boats were offered a better price by people in Scotland, Wales and on the Continent, and An Bord Iascaigh Mhara would not sanction the sale. I hope that in the Minister's reply he will be very forthcoming. If we stop this cosy little racket that is going on in the repossession of boats this debate will be worthwhile.

In 1979 I spoke at length in a debate here about the sale of our boatyards to private interests. BIM did everything in their power to blackmail me because I had the courage of my convictions and spoke out in this House. It is a peculiar twist of fate that we are discussing fisheries here tonight, and yesterday one of the proprietors of the boatyards went to the High Court seeking an injunction against BIM because they had led him up the garden path. He was not the first Corkman to be led up the garden path by BIM. The House can take it from me that he will not be the last either if BIM continue as they are going. It is strange that in the course of the affidavit made by that Corkman in the High Court yesterday, he said BIM had a vendetta against him.

Is the Deputy talking about an identifiable case?

It is in the papers.

It would be as well if the Deputy did not refer to specific court cases.

In the course of a very thoughtful and considered contribution which I am making here tonight, I am pointing out the inadequacies of BIM in the seventies and eighties. I said it was a peculiar twist of fate that we had banner headlines in the papers today—another man conned by BIM. Deputy Sheehan knows the man I am talking about, as decent a man as every wore shoe leather.

That language is probably too strong also.

Debate adjourned.
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